Conservative Christians are usually the first people to claim they're being persecuted, and yet no group would be quicker to persecute others if given the chance. The rights of gay people, along with many other groups, wouldn't last fifteen minutes in the hands of this girl's father. The prospect of spending eternity with conservative Christians isn't the selling point they would have us believe it is.
And when they're done persecuting anyone outside of their religious anthill, they'll go after each other. They have a habit and history of persecuting other Christians.
I have long contended that the sheer number of Christian denominations alone, should be a cautionary tale for true believers. It speaks to a God who could will the universe into existence, but when it came to the most important message imaginable, couldn't make himself understood.
Over 45,000 different sects of Christianity worldwide. Each claiming to be the right one. They all want us to agree with them when they can't even agree with each other.
Let them first decide which one is right. THEN come talk to us.
At heart, we seem to be polytheistic: how many times have I heard someone say, "That isn't what 'my god' would do/say etc." Implies we each have our own personal god who miraculously mirrors our opinions and beliefs.
The Christian God is nothing, if not flexible. There' is a tribe for everyone but those who do not want to be part of a tribe, and are consigned to eternal damnation.
Yeah, no. Fuck both of them. The school shouldn't allow students to wear clothing that is overtly hateful towards others. "But it's in the bible!" 𝘚𝘰 𝘸𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘪𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘤𝘩𝘶𝘳𝘤𝘩, 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘵𝘵𝘺 𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘵𝘭𝘦 𝘣𝘪𝘨𝘰𝘵. Just because it's in the bible does not mean it should be acceptable for you to wear it on a t-shirt to school.
Allowing that shirt is not upholding free speech, it's providing a free pass to do harm; one person's rights end where those of others begin. It has also long been held that some of students' rights may be curtailed while on campus for the purpose of keeping order and providing all students with a safe environment to learn in. Sooner or later, a gay kid may have had to sit across from that shirt in class, and they wouldn't have the choice to just look the other way. If the school wouldn't allow a student to wear a shirt that says "Hitler was right" or "white power" or "go back where you came from," then this should be prohibited too.
I agree with Hemant that school admins dropped the ball by making this about sex and not hate... but the case should have gone hard against the Penkoskis, and the other case in Ohio in 2005 was wrongly decided as well. The existence of LGBTQ people is not "political." Wearing a shirt that condemns our existence is therefore not "political speech." It's hate speech. It should not be protected, no matter which book the hater sourced it from.
Imagine the reaction to the t-shirt that said HITLER WAS A DEVOUT CHRISTIAN.
Christians would lose their shit, despite the fact that Hitler really was a Christian, said so in his books and speeches and claimed he and his Nazis were doing God's work on Earth.
On a side note I had a bumper sticker once that said “god is my copilot but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him” lol. Just thought I’d throw that in there.
I don’t think students should have free speech rights to wear message clothing in school and schools should be free to bar that shit. I think this is an equal protection problem more than a free speech problem. I find wearing a “Homosexuality is a sin” shirt to be a self righteous thick headed chickenshit thing to do, but as a belief statement, it’s one shared by millions of people. I don’t think it’s easily characterized as hate speech that can be regulated differently than other controversial political and religious speech. But, like I said, I think the courts have gotten it wrong on students free speech rights inside the school walls, so what do I know?
Millions of people agreeing with hate speech doesn't mean it isn't hate speech- it just means that millions of people are bigots (but we already knew that).
The depressing part is to many people in the U.S. a tea shirt that points out that people who aren't straight white christians actually exist is hateful.
I go in the other direction. Let kids wear whatever damfool thing they want to school and don't make a big deal out of it, which just calls undue attention to them. For my money, there's a pretty definitive line between expressions and actions, and only the latter deserve sanctioning.
Christianity was much better when Christians were persecuted. Its adoption by the Emperor Constantine started it on its long decline into intolerance and institutionalization.
In 313 CE, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. This gave Christianity and most other religions legal status within the empire. Unlike popular belief, this did not make Christianity the state religion of Rome. It was not a total replacement of traditional Roman beliefs with Christianity.
A dozen years later, Constantine called a gathering of Christian leaders (the Council of Nicaea) to formally determine what the orthodox beliefs of Christianity were. This resulted in the Nicene Creed that laid out the agreed on beliefs of that council.
But it wasn't until after Theodosius I issued the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE that Nicene Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire, with apostacy that was punishable with death. Most of the other Christian sects were suddenly deemed heretical, had their legal status stripped from them and even had their very properties seized by Rome.
