In the territory now covered by Texas, human sacrifice was foundational for probably a few hundred years. Then Catholicism was foundational for another couple hundred.
And indeed, slavery is very foundational to Texas. The Mexican government passing a law to outlaw slavery was what prompted the white landowners to seceed. And do you know what Santa Ana did when he won at the Alamo? Freed William Travis' slave Joe, who was a noncombatant on the Texan side.
I believe new research shows that mostly the human sacrifice thing is stories told to demonise the people living in those area. And anyway was peanuts compared to the European witch hunt. I am too tired to look for sources now. Sorry.
And people wonder why I think that reconciliation is impossible. Why I think Republicans would be quite happy to put people like me in interment camps. I live in this benighted state. I vote. And for my trouble, I get this bill. Not programs to help homeless youth, no I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Not programs to provide children with cancer free medical care, I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Support our schools, bake sales and car washes.
I would point out that for reconciliation to be possible, both sides must be willing to be flexible on the issues to some degree. Religion fanaticism makes it so that people cannot be flexible on any issue. For one side to be expected to be flexible all the time to accommodate the other is not, by any stretch, reconciliation; that's one side issuing directives for the other to obey i. e. authoritarianism.
Ms Noble is trying really hard not to just say "but Jesus, dammit!" isn't she? I can't imagine having to try to deal with people like this in a professional setting, kudos to the man for being so civil.
Sadly, it’s not actually Jesus though, is it?. He is correct in this argument, in that he is citing New Testament beliefs, and she’s stuck in Old Testament ones.
Really, Christian Nationalists seem to believe in the OT plus Revelation, and apparently skip the Gospels completely! That’s where all the kindness is. Where the change from God as ‘wrathful and jealous’ to ‘kind and loving’ comes. Only this hateful version that they follow seems to have missed all of that in their cherrypicking.
Just spitballing here, but it’s something that struck me watching the clips and reading the comments…
Christian apologists would have us believe the Ten Commandments are the bedrock of western civilization, even though all but two of them would be unconstitutional should anyone try writing them into law. Conservative Christians NEVER stop trying to mark their territory in the public schools, paid for with everyone's tax dollars. Their obsession with indoctrinating children before they've reached the age of reason speaks directly to just how weak the Christian message is. Neither this country nor the wider world faces a problem that has a religious solution.
Of course, nobody would be gay or trans if no one talked about it. If you can't say it, then they can pretend it doesn't exist without contradiction.
Their peace of mind is more important than the children who will struggle with powerful feelings they don't have the words to express or explain until it kills the children.
Talarico does very well here to point out the problems with the Ten Commandments, but he doesn't go far enough, mostly because he himself is a believer and subscribes to those commandments. The blunt fact is that the United States is a secular nation. Representative Noble is mistaken (probably purposefully so) in stating that the Ten Commandments (and by extension, the bible) is foundational to the United States. All she would have to do is look at Article VI, Paragraph 3, where it states that:
Never mind the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. She compounds her own apparent ignorance by stating, “If we don't know where we've been, how do we know where we're going?” Clearly, she DOESN'T know where we've been, because she treats the bible as foundational to the Constitution, which it is NOT. “It is my intention to keep this bill 'clean,'” she states, which basically tells me that she has no real interest in discussing the matter, and being that this is Texas, she will likely have her way.
The real shame here is that there wasn't an open debate on the issue, preferably a fact-checked debate, because the proposed bill would fall of its own weight. Then, too, I'd like to own a Porsche Cayman and have a state-of-the-art sound system to listen to, but that ain't happening any time soon, either. At least Talarico got his shots in, and maybe it registered with SOMEONE.
I wish I'd been able to buy my car in a pretty blue like the one available on that model in 2020. All they had for my model year looked more gray than blue, so I ended up with a not-ugly milk chocolate brown that they call bronze. (I ordered it, I'm picky and trade cars often enough, I don't *have* to take something off the lot. The one time I would have had to get something immediately, my mother decided to buy a Cadillac and gave me her Toyota until I could pay off my CC a few months later.)
The Treaty of Tripoli rather affirmed the notion that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Remember, it was ratified unanimously without debate, nary a one of the Founders then in the Senate had any objection.
I read many of the responses to his Tweets. It was deeply disturbing how many of the comments fully supported the ten commandments posters in the classrooms, and attacking him for his opposition to this bill. From the comments it is obvious to me that far, far too many in this country are beyond hope when it comes to true democratic ideals and Democracy itself. I comfort myself by reminding myself that these comments came from Twitter users, who apparently mostly hold right wing views, and hopefully are not the views of a majority in this country.
The sponsor of the bill said it herself, To respect authority. Nothing about authority earning that respect. Just obey without question. No one should do that. Do it because you think it is reasonable, because you trust the person asking you to do something, because you feel it's your responsibility, not because someone told you to do it with no rationale but "I said so"
As I've said this numerous times, these people really can't fathom that their religion isn't objective truth, they don't think they're forcing their religion on anyone, they'll claim they fully support freedom of religion, that what they're doing isn't about a religion, it's about the basic nature of the world. I had one particularly odious and oblivious [and hurl-inducing] fool try to tell me they weren't trying to force their religion on anyone, they were trying to save them. Such an unbelievably arrogant and ignorant thing to say but you could never make someone like that understand. It's not a majority of the country, but it's somewhere like 1/3, a very vocal, and politically active group that the MSM is WAY TOO deferential to [cuz religion] which leads to a hands-off approach, refusing to call the out as profoundly unamerican and contemptuous of the Constitution and reality.
Not the Ten Commandments. Never called the Ten Commandments. Stone tablets were smashed by the imaginary Moses and never put into use. The "real" 10C are found in Exodus 34 and called the Ten Commandments in Verse 28. They bear little resemblance to the Exodus 20 set.
