Thank you for taking this topic on. I got about 5 minutes into Dawkins’ podcast and noped out to spare my sanity. It hurts too much to write about it much myself, since my loved ones and I are among the targets of his anti-scientific bigotry.
It was writers like Dawkins who helped me to finally embrace atheism after years of post-Christianity wandering. I've shared his books and other media content with many people over the years, including my own father who also came to identify as an atheist after reading The God Delusion. (We even went on a road trip together to see Dawkins speak and meet him in person.)
But now Dawkins is doing so much harm, not just to the atheist movement, but to science itself. And it hurts me personally to see him advance these ideas that have completely destabilized my loved ones and me.
I am agender and my fiancée is trans. My son and his partner are trans. My oldest kid is gender non-conforming and their partner is intersex and nonbinary. Because of anti-trans rhetoric and laws being passed, we were no longer safe in the U.S., the country we were all born in. My fiancée even fought for her country as an Army Ranger and is permanently disabled as a result, but was unsafe in that same country she nearly gave her life itself for.
We fled to Portugal, leaving behind everything we owned that couldn’t be fit into our suitcases because of this bigotry. We lost everything, including our primary source of income, because of America's descent into fascism and scapegoating of people like us.
Not only is he just flat out factually wrong, he is toxic. He is a traitor to his profession and to humanity.
Yeah, similar feelings here. I'm trans, and it just pushes too many of my buttons to engage closely with much of this stuff. I'm glad Hemant has been a vocal ally on this.
I gather through personal contacts that at least one prominent British humanist has ended their friendship with Dawkins because of his personal transphobia.
I too was moved towards atheism by Dawkins' writing. His argument in Viruses of the Mind helped me a lot. But he has done more harm than good for many years now.
My sister is intersex and had to flee to Canada on a medical visa because of the way she was treated at UC San Francisco, The visa was only for two years and could not be renewed, so she's back here in the San Francisco Bay Area. She is talking about leaving again, but unsure as to where. So, my guess is that your experience--and my sister's--is not all that uncommon.
If your sister has the means to get to Portugal, I recommend it. It's not perfect, no where is, but after a lot of research it ticked more of our boxes by far than any other options available to us.
I'm sorry she had to go back to the U.S. That's quite literally something I have nightmares about, as in the kind I wake up from in distress in the middle of the night. I would sooner take my own life than return to the U.S. now. There is nothing waiting for me there but despair and death.
I know 2 trans people, a man and a woman. One before their transition and one after. Do you want to know something ? I didn't care that they were born with the wrong body and I was happy they could live as themselves. People* are more than a set of genitalia.
Thank you for the suggestion. I will definitely pas it on to my sister. There's a bunch of us in my extended family who may also be interested. Whether or not we can afford it is a whole 'nother can of worms entirely. Just to give a flavor of how dire the situation is even in the SF Bay Area right now, on Thursday I was in the position of having to conceal my gender identity and sexual orientation for the first time in 50+ years in official documentation. That was in Berkeley, California, and I did it because of what has happened to my sister and other people I know--in other words, because I was afraid of being on some official list. So, yeah, not good for anybody's mental health. Unfortunately, I'm somebody who would not be able to get out, even if I wanted to--mostly for financial reasons.
You or your family are welcome to contact me if you start to consider Portugal and have any questions. I am so sorry for what you are going through. It might be more possible to get out than you realize though, depending on your situation.
I have no doubt I'm on lists lol. I'm everything the fascists hate and have been pretty vocal about who I am. Like, I literally ran for state legislature as an openly queer atheist, which made national headlines. As an agender, queer, atheist socialist, I know I'd be among the first they will drag into in an unmarked van. These are terrifying times. 😞
Thank you. I remember joking with my nephew a decade or more ago about "being on a list" (and having an FBI file). It's not at all funny any more. I really don't know what will happen to me or the rest of the people in my family. A few months ago, my nephew's mom joked that we should all go to the Canadian border and wait together, while I ditch my wheelchair (or crutches, depending on the day), crawl across the bridge, and claim asylum for the family. As good a plan as any, I suppose. Graveyard humor is our modus operandi at the moment. That, and making sure everybody has a passport and is squirreling away enough cash for a plane ride to--wherever.
