352 Comments
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Joe King's avatar

Don't want to play by the rules? Forget government support. Seems like a good idea we could use here in the US...

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

Separation of church and state sounds like a good idea we could use here in the US.

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Straw's avatar

But guess what! Here in Norway, in our constitution, we have an article in our constitution that says app. "The ruling monarch must be Christian belonging to the Norwegian Church".

The proposal from the Government was to delete that. Then our King Harald used his right to overrule the government. Then I lost all respect I was able to have for the man. It is the only time he used his overruling right, but I have never forgot.

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Maltnothops's avatar

Straw, I want to commend and thank you for repeatedly explaining the background about this in your country. I found your comments helpful and educational. (Tip of the hat I never wear because I look stupid in a hat.)

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Straw's avatar

Thank you. My pleasure.

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Vanity Unfair's avatar

The UK has no Constitution but a similar situation exists here. The Bill of Rights, 1688, bars RCs from the throne. NB Spelling was more... fluid... in the C17.

And whereas it hath beene found by Experience that it is inconsistent with the Safety and Welfaire of this Protestant Kingdome to be governed by a Popish Prince the said Lords Spirituall and Temporall and Commons doe further pray that it may be enacted That all and every person and persons that is are or shall be reconciled to or shall hold Communion with the See or Church of Rome or shall professe the Popish Religion shall be excluded and be for ever uncapeable to inherit possesse or enjoy the Crowne and Government of this Realme and Ireland and the Dominions thereunto belonging or any part of the same or to have use or exercise any Regall Power Authoritie or Jurisdiction within the same. And in all and every such Case or Cases the People of these Realmes shall be and are hereby absolved of their Allegiance.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/WillandMarSess2/1/2

After that, the monarch has to swear the Coronation Oath to uphold the Protestant religion.

Arch Bishop or Bishop.

Will You to the utmost of Your power Maintaine the Laws of God the true Profession of the Gospell and the Protestant Reformed Religion Established by Law? And will You Preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of this Realme and to the Churches committed to their Charge all such Rights and Priviledges as by Law doe or shall appertaine unto them or any of them.

King and Queene.

All this I Promise to doe.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/WillandMar/1/6/section/III

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cdbunch's avatar

England should really consider throwing off the monarchy and the Church of England.

Edit: Not that anyone asked for my opinion.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

While they had no qualm placing a protestant king on the Scottish throne.

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Vanity Unfair's avatar

It was the other way around. James I and VI was the Protestant King of Scots (N.B. not King of Scotland) before becoming King of England in 1603 and uniting the crowns but not necessarily the countries. There were separate parliaments until the Act of Union, 1707.

Scotland again has its own Parliament, for devolved matters, Wales similarly has a Senedd (Senate) and Northern Ireland has, on and off, an Assembly. In fact the only part of the "United" Kingdom that does not have its own legislative assembly is England.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I forgot to thank you for the correction.

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painedumonde's avatar

I need to start reading the comments before I type.

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Jennifer Em's avatar

💯

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oraxx's avatar

If Norway wants to use public money to support religion, that's their call. It does not, however, qualify as a good idea. I'm adamantly opposed to religious organizations receiving a penny of public money for any reason. If humanity is going to survive, then religion has to be consigned to the dust bin of bad ideas.

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Sko Hayes's avatar

But we ARE giving them money in the form of tax breaks.

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oraxx's avatar

That we are, and I don't know how you can justify it. In my view, any church using the public air waves to solicit money should be subject to an outside audit of their books, with full disclosure to the public.

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Munchygut's avatar

For all charities except religious organizations, there is a rule for that . It's called IRS Form 990. It is used by the IRS to track all donations and expenditures of the charities. The fact that churches don't have to report this information Is why Joel Osteen has a multimillion house and more $100K cars than he needs.

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Sko Hayes's avatar

Perhaps that new funding for the IRS will help them investigate some of these churches.

I live in a town with 3000 people. There are 17 churches here.

Allegedly, pastors don't make a lot of money, but the pastor of a church down the street from me manages to buy a $50,000 truck every two years.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Hey ! Don't you know that auditing religious institutions will ruin a country ? Look at mine.

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oraxx's avatar

Cockroaches thrive in the dark.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

And Paris nickname is still, as long as la peine stay away from power, "la ville des lumières".

