Oh, what the hell, I'll go ahead and toss this out: If you came home one day and discovered there were 8 billion bedbugs in your house, would you consider it "the miracle of life"™ or an infestation?
Since zefs (zygotes, embryos, fetuses) don’t develop a brain until quite late into a pregnancy, and sometimes not at all, and our consciousness is a process of our brains, we wouldn’t even realize we existed as a zef at all. There is no evidence that any person ever knew they existed inside the womb, not even the time when our brains were operating, let alone the stage of development that the vast majority of abortions occur. Therefore, how would we like it if we were the one who was aborted is not a valid argument, because we would never know.
A person is not an abortion survivor, ever. Especially if you were considering yourself one because your mother had a fleeting thought about maybe I might have an abortion. The forced birthers love to call people abortion survivors, I’ve heard it before. Even if the mother walked into the clinic to just walk out again without the procedure. That is not what survivor means. If, perhaps a pregnant person took the medications and the pregnancy continued anyway, or if the procedure didn’t end the pregnancy somehow (which is incredibly unlikely as there is no margin of error that would continue a pregnancy, only kill the mother too. Which is rare since Roe v. Wade made abortions safe and safer than giving birth.) maybe then I’ll consider someone survived abortion.
This is the same argument as the “what if we abort the one who cures cancer?” Well, what if we condemn the one who cures cancer to an unwanted pregnancy and destroy her opportunity to get to that point because she’s now stuck in a cycle of poverty she will never leave? (Statistics show that a majority of folks denied abortion end up under the poverty line) or maybe the pregnant person forced to endure the pregnancy they don’t want and die from it?
We can’t think that the actual living human who is aware of their existence could possibly have anything to contribute to the world other than producing another person.
Selfish human that I am, I like to think that were I to cease existing now, my absence would be dearly felt by at least a few people.
If I'd never been born, though, I should hope that no one would have noticed or cared. It's unreasonable to expect someone to mourn for someone who was never there in the first place. The potential for a person is not the same as a person. Try as they might, the forced birther crowd just isn't going to convince me that I should care more about a not-yet-person than I do about a person- as though a stack of blank paper were more worth preserving than a book.
I'll never forget the time my father informed me, "If we'd never had you, we wouldn't miss you." Good times!
Okay, in fairness, the only reason I have a problem with it is my father was an abusive asshole who only made his point that way in order to hurt me. And even if that wasn't the case, and he'd just worded it unfortunately, I was a bit young at the time to be able to separate intention from awkward wording.
Even taking all that into account, though, I still got and agreed with his premise. I've had this conversation with many people since then, and my preferred response to the But You'd Never Have Been Born argument is, "So? In the grand scheme of things, I'm not that important." It tends to bring people up short, when I basically tell them they need to get over themselves, and that I've already gotten over me.
The same pro-forced birth crowd who claim to care so very, very much about what they consider to be the so-called 'unborn' is the very same group of people who show no such concern for the living who are occupying prison cells on death row. Where is the concern for them and their 'souls?'
I'd like to ask Dizzy Gillespie if he supports capital punishment. If he does, does this not make him a liar and a hypocrite?
If she was never born, my grocery bills would be halved and I wouldn't
have to pluck sharpei hair from my clothes with a tweezer. Same for my Rhapsodie and her headbutts*. Someone can land me a time machine ? Even a TARDIS ?
*Rescuing a cuddly and enthusiastic dog nearly as tall as you is not good for your chin and your nose.
A few years after my first child was born I had a miscarriage. Yes, it was upsetting...but I wouldn't have later had my second child if that pregnancy had gone to term. I'm sorry about the miscarriage but I'm glad I have my second child. I can't imagine my life without her, just like if I'd had that "other" baby I wouldn't be able to imagine my life without it!
This is something that I have concluded as well. You cannot compare existence to non-existence to say one is better than the other. How can you compare something to nothing?
The "gift of life" is nonsense. Life is, and that is all we can say. Who is to say that is better or worse than not existing in the first place? We could also talk about the curse of life. Is life a gift or a curse? How can you make that assessment?
“Since the existence of a spirit or soul has not been scientifically PROVEN, it has also NOT BEEN DISPROVEN.”
I can't prove or disprove whether or not you are an idiot, but I have a pretty good idea. I do know you should stop using the word "scientifically".
Omg, all of those posters I thought were trapped in the spiritual realm have reappeared here. It's a miracle!
