This analysis is very fair. But I can tell you, as someone who is a United Methodist and has worked as a musician in the UMC for the past sixteen years, even though this is not a definitive win for the more progressive among us, it is a step in the right direction. If nothing else, I feel like it makes some people, actual people I know in my own church, feel heard for the first time. Did we already lose several conservative folks? Yes, we did (many of them from my own choir that I direct). But if these small changes make us a safer, if smaller, community for everyone, I'll take it.
Christianity is the most factionalized religion on the planet. Nothing else even comes close and the splintering continues apace. I will never accept the idea the Bible is the word of God, because I do not think the genuine word of God would ever be subject to debate. It's a good thing this faction of the UMC decided to join the twenty-first century. That said, at the end of the day I don't care what this or any other church does, as long as they stay out of government, and the public schools. Not to mention they need to stay far away from me.
Oraxx, I apologize in advance for being arcane but an attorney called me about a valuation problem while reading the article. The problem became very complex, had non-linear relationships and probable hidden variables. Explaining the thinking to a judge is highly problematic as they think only within the rubric of laws based upon precedence—a big weakness in the legal system IMO.
Similar concerns are there in predicting what will happen in the Methodist Church, what will happen to Christianity, what will happen to the USA. All so-called political, religious, historical experts can only provide linear forecast models in a world of chaos and complexity when in “reality” we just have to wait and see what happens. This is analogous to a wave function collapse when a particle is measured.
Nevertheless I have a prediction. If we cannot abate bigotry and the influence of mythical gods, we probably will need to eventually to sit on the floor in upright position, spread our legs, bend over and kiss our sweet asses goodbye.
Yes, Christianity is very factionalized.....but it feels to me though that Islam is more factionalized. IDK....maybe not. It's impossible to keep track of all the Islamic sects. It's hard to keep track of the Christians too. Not that I think it's a race on who is most fractionalized, this is an obvious and predictable byproduct of man-made religion.
There's just 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 quite like being so rabidly devoted to hating someone that it isn't enough for you to just be 𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘰𝘸𝘦𝘥 to spread hate for them, not enough that your leaders won't even part their lips to scold you for it, but to insist that everyone else has to hate them just as much and as loudly as you do, or else you'll pack your bags and hit the road- 𝘢𝘯𝘥 pay through the teeth for the chance to do it.
TBH, I'm still not convinced the author's 'support' for LGB individuals isn't a PR move. 7 books and afterwards she tells us one of the main characters is gay. Another character who fairly obviously read as gay was explicitly made straight in the last movie.
And even though both were straight, I still think Harry and Ron should have gone to the Yuletide Ball together rather than involving the Patel sisters whom neither cared anything about.
Rowling is a gullible idiot to believe those TERF lies, rights are better when we ALL have them. And using 'feminism' to shit on others? They don't want equality, they want superiority.
Gee whiz, another Christian schism, which is likely to weaken both halves! And the UMC is sorta kinda in a way copping a clue nearly a decade after Obergefell v Hodges! Huzzah ... I think. Meanwhile, rational atheists have been backing the LGBTQ+ community for at least that long if not a whole lot longer.
I'd say, "Better late than never," but seriously, guys? You take THIS LONG to get with the program?
"If a social agenda becomes a driving force" the conservative social agenda is still a social agenda, and in fact is far more significant than the gay agenda they were always warning about, since the gay agenda is to be left alone to live life, but the "conservative" agenda is to force everyone to live the lives the conservatives see as appropriate.
Methodists never believed in inerrancy. I'm proud of the legacy UMC for repealing these hateful rules. Will it make a difference in their interaction with the outside world? I don't know, but I hope so. Unfortunately, my childhood church went with the bigots.
So a certain strain of Methodist thought the Bible was a work of man, fallable in interpretation and meaning and fact? That's one I haven't heard. Learn something new everyday.
Christian wishing and hoping for an immortal existence in heaven. With a god powerful enough to destroy that hope for those who wont fall in line with the divinely laid down rules. Fear of non-existence or torturous punishment to try and keep the congregants in line.