Another not-so-fun fact: the U.S. is one of only two countries in the world (the other being the tiny African country of Eritrea) that taxes citizens on their worldwide earned income even when they live abroad, though emigrants have no representation in U.S. government. (There is a tax treaty between the U.S. and some countries, Portugal included, but my understanding is it only protects you from double taxation for a few years?)
It can be extremely difficult and expensive to renounce citizenship as well, depending on your projected lifetime earnings. The U.S. government's tentacles run deep and are difficult to escape.
Not-so-fun fact: the U.S. is the only country whose citizens cannot claim asylum in other countries by international treaty. This is why I keep urging people like us to get out by any means necessary before it's too late. Getting a passport and squirreling away money is a very good start.
Gallows humor has also been my go-to coping mechanism, but all too often now, what once seemed like being intentionally melodramatic to make a point is becoming too close to reality.
I've seen some 𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘵 in my time hanging around this place, but you're truly determined to go down in FA troll history, aren't you? I mean, 𝘥𝘢𝘮𝘯. I've heard hot takes from 𝘙𝘦𝘱𝘶𝘣𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘯𝘴 with more empathy than you've got.
I don't know if you will read this but the invasion of haters is not typical, it happens only when Hemant criticise dawkins (we have the occasional troll from time to time but they are quickly squashed). Know that you are welcome and don't hesitate to comment on others articles when you have time.
Very much this. People seem to feel the need to rush in and defend Dr. Dick from even the mildest of criticism, no matter where on the internet it occurs- naked transphobia is emphatically 𝘯𝘰𝘵 the norm around here; we ran off the local TERFs several years and a couple of site changes ago.
Thank you. I don't bother engaging with people like that anymore. It's a pointless waste of my time and energy and just gives them the attention they desperately seek.
I hear you... but I quite like being the landmine hidden under the doormat when it comes to visiting transphobes. It wouldn't do to just let bigots walk in unopposed- they might get the notion that they're welcome here, and then 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺'𝘳𝘦 the ones who come back for a second visit instead of folks like you.
Well thank you for your service. I used to fight back. I used to waste hours of my time and pour tremendous amounts of unpaid emotional labor into trying to change people's minds. I thought rational, fact-based arguments could actually be effective. Hahahah. Those were the days.
I'm at such a low point in my life right now, I lack the energy to do much more besides survive, let alone try to get an irrational lizard-brained transphobe to see reason. I'm less than a month away from very likely homelessness because of transphobes, capitalists, and fascists. It's kind of difficult, in this situation, to have much more than extreme hatred in my heart towards them.
I truly wish I could say "it'll get better" and have it be anything but an empty platitude right now, but... I'm kinda up shit creek myself, and a bit short on paddles. Sitting here in a purple state in the spare room of a house I don't own, with no reliable income, an ID with the wrong name on it, and a face that turns into a frelling Chia Pet every morning, just sort of crossing my fingers that the place doesn't flip red next election and... take away the healthcare I can't even afford anyway? That's gonna be 𝘩𝘪𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘶𝘴 if I'm still around in another couple decades, I'm sure. Trans Life 2023, right?
Being catty to bigots on the internet is pretty much what I do to remind myself I'm still here. If they had their way, I wouldn't be. So... if I can poke them hard enough to get them to go mask-off and hate their way face-first into the banhammer, it does give me a little bit of satisfaction to know that there's still a little corner of the world where I'm welcome and 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺'𝘳𝘦 not.
If I can manage to turn things around and survive, I want to try to help other vulnerable people flee the U.S. and find safety here in Portugal. That was always the plan before I even got here, but I didn't anticipate having my work contract canceled. That was a game changer.
I'm really sorry to hear of your situation, too. And like you, I can't offer empty platitudes like "things will be alright," because there's no guarantee they will be and things look so bleak.
Funny thing about that is my experience trying to rationalize with transphobes got ME the banhammer, something I wrote about here. I have been permanently banned from LinkedIn, cut off from my usual means of finding work, right before I also lost my job in what seems to have been an act of retaliation because my socialist ideas might have spread in the workplace.