Who the fuck is Penkoski kidding? If creating a cult was against the law Scientology, for one, would be out of business. Secular humanism isn’t a cult, it’s a philosophy. Idiot. His daughter is a dim bulb too.
well... she's been heavily indoctrinated. maybe she'll read a book and come around? fingers crossed she's at the receiving end of the same hatefulness she was spewing, while at college, and starts to understand what a joke her dad's whole message and mission is. high schoolers at the mercy of school rules may not have stood up to her much, but if i know college undergrads, she's getting earfuls.
To counter Christian hate seen on t-shirts, I propose the following t-shirt slogan:
YOU HYPOCRITE, FIRST TAKE THE LOG OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE, AND THEN YOU WILL SEE CLEARLY TO TAKE THE SPECK OUT OF YOUR NEIGHBOR'S EYE
MATTHEW 7:5
Wonder how Brielle Penkoski would react if she saw students wearing THAT one? Think she'd learn something? As if.
Someone needs to inform her that Jesus didn't utter a word about homosexuality, which wasn't even a word until 1868 in Germany and never appeared in any version of the bible until the Revised Standard Version in 1946. The only possible mention was of Jesus healing the young male lover of a Roman Centurion. A Gentile! He did it long-distance to boot. He didn't question the nature of the relationship (if he's really God then he must have known).
"The Bible says nothing about 'homosexuality' as an innate dimension of personality. Sexual orientation was not understood in biblical times."
I can go them one better: Not much of ANYTHING was understood in biblical times. At least by those whose shaky oral tales formed the basis of the bible.
Homosexuality was well accepted in (pagan) times. Alexander the Great's best fighters were all homosexuals. My theory about those subsequent desert religions is that in dangerous times tribes needed all the members they could muster, and homosexuals didn't reproduce. So it became unacceptable, like eating pork and shellfish before there was refrigeration.
Homosexuality, like atheism, far predates any and all organized religion. :)
Religionistas call homosexuality "unnatural." They're too stupid to realize that it is everywhere in nature. It is VERY natural. Religion is unnatural because it is not inborn. It must be taught.
I’m giving 3-1 odds that the daughter, the crackpot, or both will eventually come out or be outed.
My old man yelling at clouds take: the answer to all this T-shirt stupidity is to just require every student, of whatever gender, to wear black or navy golf shirts and khaki pants or skirts (students choice). Show your individuality at school with your brain and not your midriff. Now everyone shut up so I can hear Matlock.
Speaking as a recovering asshole, I find it helpful now when assholes wear visual cues so I don't have to invest any time in them before I find out they're assholes.
"With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. " --Christians making lame excuses since (the forged) 2 Peter.
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34. Do you know of anybody claiming to be over 2,000 years old walking around?
“From the dawn of time we came…moving silently down through the centuries. Living many secret lives, struggling to reach the time of the gathering, when the few who remain will battle to the last. No one has ever known we were among you…..until now.“
Of course, he was only a couple hundred years old.
He obviously doesn’t by his actions. He claims all the children wearing the rainbow stuff is offensive and he has banned folks who use it on social media. I doubt he really would be sanguine about an anti-Jesus shirt. He understands actual freedom of speech to use it to manipulate the situation in his favor, but he doesn’t truly support it for all.
OT: Very damned sad news: Tom Smothers of The Smothers Brothers has died at 86. He was a tireless fighter for freedom of expression and against censorship.
Conservative Christians are usually the first people to claim they're being persecuted, and yet no group would be quicker to persecute others if given the chance. The rights of gay people, along with many other groups, wouldn't last fifteen minutes in the hands of this girl's father. The prospect of spending eternity with conservative Christians isn't the selling point they would have us believe it is.
And when they're done persecuting anyone outside of their religious anthill, they'll go after each other. They have a habit and history of persecuting other Christians.
"...religious anthill..."
Um, how can an anthill be religious? *smiles*
I like to refer to the various religions of the world as anthills. :)
I have long contended that the sheer number of Christian denominations alone, should be a cautionary tale for true believers. It speaks to a God who could will the universe into existence, but when it came to the most important message imaginable, couldn't make himself understood.
Over 45,000 different sects of Christianity worldwide. Each claiming to be the right one. They all want us to agree with them when they can't even agree with each other.
Let them first decide which one is right. THEN come talk to us.
In my view, the real message of the gospels, is the never ending debate over them. That's not how a God would communicate.
At heart, we seem to be polytheistic: how many times have I heard someone say, "That isn't what 'my god' would do/say etc." Implies we each have our own personal god who miraculously mirrors our opinions and beliefs.
Yes, we created god in our image AND gave he/she/it all of our foibles too. Smart, aren’t we?