… "And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder
One of the four beasts saying,
'Come and see.' and I saw, and behold a white horse"
… There's a man goin' 'round takin' names
And he decides who to free and who to blame
Everybody won't be treated all the same
There'll be a golden ladder reachin' down
When the man comes around
… The hairs on your arm will stand up
At the terror in each sip and in each sup
Will you partake of that last offered cup
Or disappear into the potter's ground?
When the man comes around
… "And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked, and behold a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him" St. Cash
But years in exile, holding up in cave while filled with rage about the destruction can drive one mad OR spur one to write a prophesy using idiomatic images concerning gods vengeance on the Romans.
The madness still comes from all the religious leaders taking all the images as literal rather than metaphor.
I goofed on the Holly tune. I thought it was "Wishing" but the tune I had in my head was actually his song "Crying, Waiting, Hoping" (George Harrison and the Beatles covered that one. It had been in their repertoire in the early days).
You have sinned. You shall be sent to the fiery lakes of hell for making a mistake is a death warrant for Jehovah. That is unless Yu can ge into a Catholic Church soon enough to confess but more importantly provide your tithings. Jehovah always likes his tithings.
Any church that welcomes gay clergy and let's their gay clergy perform same sex weddings is a good church. I hope when the Catholic Church gets off their high horse((50% of Catholic priests don't keep their vow of Chastity and of that 50% at least 10% are gay if not more) then I will have some hope for the Catholic Church as well. I'm very close to severing all ties to the church I have loved and loved mainly for the mask it wears. Why should it matter in the least if churches have gay clergy?
The RCC pardoned Galileo in 1992, >350 years after the fact. If we take the 1970s as the start of gay rights hitting the mainstream social conscience, then you should look for them to admit they were wrong about gays sometime around 2330.
I was about nine months into my tour in Vietnam, and in a very dark place. What little faith I had left at that point was dangling by a thread when I went to church for the last time as any kind of believer. We listened to an idiot priest give us what we came to call the, 'Kill a Commie for Christ' pep talk. According to him we had been chosen to defend mother church against the godless. All we wanted to do was survive and go home. I know I wasn't the only one to walk away from the church that day, never to return.
I’m also, Viet Nam era vet as a navy corpsman. I’ve seen a lot of “patriotic” death. Fortunately for me, in the big picture of my life, I had already left religion at the age of ten. What you wrote reminded me of how the Vatican supported the Nazis in WWII because they were fighting the godless communists.
As Shakespeare said, “adversity acquaints one with strange bedfellows.”
Don't hold your breath. It took the catholic church about 700 centuries to "understand" their god was against married priests. Which led to a major schism with some Eastern Europe churches whose god told them "Nah, marriage is the way". christian should try to worship Loki he is more consistent in his inconsistency.
Yes a thousand years ago there were married priests but those married priests were giving their sons church property so the Catholic Church said we need the money more than you priests need to have normal sex lives. So they banned Catholic priests from marrying to keep church property for the Church. You can't ban a normal human function.
By the time the Catholic Church decides to lose their homophobia, their parishioners will consist of little more than geriatrics who will die off and not be replaced (knock wood). Social change is leaving the RCC behind, and they are too in love with their doctrine and dogma to be able to catch up.
The "look," such as it is, is holding up less and less well as time passes, and the attendance at mass is taking the same nosedive that other churches are experiencing, yet the RCC refuses to take the hint.
One can hope they're all headed for oblivion, but I still suspect that process will be glacially slow.
And there it is again, wishing and hoping. We do not weave tangled webs only when we deceive. Lige is a tangled web woven in a state of chaos and complexity.
I said ages ago there would be schism – but that's just Christianity, if they don't schis over one thing they'll do it over another. But it's a good thing. Lets you know exactly who the evil bastards are.
The Methodist Church by me growing up seemed like it had nice people. I even went a few times with a friend in my quest to see If Religion was Right for Me (spoiler: nope). I don’t remember what was said one time, but I do remember being turned off by what I think was some bigoted remark and I was like wut?
"The United Methodist Church reversed its ban on gay clergy. Will it matter?"
Yes and no in varying degrees. There are the small pictures, the wider views, and the largest view. To individual clerics who are gay, it will matter a lot. To members who have strong opinions about LGBTQ issues, positive or negative, it will matter strongly to moderately. To the UMC as a whole it won't matter that much since they already initiated the process of change years ago.