So, the transphobes won. I tried to defend myself, my trans loved ones, my trans community, and lost so much in the process. I've been struggling to find work since May and I've got about 2 weeks to start working again or come September we will all wind up homeless in Portugal. I've never been so scared in my life, but going back to the U.S. would be even scarier. I'll jump off a bridge here before I allow that to happen.
Why do you think you have a monopoly on so called marginalized groups? what about fat kids, kids that stutter, people ignored because of their physical appearance. You people cannot even talk about this issue without people having to walk on eggshells and your attempts at emotional manipulation. Dawkins does not agree that Trans women are women, as do I, but what does that have to do with emotions? he has never said he does not respect you as a human. Can't you just at least try and discuss the biological part without shouting PHOBE, and ISM words? And what about the majority, especially young girls, who have put their whole being, and finance, and pain into a chosen sport, just to be smashed by a Guy? What about them?
Well, I wouldn't say I'm fine lol. Those were certainly unpleasant messages to have woken up to first thing in the morning yesterday, and served as a reminder of why we left the U.S. I'm just a bit better at protecting my mental energy these days. But today, I was happy to have woken up to these supportive messages, so thanks for that.
Why did you flee the country? As a trans man in a liberal safe state I feel perfectly safe. I even traveled to South Florida last August for a week and was fine, although I couldn’t imagine living there the way it is right now. I just feel moving to another country seems almost overkill, but maybe it’s because I’ve never known what it’s like to be LGBT and live in an unsafe state. But it just seems overkill, and almost fear-mongery.
As you said, you "have never known what it's like to be LGBT and live in an unsafe state." If you have always lived in so-called safe states (and if you weren’t raised among conservative Christians and have a family full of them), you lack the perspective and experience I have to understand why you aren't as safe as you think anywhere in the U.S.
I have also lived in the red part of a blue state (Washingston State) where I was deeply engaged for many years in politics and the kinds of nonprofits conservative Christians demonize, so I have a much higher-than-average level of awareness of the way of things than most people, coupled with a greater-than-average understanding of history and how it echoes in modern day.
In the end, the quality of life, safety, and health, regardless of one's sexual orientation or gender, is vastly superior in most of Europe. Even if all the transphobia went away today, I would not reconsider living in America.
Ah ok. I grew up in a non religious household so I don’t know what it’s like even more. If I were to move somewhere it would be either Finland or Australia, but currently I feel safe were I am. The only downside is it gets cold and I can’t grow my tropical plants outside all year.
Not having so much luck with the trans person who's actually replying, so you'll go after the ones who aren't here right now, hmmm? Go on- dig that hole a little deeper.
Oh, hey, since you love Just Asking Questions, here are a few more to spice up your repertoire a bit:
What's a sentence? What's a thought? Why am I asking these questions? What is a question? What are words? Am I just going to keep asking questions I don't want anyone to answer honestly to make myself look like a badass inquisitor fighting for Truth With a Capital T? Will I ever bother to read the peer-reviewed research instead of puking up the same lines over and over again until I get banhammered off the face of the comment section? Am I a brave iconoclast for taking a position that is literally being trumpeted by the largest right-wing mass media organization on the planet? Where is any of this going? Do I know how to use any other forms of punctuation? Should I put some more things in scare-quotes to be edgy? Why am I bothered so much by the mere existence of people who are different from me? Is my face stuck this way? Did I leave the stove on?
There's gotta be enough in there to build a third blog post around. You're welcome.
38:46: “Nobody wants to be called a bigot, but why does all the abuse go one way?… Why did all the bullying go one way?”
Richard, are you saying that the bigots are being bullied? The people who not only advocate for removing human rights from a class of people out of a hatred for those people are the only ones being bullied?
Have the bigots been beaten to death, dragged by cars down dirt roads, hung by their necks, shot for walking down the street? No the bigots have not, but they’ve done this to other people. Pushing back against violent rhetoric and actions is not bullying. Expecting folks to act with respect, consideration, empathy, and kindness, even when you don’t like a person, is not bullying. It’s a social contract that society has always needed to survive.