The Christian God is nothing, if not flexible. There' is a tribe for everyone but those who do not want to be part of a tribe, and are consigned to eternal damnation.
Yeah, no. Fuck both of them. The school shouldn't allow students to wear clothing that is overtly hateful towards others. "But it's in the bible!" 𝘚𝘰 𝘸𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘪𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘤𝘩𝘶𝘳𝘤𝘩, 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘵𝘵𝘺 𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘵𝘭𝘦 𝘣𝘪𝘨𝘰𝘵. Just because it's in the bible does not mean it should be acceptable for you to wear it on a t-shirt to school.
Allowing that shirt is not upholding free speech, it's providing a free pass to do harm; one person's rights end where those of others begin. It has also long been held that some of students' rights may be curtailed while on campus for the purpose of keeping order and providing all students with a safe environment to learn in. Sooner or later, a gay kid may have had to sit across from that shirt in class, and they wouldn't have the choice to just look the other way. If the school wouldn't allow a student to wear a shirt that says "Hitler was right" or "white power" or "go back where you came from," then this should be prohibited too.
I agree with Hemant that school admins dropped the ball by making this about sex and not hate... but the case should have gone hard against the Penkoskis, and the other case in Ohio in 2005 was wrongly decided as well. The existence of LGBTQ people is not "political." Wearing a shirt that condemns our existence is therefore not "political speech." It's hate speech. It should not be protected, no matter which book the hater sourced it from.
Imagine the reaction to the t-shirt that said HITLER WAS A DEVOUT CHRISTIAN.
Christians would lose their shit, despite the fact that Hitler really was a Christian, said so in his books and speeches and claimed he and his Nazis were doing God's work on Earth.
On a side note I had a bumper sticker once that said “god is my copilot but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him” lol. Just thought I’d throw that in there.
Love that one. :D
I think some would be fine with that.
Trump's "Very fine people."
I don’t think students should have free speech rights to wear message clothing in school and schools should be free to bar that shit. I think this is an equal protection problem more than a free speech problem. I find wearing a “Homosexuality is a sin” shirt to be a self righteous thick headed chickenshit thing to do, but as a belief statement, it’s one shared by millions of people. I don’t think it’s easily characterized as hate speech that can be regulated differently than other controversial political and religious speech. But, like I said, I think the courts have gotten it wrong on students free speech rights inside the school walls, so what do I know?
Millions of people agreeing with hate speech doesn't mean it isn't hate speech- it just means that millions of people are bigots (but we already knew that).
At least 74 million in the US of A as of 2020. Though covid may have lessened that number somewhat.
The depressing part is to many people in the U.S. a tea shirt that points out that people who aren't straight white christians actually exist is hateful.
I go in the other direction. Let kids wear whatever damfool thing they want to school and don't make a big deal out of it, which just calls undue attention to them. For my money, there's a pretty definitive line between expressions and actions, and only the latter deserve sanctioning.
I can just imagine Penkoski grinding her molars if she sees the following on her college campus:
SIN IS AN IMAGINARY DISEASE INVENTED TO SELL YOU AN IMAGINARY CURE
Why can't I find that somewhere on a shirt already?!!?!?
Ask and it shall be granted...
https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Republic-Imaginary-Disease-T-Shirt/dp/B08MZMQ1PY
Also available as a longsleeve...
https://www.amazon.com/Imaginary-Disease-Long-Sleeve-T-Shirt/dp/B09NTNRQN4
That s SO stolen! But I will upvote it first cuz I got manners and shit.
Wish I could claim credit. Said t-shirt is available in both short and long sleeves (see elsewhere on this subthread)
"Free speech is free speech" says Penkoski. Think she'd embrace free speech if the shirt said:
THE ROMANS WERE RIGHT. FEED CHRISTIANS TO THE LIONS
That's free speech as much as her hateful t-shirt.
𝐴𝑛 𝑎𝑡𝑜𝑚-𝑏𝑙𝑎𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟 𝑖𝑠 𝑎 𝑔𝑜𝑜𝑑 𝑤𝑒𝑎𝑝𝑜𝑛, 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑖𝑡 𝑐𝑎𝑛 𝑝𝑜𝑖𝑛𝑡 𝑏𝑜𝑡ℎ 𝑤𝑎𝑦𝑠.
-- Salvor Hardin, Mayor of Terminus
𝐴 𝑠𝑤𝑜𝑟𝑑 𝑚𝑎𝑦 𝑠𝑡𝑟𝑖𝑘𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑖𝑒𝑛𝑑 𝑜𝑟 𝑓𝑜𝑒; 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑖𝑓𝑓𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒 𝑑𝑒𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑠 𝑜𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑜𝑛𝑒 𝑤𝑖𝑒𝑙𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑡.
