Every day, there is a story somewhere about a member of clergy doing horrible things to children. Every day there are other clergy covering up for those misdeeds.
The first step to regain trust? 𝗦𝘁𝗼𝗽 𝗮𝗯𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗸𝗶𝗱𝘀. The second step? Turn in ALL of the abusers to secular authorities. In-house punishment is part of the cover-up.
Certainly, "Stop abusing kids" would be a monumental first step, considering that it's pretty clear that the RCC hasn't done anything substantial to reduce its predilection for molesting the youngest of its members.
I would say that the second step would be: "UTTER TRANSPARENCY," which would include cooperating with local law enforcement in the investigation into child sex abuse or abuse in general, making themselves TOTALLY AVAILABLE to scrutiny.
Would be nice. STILL not holding my breath on that one.
The crash in the polling of trust in clergy is as welcome as it is overdue. From the Spotlight reportage on predator priests in the Boston archdiocese to the multiple posts on the topic that Hemant has made since he first started his blog, the word is getting out that there are men of the cloth who take advantage of their position and authority to manipulate and abuse their congregants or parishioners.
Ordinarily, I'd say that maybe this news might spur them on to clean up their act, yet I saw no such action after either 60 Minutes or the Boston Globe did their work. No, it's going to take a lot more such news articles and A LOT MORE PRESSURE before churches clean up their act.
That certainly lit a fire under the Bobby Jones segregation academy. Unfortunately, it spurred them to use abortion as a ruse to get their flock to the polls to vote against sanity.
Well, there are a lot of progressive clergy out there condemning the actions of their conservative brethren, but their reach is generally a lot smaller than the conservatives.
Which is why, win or lose the primary, I like James Talerico getting a platform like Colbert's. He uses Christian language to critique conservative Christianity and people need to hear that. (Thanks, CBS, for being douchebags and making it a "THEY don't want you to hear this guy!" thing)
The Colbert interview with James Talarico was flat-out BRILLIANT on multiple levels. Certainly, Talarico had a LOT of good things to say, things that I wish some MAGA people would be willing to hear (and probably won't). The other major element was Colbert basically saying, "IN YO' FACE, CBS!!!"
At this point, Colbert has CBS by the short hairs. For the next 3 months, I suspect he will be able to do as he pleases within sane limits, and Bari Weiss & Co. will have to grin and bear it.
As for what happens after May, I have no doubt but that Colbert will land on his feet. I'm not certain I can say the same for what used to be the Tiffany Network.
I really liked the interview but J. Talarico is much too Jesusy for me. Very religious people cannot really be trusted in office because they will eventually be put in a position where they will have to choose between their job or their god (guess what they pick). Jasmine Crockett is a firebrand and she gets the job done.
They believe in a god with whom nothing is impossible. If they can believe that, then treating others with dignity and respect shouldn't be impossible for them. :)
No true Scotsman logic applies here: No True Christian accepts that gay people are worthy of God's mercy. All True Christians believe Jesus is their lord and savior.
It’s funny because there are no white men in the Bible. Cis and heterosexual aren’t even discussed weren’t even concepts as we know them at the time it was written.
The Catholic Church probably has the furthest way to go, as it comes to how they treat their parishioners, never mind the criminal actions they've been guilty of. And the fire-and-brimstone approach that evangelicals seem to lean on does no one any favors, yet it continues to be a go-to for them.
I wonder if someone might suggest to them that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Don't forget: ENABLERS! This shit would have stopped a LONG time ago if higher-level clergy had taken positive action to stop the depredation of priests who groom and abuse their charges. The monsignors, bishops, archbishops and cardinals who sweep this shit under the rug are at least as guilty as those committing the original crimes.
And, lifelong atheist that I am, I have to admit there are a few earnest and honest believers among the clergy. I think we saw one this week when Stephen Colbert interviewed James Talerico. But, I honestly don’t think there is a single one of those among the talibangelicals.
Talarico is impressive as all get out, and I wish we didn't have two such stars as he and Jasmine Crockett competing against each other for the same Senate seat. The one GOOD thing is that I would expect the campaign to be a civil and informative one.
And I wish I could say the same for the other side of the aisle.
Even though I’ve known a few members of the clergy that I liked and thought were decent people, I think I was born with an instinctive mistrust of the clergy. I couldn’t articulate it as a child, but I was always uneasy around people who view the world through the fog of magical thinking and special pleading. It didn’t take me long to realize the clergy does not speak with anything close to a consistent voice.
I've said many times what a decent and engaged guy the pastor at my church in Illinois was, and I know nothing of him to the contrary. How sad is it that there are others of his ilk who are not so motivated.