Ungodly, indeed. The script for DeMille's 1923 version of The Ten Commandments was by Jeanie Macpherson--who was also his mistress. "(She wrote the scripts for most of his silents.) Cecil and his wife reportedly had an "agreement" permitting him to have as many mistresses as he liked. How voluntary that agreement was on the part of Mrs. D. is not recorded. DeMille was a prime example of the christian insistence that "biblical morality" is for other people, not themselves.
The same film has a lesbian seduction scene so graphic it leaves even modern audiences close to speechless (a vile Roman lesbian trying to seduce a nice christian lady). And as Nero (Charles Laughton) watches the fun and games in the arena, there's a naked slave boy sitting adoringly at his feet. The Sign of the Cross was so damn "holy" it led to a huge public outcry and was one of the key films leading to the creation of the production code that sanitized American films for the next thirty years.
DEMILLE (on hearing about the creation of the Hays Office): "Maybe we went a tad too far?"
Way to go, dummy. You just cut your own throat.
That taboo tester Groucho had fun with the censors in "At the Circus." A vixen played by Eve Arden hides a billfold down the front of her dress. Groucho, wanting to get that money back, turns to the audience/camera and says "There must be some way of getting that money without getting in trouble with the Hays Office." The line got the biggest laugh in the film.
Shemp Howard would do a later version of the line in a 3 Stooges short, using the word "censors" instead of the Hays Office.
I prefer the '23 version. The pseudo-historical "re-creation" only lasts a little more than a half hour in it, the film then moves on to a "modern" story. The modern part of the story is hokum, too, of course, but at least there are no silly sets or bad special effects. Also, the tubby clown who plays Moses looks like the kind of over-the-hill stunt man they hire to play the losers in pro wrestling matches.
Talarico's effort is heroic, and for the foreseeable future, it's futile. However, that's not a reason for him to give up. This is a generations-long struggle. Eee-ven-tu-alll-yyy, water wears down stone.
This is reminiscent of Galileo versus the Vatican Cardinals. He believed that reason should persuade, but they believed that authority must dominate. That's like two people speaking utterly different languages. The Cardinals didn't actually give a rat's ass about the arrangement of the Solar System, they only cared about protecting their power. Some of them already privately thought the heliocentric model made sense, BUT they also thought that their Earth-centric model helped to support their tightly centralized authority, and it was far more important that no usurper, even with empirical observations would be tolerated.
You can present the most eloquent, rational, reasonable and logical arguments to the Republican legislators, but it'll all just bounce off like bb's off a battleship. They don't really care about education, or managing kids in class, or student safety, or good citizenship, or the moral well-being of the public, or any of that bullshit. It's all about, and ONLY about making sure their authority dominates, making sure they GET THEIR WAY even if their way isn't the best way.
But take heart: Over many years, the heliocentric model was slowly, quietly accepted only as a hypothetical idea, then as a possible idea, then a plausible idea, then as the idea that made the most sense, and finally, without any fanfare or any big deal acknowledgement, it was accepted as settled truth. 350 years after Galileo died, the Pope finally got around to apologizing for their reprehensible persecution of him.
Texas probably won't take three and a half centuries to grow out of its theocratic obsession, but it won't be for the next couple of generations, and it will happen slowly, quietly, without any fanfare or big deal acknowledgement.
That’s nice, but the separation of church and state has already completed the process and been accepted for some time, upheld by precedent, these autocrats are trying to revert back to the beginning, with great fanfare. What needs to happen is Texas needs a big ole brick wall to have these numpties run smack into to have the sense knocked back into them or removed from office.
This is one small drop in the ocean of shit the GOP is dumping on the USA right now for turning back our rights and progress. They have unearned positions only through cheating and working the system, not for the quality of their work or popularity of their platforms.
If we had been working in the fantasy Noble was pretending was reality and Talarico was trying to move from ignorance to knowledge, your suggestion would be appropriate. What is happening now is not a situation where it will work, not that I am saying don’t try it. Talarico did the right thing, but we can’t rest on his laurels.
I think maybe you have misunderstood me. I'm not saying rest on Talarico's laurels, I'm saying persevere. That's not the same as passive patience. We must all become like him, persistent, tenacious, and unrelenting. I don't know what the brick wall you mention would actually be. Yes, we should vote the theocrats out of office. That will take several elections, not just one. Yes, argue for reason with reason, speak up for rationalism with rational speech. Yes, we must keep challenging their anti-Constitutional efforts in court again and again. That will take many cases, not just one. Gird yourself for the long fight, one that you know won't be over in your lifetime, but will be closer to victory because of your efforts.
In a long struggle it's important to guard against taking on the very same tactics that make your opponents so repugnant. If in the end we have inadvertently adopted their methods and traits, then even if we prevail, we have become indistinguishable from them. Their "isms" have won, even if their name tag isn't on the trophy.
I read the exchange. I'll only say this: A troll is not someone with a sincere differing opinion who is genuinely interested in understanding you and being understood by you. I have learned important things from discussions with earnest people who have very different viewpoints.
BUT a troll only wants to distract the overall conversation and to focus attention on themselves. Positive or negative attention makes no difference; it's about the narcissistic desire for attention and often also about sadistic pleasure from frustrating others. Your most clever and crushing insults are just food for the troll.
The problem is that it often takes several back-and-forths to realize what you're dealing with. At that point, the best thing to do is to stop being suckered, simply cut your losses and disengage. It's hard, because after all that investment your own pride is involved. But the troll will keep "winning" by stealing your time as long as you keep futilely giving your time away.
Starve trolls to death by ignoring them. Narcissism desperately needs attention. Parasites and vermin don't come back if there's no food.