In the biggest picture, the direction of American Christianity and the direction of religion in general worldwide, it won't make a damn bit of difference at all. It will all continue to decline.
Churches and fleets of churches focus on their particular policies and practices as the reason for their shrinking membership because those are things that they might be able to correct.
But those are the visible, small-picture things that might precipitate people leaving religion. In the background, in the big picture, society is steadily losing interest in supernatural things. It won't matter how well churches and religious institutions "clean up their act" about their bigotries. People will continue to leave because they just don't believe as broadly or as strongly in magical beings, magical powers, and magical things.
It's like churches and religions are boats on a lake. They try to repair their leaks and tattered sails, they change their courses, they form fleets or break out on their own, but meanwhile THE LAKE IS DRYING UP, and they have no control over that. The interest and belief in supernaturalism is the water, and I think in about a century the boats will be left sitting on dry mud.
I sort of feel like this is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound in some ways. Not only is it too little too late, it's not really addressing the issue at hand in an effective and productive way. Even so, I'm glad that more of the LGBTQ community at least has somewhere to go for their religious needs if necessary.
To me, the real issue churches are struggling with is what to do when one group of faithful wants to hate another group of faithful and both groups attend the same services and functions. This isn't a debate the Christian bible ever addresses well or directly in my opinion, and as a result churches often find themselves ripping apart over these things. A minor theological debate this is not; no what we're seeing here is more of a diplomatic failure because most of the problem stems from an inability to compromise in any form.
This decision doesn't change that. Sure, it's great that LGBTQ folks now have another option in their religious practice, and I'm glad for them to have that now. I just don't see it addressing the real problem successfully in the long term.
First, Rev. Vicki, thanks for understanding, evolving, and repenting. Here's some advice from an atheist.
I just love the ignorance of a certain class of so called Christian, always trying to find in god's holy words the justification for their own bad behavior, using their bible as a weapon against others they either dont like, or don't approve of, or both.
One might wonder why there is a UNITED Methodist church these days. Could it be that Methodism had a little schism about 175 years ago over whether it was proper to own another human being, to be able to destroy his family because he was property, to murder him with impunity because he really wasn't quite a full human being? and didn't the bible beaters have god's holy word to justify this?
According to the bible beaters below, god's word never changes. Of course it does and has, many times, as soon as it becomes expedient for it to do so. Well, actually, gods word doesn't change, WE DO. we become better than god's word, which is why we don't burn witches, own slaves, or engage in a 2000 year old pogrom against the Christ killers.
We just haven't yet reached that point over gay people, but we're working on it. The real truth of religious prejudice is this: god's word is what a certain class of so called Christian uses to justify what cannot be justified by any other means...
Including gods word.
What your beloved methodist church needs is a good old fashioned schism. What is holding you back are the african and other backwards, third world churches. They will continue to hold back progress in YOUR church as long as they can, as they have in the episcopal church. And all over a few verses that they were taught by their colonial masters to mean one thing they clearly don't mean.
The united Methodist church became united post slavery, if I recall. They weren't so united before, when the argument was over slavery and the inherent worth of black people as human beings. That's what makes the African contingent so mind numbingly obtuse in their opposition. You're not going to change them, not in this lifetime.
By avoiding the schism, you are bowing to the spirit of racism that informed your last schism, except that this time, it's homobigotry, not racial bigotry. By avoiding this schism, all you are saying is what the Catholics say about defending child predators-- avoiding a scandal in the church is much more important than doing what you know to be morally correct.
So just do it. Have a good schism, cry a little bit, and then get on with the job of opposing yet one more human prejudice that has been given some sort of sanctity as god's word, or sincere religious belief, or whatever it is they are saying now...
There are no maps of world equations, differing from one region to the next. You can have a state flower or bird, but there aren’t any state chemical elements. You will not find an asexual astronomy, a Baptist biology, a capitalist chemistry, an English engineering, a mammalian math, or a feminist physics. There’s only one worldwide version of each, because they’re all based on FACTS, not accidents of birth or matters of opinion.
Conversely, religion is nothing BUT opinions, no facts involved, which is why anybody’s word on religion is just as good as anyone else’s (to wit, no good at all). And, since there’s no way of resolving doctrinal disputes, we have (no kidding) 45,000 different sects of Christianity alone, more added weekly.