-- me
𝘏𝘶𝘯𝘨𝘦𝘳 𝘭𝘰𝘰𝘬𝘴 𝘢𝘯 𝘢𝘸𝘧𝘶𝘭 𝘭𝘰𝘵 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘦𝘷𝘪𝘭 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘦𝘯𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘶𝘵𝘭𝘦𝘳𝘺. - The Doctor
Christianity was much better when Christians were persecuted. Its adoption by the Emperor Constantine started it on its long decline into intolerance and institutionalization.
Notice that the Roman Empire only fell AFTER Christianity became the state religion of Rome?
Half of it, the other half fell about 1000 years later.
In 313 CE, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. This gave Christianity and most other religions legal status within the empire. Unlike popular belief, this did not make Christianity the state religion of Rome. It was not a total replacement of traditional Roman beliefs with Christianity.
A dozen years later, Constantine called a gathering of Christian leaders (the Council of Nicaea) to formally determine what the orthodox beliefs of Christianity were. This resulted in the Nicene Creed that laid out the agreed on beliefs of that council.
But it wasn't until after Theodosius I issued the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE that Nicene Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire, with apostacy that was punishable with death. Most of the other Christian sects were suddenly deemed heretical, had their legal status stripped from them and even had their very properties seized by Rome.
Needless to say, it was all downhill from there.
Bis repetita. What was the first name of the Byzantine Empire ?
Imperium Graecorum (Empire of the Greeks). The Byzantine Empire was a latecomer (19th Century).
I think we may have a little difficulty with the conflation of causation and correlation here.
Kristians weren't persecuted. 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘔𝘺𝘵𝘩 𝘰𝘧 𝘗𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯: 𝘏𝘰𝘸 𝘌𝘢𝘳𝘭𝘺 𝘊𝘩𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘯𝘴 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘢 𝘚𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘺 𝘰𝘧 𝘔𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘺𝘳𝘥𝘰𝘮 by Candida Moss.
https://www.amazon.com/MYTH-PERSECUTION-Candida-Moss/dp/0062104551/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+myth+of+christian+persecution&qid=1703722257&sr=8-1
I have one for them "Sin is evil cos it's maths."
BHm 1:1.
Off on a tangent, I see.
It's my right.
That's your angle?
I am obtuse and proud of it 😋
Sounds acute. ;)
Your joke feels flat.
It's a sine!
It's a sine of the times!
Beat ya to it by about 30 minutes or so. :)
😝😝😝
Actually, it's geometry, too, but you knew that. 😁
Geowhat ?
Maths? (plural?) There is only one True math! ; )
It's why I am a pagan (history major nerd) 😁
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_MkCV_MkgE
Cosine?
Who the fuck is Penkoski kidding? If creating a cult was against the law Scientology, for one, would be out of business. Secular humanism isn’t a cult, it’s a philosophy. Idiot. His daughter is a dim bulb too.
well... she's been heavily indoctrinated. maybe she'll read a book and come around? fingers crossed she's at the receiving end of the same hatefulness she was spewing, while at college, and starts to understand what a joke her dad's whole message and mission is. high schoolers at the mercy of school rules may not have stood up to her much, but if i know college undergrads, she's getting earfuls.
Unless she goes to Liberty or someplace like that right? In which case she'll probably fit right in.
Would he support "free speech" if a t-shirt said, "There's no such thing as sin"?
To counter Christian hate seen on t-shirts, I propose the following t-shirt slogan:
YOU HYPOCRITE, FIRST TAKE THE LOG OUT OF YOUR OWN EYE, AND THEN YOU WILL SEE CLEARLY TO TAKE THE SPECK OUT OF YOUR NEIGHBOR'S EYE
MATTHEW 7:5
Wonder how Brielle Penkoski would react if she saw students wearing THAT one? Think she'd learn something? As if.
Someone needs to inform her that Jesus didn't utter a word about homosexuality, which wasn't even a word until 1868 in Germany and never appeared in any version of the bible until the Revised Standard Version in 1946. The only possible mention was of Jesus healing the young male lover of a Roman Centurion. A Gentile! He did it long-distance to boot. He didn't question the nature of the relationship (if he's really God then he must have known).
Plus how do you define "sexual immorality" ? It changes throughout the ages and cultures.
Example : for Romans homosexuality wasn't but being penetrated by someone socially inferior was.