All the rest of what he said were just excuses for him to behave counter to the social contract. He just tried to find ways that trans people caused harm, but was not able to really find any harm caused by them, so he stretched for it. Transgender people in sports are not the disaster he claims. Thompson didn’t blow the competition out of the water, she was competitive at the level she was in. It’s remarkable that the one competitor who has a problem with Thompson was tied for fifth place in the race she won, it wasn’t like she would have had an advantage if Thompson wasn’t there. She was the mediocre athlete who is trying to get sympathy by attacking another athlete.
Anyway, these arguments are just excuses to be nasty to a group of marginalized people. Dawkins should just say what it is he’s worried about, being attracted to someone who might have a penis.
Their “logic” is simplicity itself: their victims don’t count as people. Therefore, everything the bigots do to them doesn’t count as bullying. Therefore, the poor bigots are the true victims of bullying here, merely because they’re just doing what they are entitled to do to non-peoples.
Kitten, I understand that you believe you're a Lost Boi, but I'm not Tinkerbell. If I were that magical fairy, we'd hear your rants muffled by the crocodile. 🙂
So, here's the thing, sparky... folks who think like you do have gone a-marching down this road before. Not so terribly long ago that it should be forgotten, a movement full of people with opinions quite like yours set their sights on a place where people quite like us went to learn about themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
So... yes. You're following in the goose-steps which LitErAl NaZis took 90 years ago- and you've well and truly tipped your hand with your name-drops. Kellie Jay Keen marches beside 𝘵𝘰𝘥𝘢𝘺'𝘴 literal fucking Nazis. You want to do what they tried to do, and your attempts to DARVO your way out of the comparison are as obvious as what your bigot buddies want the end result of their efforts to be.
Sweetie, I hate to break it to you, but... 𝘺𝘰𝘶 have a gender identity.
But thanks for telling us you don't like it when people punch Nazis. We appreciate you just letting it all hang out like that- makes it 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 so much easier not to take you seriously.
Personally, I'm fine with people having whatever spaces help them feel comfortable in their environment.
Not sure what you mean by "men like [me]", would love to hear more of your analysis. Go ahead, let's see how you compare to the VA psych folks, the civilian psych folks....you got something new, different, interesting? 🤔
What a disappointment and embarrassment Dawkins has become. He's a demonstration of the hazard of an excellent scientist stepping out of his field of expertise and making a complete fool of himself. Fame and praise are seductive, insidious, and toxic. They can gradually make even the most sober, humble, and rational expert IN ONE FIELD have delusions of universal expertise.
No, I don't want to hear a geologist who works for a petrochemical company opine on anthropogenic climate change. No, I don't want to hear a psychologist, or a particle physicist, or a mathematician, or an astronomer discuss evolutionary theory. Would you get on a plane solely designed by an evolutionary biologist? Neither would I.
Years ago, I got a hat with the embroidered badge of the RDF, the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, but I've been too embarrassed to wear it for the last few years. I'm going to throw it away because it just makes me sad.
Well, there's this filmmaker (an atheist) who designed and helped build a submersible that has taken him to the bottom of the Marianas Trench 3 times and to the Titanic 33 times. ;)
And probably studied the equivalent of a bachelor's in submersible engineering since he knew he was working outside his lane. And I'm sure had many submersible engineers look at his design and the finished product before risking himself, much less anybody else in it.
He has a knack for inventing technology that didn't exist when he needed it. In "The Abyss," he needed dive suits where the actors faces and heads could be seen clearly. Suits they could actually act in and speak dialogue without having to dub it in later. That tech didn't exist before he came up with it.
The CGI used in the "Avatar" films is totally revolutionary. Again, he invented what we saw onscreen.
Years ago, I was in my teens, there was a short bit in a magazine about a couple passioned about diving who wanted to share this with their dog. They finally succeeded in making diving gear for him. How the conceptor(s) of the first submarine did ? :)
The first functioning sub was called The Turtle. It was invented and built here in the US. It was designed by Yale grad David Bushnell and was pressed into action on September 6, 1776. It attacked the HMS Eagle in New York Harbor
Your very own Jacques-Yves Cousteau invented SCUBA in 1943.