This analysis is very fair. But I can tell you, as someone who is a United Methodist and has worked as a musician in the UMC for the past sixteen years, even though this is not a definitive win for the more progressive among us, it is a step in the right direction. If nothing else, I feel like it makes some people, actual people I know in my own church, feel heard for the first time. Did we already lose several conservative folks? Yes, we did (many of them from my own choir that I direct). But if these small changes make us a safer, if smaller, community for everyone, I'll take it.
Good. Seriously. Good. But this is not a binary situation. “A step in the right direction” AND “too little too late” can both be true.
Yahweh cheats. Remember Jacob?
Jacob was his nickname. It said Israel on his Driver's License.
And show their commitment to being a person of faith by claiming the contenders are really wrestling.
Christianity is the most factionalized religion on the planet. Nothing else even comes close and the splintering continues apace. I will never accept the idea the Bible is the word of God, because I do not think the genuine word of God would ever be subject to debate. It's a good thing this faction of the UMC decided to join the twenty-first century. That said, at the end of the day I don't care what this or any other church does, as long as they stay out of government, and the public schools. Not to mention they need to stay far away from me.
Oraxx, I apologize in advance for being arcane but an attorney called me about a valuation problem while reading the article. The problem became very complex, had non-linear relationships and probable hidden variables. Explaining the thinking to a judge is highly problematic as they think only within the rubric of laws based upon precedence—a big weakness in the legal system IMO.
Similar concerns are there in predicting what will happen in the Methodist Church, what will happen to Christianity, what will happen to the USA. All so-called political, religious, historical experts can only provide linear forecast models in a world of chaos and complexity when in “reality” we just have to wait and see what happens. This is analogous to a wave function collapse when a particle is measured.
Nevertheless I have a prediction. If we cannot abate bigotry and the influence of mythical gods, we probably will need to eventually to sit on the floor in upright position, spread our legs, bend over and kiss our sweet asses goodbye.
Yes, Christianity is very factionalized.....but it feels to me though that Islam is more factionalized. IDK....maybe not. It's impossible to keep track of all the Islamic sects. It's hard to keep track of the Christians too. Not that I think it's a race on who is most fractionalized, this is an obvious and predictable byproduct of man-made religion.
It is. The first factions in early Islam were more about politics, who will be Muhammad successor, than the religion itself.
Agreed! 💯
How many more schisms before they drop the U in UMC?
🎶Who's the leader of the club
That's made for UMC?
B-i-g o-t-r y can't you see? 🎵
Followed by a fine game of bingotry.
Considering how many churches have "First" in their name despite having no such claim of priority, I somehow doubt they'll bother.
Religious groups have been schisming forever. A feature of any human social group. How many more? The constant is change for better or worse.
That's why you need to watch where you step.
There's just 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 quite like being so rabidly devoted to hating someone that it isn't enough for you to just be 𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘰𝘸𝘦𝘥 to spread hate for them, not enough that your leaders won't even part their lips to scold you for it, but to insist that everyone else has to hate them just as much and as loudly as you do, or else you'll pack your bags and hit the road- 𝘢𝘯𝘥 pay through the teeth for the chance to do it.
That's some 𝘴𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘶𝘴 commitment, right there.
The more they hate, the harder they fight those desires in their heart.
Religions prolly got their start when someone hated something and claimed some god told him to hate it.
https://www.zentaur.org/Pride/ProudToBeYou.webp
Gimme the atheist over the religionista every time.
"Daniel Radcliffe 'Will Continue to Support the Rights of All LGBTQ People' "
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daniel-radcliffe-continue-support-rights-161640945.html
The guy who played the title character continuing to understand the message of the story better than the twit who wrote it does...
TBH, I'm still not convinced the author's 'support' for LGB individuals isn't a PR move. 7 books and afterwards she tells us one of the main characters is gay. Another character who fairly obviously read as gay was explicitly made straight in the last movie.
And even though both were straight, I still think Harry and Ron should have gone to the Yuletide Ball together rather than involving the Patel sisters whom neither cared anything about.