I wonder: if the good ones got more attention, would that inspire the not-so-good ones to clean up their act? Worth a thought, at least.
I love how you can look at those graphs and immediately see which major events affected which professions. For example:
Doctors and nurses both get an upward tick during the early pandemic, but it reverses as the right-wing propaganda machine screams into overdrive after Chump leaves office.
Funeral directors take a dive around the same time. Who'da thunk the bereaved don't like getting price-gouged on funeral expenses when people around them are dropping like flies, eh?
Trust in teachers declines as the wingnut war on education escalates...
Police get a big bump in the '90s and early '00s as the glut of procedural copaganda shows takes off, then their approval rate abruptly sinks as reality repeatedly slaps TV audiences in the face.
I find it mildly encouraging that trust in unions has been steadily rising, although it's still depressingly low after decades of anti-labor propaganda.
Bankers take a 𝘣𝘪𝘨 dive right around the '08 crashout (oddly, though, accountants don't share the same downward trend).
...and clergy, of course, rape and steal their way right down into the gutter, lying all the way.
The Church of Scotland is, on average, closing two churches per week. It isn't that the Scots see religious leaders as unethical, it is just that there is little or no interest in religion.
I remember the Borders book store that I used to go to. It had a coffee shop attached to it, and though I never patronized it, I always thought that was a nice touch.
At least when the Borders went belly-up, we still had a Barnes & Noble nearby, and while I'm not 100% certain, it may have had a coffee shop associated with it as well. Down here, there's another B&N next door in Canton, which is a good thing.
We still have independent bookshops, particularly funnily enough, in smaller provincial towns. I always buy something from them when we go on holiday, for my holiday reading.
A bit tricky with this one, it is huge. I suspect that it will probably end up like this Gothic monstrosity in Lancashire, on the market since 2006 and gradually falling into dereliction.
Small churches do get repurposed, in Scotland they become village halls or holiday lets amongst other things. In England, I have seen them used for architectural studios, artists workshops and even antique shops.
It's certainly true that the Scots, like others in Western Europe, have lost interest in religion. In 2000, about 12% of the population regularly attended church, by 2016 this had dropped to 7%.
When it comes to religion, the true Scotsman appears to be apathetic.
I was in a church yesterday, to attend the funeral of a friends father. It seems that funerals are the only reason I have visited churches for the last 30 years.
Looking at the graph, the steep slide began ~late 90s. About the time the internet was taking off for the public at large. So not only news about scandals getting out but also information that so much of what clergy have to say is just bullshit.
I noticed in the second chart that even Republican leaning folks have a 36% rating on honesty/ethics of clergy. Though not quite as low as Democrat leaning at 21%, even Republicans are finding clergy a skeevy bunch. Can’t imagine why. 🙄
Of course nurses have the highest rating based on the Gallup poll. They generally and objectively assist people, unlike most of the clergy. Especially the hot, naughty ones, like the nurse from Blink-182's Enema of the State. Remember her?
Given the endless religious scandals and the fanatigelicals siding with Trump the Cancerous Lump, 27% is WAY too hgh.
Telemarketers were at 5%. They strike me as more trustworthy.
Kind of hard to take moral advice seriously from people who fail (and have failed) the easiest moral questions in history.
I thought the same.
𝐶𝑎𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑓𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑑𝑜 𝑎𝑛𝑦𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛 𝑡𝑟𝑢𝑠𝑡?
Every day, there is a story somewhere about a member of clergy doing horrible things to children. Every day there are other clergy covering up for those misdeeds.
The first step to regain trust? 𝗦𝘁𝗼𝗽 𝗮𝗯𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗸𝗶𝗱𝘀. The second step? Turn in ALL of the abusers to secular authorities. In-house punishment is part of the cover-up.
Certainly, "Stop abusing kids" would be a monumental first step, considering that it's pretty clear that the RCC hasn't done anything substantial to reduce its predilection for molesting the youngest of its members.
I would say that the second step would be: "UTTER TRANSPARENCY," which would include cooperating with local law enforcement in the investigation into child sex abuse or abuse in general, making themselves TOTALLY AVAILABLE to scrutiny.
Would be nice. STILL not holding my breath on that one.
The crash in the polling of trust in clergy is as welcome as it is overdue. From the Spotlight reportage on predator priests in the Boston archdiocese to the multiple posts on the topic that Hemant has made since he first started his blog, the word is getting out that there are men of the cloth who take advantage of their position and authority to manipulate and abuse their congregants or parishioners.
Ordinarily, I'd say that maybe this news might spur them on to clean up their act, yet I saw no such action after either 60 Minutes or the Boston Globe did their work. No, it's going to take a lot more such news articles and A LOT MORE PRESSURE before churches clean up their act.
