290 Comments

I think a big part of why conservative Christians are so obsessed with forcing their religion into the public schools stems from just how badly churches have failed at pushing their message to the same age demographic. At the end of the day, the religious right simply does not believe in genuine education, let alone critical thinking.

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That's been the history of christianity from the jump: what they can't accomplish by persuasion, they'll accomplish by force. There's a reason people are turning away from organized religion in droves; this 'released time' nonsense is a backlash to that.

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The next step after force is murder. See the Crusades, witch burnings, forced conversions at sword point, etc. for proof. Trump has said often enough that he intends to purge the country of the Evangelical's list of enemies. "Leftists, atheists, etc." I think he and his handlers mean it. We're very close to the concentration camps and ovens, IMHO. When they tell you who they are, believe them.

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I don't think the parents who demand this are trying to increase their church's numbers. I think they are trying to decrease their own kid's exposure to secular subjects.

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It can be both.

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Could be you are correct.

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You are correct. That is because genuine education and critical thinking is the antidote to right-wing religious extremism. Religious zealots need citizens dumbed down and gullible because extremists are like a virus that needs a weak immune system to flourish.

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👆👆👆👆👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏🎯

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The way I look at it, it is a territorial pissing. Similar to how dogs mark their territory, it says "this is my Christian domain". And they think they are being super sneaky and getting to the unchurched by using the school system. They also don't have to produce results, merely make the rubes who support Lifewise believe that is the case. You can't tell me 45 minutes once a week can accomplish ANYTHING, half that 45 minutes is going to be getting kids to be quiet and bribing them with treats. I even saw that kids were just playing UNO. That doesn't mean it shouldn't go away and TST's work is necessary, and they also need to up the ante on the treats and fun.

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Look they are planning on indoctrination to replace the public schools they are defunding and replacing with child marriage, elimination of child labor laws, and drafting for the military only from public schools, not private schools. The future of American Children is not good.

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The fact that people focus like a laser on the word 'satanic' and dismiss the actual content of the HAIL program shows 1) deeply prejudicial views of any religion other than christianity; 2) that this released time program is clearly designed to promote christianity by government in violation of the Establishment Clause; 3) that christians are a bunch of hypocrites whose privilege all these years causes them to view equal time for other belief systems as an infringement on their favored position.

All of which, it's important to point out, is why the First Amendment's Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses were added to our Constitution in the first place. Government, and that includes public schools, is supposed to remain neutral on religion. When it fails to do so, as the OH legislature has done here, it's only fair for other religious groups to take advantage of the same opportunity that was set aside for christians. And THAT's the real crux of the complaints: that other belief groups are asserting their right to take advantage of a privilege that was clearly designed to benefit christians and only christians.

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"It’s not fair! Those evil not Christians are doing exactly what us good Christians are doing! That shouldn't be allowed!"

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Waaa! Waaaa!!

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I can't wait to see a Madrassa do this.

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I would pay to see that! Top dollar.

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"This is precisely why we should officially be a Christian nation."

Not a student of history, are you? The 7 key founders saw all the wars waged by Christians upon not only other religions like the bloody Crusades but between sects of the Christian religion itself and wanted no part of it here. We fought a revolution to escape the tyranny of a Christian empire and a mere man who thought he had a divine right to rule from across an ocean.

We have a secular government for a reason. Why do Christians hate the USA?

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They also had a more recent, practical example of the failure of theocracy to draw wisdom from, right here on American shores: the Massachusetts Bay Colony, which famously was such an uptight Puritan shitshow that a whole bunch of its residents fucked off and founded Rhode Island so they could live somewhere more secular.

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You realize that those Puritans left England because they were Cromwell supporters and responsible for beheading King Charles 1st. They outlawed Christmas, Easter, theaters, Music and singing except religious hymns in Church, and were such a sour, humorless bunch that when Cromwell died, the English begged his son to return as King. So a lot of these miserable people left for Protestant Holland who didn't want them either. So they ended up here and kept busy breaking treaties and killing neighboring Indians, hanging Quakers, beating naked women tied to the back of carts through towns during winter. This is besides the witch hanging. They are a major reason the Founders insisted on Separation of Church and State. No one wanted Puritans in charge.

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A minor point; the Commonwealth neither outlawed nor abolished Christmas, Easter and other holidays. It was much worse. The holidays were recast as days of religious observance. Church services were compulsory and severe fines were levied for contravention along with penalties for non-enforcement of the law.

'April 1650: An Act for the better Observation of the Lords-Day, Days of Thanksgiving and Humiliation.', in Acts and Ordinances of the Interregnum, 1642-1660. Edited by C H Firth, R S Rait( London, 1911), British History Online, accessed December 6, 2024, https://www.british-history.ac.uk/no-series/acts-ordinances-interregnum/pp383-387a.