Human Rights Campaign puts it succinctly:
"The Bible says nothing about 'homosexuality' as an innate dimension of personality. Sexual orientation was not understood in biblical times."
I can go them one better: Not much of ANYTHING was understood in biblical times. At least by those whose shaky oral tales formed the basis of the bible.
Homosexuality was well accepted in (pagan) times. Alexander the Great's best fighters were all homosexuals. My theory about those subsequent desert religions is that in dangerous times tribes needed all the members they could muster, and homosexuals didn't reproduce. So it became unacceptable, like eating pork and shellfish before there was refrigeration.
Homosexuality, like atheism, far predates any and all organized religion. :)
Religionistas call homosexuality "unnatural." They're too stupid to realize that it is everywhere in nature. It is VERY natural. Religion is unnatural because it is not inborn. It must be taught.
This nature, do these guys count?
https://sites.tufts.edu/museumstudents/2021/02/22/whats-with-all-the-gay-penguins/
I bet it is the same chemicals that turned those freaking frogs gay.
*slams hand against the desk*
"He added that he would feel the same way if another student wore an anti-Jesus shirt even if he didn’t like it."
Believe it when I see it.
I'm so fucking tired of evangelicals and their persecution complex.
you could argue it is a kink at this point.
Thing is, kinks SHOULD be fun. I can't see any way this would be fun, not for yours truly, anyway.
This and hate are how they get their jollies.
Yeah!
I’m giving 3-1 odds that the daughter, the crackpot, or both will eventually come out or be outed.
My old man yelling at clouds take: the answer to all this T-shirt stupidity is to just require every student, of whatever gender, to wear black or navy golf shirts and khaki pants or skirts (students choice). Show your individuality at school with your brain and not your midriff. Now everyone shut up so I can hear Matlock.
Speaking as a recovering asshole, I find it helpful now when assholes wear visual cues so I don't have to invest any time in them before I find out they're assholes.
"Jesus is returning soon." --Several Bible verses
Christians, please define "soon".
Two or three weeks. Just like Trump's health care plan.
From which planet ? Venus or Mercury ?
Mars for men, Venus for women...or something,
I think I'm from Nibiru.
Zorgin claims to be from Gallifrey. I can vouch for that. We were schoolmates there.
Pluto years.
"With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. " --Christians making lame excuses since (the forged) 2 Peter.
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34. Do you know of anybody claiming to be over 2,000 years old walking around?
Keith Richards?
“From the dawn of time we came…moving silently down through the centuries. Living many secret lives, struggling to reach the time of the gathering, when the few who remain will battle to the last. No one has ever known we were among you…..until now.“
Of course, he was only a couple hundred years old.
Methos was over 5,000 years old. He was around long before Jesus.
If a day is like 1,000 years, count me out. Ain’t got time for that crap
𝐻𝑒 𝑎𝑑𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 ℎ𝑒 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑓𝑒𝑒𝑙 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑦 𝑖𝑓 𝑎𝑛𝑜𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑤𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑎𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑖-𝐽𝑒𝑠𝑢𝑠 𝑠ℎ𝑖𝑟𝑡 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛 𝑖𝑓 ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑖𝑑𝑛’𝑡 𝑙𝑖𝑘𝑒 𝑖𝑡.
A far right Christian who understands actual freedom of speech? Will wonders never cease!
He obviously doesn’t by his actions. He claims all the children wearing the rainbow stuff is offensive and he has banned folks who use it on social media. I doubt he really would be sanguine about an anti-Jesus shirt. He understands actual freedom of speech to use it to manipulate the situation in his favor, but he doesn’t truly support it for all.
I wouldn't assume he's telling the truth.
I will believe it when I see it with my eyes.
I wonder how they'd react to my T-shirt – "Activities for children – let's raise demons." With illustrations.
Now I want to see it 🤣
I don't know if this is it, but probobly pretty close.
https://teespring.com/shop/new-let-s-summon-demons-t-shir?pid=2&cid=573
Dang, beat me to it (was going to post this)
https://www.wickedclothes.com/products/lets-summon-demons-ringer-shirt
OT: Very damned sad news: Tom Smothers of The Smothers Brothers has died at 86. He was a tireless fighter for freedom of expression and against censorship.
https://news.yahoo.com/comedian-tom-smothers-one-half-171553399.html
This makes me incredibly sad. I was a huge fan of that show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFb45x_zgA
Genius. Played the fool but was unbelievably talented.
And here is the never-aired episode that got them fired from CBS (after a short introduction/set-up by the brothers):
https://youtu.be/VbdAVIKtiHY
He has moved on to the State of Yo.