Rowling is a gullible idiot to believe those TERF lies, rights are better when we ALL have them. And using 'feminism' to shit on others? They don't want equality, they want superiority.
https://images.app.goo.gl/4V5HovWpgxjzsb8d9
Gee whiz, another Christian schism, which is likely to weaken both halves! And the UMC is sorta kinda in a way copping a clue nearly a decade after Obergefell v Hodges! Huzzah ... I think. Meanwhile, rational atheists have been backing the LGBTQ+ community for at least that long if not a whole lot longer.
I'd say, "Better late than never," but seriously, guys? You take THIS LONG to get with the program?
Progress in a socially and mentally healthy direction at least.
"If a social agenda becomes a driving force" the conservative social agenda is still a social agenda, and in fact is far more significant than the gay agenda they were always warning about, since the gay agenda is to be left alone to live life, but the "conservative" agenda is to force everyone to live the lives the conservatives see as appropriate.
The conservatives don't think of their agenda as an agenda; they think it is "the natural way of things".
Some biologists may have a word or two to say about "the natural way of things". One of my favorite story
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thedodo.com/amphtml/in-the-wild/bald-eagle-trio-incubate-eggs-at-illinois-refuge
I love this so much. Thanks for sharing.
As an old friend used to say, "Whatever floats their boat".
So much for inerrancy...
It is, schism is the oldest christian tradition. Even older than Pagan bashing.
You can't bash the pagans until you outnumber them. Otherwise you might lose.
Bashing from the safety of their bully pulpit.
Methodists never believed in inerrancy. I'm proud of the legacy UMC for repealing these hateful rules. Will it make a difference in their interaction with the outside world? I don't know, but I hope so. Unfortunately, my childhood church went with the bigots.
So a certain strain of Methodist thought the Bible was a work of man, fallable in interpretation and meaning and fact? That's one I haven't heard. Learn something new everyday.
What is the song about wishing and hoping?
Christian wishing and hoping for an immortal existence in heaven. With a god powerful enough to destroy that hope for those who wont fall in line with the divinely laid down rules. Fear of non-existence or torturous punishment to try and keep the congregants in line.
… "And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder
One of the four beasts saying,
'Come and see.' and I saw, and behold a white horse"
… There's a man goin' 'round takin' names
And he decides who to free and who to blame
Everybody won't be treated all the same
There'll be a golden ladder reachin' down
When the man comes around
… The hairs on your arm will stand up
At the terror in each sip and in each sup
Will you partake of that last offered cup
Or disappear into the potter's ground?
When the man comes around
… "And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked, and behold a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed with him" St. Cash
I actually visited the ancient cave dwelling where that was supposedly written. I could feel how someone could go insane living there.
A few day spent just lying in a cave will do wonders for your mind.
But years in exile, holding up in cave while filled with rage about the destruction can drive one mad OR spur one to write a prophesy using idiomatic images concerning gods vengeance on the Romans.
The madness still comes from all the religious leaders taking all the images as literal rather than metaphor.
Well, there's "Wishing" by Buddy Holly. Or "Wishin' and Hopin'" by Dusty Springfield.
Thank you. It was the Dusty Springfield song playing between my ears.
I goofed on the Holly tune. I thought it was "Wishing" but the tune I had in my head was actually his song "Crying, Waiting, Hoping" (George Harrison and the Beatles covered that one. It had been in their repertoire in the early days).
You have sinned. You shall be sent to the fiery lakes of hell for making a mistake is a death warrant for Jehovah. That is unless Yu can ge into a Catholic Church soon enough to confess but more importantly provide your tithings. Jehovah always likes his tithings.
Any church that welcomes gay clergy and let's their gay clergy perform same sex weddings is a good church. I hope when the Catholic Church gets off their high horse((50% of Catholic priests don't keep their vow of Chastity and of that 50% at least 10% are gay if not more) then I will have some hope for the Catholic Church as well. I'm very close to severing all ties to the church I have loved and loved mainly for the mask it wears. Why should it matter in the least if churches have gay clergy?
The RCC pardoned Galileo in 1992, >350 years after the fact. If we take the 1970s as the start of gay rights hitting the mainstream social conscience, then you should look for them to admit they were wrong about gays sometime around 2330.
I was thinking some time in the early 3000s, but I'll accept your optimism.
Yup. Very true.