Start with taxation. That ought to get a rise out of them.
And follow with investigations and ARRESTS!
Call it underaged taxation. Then it will REALLY get a ‘rise’ out of thrm.
That certainly lit a fire under the Bobby Jones segregation academy. Unfortunately, it spurred them to use abortion as a ruse to get their flock to the polls to vote against sanity.
Still can't find my shocked face.
Try this one ... :-|
Well, there are a lot of progressive clergy out there condemning the actions of their conservative brethren, but their reach is generally a lot smaller than the conservatives.
Which is why, win or lose the primary, I like James Talerico getting a platform like Colbert's. He uses Christian language to critique conservative Christianity and people need to hear that. (Thanks, CBS, for being douchebags and making it a "THEY don't want you to hear this guy!" thing)
The Colbert interview with James Talarico was flat-out BRILLIANT on multiple levels. Certainly, Talarico had a LOT of good things to say, things that I wish some MAGA people would be willing to hear (and probably won't). The other major element was Colbert basically saying, "IN YO' FACE, CBS!!!"
Genuinely epic!
It's not like CBS can fire him twice.
At this point, Colbert has CBS by the short hairs. For the next 3 months, I suspect he will be able to do as he pleases within sane limits, and Bari Weiss & Co. will have to grin and bear it.
As for what happens after May, I have no doubt but that Colbert will land on his feet. I'm not certain I can say the same for what used to be the Tiffany Network.
Bari will posture and try to reel him, in but will fail.,
I really liked the interview but J. Talarico is much too Jesusy for me. Very religious people cannot really be trusted in office because they will eventually be put in a position where they will have to choose between their job or their god (guess what they pick). Jasmine Crockett is a firebrand and she gets the job done.
To regain trust, the clergy is going to have to rein in their fire-and-brimstone approach in dealing with LGBTQs.
And stop treating women, POCs and children like second class citizens while they're at it.
You want them to see people who are not cis-het white men as 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦? That's a tall order.
They believe in a god with whom nothing is impossible. If they can believe that, then treating others with dignity and respect shouldn't be impossible for them. :)
"But, but, why do you hate jesus?"
I might turn that around and ask, "Why do you hate people who are doing you no harm?"
Watch 'em squirm at that one!
The easiest way to get people to do what you want is to give them someone else to hate.
Which Jesus? The commie, hippie Jesus who was all about loving your neighbor and not judging.
Or the narcissist who couldn't stand you loving your family more than him.
Just rethuglican Jeebus…
No true Scotsman logic applies here: No True Christian accepts that gay people are worthy of God's mercy. All True Christians believe Jesus is their lord and savior.
Now get the fuck out of my church.
Because they have had to swallow the shame of being secretly gay or bisexual their whole lives.
It’s funny because there are no white men in the Bible. Cis and heterosexual aren’t even discussed weren’t even concepts as we know them at the time it was written.
Jesus is the whitest person ever!
Fun fact: In Norway Jesus was for centuries called "Kvite Krist". In English it would be app. White Jesus.
Jesus is just all right with me.
The Catholic Church probably has the furthest way to go, as it comes to how they treat their parishioners, never mind the criminal actions they've been guilty of. And the fire-and-brimstone approach that evangelicals seem to lean on does no one any favors, yet it continues to be a go-to for them.
I wonder if someone might suggest to them that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Then they won't be the destructive, patriarchal, organization we all abhor!
Clergy=pedophiles, rapists, liars and grifting scum.
Don't forget: ENABLERS! This shit would have stopped a LONG time ago if higher-level clergy had taken positive action to stop the depredation of priests who groom and abuse their charges. The monsignors, bishops, archbishops and cardinals who sweep this shit under the rug are at least as guilty as those committing the original crimes.
And they deserve the same level of judgment.
And, lifelong atheist that I am, I have to admit there are a few earnest and honest believers among the clergy. I think we saw one this week when Stephen Colbert interviewed James Talerico. But, I honestly don’t think there is a single one of those among the talibangelicals.
Talarico is impressive as all get out, and I wish we didn't have two such stars as he and Jasmine Crockett competing against each other for the same Senate seat. The one GOOD thing is that I would expect the campaign to be a civil and informative one.
And I wish I could say the same for the other side of the aisle.
Even though I’ve known a few members of the clergy that I liked and thought were decent people, I think I was born with an instinctive mistrust of the clergy. I couldn’t articulate it as a child, but I was always uneasy around people who view the world through the fog of magical thinking and special pleading. It didn’t take me long to realize the clergy does not speak with anything close to a consistent voice.