I tried to cut off. Didn't work. If I hadn't had to read all her posts it would have been really good. But no matter who replied to her or what she just kept going so I don't think starving would have worked in this particular case. It's not as if she was spreading herself thin. 😁
She kept stating the obvious by telling us over and over that this was Hemant's site, not ours. Wonder how she feels now that Hemant's exercised his prerogative and banned her?
I told her that trolls never last here, that they vanish and we go on. Wonder if that finally sank in?
I also told her that Hemant had a short fuse when it came to trolls. But she seems to me as if she needs treatment. It wasn't what she said quite so much for me as the way she said it – the vehemence and vitriol aimed against people who would have agreed with some of what she said if she wasn't so busy railing against them.
The gal from misery got banned, awesome. I've never heard such misandry as blatant as that... Some serious hatred towards white men. I just ignored her, she wasn't worth wasting a moment on after she played her cards.
I quit reading her stuff and people have finished upvoting my responses (plus it's been a busy, frustrating morning at work) so I haven't thought much about her this morning. Moved on to other things. But I do miss the 2.5 hours of sleep.
I was tempted to respond to her myself, but I'm traveling, and really just haven't had the time. From what I could tell of what I did read, they were part of what she said that were right, but parts that were dead wrong. And the bigger problem, the troll problem, what is that when someone pointed out the part where she was dead wrong, she just took it that they were saying that everything she said was dead wrong. No, it was just the dead wrong parts.
“TALARICO: And tell me about—because every time on this committee that we try to teach students values like empathy or kindness, we're told we can't because that's the parents role. Every time on this committee that we try to teach basic sex education to keep our kids safe, we're told that's the parents role.
But now you're putting religious commandments—literal Commandments—in our classrooms, and you're saying that's the state's role. Why is that not the parents role?
NOBLE: [Long pause] That's really an interesting rabbit trail that you've gone on with that. Because, really, what we're talking about here is a historical, foundational document to our nation's education history and our judicial history. Those other things are great and interesting, but they're not foundational to us, educationally and judicially.”
Empathy and kindness are not foundational or historical the the United States? That’s fucked up. But somehow I feel like it’s true. Maybe we can move past the past and make things better by dropping the shit that keeps us from being empathetic and kind and just go with those values instead.
“TALARICO: Would you be comfortable with adding language to receive parental consent from all the parents of students in the classroom before putting it up?
NOBLE: I would not. I am, again, gonna keep it clean as it came over.
TALARICO: So you don't want parental consent when it comes to students receiving religious commandments?
NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom. I know that our teachers are more and more and more having to fight for classroom management over the behavior of students. And I don't think that these Commandments would, in any way… I think these Commandments would help with that classroom management need.“
Tell me specifically how these posters will affect classroom management. What will plastering every wall with banal “thou shall nots” that don’t even really apply to children of any age, or that children even understand, do to make them good citizens or students? How does keeping the sabbath holy teach decent study habits? How does do not commit adultery keep kids from getting antzy from sitting so long? Maybe respect your mother and father keeps the kids from acting out, but there are better and more effective ways to express “respect your elders” than including the whole Ten Commandments.
Honestly, if as a teacher, you are having this much trouble with classroom management, it’s a problem with your incompetence not the students ignorance of ancient sheepherders attempt at morality.
If Noble were genuinely interested in hearing an oppositional point of view, it would be one thing. She clearly is NOT. She just wants to ram that bill through into law and the less argument the better. Even toward the end, her point of view that it was a mistake to remove the 10 Commandments from schoolrooms was a mistake is misinformed and ignorant of the secular nature of our government and any element which derives its functionality from said government, INCLUDING SCHOOLS.
Cite the historical foundations of the Ten Commandments. Tell me where they n the constitution they are written. Where were the Ten Commandments placed before the Hollywood marketing campaign? Where in the other foundation documents did the Ten Commandments get mentioned as part of our justice system or any branch of our government?
They were not there. Full stop.
The education system, well the education system that the masses were given, the wealthy had a different program altogether, only used the Bible as textbooks because it was readily available during the early part of US history. Books were a luxury that not many could access, not even for a classroom. But pretty much every family had a Bible, and the churches that housed the school during the week had many. Do not pretend that the limited access to reading material was by any means an approval of the content. Especially by the deist founding fathers.
They long for a world that was simpler than today's complex world. They think if they can get everyone to Jesus more, everyone will be the same and they won't have to deal with complexity.
I subscribe to a channel on YouTube that has very ancient video... It's crazy looking at people walking around like in the 1930's.. like watching ghosts because you know everyone is dead by now.
They sometimes note that Moses holding tablets is carved into the SCOTUS building as one of the (I think ten?) lawgivers represented there.
Leaving aside that artistic freedom on a comission means that what the artist did does not necessarily reflect what the US government officially thinks, there are the major problems of (a) giving obvious special treatment for one of them, and (b) treating that one's contributions as 'active' rather than 'background.'
"NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom."
Oh really? Sir, do we have a problem with kids committing adultery in our classrooms? Are they spending their time making graven images instead of doing assignments? Are they stealing in class? Murdering? Are they coveting their neighbor's ox instead of doing the assigned reading? Is it the school board's contention that students must be prevented from doing homework on Sundays?
I expect some kids swear. But other than that, the 10C's are at best irrelevant to classroom behavior.
When I was working at the hospital with the doctors, they still used beepers. Some were moving away from them but the hospital required one for the birthing unit and other doctors were happy using their individual beepers. I’m pretty sure they are still using them. I only left three years ago.
I suppose in an age of barbarism, a few of the commandments may have shone a very limited light in a very dark time such as not killing or honoring your folks, but yea, I don't think we needed that to be written to innately know that. So yea, it's pretty useless.
In addition to everything else, it's now also come out that Nazi fanboy billionaire Harlan Crow 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 paid for his grandnephew's private school tuition. Is there anything in Clarence's life at this point that Crow 𝘩𝘢𝘴𝘯'𝘵 paid for?