I was about nine months into my tour in Vietnam, and in a very dark place. What little faith I had left at that point was dangling by a thread when I went to church for the last time as any kind of believer. We listened to an idiot priest give us what we came to call the, 'Kill a Commie for Christ' pep talk. According to him we had been chosen to defend mother church against the godless. All we wanted to do was survive and go home. I know I wasn't the only one to walk away from the church that day, never to return.
I’m also, Viet Nam era vet as a navy corpsman. I’ve seen a lot of “patriotic” death. Fortunately for me, in the big picture of my life, I had already left religion at the age of ten. What you wrote reminded me of how the Vatican supported the Nazis in WWII because they were fighting the godless communists.
As Shakespeare said, “adversity acquaints one with strange bedfellows.”
Thanks for your service. Your voice here is very much needed and appreciated!
“The horror, the horror” - Colonel Kurtz.
Don't hold your breath. It took the catholic church about 700 centuries to "understand" their god was against married priests. Which led to a major schism with some Eastern Europe churches whose god told them "Nah, marriage is the way". christian should try to worship Loki he is more consistent in his inconsistency.
Yes a thousand years ago there were married priests but those married priests were giving their sons church property so the Catholic Church said we need the money more than you priests need to have normal sex lives. So they banned Catholic priests from marrying to keep church property for the Church. You can't ban a normal human function.
Yep. Always comes down to the money. Liturgical beliefs are always slaves to money and power.
By the time the Catholic Church decides to lose their homophobia, their parishioners will consist of little more than geriatrics who will die off and not be replaced (knock wood). Social change is leaving the RCC behind, and they are too in love with their doctrine and dogma to be able to catch up.
All the RCC cares about is the look not the substance. The beautiful mask covers such ugliness.
The "look," such as it is, is holding up less and less well as time passes, and the attendance at mass is taking the same nosedive that other churches are experiencing, yet the RCC refuses to take the hint.
One can hope they're all headed for oblivion, but I still suspect that process will be glacially slow.
They never change until they have to. They won't make it into this millinnia until the next millinnia if , then.
And there it is again, wishing and hoping. We do not weave tangled webs only when we deceive. Lige is a tangled web woven in a state of chaos and complexity.
Hope is the one evil the gods kept for themselves by snapping the jar lid down.
I said ages ago there would be schism – but that's just Christianity, if they don't schis over one thing they'll do it over another. But it's a good thing. Lets you know exactly who the evil bastards are.
12 different flavors of kkkatlikism at last count. ONE BIG ONE COMING as frankie hates kweers.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1666650960787926&set=a.111838159602555&__cft__[0]=AZXmOifYDDJFQaLegHLila8-K8HoCUX0y9YfTxJXWxtetL6WO_U4wsrCBFoHHubZ0MmuNvh6IrZNkD8f9GXAf2S9_LAKfAWzacs3VHi2SV819suPMx1evWFxnSVockfgoa900dJ0mlqLuS8L4GReJzu7iAgjjt8q7kaWe3WPPC5sUA&__tn__=EH-R
The RCC has "no power to change sacraments" yet they certainly have power to ruin lives.
The Methodist Church by me growing up seemed like it had nice people. I even went a few times with a friend in my quest to see If Religion was Right for Me (spoiler: nope). I don’t remember what was said one time, but I do remember being turned off by what I think was some bigoted remark and I was like wut?
"The United Methodist Church reversed its ban on gay clergy. Will it matter?"
Yes and no in varying degrees. There are the small pictures, the wider views, and the largest view. To individual clerics who are gay, it will matter a lot. To members who have strong opinions about LGBTQ issues, positive or negative, it will matter strongly to moderately. To the UMC as a whole it won't matter that much since they already initiated the process of change years ago.
In the biggest picture, the direction of American Christianity and the direction of religion in general worldwide, it won't make a damn bit of difference at all. It will all continue to decline.
Churches and fleets of churches focus on their particular policies and practices as the reason for their shrinking membership because those are things that they might be able to correct.
But those are the visible, small-picture things that might precipitate people leaving religion. In the background, in the big picture, society is steadily losing interest in supernatural things. It won't matter how well churches and religious institutions "clean up their act" about their bigotries. People will continue to leave because they just don't believe as broadly or as strongly in magical beings, magical powers, and magical things.