Oh, what the hell, I'll go ahead and toss this out: If you came home one day and discovered there were 8 billion bedbugs in your house, would you consider it "the miracle of life"™ or an infestation?
Since zefs (zygotes, embryos, fetuses) don’t develop a brain until quite late into a pregnancy, and sometimes not at all, and our consciousness is a process of our brains, we wouldn’t even realize we existed as a zef at all. There is no evidence that any person ever knew they existed inside the womb, not even the time when our brains were operating, let alone the stage of development that the vast majority of abortions occur. Therefore, how would we like it if we were the one who was aborted is not a valid argument, because we would never know.
A person is not an abortion survivor, ever. Especially if you were considering yourself one because your mother had a fleeting thought about maybe I might have an abortion. The forced birthers love to call people abortion survivors, I’ve heard it before. Even if the mother walked into the clinic to just walk out again without the procedure. That is not what survivor means. If, perhaps a pregnant person took the medications and the pregnancy continued anyway, or if the procedure didn’t end the pregnancy somehow (which is incredibly unlikely as there is no margin of error that would continue a pregnancy, only kill the mother too. Which is rare since Roe v. Wade made abortions safe and safer than giving birth.) maybe then I’ll consider someone survived abortion.
This is the same argument as the “what if we abort the one who cures cancer?” Well, what if we condemn the one who cures cancer to an unwanted pregnancy and destroy her opportunity to get to that point because she’s now stuck in a cycle of poverty she will never leave? (Statistics show that a majority of folks denied abortion end up under the poverty line) or maybe the pregnant person forced to endure the pregnancy they don’t want and die from it?
We can’t think that the actual living human who is aware of their existence could possibly have anything to contribute to the world other than producing another person.
Selfish human that I am, I like to think that were I to cease existing now, my absence would be dearly felt by at least a few people.
If I'd never been born, though, I should hope that no one would have noticed or cared. It's unreasonable to expect someone to mourn for someone who was never there in the first place. The potential for a person is not the same as a person. Try as they might, the forced birther crowd just isn't going to convince me that I should care more about a not-yet-person than I do about a person- as though a stack of blank paper were more worth preserving than a book.
I'll never forget the time my father informed me, "If we'd never had you, we wouldn't miss you." Good times!
Okay, in fairness, the only reason I have a problem with it is my father was an abusive asshole who only made his point that way in order to hurt me. And even if that wasn't the case, and he'd just worded it unfortunately, I was a bit young at the time to be able to separate intention from awkward wording.
Even taking all that into account, though, I still got and agreed with his premise. I've had this conversation with many people since then, and my preferred response to the But You'd Never Have Been Born argument is, "So? In the grand scheme of things, I'm not that important." It tends to bring people up short, when I basically tell them they need to get over themselves, and that I've already gotten over me.
The same pro-forced birth crowd who claim to care so very, very much about what they consider to be the so-called 'unborn' is the very same group of people who show no such concern for the living who are occupying prison cells on death row. Where is the concern for them and their 'souls?'
I'd like to ask Dizzy Gillespie if he supports capital punishment. If he does, does this not make him a liar and a hypocrite?
Hey, it works! Great! Glad to “see” you all again.
These same forced birthers don't care about the 'souls' of dead children killed in school shootings.
*Look toward Aria*
If she was never born, my grocery bills would be halved and I wouldn't
have to pluck sharpei hair from my clothes with a tweezer. Same for my Rhapsodie and her headbutts*. Someone can land me a time machine ? Even a TARDIS ?
*Rescuing a cuddly and enthusiastic dog nearly as tall as you is not good for your chin and your nose.
Hello?
"But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 4:3
* I totally concur with dear Koholeth, for the record.
A few years after my first child was born I had a miscarriage. Yes, it was upsetting...but I wouldn't have later had my second child if that pregnancy had gone to term. I'm sorry about the miscarriage but I'm glad I have my second child. I can't imagine my life without her, just like if I'd had that "other" baby I wouldn't be able to imagine my life without it!
Shouldn't all christians be for abortion because then it guarantees that there fetus will get into heaven. I mean isn't that the perfect cheat.
"We wouldn’t force the possibility of conception upon people who aren’t interested in it" I take it you haven't been to Missouri lately.
This is something that I have concluded as well. You cannot compare existence to non-existence to say one is better than the other. How can you compare something to nothing?
The "gift of life" is nonsense. Life is, and that is all we can say. Who is to say that is better or worse than not existing in the first place? We could also talk about the curse of life. Is life a gift or a curse? How can you make that assessment?
It's all blather.