Oh, what the hell, I'll go ahead and toss this out: If you came home one day and discovered there were 8 billion bedbugs in your house, would you consider it "the miracle of life"™ or an infestation?
These "pro-life" people even consider human immigration to be an infestation. They're often the same ones saying "build the wall" and showing no concern for asylum seekers or other desperate people.
Since zefs (zygotes, embryos, fetuses) don’t develop a brain until quite late into a pregnancy, and sometimes not at all, and our consciousness is a process of our brains, we wouldn’t even realize we existed as a zef at all. There is no evidence that any person ever knew they existed inside the womb, not even the time when our brains were operating, let alone the stage of development that the vast majority of abortions occur. Therefore, how would we like it if we were the one who was aborted is not a valid argument, because we would never know.
A person is not an abortion survivor, ever. Especially if you were considering yourself one because your mother had a fleeting thought about maybe I might have an abortion. The forced birthers love to call people abortion survivors, I’ve heard it before. Even if the mother walked into the clinic to just walk out again without the procedure. That is not what survivor means. If, perhaps a pregnant person took the medications and the pregnancy continued anyway, or if the procedure didn’t end the pregnancy somehow (which is incredibly unlikely as there is no margin of error that would continue a pregnancy, only kill the mother too. Which is rare since Roe v. Wade made abortions safe and safer than giving birth.) maybe then I’ll consider someone survived abortion.
This is the same argument as the “what if we abort the one who cures cancer?” Well, what if we condemn the one who cures cancer to an unwanted pregnancy and destroy her opportunity to get to that point because she’s now stuck in a cycle of poverty she will never leave? (Statistics show that a majority of folks denied abortion end up under the poverty line) or maybe the pregnant person forced to endure the pregnancy they don’t want and die from it?
We can’t think that the actual living human who is aware of their existence could possibly have anything to contribute to the world other than producing another person.
When a forced birther says something about how many Einsteins or Hawkings have been aborted I like to ask them, "Yes, but how many Pol Pots and Jeffrey Dahmers have been aborted?" I love how they are too stupid to realize it works both ways.
We only become whole people through the use of our senses, forming memories about the things we experience through that perception, comparing memories to form preferences, building preferences into a personality. But the womb is nature's sensory deprivation tank. It probably needs to be in order for the senses to form properly- in order for your sense of smell, for instance, to give accurate information to your brain, your brain first needs a baseline of not-smelling in order to perceive the difference and record it. In that stable, liquid environment, all five senses are muted, the things they can perceive limited to the single constant of that environment- an environment as close to nothingness as nature can provide (and also likely helpful in teaching our senses to ignore the subtle sounds and sensations internal to our own bodies, once we emerge).
No perception means no experience, no memory... and therefore, no person. We literally cannot start building what makes us people until we're out in the world, conscious, using our senses to perceive things.
Even were that not the case? The person growing that *potential* human in their body has rights, and one of those rights is bodily autonomy- and that right must be absolute, because if a person cannot have the right to do as they will with their own flesh, they have no other rights that matter. Their *whole* body is their own, incubator assembly included. Even if someone could prove the existence of a soul, even if they could prove that there is a soul within the body before birth... it would *still* be wrong to force a person to carry a pregnancy to term against their will.
Nevermind the fact that the pharmaceutical companies they fully support will perform a "late term abortion" on that person, I once asked those people "what if you put Jesus into the ICE cages?"
Selfish human that I am, I like to think that were I to cease existing now, my absence would be dearly felt by at least a few people.
If I'd never been born, though, I should hope that no one would have noticed or cared. It's unreasonable to expect someone to mourn for someone who was never there in the first place. The potential for a person is not the same as a person. Try as they might, the forced birther crowd just isn't going to convince me that I should care more about a not-yet-person than I do about a person- as though a stack of blank paper were more worth preserving than a book.
I'll never forget the time my father informed me, "If we'd never had you, we wouldn't miss you." Good times!
Okay, in fairness, the only reason I have a problem with it is my father was an abusive asshole who only made his point that way in order to hurt me. And even if that wasn't the case, and he'd just worded it unfortunately, I was a bit young at the time to be able to separate intention from awkward wording.
Even taking all that into account, though, I still got and agreed with his premise. I've had this conversation with many people since then, and my preferred response to the But You'd Never Have Been Born argument is, "So? In the grand scheme of things, I'm not that important." It tends to bring people up short, when I basically tell them they need to get over themselves, and that I've already gotten over me.
The same pro-forced birth crowd who claim to care so very, very much about what they consider to be the so-called 'unborn' is the very same group of people who show no such concern for the living who are occupying prison cells on death row. Where is the concern for them and their 'souls?'
I'd like to ask Dizzy Gillespie if he supports capital punishment. If he does, does this not make him a liar and a hypocrite?