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Straw's avatar

The argument back then, app 1998, was that with giving them money, the government could withhold money to organisation that was in conflict with the human rights (UN?). I wrote more about the moneything elsewhere here in the comments.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

"For example, the Witnesses say members can't get involved in politics, which is why JWs never vote in elections."

I wish American evilgelicals had a similar rule.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"We also believe that they violate children's rights by allowing them to exclude baptized minors"

But not the right of children to have appropriate healthcare like blood transfusions and organs transplants ?

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Straw's avatar

Situations like that has

occured. In those situations the government has taken over the legal responsibility of the minor. The problem is that the JV parent refuses to accept the child after that. We have a system for taking care of abandoned children, but it is hard and horrible for them.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Why on earth should any religious organisation get a government subsidy? If you can't hold your own in the marketplace of ideas...............

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NOGODZ20's avatar

From Franklin's letter to Richard Price, dated 9 October 1780.

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Straw's avatar

I agree, but the thing is that Norway has a xian history dating back to app 1000 account. For a time not being xian could get you killed. The official and enforced religion of our land was written into the constitution. Nowadays only the regent has to be xian, the rest of us can believe or not believe whatever we want. It takes time to change people's opinion and a lot of Norwegian citizen still believe we all have the same religion.

By the way, non-religious organisations like the atheists, humanists and other organisations like that, also get paid per member.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Thanks Blue Tooth. I guess.

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Holytape's avatar

"If a religious or philosophical community, or individuals acting on behalf of the community, commits violence or coercion, makes threats, violates children's rights, violates statutory discrimination prohibitions or in other ways seriously violates the rights and freedoms of others, society may be denied grants or grants may be suspended." Jesus, they just want to take the fun out of religion. If I take all that out of the bible you don't even have enough pages left to roll a blunt.

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Henri Issacson's avatar

Agree with BHM and oraxx, but they openly don’t support governments or participate in voting but they want a government handout??????? Serious cult thinking.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Hey, who doesn't like free money? 😝

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Aria and Rhapsodie, money is not edible 🤡

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Straw's avatar

As long as The Norwegian Folk Church (yup, that is the English name) gets money, every belief society gets money.

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Kay-El's avatar

OT: Liberty University fined $14 million for not keeping campus safe.

https://wapo.st/432AgYO (gift link)

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Why isn't God looking out for them and protecting them?

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

Busy starving little kids, finding car keys & parking spots

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Not to mention calling the Big Game.

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Crowscage's avatar

And watching children being molested by his representatives while doing nothing.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

He is impersonating a pool boy.

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Kay-El's avatar

Playing foosball instead?

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cdbunch's avatar

She's not very bright. "It took us 5 Adams to figure that out."

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

From Juliette Noureddine, it's the devil who is a woman.

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cdbunch's avatar

The foosball comment was a reference to the movie 'Dogma' where God was played by Alanis Morrisette.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r72WcCMsmLg

She changed the title since, it's now "L'éternel féminin".

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Len Koz's avatar

I think he's watching hockey.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

His son plays goalie.

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

Would his glove hand be considered the six hole?

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Jesus has the night off. His backup is in the net.

(actually, he'd still be on the bench backing up the backup just in case)

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

A spokesman for Liberty said the university “is fully committed to maintaining the safety and security of students and staff without exception.”

🤣🤣🤣

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Safe? But ... But ... It stops them from kissing in public. How much safety do you want?

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Kay-El's avatar

Hmmm, to not huff carbon monoxide, get lobbed with a hand grenade and the chastity belt isn’t working correctly?

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cdbunch's avatar

Oh but they're being persecuted by the DoEd. "We've been unfairly targeted. They improved their methodology and found more stuff that we totally did, but no one was supposed to know about. We're Christians, we can't do anything wrong. And if you say we did, well you're targeting us unfairly." And surprise, surprise, 3 Republicans are threatening the Education Secretary for doing zir job.

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RegularJoe's avatar

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Chortling in your joy, are you? 😁

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RegularJoe's avatar

Gonna open up a case of snicker-snack up in here. 😉

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NOGODZ20's avatar

'Twas brillig, and the slithy loves.

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RegularJoe's avatar

Toves.

Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:

😉

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Off with your head.