The God Delusion was one of the first books I read when I started to deconstruct my faith. It was invaluable to me to see the problems with religion so clearly laid out and addressed. That makes it all the more disappointing to me to see Dawkins go down this path of transphobia. Trans people are asking for only the most basic recognition of human rights. The Christian Right in America demonizes these people and continues to spread lies and misinformation that directly harms lives. Dawkins has the perfect platform to call out this bigotry and approach things from a skeptical, rational viewpoint yet he chooses hate instead.
Interesting how you thought he was making sense as a scientist, and you were even influenced by his argument for rationalism, but the moment he challenges your ideology, you accuse him of being a "transphobe". You are still stuck in a religious mindset, sweetheart.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about me here. This post was from months ago, so I’m not really interested in continuing on with conversations about this, but go off, sweetheart.
Y'know, pardon me for being so blunt about the whole thing, but... I really don't know if the author of a blog that's only managed two hate-posts with zero supporting evidence in six months of existence really has any room to talk about embarrassing themselves.
I suspect you'll be reading literally any of the 50+ studies linked on that page some time between the heat death of the universe and never, but maybe someone else will get something out of it if they didn't see the other link up above. I'd give you an A for effort, but frankly this is C+ trolling at best. Really, what's even the point without at least sprinkling in a little capslock or a few extraneous exclamation marks?
I see we've graduated from "𝘕𝘶𝘩-𝘶𝘩, 𝘚𝘩𝘶𝘵 𝘶𝘱!" to the "𝘓𝘢𝘭𝘢𝘭𝘢𝘭𝘢𝘭𝘢 𝘐 𝘤𝘢𝘯'𝘵 𝘩𝘦𝘦𝘦𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘶𝘶!" school of argumentation.
Fun fact: ignoring the science doesn't make you right. It does make you funny, though. Unless you're a sitting legislator... goodness, but I hope you're not one of 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦, are you?
Idk if you’re illiterate or being purposefully obtuse, but Hemant kindly wrote a whole post on the “facts” that Dawkins got wrong. Maybe you should do us all a favor and read it, take some time to process the things he said, check out some peer reviewed sources, talk to a few trans people, and get back to us. Or don’t. Honestly it’s probably better if you don’t.
So far, all of your "evidence" has been pulled out of your ass. Btw, hearing voices is not the same as actually having a conversation with a real person.
Oh, honey. You seem angry about something- did you actually think you were being original, posting something that nobody has ever been brave enough to say before? Your like have been trying to get rid of my like for the entirety of human history, chum- it's never worked before, and it won't work this time either.
But hey, don't let that stop you from regurgitating the same post another half a dozen times. I'm sure it'll be more convincing then!
"By Jove, I've got it- I shall opine with a vomitus of buzzwords and insults, and sign off with a jovial 'Cheers, Mate!' as though I've just dropped a microphone! They won't know what hit them!"
Ooooookay. Most of the time, I don't post too much in this sort of thread, but I guess today I'm brave or something. Normally, I just read the article and wish Dawkins would shut up about it since it's pretty clear his opinion is more than a shade irrational. Today, I guess I'm up for more.
As a very boring cis woman, I don't understand despite best efforts why some folks are trans and what that really means to them. I'm not sure I'm equipped to understand, if I'm being truthful. That isn't important here. What's important (to me, anyway) is that I recognize that not everybody got the same luxury I did: born with the same body parts that match up to what I think I am. Life isn't fair, and it can be unfair in more ways than I have space to go over in one post and the whole gender match-up thing is just one of the ways it can be unfair. It seems to me that at some point, we as humans should at least make an effort to be better than how life treats us, because if we don't, it's just not going to happen.
In the long run, treating trans people as their preferred gender with both the right name and the right pronoun is just a tiny little start. Allowing people to change physically to their gender identity should be the rule rather than the exception, since so far as I can tell there's really no good reason to stop them. I may not understand, but I firmly believe in compassion for the human condition in all its iterations, and I see no reason to stop that just because someone's gender identity causes some individuals not directly involved to be uncomfortable.