How could they in a religion with over 45,000 sects?
I've said many times what a decent and engaged guy the pastor at my church in Illinois was, and I know nothing of him to the contrary. How sad is it that there are others of his ilk who are not so motivated.
I wonder: if the good ones got more attention, would that inspire the not-so-good ones to clean up their act? Worth a thought, at least.
Nope.
I love how you can look at those graphs and immediately see which major events affected which professions. For example:
Doctors and nurses both get an upward tick during the early pandemic, but it reverses as the right-wing propaganda machine screams into overdrive after Chump leaves office.
Funeral directors take a dive around the same time. Who'da thunk the bereaved don't like getting price-gouged on funeral expenses when people around them are dropping like flies, eh?
Trust in teachers declines as the wingnut war on education escalates...
Police get a big bump in the '90s and early '00s as the glut of procedural copaganda shows takes off, then their approval rate abruptly sinks as reality repeatedly slaps TV audiences in the face.
I find it mildly encouraging that trust in unions has been steadily rising, although it's still depressingly low after decades of anti-labor propaganda.
Bankers take a 𝘣𝘪𝘨 dive right around the '08 crashout (oddly, though, accountants don't share the same downward trend).
...and clergy, of course, rape and steal their way right down into the gutter, lying all the way.
There's also something telling when trust in the Congress is in the cellar right next to car salespeople.
Both are manipulating you into spending money you don't have for something that doesn't work.
We drove through a village called Caputh on the way home the other day. It has quite a pretty church, dating back to 1798.
If you like it, then it is for sale - https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/87282174#/?channel=COM_BUY
The Church of Scotland is, on average, closing two churches per week. It isn't that the Scots see religious leaders as unethical, it is just that there is little or no interest in religion.
EDIT: Missing word
For irony's sake alone, had I the money, I would buy a defunct church.
I'd turn it into a library. With a telescope dome in place of the steeple.
Religious texts could still have their own little corner, of course... in the fiction section.
Maybe turn a portion of it into a coffee house ... "with REAL good music and organic refreshments?" 😁
All one of those bookshops you have in the US with a coffee shop attached – that sells nice cake.
I remember the Borders book store that I used to go to. It had a coffee shop attached to it, and though I never patronized it, I always thought that was a nice touch.
Now you have a better chance of finding a drive-in movie theater than a bookstore. With or without coffee shop.
At least when the Borders went belly-up, we still had a Barnes & Noble nearby, and while I'm not 100% certain, it may have had a coffee shop associated with it as well. Down here, there's another B&N next door in Canton, which is a good thing.
Then, too, I just plain like bookstores!
We still have independent bookshops, particularly funnily enough, in smaller provincial towns. I always buy something from them when we go on holiday, for my holiday reading.
A bit tricky with this one, it is huge. I suspect that it will probably end up like this Gothic monstrosity in Lancashire, on the market since 2006 and gradually falling into dereliction.
https://ibb.co/gZtvnJL3
Small churches do get repurposed, in Scotland they become village halls or holiday lets amongst other things. In England, I have seen them used for architectural studios, artists workshops and even antique shops.
No true Scotsman, then?
It's certainly true that the Scots, like others in Western Europe, have lost interest in religion. In 2000, about 12% of the population regularly attended church, by 2016 this had dropped to 7%.
When it comes to religion, the true Scotsman appears to be apathetic.
Whew! Talk about the US being behind the curve! 😝
I was in a church yesterday, to attend the funeral of a friends father. It seems that funerals are the only reason I have visited churches for the last 30 years.
Looking at the graph, the steep slide began ~late 90s. About the time the internet was taking off for the public at large. So not only news about scandals getting out but also information that so much of what clergy have to say is just bullshit.
A long time ago, ThunderF00t opined that the internet is where religions go to die. That statement continues to prove out, time and time again.
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
I noticed in the second chart that even Republican leaning folks have a 36% rating on honesty/ethics of clergy. Though not quite as low as Democrat leaning at 21%, even Republicans are finding clergy a skeevy bunch. Can’t imagine why. 🙄
Grifters don't like competition?
Lol, that’s probably it
Of course nurses have the highest rating based on the Gallup poll. They generally and objectively assist people, unlike most of the clergy. Especially the hot, naughty ones, like the nurse from Blink-182's Enema of the State. Remember her?
I was too busy watching the 3 naked guys hitting on her.
Note to self. Do not – repeat do not Google that with safe search set to "off".
I'm sure someone beat me to it, but *damn*, to end up 10 points lower than cops and 5 points lower than lawyers, you must have really screwed up.
And yet they still wield far more political power than anyone else. Weird.