I can't for the life of me understand why, with this level of such obvious corruption, that he hasn't been suspended or something. But then we appoint judges in a completely different way so who knows.
The set that was on the stone tablets that Moses destroyed or the set that actually (supposedly) made it into the Ark of the Covenant and is therefore the “real” set?
The King James 10, of course. Exactly as God handed them to the good king.
Isn't it interesting how suddenly Judaism appears when the Christian dominionists don't want to advertise their Christianity? Just recently, I watched some interesting videos on the jewish position on the "Ten Commandments"... which is quite different from the Christian.
But here... defending a King James Only policy, this representative cites "Judaism" as the source.
How long before the government issues travel advisories for Texas since it's being run by religious nuts who want to kill children with guns, worship unborn fetuses, and turn schools into Christian indoctrination camps?
As a Texan, at least one thing I could see as a positive was that Florida was worse, but it sure seems like we're working really hard to top their lunacy. Serge Storms may need to relocate [for Tim Dorsey fans].
The two words above come from a favorite book series of mine, Tim Dorsey's Serge Storms series. The words themselves come from the title Torpedo Juice. And in this book the character, Serge (a Florida history buff and serial killer with a penchant for offing the jerks, tools, and assholes of our planet) is confronted by a support group of people susceptible to joining cults.
For some reason said support group views him as their Messiah and constantly following him about. Serge, exasperated, tells them this:
"You want to follow me? Then do what I do. I follow nobody."
A while back, maybe 15 yeas, I went to a bookstore thing with Dorsey and got to ask him a question. I asked if any of that weird shit about Florida he writes into the novels was true and he confirmed it was all real. Leave it to Serge to give everyone advice that's a alternative form of a classic paradox.
Yes. I know. And I'm leaving on a two week vacation and won't have a chance to watch it until the following weekend, maybe. (several family members are visiting and I know at least two have no interest in this movie)
Slavery was foundational.
Women not being allowed to vote was foundational.
In the territory now covered by Texas, human sacrifice was foundational for probably a few hundred years. Then Catholicism was foundational for another couple hundred.
And indeed, slavery is very foundational to Texas. The Mexican government passing a law to outlaw slavery was what prompted the white landowners to seceed. And do you know what Santa Ana did when he won at the Alamo? Freed William Travis' slave Joe, who was a noncombatant on the Texan side.
I believe new research shows that mostly the human sacrifice thing is stories told to demonise the people living in those area. And anyway was peanuts compared to the European witch hunt. I am too tired to look for sources now. Sorry.
Please, please, please don’t give them ideas.
And people wonder why I think that reconciliation is impossible. Why I think Republicans would be quite happy to put people like me in interment camps. I live in this benighted state. I vote. And for my trouble, I get this bill. Not programs to help homeless youth, no I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Not programs to provide children with cancer free medical care, I have to donate to a private organization to do that. Support our schools, bake sales and car washes.
I would point out that for reconciliation to be possible, both sides must be willing to be flexible on the issues to some degree. Religion fanaticism makes it so that people cannot be flexible on any issue. For one side to be expected to be flexible all the time to accommodate the other is not, by any stretch, reconciliation; that's one side issuing directives for the other to obey i. e. authoritarianism.
The Republican definition of "compromise" is that we do everything they want and they do nothing.
Ms Noble is trying really hard not to just say "but Jesus, dammit!" isn't she? I can't imagine having to try to deal with people like this in a professional setting, kudos to the man for being so civil.
I find him rather naive to think he's going to able to work with her in the future. At least if he's going to serve his constituents.
Sadly, it’s not actually Jesus though, is it?. He is correct in this argument, in that he is citing New Testament beliefs, and she’s stuck in Old Testament ones.
Really, Christian Nationalists seem to believe in the OT plus Revelation, and apparently skip the Gospels completely! That’s where all the kindness is. Where the change from God as ‘wrathful and jealous’ to ‘kind and loving’ comes. Only this hateful version that they follow seems to have missed all of that in their cherrypicking.
Just spitballing here, but it’s something that struck me watching the clips and reading the comments…
Christian apologists would have us believe the Ten Commandments are the bedrock of western civilization, even though all but two of them would be unconstitutional should anyone try writing them into law. Conservative Christians NEVER stop trying to mark their territory in the public schools, paid for with everyone's tax dollars. Their obsession with indoctrinating children before they've reached the age of reason speaks directly to just how weak the Christian message is. Neither this country nor the wider world faces a problem that has a religious solution.
They're the ones trying to codify "hook 'em while they're young" into law to prop up their failing superstitions, and yet 𝘸𝘦'𝘳𝘦 the groomers.
Of course, nobody would be gay or trans if no one talked about it. If you can't say it, then they can pretend it doesn't exist without contradiction.
Their peace of mind is more important than the children who will struggle with powerful feelings they don't have the words to express or explain until it kills the children.
Feature, not bug. Every dead queer kid is one less dollar the death squads will have to spend on ammo.
Talarico does very well here to point out the problems with the Ten Commandments, but he doesn't go far enough, mostly because he himself is a believer and subscribes to those commandments. The blunt fact is that the United States is a secular nation. Representative Noble is mistaken (probably purposefully so) in stating that the Ten Commandments (and by extension, the bible) is foundational to the United States. All she would have to do is look at Article VI, Paragraph 3, where it states that:
... 𝑛𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑡𝑒𝑠𝑡 𝑠ℎ𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑏𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑞𝑢𝑖𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑜𝑓𝑓𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑜𝑟 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝑡𝑟𝑢𝑠𝑡 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑈𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑆𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑠.