Valuing people as people should be the default, not a conditional offer.
As a woman, I don't know what 'invasion of single sex spaces' you're talking about. Also, I'm not familiar with any situations where anyone lost a prize or opportunity to a trans person where the prize was intended for a specific gender. I would note that there have been many, many, many occasions when a female has had an award, prize, or other recognition taken by a male counterpart, however.
At this point, you should be aware that your response above comes off to me as patronizing and superior rather than any kind of attempt at being helpful. I honestly believe I am doing the right thing to the best of my ability on the issue, and your post in no way gives my any reason to change that position; if you're looking to win people over this is not going to help your cause. It may be helpful to post examples of the situations you're characterizing when you make these points in the future. Good luck.
Dawkins reminds me a great deal of the "happy", "shiny" bigots of Evangelical land.
You know, the ones who say, "Oh, we accept anyone in our churches," and then spends all of their time talking about how homosexuality is a sin and voting for reich-wing bigot politicians. But they sure do "love" their gay neighbors, they say.
Nearly all I learned about biology at school was between 30 and 25 years ago but I know this. Coupling 2 differents DNA is a roll of dices, sometimes you end up with 3 chromosomes instead of 2, sometimes you are born blind or albinos.
Who is dawkins to define who is a woman or not. I am a cis woman who can grow a beard, does that mean I am not a woman for someone who doesn't believe or understand hormones imbalance ? You just have to replace trans people by POC and remember Emmett Till, Breonna Taylor or Trayvon Martin. Transphobia kills.
Joan if you read this, you are more a sister for me than marine le pen or jk rowling.
"a child who said she went to a school where being gay or trans was seen as “cool,” and that made her question being heterosexual."
So it sounds like Dawkins, like this no doubt not-imaginary child, doesn't understand the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. And we're supposed to respect his opinion on this subject? Yeah, sure.
And as for sports competition, I can't help wondering why the transphobes never mention the well-known instances where trans athletes have LOST to cis athletes. Remember the controversy a few months back about trans swimmer Lia Thomas? The phobes were screaming their heads off that she had such an unfair advantage, she was sure to win. Then...she lost. And from the phobes we heard nothing but crickets. And a few months ago in the UK a trans soccer ("football") team played in a high profile match against a--cis team...and LOST. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/04/all-trans-soccer-team-radiates-joy-in-history-making-match/ But no, no, no, trans athletes have such a hideous advantage that they will ALWAYS win over those poor, feeble cis jocks.. Un-huh.
Dawkins has a lot of damn nerve to be still presenting himself as a champion of reason when he obviously can't deal with clear, simple facts.
The reality check in the sports debate should be that it's not just one trans athlete who has lost against the same competitors they were vilified for winning against on another occasion- it's literally all of them. Every. Single. One. Every last case that has blown up in the news, that's what you find when you scratch the surface and actually look at their record.
Besides which...
Are there valid concerns about some prospective athletes with some physical advantages? Sure. 𝘉𝘶𝘵 𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘴 𝘸𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘥𝘥𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘥𝘦𝘤𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘨𝘰. The same concerns have always existed about cis athletes who are physically exceptional in one way or another compared to the rest of their field, to a degree that would threaten the fairness of the competition. Every major athletic organization reviews their member athletes for anomalous performances. Every major athletic organization has mechanisms by which to remove or restrict athletes whose performances are suspect in some way. They have had these things for way, way longer than this issue has been in the public eye. Some of the standards and guidelines might need to be updated in some athletic conferences, but that happens regularly anyway.
There's just nothing here worthy of the international shitstorm that's been raging over it.
So, Katie Ledecky just surpassed Michael Phelps in number of gold medals in national championships. She’s known for breaking men’s spirits in practice because she wipes the floor with these guys and isn’t even aware they’re trying to compete with her. She is absolutely a cis woman, but because she’s performing better than a man or several men, they are bitching that she must be trans. There’s the little girl with a short haircut attacked at a track meet by some right wing paranoid grandpa thinking she was a boy and somehow it’s the end of the world a child compete in a race they don’t look like they belong in. They do this to every woman in almost all area, not just sports, any woman who has notoriety gets some fucking asshole on the internet nowadays claiming her Adam’s Apple is too big, her back is too straight, her arms too bulky, or her face too homely to be a real woman. And they think that the folks supporting transgender people are confused about what a woman is.