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RegularJoe's avatar

But I need my head. (Gotta have someplace to put my hat....😉)

https://youtu.be/0ctBpj-o5KE?si=dwf7l_BWpku8FSh2

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

You've got your hands.

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RegularJoe's avatar

You don't need your hands

'Cause you know how it feels

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

So, it is possible to hold religious organizations to any sort of standards after all. Who knew?

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Disfellowshipping is more proof that religious conservatives invented cancel culture.

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OwossoHarpist's avatar

Mormons do the exact same thing JW does when it comes to disfellowshiping people who decided to brake away from their toxic religion.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

The Amish have "shunning." Even THEY describe it as painful...

https://www.amishbaskets.com/blogs/blog/amish-shunning-rules

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Pre-CISE-ly!

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

OT - Good news

𝐒𝐞𝐧. 𝐊𝐲𝐫𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐧 𝐒𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐦𝐚 𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐜𝐞𝐬 𝐬𝐡𝐞 𝐰𝐨𝐧'𝐭 𝐫𝐮𝐧 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐥𝐞𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sen-kyrsten-sinema-announces-run-reelection/story?id=107819614

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Short version : I am about as popular as lauren breitfart in my district and I don't love humiliation play as much as kari lacking.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

I've been predicting this and I'm not even American.😇 I'm pretty sure she's discovered that she could make more money as a lobbyist or something. Honestly, that woman dismays me. It's not as if she started out as cynical moneygrubbing nutcase. Or maybe she just hid it well.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

A bloviator on the 𝐅latulent 𝐍oise 𝐂hannel.

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

OT but important: Holocaust denier Mark Robinson won the Republican primary for the North Carolina gubernatorial race. His Democratic opponent will be state AG Josh Stein, who, yes, is Jewish. Incredible.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

May Stein be all over Robinson for his delusional, toxic views.

It never ceases to amaze me that a minority with their own brutal 400 year history of oppression in this country can be so absolutely insensate toward another group of people who have a far-longer history of oppression (on the order of 5000 years).

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Source ? The Merneptah stele, the first non biblical reference to mention Israelites is from the end of the 13th century BCE. Before it seems they were indistinct from the Canaanites.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

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NOGODZ20's avatar

So more like 2,628 years, give or take (dating from 605 BCE)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Still a helluva long time.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

This part of Middle East was already a hot mess and a war zone long before the Babylonians came to play. Deporting elites and educating their children was a major Egyptian hobby too. The biblical narrative of the Babylonian deportation is misleading, only the nobles and high priests and their families were held hostages. It's their recounting we have now and exaggeration was a common literary trope in Ancient times, it makes a population seem stronger in bad times. Too bad Lex Lata is not here, he would explain this better than I do.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

I think you're missing the point of my comment. I was speaking about the idiocy of one oppressed group denying the oppression of another group when that first group should know better.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Duuuude, links.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"This is in stark contrast from the Democrats’ ideas and agenda that have failed America at the federal level and will fail North Carolina at the state level."

Funny, I could have sworn FDR was a Democrat and Reagan a Republicon. But what do I know ?

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

A lot.

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

Stop appeasing Jeff Spicoli ("Duuuude,..."). That way lies madness! *smiles*

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NOGODZ20's avatar

It was, like, totally not me, dude. :D

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

*Spicoli hilariously orders a pizza to his history class while Mr. Hand is giving a lecture about Cuba*

Mr. Hand: "Mr. Spicoli, what do you think you're doing?"

Spicoli: "Learning about Cuba! Eating some food!"

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cdbunch's avatar

I wish I believed that there were undecided people watching 60 minutes, but it seems the ones responding to MoL bullshit aren't watching 60 minutes but Newsmax, FP(N)C, et.al.

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

"Cleanup on Aisle Wingnut!"

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

"What ideology?" She should have just said communism. She would easily have gotten away with that.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Of course they couldn't answer simple questions- they're used to being interviewed by hack propagandists who answer the questions as they ask them and only expect echoes in reply.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Just occurred to me – she might not have known what ideology meant.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Ideology (n)- "Anything I don't like." - The New Conservative Dictionary Of Words And Stuff

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"Parents send their children to school to be educated, not indoctrinated into ideology.”

Sweet, sweet irony.