Never mind the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. She compounds her own apparent ignorance by stating, “If we don't know where we've been, how do we know where we're going?” Clearly, she DOESN'T know where we've been, because she treats the bible as foundational to the Constitution, which it is NOT. “It is my intention to keep this bill 'clean,'” she states, which basically tells me that she has no real interest in discussing the matter, and being that this is Texas, she will likely have her way.
The real shame here is that there wasn't an open debate on the issue, preferably a fact-checked debate, because the proposed bill would fall of its own weight. Then, too, I'd like to own a Porsche Cayman and have a state-of-the-art sound system to listen to, but that ain't happening any time soon, either. At least Talarico got his shots in, and maybe it registered with SOMEONE.
Sadly, no one in that audience.
Porsche? Small Potatoes. I want my own Bombardier Global 8000.
To each their own. I SHOULD mention that I want the GTS, the flat-six, preferably in Sapphire Blue!
I wish I'd been able to buy my car in a pretty blue like the one available on that model in 2020. All they had for my model year looked more gray than blue, so I ended up with a not-ugly milk chocolate brown that they call bronze. (I ordered it, I'm picky and trade cars often enough, I don't *have* to take something off the lot. The one time I would have had to get something immediately, my mother decided to buy a Cadillac and gave me her Toyota until I could pay off my CC a few months later.)
My truck is blue, slowly turning red, starting at the rear fender wells.
The Treaty of Tripoli rather affirmed the notion that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Remember, it was ratified unanimously without debate, nary a one of the Founders then in the Senate had any objection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
I read many of the responses to his Tweets. It was deeply disturbing how many of the comments fully supported the ten commandments posters in the classrooms, and attacking him for his opposition to this bill. From the comments it is obvious to me that far, far too many in this country are beyond hope when it comes to true democratic ideals and Democracy itself. I comfort myself by reminding myself that these comments came from Twitter users, who apparently mostly hold right wing views, and hopefully are not the views of a majority in this country.
The sponsor of the bill said it herself, To respect authority. Nothing about authority earning that respect. Just obey without question. No one should do that. Do it because you think it is reasonable, because you trust the person asking you to do something, because you feel it's your responsibility, not because someone told you to do it with no rationale but "I said so"
" far too many in this country are beyond hope"
As I've said this numerous times, these people really can't fathom that their religion isn't objective truth, they don't think they're forcing their religion on anyone, they'll claim they fully support freedom of religion, that what they're doing isn't about a religion, it's about the basic nature of the world. I had one particularly odious and oblivious [and hurl-inducing] fool try to tell me they weren't trying to force their religion on anyone, they were trying to save them. Such an unbelievably arrogant and ignorant thing to say but you could never make someone like that understand. It's not a majority of the country, but it's somewhere like 1/3, a very vocal, and politically active group that the MSM is WAY TOO deferential to [cuz religion] which leads to a hands-off approach, refusing to call the out as profoundly unamerican and contemptuous of the Constitution and reality.
Not the Ten Commandments. Never called the Ten Commandments. Stone tablets were smashed by the imaginary Moses and never put into use. The "real" 10C are found in Exodus 34 and called the Ten Commandments in Verse 28. They bear little resemblance to the Exodus 20 set.
Xtians don't know the contents of their own book.
If it's good enough for Cecil B. DeMille, it's good enough for me.
People forgot that all those 10 Commandments monuments being put up at the time was to promote a movie from "ungodly" Hollywood.
Ungodly, indeed. The script for DeMille's 1923 version of The Ten Commandments was by Jeanie Macpherson--who was also his mistress. "(She wrote the scripts for most of his silents.) Cecil and his wife reportedly had an "agreement" permitting him to have as many mistresses as he liked. How voluntary that agreement was on the part of Mrs. D. is not recorded. DeMille was a prime example of the christian insistence that "biblical morality" is for other people, not themselves.
His film "The Sign of the Cross" had a graphic depiction of bestiality (gorilla on woman).
My my, makes one really wonder about his private life and "likes."
The same film has a lesbian seduction scene so graphic it leaves even modern audiences close to speechless (a vile Roman lesbian trying to seduce a nice christian lady). And as Nero (Charles Laughton) watches the fun and games in the arena, there's a naked slave boy sitting adoringly at his feet. The Sign of the Cross was so damn "holy" it led to a huge public outcry and was one of the key films leading to the creation of the production code that sanitized American films for the next thirty years.
DEMILLE (on hearing about the creation of the Hays Office): "Maybe we went a tad too far?"
Way to go, dummy. You just cut your own throat.
That taboo tester Groucho had fun with the censors in "At the Circus." A vixen played by Eve Arden hides a billfold down the front of her dress. Groucho, wanting to get that money back, turns to the audience/camera and says "There must be some way of getting that money without getting in trouble with the Hays Office." The line got the biggest laugh in the film.
Shemp Howard would do a later version of the line in a 3 Stooges short, using the word "censors" instead of the Hays Office.
Lesbian scene that was graphic, ok now I'm interested.
Got one still up in the city park on May's Island in Cedar Rapids, IA.
I live in a neighboring municipality, so I'd rather a citizen of CR deal with it.
1923 or 1956 ?
"Cecil B. DeMille promoted the film by placing Ten Commandment monuments as a publicity stunt for the film in cities across the United States."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_Commandments_(1956_film)
I prefer the '23 version. The pseudo-historical "re-creation" only lasts a little more than a half hour in it, the film then moves on to a "modern" story. The modern part of the story is hokum, too, of course, but at least there are no silly sets or bad special effects. Also, the tubby clown who plays Moses looks like the kind of over-the-hill stunt man they hire to play the losers in pro wrestling matches.
Talarico's effort is heroic, and for the foreseeable future, it's futile. However, that's not a reason for him to give up. This is a generations-long struggle. Eee-ven-tu-alll-yyy, water wears down stone.