If she was never born, my grocery bills would be halved and I wouldn't
have to pluck sharpei hair from my clothes with a tweezer. Same for my Rhapsodie and her headbutts*. Someone can land me a time machine ? Even a TARDIS ?
*Rescuing a cuddly and enthusiastic dog nearly as tall as you is not good for your chin and your nose.
A few years after my first child was born I had a miscarriage. Yes, it was upsetting...but I wouldn't have later had my second child if that pregnancy had gone to term. I'm sorry about the miscarriage but I'm glad I have my second child. I can't imagine my life without her, just like if I'd had that "other" baby I wouldn't be able to imagine my life without it!
What do you think rape is but forcing the possibility of conception upon people who aren’t interested in it? We just wouldn’t do that to the males, we do it to females all the fucking time.
This is something that I have concluded as well. You cannot compare existence to non-existence to say one is better than the other. How can you compare something to nothing?
The "gift of life" is nonsense. Life is, and that is all we can say. Who is to say that is better or worse than not existing in the first place? We could also talk about the curse of life. Is life a gift or a curse? How can you make that assessment?
“Since the existence of a spirit or soul has not been scientifically PROVEN, it has also NOT BEEN DISPROVEN.”
I can't prove or disprove whether or not you are an idiot, but I have a pretty good idea. I do know you should stop using the word "scientifically".
Omg, all of those posters I thought were trapped in the spiritual realm have reappeared here. It's a miracle!
Praise Azathoth.
I'm sorry but this week my devotions are to Nyarlathotep
Hello Pam
Hi, Zorg.
Hi Boreal.
Hi CK.
Someone must have lost the spiritual key to Tawreos cage.
Oh, what the hell, I'll go ahead and toss this out: If you came home one day and discovered there were 8 billion bedbugs in your house, would you consider it "the miracle of life"™ or an infestation?
These "pro-life" people even consider human immigration to be an infestation. They're often the same ones saying "build the wall" and showing no concern for asylum seekers or other desperate people.
Since zefs (zygotes, embryos, fetuses) don’t develop a brain until quite late into a pregnancy, and sometimes not at all, and our consciousness is a process of our brains, we wouldn’t even realize we existed as a zef at all. There is no evidence that any person ever knew they existed inside the womb, not even the time when our brains were operating, let alone the stage of development that the vast majority of abortions occur. Therefore, how would we like it if we were the one who was aborted is not a valid argument, because we would never know.
A person is not an abortion survivor, ever. Especially if you were considering yourself one because your mother had a fleeting thought about maybe I might have an abortion. The forced birthers love to call people abortion survivors, I’ve heard it before. Even if the mother walked into the clinic to just walk out again without the procedure. That is not what survivor means. If, perhaps a pregnant person took the medications and the pregnancy continued anyway, or if the procedure didn’t end the pregnancy somehow (which is incredibly unlikely as there is no margin of error that would continue a pregnancy, only kill the mother too. Which is rare since Roe v. Wade made abortions safe and safer than giving birth.) maybe then I’ll consider someone survived abortion.
This is the same argument as the “what if we abort the one who cures cancer?” Well, what if we condemn the one who cures cancer to an unwanted pregnancy and destroy her opportunity to get to that point because she’s now stuck in a cycle of poverty she will never leave? (Statistics show that a majority of folks denied abortion end up under the poverty line) or maybe the pregnant person forced to endure the pregnancy they don’t want and die from it?
We can’t think that the actual living human who is aware of their existence could possibly have anything to contribute to the world other than producing another person.
When a forced birther says something about how many Einsteins or Hawkings have been aborted I like to ask them, "Yes, but how many Pol Pots and Jeffrey Dahmers have been aborted?" I love how they are too stupid to realize it works both ways.
Also ask them many Einsteins or Hawkings were gay kids who took their own lives after being bullied or kids shot in school.
Let them know that Hawkings only lived this long because of socialism and universal healthcare.
Or Turings.
We only become whole people through the use of our senses, forming memories about the things we experience through that perception, comparing memories to form preferences, building preferences into a personality. But the womb is nature's sensory deprivation tank. It probably needs to be in order for the senses to form properly- in order for your sense of smell, for instance, to give accurate information to your brain, your brain first needs a baseline of not-smelling in order to perceive the difference and record it. In that stable, liquid environment, all five senses are muted, the things they can perceive limited to the single constant of that environment- an environment as close to nothingness as nature can provide (and also likely helpful in teaching our senses to ignore the subtle sounds and sensations internal to our own bodies, once we emerge).
No perception means no experience, no memory... and therefore, no person. We literally cannot start building what makes us people until we're out in the world, conscious, using our senses to perceive things.