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No mention of the witch hunts in the murkan colonies?

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Yup. I normally include that example of Christian rule a century prior to the founding of the nation.

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𝐼 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑡 𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑖-𝐿𝑖𝑓𝑒𝑤𝑖𝑠𝑒 𝑔𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑝 ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑔𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑒𝑙𝑒𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑦 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑚𝑦 𝑘𝑖𝑑𝑠 𝑎𝑡𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑑 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑠 𝑠ℎ𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑛𝑎𝑚𝑒, “𝐻𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝐴𝑐𝑎𝑑𝑒𝑚𝑦,” 𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑜𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑏𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒 “𝑆𝑎𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑐 𝑇𝑒𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑒.”

𝐼𝑡'𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑎 𝑡𝑟𝑢𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑡'𝑠 𝑎 𝑚𝑜𝑐𝑘𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑎 𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑒𝑢𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑡𝑡𝑎𝑐𝑘 𝑎 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑔𝑟𝑎𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒𝑑 𝑛𝑜 𝑖𝑠𝑠𝑢𝑒𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑢𝑝𝑝𝑜𝑟𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑏𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑎𝑡 𝑙𝑎𝑟𝑔𝑒.

Mr Ferguson:

You are completely missing the point. The Satanic Temple is not trying to attack a program that has caused no issues. They are trying to remind you that nowhere in the constitution does it state the the word religion only applies to Christianity, as much as you would like it to.

If the public schools allow a Christian sponsored religious program, they 𝗺𝘂𝘀𝘁 allow any non-Christian religious program. That is what religious freedom is supposed to be about. Not your Christian Nationalist idea that religious freedom only applies to the thousands of Christian sects in this country.

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I should also like to see his definition of "a true religion."

Is that a religion that is based on provable historical facts and real entities, both human and non-human? Does it reference only proven historical facts? Is there any reliance on non-scientific or non-testable occurrences?

Or is it a religion with a fixed, immutable form? Is it one that has remained unchanged in its tenets and celebratory form since its inception; i.e. one that has been unchanged since its inception? How many other claimed "true religions" does it contradict?

Either way, I see a problem, or rather lots of problems.

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A true religion is one that worships the (we only recognize the one) monotheistic God. But also believes in the trinity. And rejects later false prophets. And doesn't believe works are critical to salvation. And also promotes the GOP and Trump.

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My ex daughter in law is Japanese. A past acquaintance of ours accused her of having a “new age religion “. He did not take it kindly when told that both Buddhism and Shintoism are much, much older. His parting remark was that is not a “real” religion. These xtians just refuse to see any other religion as a true and real religion.

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And they behave incredibly rudely and boorishly to other people they perceive as "Not Them."

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Yes. So many brain-washed morons!

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I would love to hear about a true religion, one that had absolutely all and every things correct right from it's foundation. One that could prove everything it said or wrote was true. Or maybe not. It could be scary.

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"If anyone’s getting the wrong impression of what’s being taught based on the symbols, that’s on them."

I would rather trust an organisation that uses an animal skull inside a geometric figure, than the other one who uses a torture and execution device as its symbol

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This has been my complaint. Using a Roman Death and Torture Device as the symbol of Christ instead of the 2 fishes actually used by the Original Christians symbolizing his miraculous feeding of his followers. This is the abduction of Jesus by first Paul and then the Romans who have twisted the Religion. It's a Roman Death and Control Cult.

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If Christianity formed in this day, Christians would be wearing syringe earrings and electric chair pendants.

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So true! Nothing excites their cold, black hearts more than an execution!

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Me too.

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As an Ohioan, I was outraged to hear that this organization- Lifeways- was being allowed to offer religious instruction on public school time. It seemed completely unbelievable to me that parents weren’t given the curriculum- even if they signed their child up! Because of this, one parent became an instructor- and publicized their teachings, and is being sued by them.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/courts/2024/07/06/copyright-lawsuit-filed-by-hilliard-christian-group-against-critic/74310083007/

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Thanks for the link! Very interesting and I wish Mr. Parrish very good luck.

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They'll soon figure out a way to prevent future moles. Count on it.

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I think what bothers me the most about this whole concept of 'released time' for religious instruction is that it's essentially BS from the start. Parents who want their kids instructed in religious matters are welcome to take their kids to church whichever day their church meets; and said meetings are pretty much always during times people aren't at work/school. There is no need - or reason, truthfully - to sacrifice actual classroom learning time for any sort of outside study time. Public schools should not be meekly submitting to the loss of public welfare that results from missed class time this way.

If parents care about 'religious instruction' so d@mn much, they can very well go to church on Sunday with their kids and quit bothering public schools to correct their problems. I've seen too many school districts strapped for cash, forced to make untenable compromises, and generally pushed around by lawmakers. This whole idea should be told to shove off and not come back; but I am glad to see The Satanic Temple taking advantage of the idea while it's available. Good luck to them!