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Whitney's avatar

Something I have found to be particularly telling about modern-day Christians and their institutions is that for a group of people who claim to focus on order and everyone playing by the rules, every time money or power comes up, they're the first in line with their hands out. A person could be forgiven for thinking that they don't actually have some all-powerful deity on their side with how often they seek and find ways of getting more of both.

In short form, what's happened here is the Jehovah's Witnesses have refused to stop violating Norwegian law, and now they're receiving the outlined consequences of that refusal. Nobody should be surprised, there is nothing untoward going on, no persecution or bigotry of any kind to be seen. This decision was not made lightly by Norway's courts nor is it unconstitutional as the JWs seem to want to claim; Norway has EVERY right to insist that all those within its borders be treated equally under its laws. From everything I have seen here, Norway's courts are playing entirely fair, and the JW/Christian habit of screaming about persecution every time something doesn't go their way is little more than immature whining on the international scale.

Please, JWs, take your toys and go home. Everyone else wants to have a nice time and can't wait for you to leave so they can do that.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I wouldn't be surprised if they filed a complaint to the European Court of Human Rights.

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Straw's avatar

Me neither.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I've had JWs come by here on and off since we moved here, something over 10 years ago. Honestly, if they show up here one more time, I'm going to find a way to bring up the issue of shunning and rub their noses in it!

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Or you can tell them you are a volunteer for a blood bank and need donations.

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cdbunch's avatar

Vampire is shorter. :) Actually, as a gay man, the FDA won't let them take my blood.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

𝐅𝐃𝐀 𝐝𝐫𝐨𝐩𝐬 𝐛𝐥𝐨𝐨𝐝 𝐝𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐬𝐩𝐞𝐜𝐢𝐟𝐢𝐜 𝐭𝐨 𝐠𝐚𝐲 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐛𝐢𝐬𝐞𝐱𝐮𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐞𝐧

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/fda-drops-blood-donation-restrictions-specific-gay-bisexual/story?id=99253773#:~:text=The%20Food%20and%20Drug%20Administration%20has%20dropped%20all,by%20public%20health%20experts%20and%20gay%20rights%20activists.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

That is so freaking overdue, it's ridiculous.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

So ridiculous. Benewslogin and me were held to different standards when he is the one married.

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cdbunch's avatar

Still, 3 months without anal sex disproportionately excludes gay men and trans women. As does the prohibition of those on PrEP.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

As if straight women never partake in anal.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

*Waiting for denazillon overreaction*

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

That article is from May 11, 2023.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Stupid must be stupid, I don't see how theses policies are science based, AIDS and STIs don't care about who you sleep with 🙄

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

Republicans care.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Same shit here until 2022. If a gay wanted to donate blood he had to abstain from sex for 4 months 🙄

How do you define sexual relationships ? Making out, handjobs, blowjobs ? What are condoms and regular testing useful for then ?

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Tell them you're an atheist. They beat a hasty retreat without another word being spoken.

Always worked for yours truly.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I've identified as an atheist from the first time they came to my door. That first time, the woman said something to the effect of: "Oh, my, I don't believe I've ever met an atheist before. Did something happen to you to cause you to become an atheist.

My answer was simple: "Yeah ... common sense."

The ensuing conversation was polite and cordial, as have been subsequent visits, but I don't blink about where I stand, nor about how I feel about faith (which at least once I told my visitor was equivalent to gullibility!), or my insistence on evidence, if my mind were to be changed at all.

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Matilda's avatar

A commenter on the old Patheos N/R blog said when JWs call, he says 'Sorry, wrong house, no kids here.' I wanted to try this and, 10months later they knocked. I said it, and the woman JW replied 'Oh, but the bible's not just for children,' I asked if she had a computer and recommended she went home and used something called Google to learn how some JW leaders had abused kids and then covered it up. She opened and closed her mouth and then backed down the 6 steps from my door while her male partner at the bottom stayed dumb too!! It was December, my cul de sac was ablaze with xmas displays and lights on our lawns. I wanted to ask if she thought this was a good time of year to suggest we heathens convert so we'd have to do away with all these celebrations that cheer up a dark wet UK winter! And never enjoy buying our kids and g/kids another birthday or xmas present ever again.

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

"A former Jehovah's Witness has offered a rare insight into the religious group, describing it as a cult that "tries to control emotions, thought, information and behavior of a person"."

How is this different from any other religious superstition?

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