This is reminiscent of Galileo versus the Vatican Cardinals. He believed that reason should persuade, but they believed that authority must dominate. That's like two people speaking utterly different languages. The Cardinals didn't actually give a rat's ass about the arrangement of the Solar System, they only cared about protecting their power. Some of them already privately thought the heliocentric model made sense, BUT they also thought that their Earth-centric model helped to support their tightly centralized authority, and it was far more important that no usurper, even with empirical observations would be tolerated.
You can present the most eloquent, rational, reasonable and logical arguments to the Republican legislators, but it'll all just bounce off like bb's off a battleship. They don't really care about education, or managing kids in class, or student safety, or good citizenship, or the moral well-being of the public, or any of that bullshit. It's all about, and ONLY about making sure their authority dominates, making sure they GET THEIR WAY even if their way isn't the best way.
But take heart: Over many years, the heliocentric model was slowly, quietly accepted only as a hypothetical idea, then as a possible idea, then a plausible idea, then as the idea that made the most sense, and finally, without any fanfare or any big deal acknowledgement, it was accepted as settled truth. 350 years after Galileo died, the Pope finally got around to apologizing for their reprehensible persecution of him.
Texas probably won't take three and a half centuries to grow out of its theocratic obsession, but it won't be for the next couple of generations, and it will happen slowly, quietly, without any fanfare or big deal acknowledgement.
PERSEVERE.
That’s nice, but the separation of church and state has already completed the process and been accepted for some time, upheld by precedent, these autocrats are trying to revert back to the beginning, with great fanfare. What needs to happen is Texas needs a big ole brick wall to have these numpties run smack into to have the sense knocked back into them or removed from office.
This is one small drop in the ocean of shit the GOP is dumping on the USA right now for turning back our rights and progress. They have unearned positions only through cheating and working the system, not for the quality of their work or popularity of their platforms.
If we had been working in the fantasy Noble was pretending was reality and Talarico was trying to move from ignorance to knowledge, your suggestion would be appropriate. What is happening now is not a situation where it will work, not that I am saying don’t try it. Talarico did the right thing, but we can’t rest on his laurels.
I think maybe you have misunderstood me. I'm not saying rest on Talarico's laurels, I'm saying persevere. That's not the same as passive patience. We must all become like him, persistent, tenacious, and unrelenting. I don't know what the brick wall you mention would actually be. Yes, we should vote the theocrats out of office. That will take several elections, not just one. Yes, argue for reason with reason, speak up for rationalism with rational speech. Yes, we must keep challenging their anti-Constitutional efforts in court again and again. That will take many cases, not just one. Gird yourself for the long fight, one that you know won't be over in your lifetime, but will be closer to victory because of your efforts.
In a long struggle it's important to guard against taking on the very same tactics that make your opponents so repugnant. If in the end we have inadvertently adopted their methods and traits, then even if we prevail, we have become indistinguishable from them. Their "isms" have won, even if their name tag isn't on the trophy.
Did you read the comments from yesterday? If you did, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on the uber troll.
I read the exchange. I'll only say this: A troll is not someone with a sincere differing opinion who is genuinely interested in understanding you and being understood by you. I have learned important things from discussions with earnest people who have very different viewpoints.
BUT a troll only wants to distract the overall conversation and to focus attention on themselves. Positive or negative attention makes no difference; it's about the narcissistic desire for attention and often also about sadistic pleasure from frustrating others. Your most clever and crushing insults are just food for the troll.
The problem is that it often takes several back-and-forths to realize what you're dealing with. At that point, the best thing to do is to stop being suckered, simply cut your losses and disengage. It's hard, because after all that investment your own pride is involved. But the troll will keep "winning" by stealing your time as long as you keep futilely giving your time away.
Starve trolls to death by ignoring them. Narcissism desperately needs attention. Parasites and vermin don't come back if there's no food.
Spot on, Richard. I gave her a single response and cut her off. She'll get no further nourishment from me.
I tried to cut off. Didn't work. If I hadn't had to read all her posts it would have been really good. But no matter who replied to her or what she just kept going so I don't think starving would have worked in this particular case. It's not as if she was spreading herself thin. 😁
She kept stating the obvious by telling us over and over that this was Hemant's site, not ours. Wonder how she feels now that Hemant's exercised his prerogative and banned her?
I told her that trolls never last here, that they vanish and we go on. Wonder if that finally sank in?
I also told her that Hemant had a short fuse when it came to trolls. But she seems to me as if she needs treatment. It wasn't what she said quite so much for me as the way she said it – the vehemence and vitriol aimed against people who would have agreed with some of what she said if she wasn't so busy railing against them.
The gal from misery got banned, awesome. I've never heard such misandry as blatant as that... Some serious hatred towards white men. I just ignored her, she wasn't worth wasting a moment on after she played her cards.
She got in my head, I couldn't stop thinking of arguments for 2.5 hours after I went to bed.
Cdbunch, don't let people like that affect you. She just wasn't worth it. You're too good a person for her... Forget her
Are you better now ?
I quit reading her stuff and people have finished upvoting my responses (plus it's been a busy, frustrating morning at work) so I haven't thought much about her this morning. Moved on to other things. But I do miss the 2.5 hours of sleep.
I was tempted to respond to her myself, but I'm traveling, and really just haven't had the time. From what I could tell of what I did read, they were part of what she said that were right, but parts that were dead wrong. And the bigger problem, the troll problem, what is that when someone pointed out the part where she was dead wrong, she just took it that they were saying that everything she said was dead wrong. No, it was just the dead wrong parts.
You didn't ask me, so I'll keep my response minimal:
Cuckoo! Cuckoo!
https://youtu.be/g3YD5v9w_3M
Me too. She's an idiot of the purest ray serene.
I am sure I met idiots with more sense.
Catching up on what she posted after I logged off. She's still at it. If anything she got even worse after I left.