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Exactly! And if the parents want religious concepts taught along side their schooling, then religious schools are available in many denominations. Pay for it yourself.

It’s just another way for the repubelicans to undermine public education.

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It's not released time for religious instruction as it is for indoctrination. If my kid didn't have permission and came home saying he/she was "saved," I'd be suing the school district and the "ministry" for violating my parental rights. I'm sure a good lawyer could come up with more charges. I'm sure the ACLU would be interested, too.

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Even though I am fairly religious and do believe in God, and the importance of scripture, I agree with you. I think public schools are awful, and are basically teaching a religion of statism, consumerism, and wokism. I want like many people a real education for my money. Science, math, language, art, music, economics, business, critical tbinking, history, etc. Though it may be impossible not to apply a certain lens to some of those subjects that would be deemed political at this point. The left and right have always been about a certain culture and belief structure, but now they are so far from any consensus.

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To Christians...

Sooooo, would this be a "Be careful what you wish for" moment? You might want to look up "unintended consequences." They tend to happen when you try to overreach.

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𝐻𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑔𝑛𝑜𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑐𝑒 𝑖𝑠 𝑟𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔. 𝐻𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑦𝑠 𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑓𝑒𝑟 𝑡𝑜 𝑠𝑒𝑒 𝑘𝑖𝑑𝑠 “𝑑𝑜𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑔𝑜𝑜𝑑, ℎ𝑒𝑎𝑙𝑡ℎ𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠 𝑟𝑎𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑛 𝑠𝑎𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑐 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠.” 𝑇ℎ𝑒 “𝑆𝑎𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑐” 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑠 𝑖𝑛 𝑞𝑢𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛? 𝐶𝑜𝑚𝑝𝑎𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛. 𝐸𝑚𝑝𝑎𝑡ℎ𝑦. 𝑃𝑟𝑜𝑏𝑙𝑒𝑚 𝑠𝑜𝑙𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔. 𝐵𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑜𝑙𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒. 𝐴𝑟𝑡𝑠 & 𝑐𝑟𝑎𝑓𝑡𝑠. 𝐶𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑣𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑗𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑠.

𝑇ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝐺𝑎𝑟𝑦 𝐶𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑘 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑠 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑠 𝑖𝑛 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑘 𝑜𝑝𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑡𝑜 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑏𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑜𝑓 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦.

Yes indeed. Mr Click thinks compassion is bad and unhealthy, probably because it stands in the way of unquestioned obedience and punishment for noncompliance. Or maybe he is just so ignorant that he just saw the word "Satanic" and freaked out. Since he is apparently capable of at least a fifth grade reading comprehension level, I'm going with the former

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Let's not forget their opposition to 'critical thinking'. Critical thinking, or simply 'thinking' is scary for Christians because they already know people they have lost in their flock because of that evil, satanic, thinking!

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Yep. Thinking also gets in the way of unquestioned obedience. If you can't think, you can't question.

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They usually lose their smartest leaders and Ministers if they actually study the Bible, it's translations and history at a University.

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I vote for the knee-jerk reaction: "EEEEK! Satanic!!! EVIL!!!"

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Could be both.

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It could, but I'm putting my money on Troublesh00ter.

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OT

A shooting at a tiny California Christian K-8 school has left the shooter dead and two children aged 5 and 6 wounded.

God had his eye on the sparrow and let innocent healthy childrens bodies be violated by ammunition.

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From the article: “One woman was raising her hands up, praising the Lord” when she found her child.

"Thank you God for having someone else's child shot instead of mine."

🤔

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Sickening, but all too common with them.

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Why can't she praise God that it wasn't worse?

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Well, she could, but that would be as asinine as praising God that some other kids got shot. If God has the power to prevent some people from being shot then he should be able to stop everyone from being shot. If he doesn't do that, he doesn't deserve any praise or thanks.

More likely though, since random kids got shot and random kids avoided being shot, there is no God controlling the event.

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I guess I don't see why she can't praise God for the good and recognize that bad things still happen in this world. I understand your point but what makes you think its possible to have a world without pain? Even psychologically you could maybe see how your perspective could be categorized as ungrateful and assuming. You reject the idea of God and the idea of being thankful towards a creator because in your eyes its not perfect. But what if it is perfect and you don't understand why? What if there is no good without bad, even as terrible as things can get? What if you should just be grateful for the good in the world and accept that the bad may be necessary. Again even from a solely psychological perspective these choices, and they are choices, have real effects that manifest in reality.

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You are like Cane.

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Cane who? Surely you don't mean CAIN, Adam and Eve's son? Who's this CANE you're talking about??

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Amazing how Christians don't know the contents of their own bible. Even nonbelievers know it's Cain and not Cane.

Poor Bill doesn't realize that unlike Cain, I actually exist. Cain is just a fantasy. And unlike Cain, I never killed anyone. So, no. I'm not like Cain in the slightest.