Even were that not the case? The person growing that *potential* human in their body has rights, and one of those rights is bodily autonomy- and that right must be absolute, because if a person cannot have the right to do as they will with their own flesh, they have no other rights that matter. Their *whole* body is their own, incubator assembly included. Even if someone could prove the existence of a soul, even if they could prove that there is a soul within the body before birth... it would *still* be wrong to force a person to carry a pregnancy to term against their will.
"What if we abort the one who cures cancer?"
Nevermind the fact that the pharmaceutical companies they fully support will perform a "late term abortion" on that person, I once asked those people "what if you put Jesus into the ICE cages?"
They were surprisingly very quiet on that topic.
Selfish human that I am, I like to think that were I to cease existing now, my absence would be dearly felt by at least a few people.
If I'd never been born, though, I should hope that no one would have noticed or cared. It's unreasonable to expect someone to mourn for someone who was never there in the first place. The potential for a person is not the same as a person. Try as they might, the forced birther crowd just isn't going to convince me that I should care more about a not-yet-person than I do about a person- as though a stack of blank paper were more worth preserving than a book.
I'll never forget the time my father informed me, "If we'd never had you, we wouldn't miss you." Good times!
Okay, in fairness, the only reason I have a problem with it is my father was an abusive asshole who only made his point that way in order to hurt me. And even if that wasn't the case, and he'd just worded it unfortunately, I was a bit young at the time to be able to separate intention from awkward wording.
Even taking all that into account, though, I still got and agreed with his premise. I've had this conversation with many people since then, and my preferred response to the But You'd Never Have Been Born argument is, "So? In the grand scheme of things, I'm not that important." It tends to bring people up short, when I basically tell them they need to get over themselves, and that I've already gotten over me.
The same pro-forced birth crowd who claim to care so very, very much about what they consider to be the so-called 'unborn' is the very same group of people who show no such concern for the living who are occupying prison cells on death row. Where is the concern for them and their 'souls?'
I'd like to ask Dizzy Gillespie if he supports capital punishment. If he does, does this not make him a liar and a hypocrite?
Nice to see you again. 🙂
You too. Sorry I suddenly went silent. Computer issues.
Dizzy is dead, you're going to need a clairvoyant.
Glad to see you made it here, : ).
Just found out that you can't edit a reply to a comment that's been deleted. : )
Edit: Now the edit has showed up. This site is going to take some time to get use to.
Hi Larry!
And your brother Darryl, and your other brother Darryl.
Hi Nogodz
Hey, CK. :)
Apologies for not responding before. Got 'puter troubles in the last 24 hours.
No problem ;-)) Damn 'puters - got to love them, got to hate them!
Hey, it works! Great! Glad to “see” you all again.
Good to see you! It's so nice when another familiar 'face' pops up. :)
Hello CageGirl ;-))
These same forced birthers don't care about the 'souls' of dead children killed in school shootings.
Absotively posilute.
*Look toward Aria*
If she was never born, my grocery bills would be halved and I wouldn't
have to pluck sharpei hair from my clothes with a tweezer. Same for my Rhapsodie and her headbutts*. Someone can land me a time machine ? Even a TARDIS ?
*Rescuing a cuddly and enthusiastic dog nearly as tall as you is not good for your chin and your nose.
Enchanté de vous re-encontrer. Bisux pour Aria
She still prefer chicken and scallops :D
;-))
Hello?
"But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 4:3
* I totally concur with dear Koholeth, for the record.
A few years after my first child was born I had a miscarriage. Yes, it was upsetting...but I wouldn't have later had my second child if that pregnancy had gone to term. I'm sorry about the miscarriage but I'm glad I have my second child. I can't imagine my life without her, just like if I'd had that "other" baby I wouldn't be able to imagine my life without it!
Shouldn't all christians be for abortion because then it guarantees that there fetus will get into heaven. I mean isn't that the perfect cheat.
No baptism, not going to heaven.
They disagree.. https://godwords.org/can-you-go-to-heaven-if-youre-not-baptized/
For centuries they have been pestering the world with one doctrine, now it's another, and I think : well, yeah, whatever! Fuck them, nonetheless!
Agreed.
"We wouldn’t force the possibility of conception upon people who aren’t interested in it" I take it you haven't been to Missouri lately.
What do you think rape is but forcing the possibility of conception upon people who aren’t interested in it? We just wouldn’t do that to the males, we do it to females all the fucking time.
This is something that I have concluded as well. You cannot compare existence to non-existence to say one is better than the other. How can you compare something to nothing?
The "gift of life" is nonsense. Life is, and that is all we can say. Who is to say that is better or worse than not existing in the first place? We could also talk about the curse of life. Is life a gift or a curse? How can you make that assessment?
It's all blather.