Just went and looked. The report function seems to have the same effect as the mute and block functions.
I think Substack expects us to police ourselves, rather than employing a banhammer on the offender.
Oh, yeah! She is now claiming Regular Joe issued a death threat against her. 🙄
Regular Joe is mean, he wants me to move in England the country with boiled meat and bad mint sauce* 🤮
* Unlike the Indian one.
Just saw it a few minutes ago (still catching up). To quote Ron Weasley: "She's mental, that one."
No one issued a death threat. Not that many of us wouldn't relish reading her obit.
That literally made me LOL. Regular joe seems like such a sweet person.
She went bananas... Literally just friggin bananas.. I've seen better behavior from lions.
Apparently, she's fuming over having been banned from FA.
I picture her having a tantrum.
https://media.tenor.com/pz1PVrsMcQgAAAAM/cocoa-puffs-coo-coo-for-cocoa-puffs.gif
I'm looking over my poor dog Rover,
Laying on the kitchen floor.
One leg is broken, the other is sprained.
I ran him over with my Cocoa Puffs train.
Dr, Demento (along with Hank, Stu, Dave and Hank) gave us the following...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg0Vcff0UKQ
I stopped paying attention to her after she told me I'm an anti-gay white supremacist, and so is black hole mourner.
She's lost all contact with reality and doesn't care. Her "mind" is made up and there's no shifting it.
Well... now she's lost all contact with her posting privileges.
Wiped away over a hundred of her comments as though they'd never existed.
In the words of Elmer Fudd: "Good widdance to bad wubbish."
Jomicur anti gay? She really is in some parallel universe .
Sorry I missed it. I needed the laughs. My back is in another long term spasm.
Ouch...
“TALARICO: And tell me about—because every time on this committee that we try to teach students values like empathy or kindness, we're told we can't because that's the parents role. Every time on this committee that we try to teach basic sex education to keep our kids safe, we're told that's the parents role.
But now you're putting religious commandments—literal Commandments—in our classrooms, and you're saying that's the state's role. Why is that not the parents role?
NOBLE: [Long pause] That's really an interesting rabbit trail that you've gone on with that. Because, really, what we're talking about here is a historical, foundational document to our nation's education history and our judicial history. Those other things are great and interesting, but they're not foundational to us, educationally and judicially.”
Empathy and kindness are not foundational or historical the the United States? That’s fucked up. But somehow I feel like it’s true. Maybe we can move past the past and make things better by dropping the shit that keeps us from being empathetic and kind and just go with those values instead.
“TALARICO: Would you be comfortable with adding language to receive parental consent from all the parents of students in the classroom before putting it up?
NOBLE: I would not. I am, again, gonna keep it clean as it came over.
TALARICO: So you don't want parental consent when it comes to students receiving religious commandments?
NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom. I know that our teachers are more and more and more having to fight for classroom management over the behavior of students. And I don't think that these Commandments would, in any way… I think these Commandments would help with that classroom management need.“
Tell me specifically how these posters will affect classroom management. What will plastering every wall with banal “thou shall nots” that don’t even really apply to children of any age, or that children even understand, do to make them good citizens or students? How does keeping the sabbath holy teach decent study habits? How does do not commit adultery keep kids from getting antzy from sitting so long? Maybe respect your mother and father keeps the kids from acting out, but there are better and more effective ways to express “respect your elders” than including the whole Ten Commandments.
Honestly, if as a teacher, you are having this much trouble with classroom management, it’s a problem with your incompetence not the students ignorance of ancient sheepherders attempt at morality.
"Respect your father and mother"...
... "Teacher, my father and mother are not happy that I am subjected to this Christian indoctrination!"
"Shut up, you filthy heathen, and curses to the tenth generation on your heathen parents!"
(Note: "parental consent" only is important for the things the authorities want to get rid of.)
I can't help but notice that there is no reflexive commandment for parents to respect and/or honor their kids. It SHOWS, too.
As a Texan I love to see it, but I hate that he’s basically talking at an immovable object.
If Noble were genuinely interested in hearing an oppositional point of view, it would be one thing. She clearly is NOT. She just wants to ram that bill through into law and the less argument the better. Even toward the end, her point of view that it was a mistake to remove the 10 Commandments from schoolrooms was a mistake is misinformed and ignorant of the secular nature of our government and any element which derives its functionality from said government, INCLUDING SCHOOLS.
Cite the historical foundations of the Ten Commandments. Tell me where they n the constitution they are written. Where were the Ten Commandments placed before the Hollywood marketing campaign? Where in the other foundation documents did the Ten Commandments get mentioned as part of our justice system or any branch of our government?
They were not there. Full stop.
The education system, well the education system that the masses were given, the wealthy had a different program altogether, only used the Bible as textbooks because it was readily available during the early part of US history. Books were a luxury that not many could access, not even for a classroom. But pretty much every family had a Bible, and the churches that housed the school during the week had many. Do not pretend that the limited access to reading material was by any means an approval of the content. Especially by the deist founding fathers.
They long for a world that was simpler than today's complex world. They think if they can get everyone to Jesus more, everyone will be the same and they won't have to deal with complexity.
They want to return the US to a golden age that never existed.
I subscribe to a channel on YouTube that has very ancient video... It's crazy looking at people walking around like in the 1930's.. like watching ghosts because you know everyone is dead by now.
https://youtu.be/A-jb8ydfsqw
https://youtu.be/hZ1OgQL9_Cw
They sometimes note that Moses holding tablets is carved into the SCOTUS building as one of the (I think ten?) lawgivers represented there.
Leaving aside that artistic freedom on a comission means that what the artist did does not necessarily reflect what the US government officially thinks, there are the major problems of (a) giving obvious special treatment for one of them, and (b) treating that one's contributions as 'active' rather than 'background.'