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Yes Cain. The son of Adam in Genesis.

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Churches generally offer 2-5 opportunities a week to learn about the bible. Why isn't that enough? Why does god need the public schools?

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Like I said to oraxx, I'm guessing it's less about "my kid needs extra Sunday School" and more about "I don't want my kid exposed to secular ideas about..." They are avoiding the school lesson, not needing the non-school lesson.

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"What does god need with a s̸t̸a̸r̸s̸h̸i̸p 𝘧𝘪𝘦𝘭𝘥 𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘱?"

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That headline alone is enough to fiercely chap a whole bunch of christo-fascist asses.

Alas, the asses so chapped have, as usual, missed the entire point. They themselves triggered this, yet they see TST as this evil bilious enemy deliberately "targeting" them.

They are shocked, SHOCKED, to find neutrality/fair play going on in this establishment.

(They probably thought they had stamped THAT out decades ago).

I am getting royally fed up with these asswipes playing the persecution card every time a Not Them gets treated fairly. They so dearly lo-o-o-o-o-o-ve punching down on Not Thems, and everyone needs to follow THEIR example.

I wish there were some way to invalidate that damn card for good.

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This is one of the many reasons why I'm a supporter of the Satanic Temple. They get shit done.

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I have been trying to decide where to make my small charitable contribution this year. TST is it!.

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VERY far out! I am more than a little surprised to learn that TST has actually gained a foothold in an Ohio school system, though I'm not surprised that that was a reaction to a Christian organization having similar luck (being LifeWise). The REAL corker was the evenhanded reaction LifeWise offered to HAIL. One MIGHT think they had grown up a bit, though it's far more likely that they are covering their own tailbones against the possibility of LifeWise AND HAIL BOTH being chucked out of the Marysville school system.

In any case, it'll be fun to see what comes out of this.

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They have deep pockets but are too greedy to invite a losing lawsuit. Definitely ass covering and not maturity.

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Dominionism is all about chipping away at the wall of separation between Church and State until it is no more than a speed bump. I think it is amusing to see people so exercised and outraged by Satanists offering to teach good citizenship skills to children.

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Good citizenship is anathema to kkkristers. Total control over EVERYONE is what jesus demands. Screw that Constitution shit!!!

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Didn't the founders of this nation see the world through the lens of Christianity or at least deism? It means that while there is a separation of church and state, (one I think is necessary), there is still cultural expectations. I can say that satanism would in no way, and rightly so be tolerated. I don't think public schools should necessarily be teaching a certain religious belief. But how are we all united if not by culture and how is that culture in the US not majority Christian? Most people in the US for the last 250 years have been church going, Bible reading, God fearing men, women, and children. The culture has been breaking down because those values, and the lens through which we collectively view reality, shifted towards atheism, paganism, sciencism, and belief systems.

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I see things differently. I come from card- carrying Atheists on my Dad’s side and quiet Atheists/lapsed Jews on my Mom’s. If I didn’t make myself clear, I think kids belong in school not out for any religious instruction. I think the schools should be teaching those good citizenship skills without any religious coloration.

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I think the issue is that it's impossible not to teach something like history, even what is chosen to be focused on, without teaching it from some narrative. If you're an atheist and I'm a Christian we see things through a particular lens or live our lives within a narrative. You don't "not believe in God" you "believe in no God". We both chose a narrative in which to construct our life around. This is why I believe it may be difficult or impossible depending on the subject. Math is not subjective, history is for example.

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I have read the Bible. I have also read the Koran, The Book of Mormon, The Bhagavad Gita, and as much of The Vestas as I could stand. I don’t believe in any gods. My narrative is science and reason based. I understand the outsized impact religion has had on human culture but reject that narrative based on the total absence of proof that any of the gods going around ever existed.

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Its not one or the other. You can choose the narratives for their own purpose, or utility. Some things are meant to be understood at a cosmic or spiritual level. But that will not help you achieve orbit. You can layer your perceived realities on top of each other and switch between them.

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And ultimately I'm trying to make you aware that there is biased. Science is very much like religion in some ways. I'm asking you to take a step back and see that you are not just talking about a world with no God, it is anti God. Your focus on reason and science, making those the highest "law" let's say in your life. For me now I try to put God in the highest place in my life. It means holding the eternal above the mortal flesh. I use reason of course, I believe it is the language of God. Or one of them. Reasoning is a seemingly perfectible process. Its in a way like evolution. The Socratic method of problem solving and without ego is beautiful. Its a path to truth. If you really put the pursuit of Truth above everything else you truly are walking with God. Its absolutely true because God as I understand Him is the highest ideal, the highest good, pure light, pure love. All of those things do in fact exist. Does the number 7 exist? Where does it exist?

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