Transgender athletes are rare, they are not the monsters they’re portrayed as, and they are not taking away women’s sports. What they are are excuses for bigots to be awful to other human beings because those awful human beings vilified them. “If a trans woman wants to swim and she beats my precious little girl then the trans woman must be a bad person, therefore I can abuse the trans woman and the trans community. And if my little girl can’t win against this cis woman, well, then she must be trans because my little precious baby deserves to win even if she loses.”
Yup- it's a wedge. Before wingnuts hit on using trans athletes as a wedge, they had nothing but contempt for women's sports. Now they care very deeply about fairness in the very competitions which yesterday they were insisting didn't even merit paying attention to. If they can drive in this wedge, then it makes room for the next one, and the next. If they can ban trans women in sports (and bathrooms, and anywhere else) then they can make it acceptable to harass non-conforming cis women, physically-gifted cis women... and eventually, women just don't get to play sports, because they've all been poked, prodded, and abused off the field for not being "womanly" enough- read that: meek, compliant, and subordinate to their "betters."
The bigots' endgame is control, as it always is and always has been.
The IOC ruled to allow out transgender athletes to compete in the Olympics in 2004. The first out transgender athletes to actually qualify did so for the Summer 2020 games, which were held in 2021 instead because of the pandemic. More than 70,000 athletes had competed in the Olympics, both Winter and Summer games, since 2004 at that point. Trans people account for between 0.6%-1% of the population, but 2 out of 70,000 is less than 0.00005%- demonstrating a massive 𝘶𝘯𝘥𝘦𝘳representation of trans athletes in not just women's sports but sports in general, rather than the 𝘰𝘷𝘦𝘳representation transphobes like yourself keep scaremongering about.
One of those two whole athletes, out of more than 70,000, was a trans woman from New Zealand who had undergone medical transition. She competed in weightlifting. She did not win any medals. The other was an AFAB nonbinary athlete, who had received no medical transition care, competing on the Canadian Women's Soccer team, which did take home gold... but doesn't add anything substantive to the argument, since said athlete had the same body type and chemistry as every other athlete on the field.
The scenario you propose is ludicrous- if it were going to happen, it already would have in the nearly two decades it has been possible for trans women to qualify for women's Olympic events. It has not. Your concern is a nothingburger.
There's even the story of the olympian who identified as female, presented as female, physically had the genitalia of a female, was raised as a female, competed as a female but when testing became widespread was disqualified because of high testosterone. After years of appeals it was found she has sterile, diminutive testes in her abdomen that threw off the tests. She finally was reinstated and apologized to. I can't find the article but this was in the 70's or 80's.
He was also the superhero The Spleen in "Mystery Men" as well as the vampire Amilyn in the film version of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and so much more.
I love "Mystery Men". Especially Janeane Garofalo's Baby Bowler arguing with her father. "OK, now I'm going back to graduate school. That was the agreement."
Mystery Men rocks. We watch it regularly and the kids even stick around to watch it, which is not common anymore in our house. The Spleen was fantastic.
I received this as a reply to a post over at today's 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘋𝘦𝘷𝘪𝘭'𝘴 𝘗𝘢𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘦𝘴.
"The paradox of tolerance disappears when you stop seeing tolerance as a moral absolute and instead as a peace treaty. The protections of a peace treaty only extends to those abiding by its terms."
𝐓𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐚 𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐚𝐥 𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭
"Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats. It means that we accept that people may be different from us, in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms. It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact."
Mouse-over text: "My family has been squatters on American soil for two hundred years but my kids are brown, so now I've gotta swing my southern stick at some pickup trucks."
Dawkins may be a good resource for evolutionary biology, but sex determination and gender identity are definitely outside of his wheelhouse. He has allowed his prejudice to prevent him from updating his knowledge of that aspect of biology for half a century. Using the authority of his PhD to push his outdated notions makes him a garbage human.