"NOBLE: I don’t believe that… Again, I think that these are foundational to being a good citizen and being a good member of a classroom."
Oh really? Sir, do we have a problem with kids committing adultery in our classrooms? Are they spending their time making graven images instead of doing assignments? Are they stealing in class? Murdering? Are they coveting their neighbor's ox instead of doing the assigned reading? Is it the school board's contention that students must be prevented from doing homework on Sundays?
I expect some kids swear. But other than that, the 10C's are at best irrelevant to classroom behavior.
The ten commandments are as irrelevant as beepers.
Sorry, no. Beepers may be outdated, but they were useful. (I actually wouldn't be surprised if a few were still in use) The 10C not so much.
When I was working at the hospital with the doctors, they still used beepers. Some were moving away from them but the hospital required one for the birthing unit and other doctors were happy using their individual beepers. I’m pretty sure they are still using them. I only left three years ago.
Well, for one thing, they don't have to be recharged every day and a half.
I suppose in an age of barbarism, a few of the commandments may have shone a very limited light in a very dark time such as not killing or honoring your folks, but yea, I don't think we needed that to be written to innately know that. So yea, it's pretty useless.
OT- Is there any limit to Uncle Thomas' corruption? Signs point to 𝘯𝘰: https://www.propublica.org/article/clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-private-school-tuition-scotus
In addition to everything else, it's now also come out that Nazi fanboy billionaire Harlan Crow 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 paid for his grandnephew's private school tuition. Is there anything in Clarence's life at this point that Crow 𝘩𝘢𝘴𝘯'𝘵 paid for?
I've asked if there was any limit to Thomas' corruption. Have yet to see the bottom.
When it comes to the Right, there is no bottom. They can be infinitely worse.
They hit bottom, they simply break out the pneumatic drills.
"Have yet to see the bottom."
Crow paid for a pool boy?
That poor pool boy is never going to live down his association with Jerry and Becky.
A dead pool boy in his bed might be just a tad under that.
He would
I can't for the life of me understand why, with this level of such obvious corruption, that he hasn't been suspended or something. But then we appoint judges in a completely different way so who knows.
Did they know each others in 1987 ?
As usual, the question is: which ten?
The set that was on the stone tablets that Moses destroyed or the set that actually (supposedly) made it into the Ark of the Covenant and is therefore the “real” set?
The King James 10, of course. Exactly as God handed them to the good king.
Isn't it interesting how suddenly Judaism appears when the Christian dominionists don't want to advertise their Christianity? Just recently, I watched some interesting videos on the jewish position on the "Ten Commandments"... which is quite different from the Christian.
But here... defending a King James Only policy, this representative cites "Judaism" as the source.
You mean the king that was known to be gay and rewarded his lovers?
Ooh, if only xtians knew about James I
I think i saw King James on Grindr
That was Kink James. :)
Yes I noted that too. The text specified by law is KJV.
Which completely undermines the claim that this represents Judaism.
Well, both sets of 10 are in the KJV. It’s just not the set that they want displayed which made it into the Ark.
The 10 Commandments were on Noah's Ark? I thought they hadn't been written yet. ;)
It was in the same compartment as the Constitution.
I thought Judaism had 600+ (613?) commandments, why just these 10?
I can distill it down to one word --> "Don't"
Made me think of "Midnight Rambler" by the Rolling Stones. I don't know at what point someone slapped Mick upside the head and said "enough!"
Don't you do that
Don't do that
Don't you do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't you do that
Don't you, don't you do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
Don't do that
I was actually quoting from the film "Man from Earth"
He said I can narrow down the ten commandments to one word, "Don't"
I think you need a few more (supposedly)s in that sentence. : )
You beat me to this thought,
How long before the government issues travel advisories for Texas since it's being run by religious nuts who want to kill children with guns, worship unborn fetuses, and turn schools into Christian indoctrination camps?
As a Texan, at least one thing I could see as a positive was that Florida was worse, but it sure seems like we're working really hard to top their lunacy. Serge Storms may need to relocate [for Tim Dorsey fans].
"Visit Texas! At least we're not Florida!"
Not exactly a tagline to be proud of...
I follow nobody.
That’s what incels say while looking for a virgin.
Unless it's the next person in line at the supermarket or the movies.
(Speaking of which, the 3rd Guardians of the Galaxy movie comes out this week)
We have tickets for Saturday night.
Gonna see it Saturday morning around Noon.
I prefer the middle of the week in the afternoon, when the kiddies are still in school. Fewer people.
Follow Nobody
The two words above come from a favorite book series of mine, Tim Dorsey's Serge Storms series. The words themselves come from the title Torpedo Juice. And in this book the character, Serge (a Florida history buff and serial killer with a penchant for offing the jerks, tools, and assholes of our planet) is confronted by a support group of people susceptible to joining cults.
For some reason said support group views him as their Messiah and constantly following him about. Serge, exasperated, tells them this:
"You want to follow me? Then do what I do. I follow nobody."
https://www.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/htd2cn/follow_nobody/
A while back, maybe 15 yeas, I went to a bookstore thing with Dorsey and got to ask him a question. I asked if any of that weird shit about Florida he writes into the novels was true and he confirmed it was all real. Leave it to Serge to give everyone advice that's a alternative form of a classic paradox.
"Don't follow leaders."
-- Bob Dylan
Yes. I know. And I'm leaving on a two week vacation and won't have a chance to watch it until the following weekend, maybe. (several family members are visiting and I know at least two have no interest in this movie)
Don't worry, I won't provide any spoilers while you're gone. :)
No advisory needed. Texas does a lot of advertising.
They'd have to issue a blanket warning for the country, I expect.
Wait, why are they focusing on the Ten Commandments when they should be focusing on telling everyone that all white males are violent rapists?
ISWYDT. :)