It's like churches and religions are boats on a lake. They try to repair their leaks and tattered sails, they change their courses, they form fleets or break out on their own, but meanwhile THE LAKE IS DRYING UP, and they have no control over that. The interest and belief in supernaturalism is the water, and I think in about a century the boats will be left sitting on dry mud.
I sort of feel like this is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound in some ways. Not only is it too little too late, it's not really addressing the issue at hand in an effective and productive way. Even so, I'm glad that more of the LGBTQ community at least has somewhere to go for their religious needs if necessary.
To me, the real issue churches are struggling with is what to do when one group of faithful wants to hate another group of faithful and both groups attend the same services and functions. This isn't a debate the Christian bible ever addresses well or directly in my opinion, and as a result churches often find themselves ripping apart over these things. A minor theological debate this is not; no what we're seeing here is more of a diplomatic failure because most of the problem stems from an inability to compromise in any form.
This decision doesn't change that. Sure, it's great that LGBTQ folks now have another option in their religious practice, and I'm glad for them to have that now. I just don't see it addressing the real problem successfully in the long term.
Jesus says "Love the sinner." Then turns around and says "Hate the sinner."
I wrote this some years ago on this very subject:
First, Rev. Vicki, thanks for understanding, evolving, and repenting. Here's some advice from an atheist.
I just love the ignorance of a certain class of so called Christian, always trying to find in god's holy words the justification for their own bad behavior, using their bible as a weapon against others they either dont like, or don't approve of, or both.
One might wonder why there is a UNITED Methodist church these days. Could it be that Methodism had a little schism about 175 years ago over whether it was proper to own another human being, to be able to destroy his family because he was property, to murder him with impunity because he really wasn't quite a full human being? and didn't the bible beaters have god's holy word to justify this?
According to the bible beaters below, god's word never changes. Of course it does and has, many times, as soon as it becomes expedient for it to do so. Well, actually, gods word doesn't change, WE DO. we become better than god's word, which is why we don't burn witches, own slaves, or engage in a 2000 year old pogrom against the Christ killers.
We just haven't yet reached that point over gay people, but we're working on it. The real truth of religious prejudice is this: god's word is what a certain class of so called Christian uses to justify what cannot be justified by any other means...
Including gods word.
What your beloved methodist church needs is a good old fashioned schism. What is holding you back are the african and other backwards, third world churches. They will continue to hold back progress in YOUR church as long as they can, as they have in the episcopal church. And all over a few verses that they were taught by their colonial masters to mean one thing they clearly don't mean.
The united Methodist church became united post slavery, if I recall. They weren't so united before, when the argument was over slavery and the inherent worth of black people as human beings. That's what makes the African contingent so mind numbingly obtuse in their opposition. You're not going to change them, not in this lifetime.
By avoiding the schism, you are bowing to the spirit of racism that informed your last schism, except that this time, it's homobigotry, not racial bigotry. By avoiding this schism, all you are saying is what the Catholics say about defending child predators-- avoiding a scandal in the church is much more important than doing what you know to be morally correct.
So just do it. Have a good schism, cry a little bit, and then get on with the job of opposing yet one more human prejudice that has been given some sort of sanctity as god's word, or sincere religious belief, or whatever it is they are saying now...
...as if that is any kind of an excuse.
There are no maps of world equations, differing from one region to the next. You can have a state flower or bird, but there aren’t any state chemical elements. You will not find an asexual astronomy, a Baptist biology, a capitalist chemistry, an English engineering, a mammalian math, or a feminist physics. There’s only one worldwide version of each, because they’re all based on FACTS, not accidents of birth or matters of opinion.
Conversely, religion is nothing BUT opinions, no facts involved, which is why anybody’s word on religion is just as good as anyone else’s (to wit, no good at all). And, since there’s no way of resolving doctrinal disputes, we have (no kidding) 45,000 different sects of Christianity alone, more added weekly.
"there aren’t any state chemical elements"
Meth in several states.
And awesome alliterations.
South Dakota says "Meth, we're on it" which makes sense given their governor.
Citric acid in Floriduh.
We are going to let teh Gays be themselves..... ***Poof, God becomes real.*** Holy shit, it did matter.