I have. Biological sex in humans is a bimodal, not binary. Gender identity is a societal construct, and NOT the same as biological sex. It is ALSO bimodal and not binary.
To borrow a phrase: "What we got here ... is a failure to empathize." I'm not just talking about Dawkins here, though he and Rowling and too many others fall under that heading. I'm talking about ANYONE whose powers of perception haven't the ability to understand that gender is easily at least as much about MINDSET as it is about physiology. I'm not 100% certain why I get it, though a dear friend of mine helped when she related the story of her husband's bout with gender dysphoria, the transition, and the remarkable change in attitude, self-image, practically EVERY personality marker once she fully realized her true self.
Don't ask me WHY I get that, but I do. Wish others did. 😔
I will never understand why people say things like this and think they're actually being clever and scathing. "It's all in your mind"- well... 𝘥𝘶𝘩. Your whole sense of self is in your mind, dear. 'Tis how those squishy "brain" things work- you might've read about them in 𝘣𝘪𝘰𝘭𝘰𝘨𝘺 class.
Joe King, Joan Of Dork, and NOGODZ have already addressed your points, and yet you mysteriously are unable to respond to them or even acknowledge them. Who is the one crying here?
And normal people are already seeing what teeny tiny little worldviews you have.
I am liking Richard Dawkins less and less every day. Though he has been good in fighting the religious non-sense, I think in this it could be an unexpressed bigotry at play here while pretending to be under the umbrella of science. Notice his remarks are that of sex and not gender.
Ah, the infallible and incontrovertible "𝘕𝘶𝘩-𝘶𝘩! 𝘚𝘩𝘶𝘵 𝘶𝘱!" school of argumentation- truly, dear friends, we are in the presence of an intellectual giant.
Just this morning, I was reading a Slate profile of RFK Jr. A man who started off with a healthy skepticism about corporate malfeasance and regulatory capture, who came to believe that big pharma is pushing harmful vaccines and 5G is a plot to control our minds.
In my youth, I read pretty much everything Dawkins had to say and it had a role in shaping my world view (or at least providing scientific support to Bertrand Russell's more philosophical approach). Now he has come to this.
I hope this kind of irrational paranoia doesn't take over my brain as a I get older (I'm 60 now) but if it does I hope someone loves me enough to put me out of my misery.
You'll be alright. Recognizing the need to maintain healthy skepticism while watching out for the rabbit holes of conspiracy theory bullshit will keep you out of trouble.
Well, I'm 78 and it hasn't taken me over, so hang in there!! If anything, I've become more liberal as I age, though I don't think a modicum of paranoia about MAGAt types is misplaced.
"Joyce has previously said transgender people who have transitioned are 'damaged' and 'a huge problem to a sane world.'"
Certain people, not so long ago, said similar things about people openly identifying as homosexual. Many still do! And once upon a time, women who didn't want to marry or have children were thought to be mentally ill and were medicated or institutionalized so they could be "fixed". These are the same old, crusty bigots who, in another time, would also be arguing that black people were biologically closer to apes than white people.
This just seems like the latest iteration of a cyclical phenomenon that is perpetuated by the same type of people throughout history in response to any form of social progress. It's always those who benefit most from the status quo who push back the hardest and whose narcissism fuels their need for a scapegoat to distract from their own insecurities and to fulfill their need to maintain power and control over others. And, predictably, they resort to playing the victim when they get called out for their intolerance and fallacious arguments. It's the same old script, just a different chapter, along with another round of unnecessary suffering for those who are currently being marginalized.
But just as homosexuality, black equality, and women's equality became more normalized, so too will the existence of trans identities. It's inevitable and they can either learn to accept it or cling to their ignorance and bigotry and accept that history will remember them poorly.
Homophobia and transphobia are treatable illnesses. Please consult with a licensed mental health care professional for more information and help. You don't have to suffer.
RationalWiki is snarky at times but they always get their facts straight and provide their extensive sources (over a hundred, in this case).
Documenting what she's said and done is "bias?" Did you somehow miss the fact that they led off with a direct quote from her on eliminating transgenders? Selective blindness? Go ahead, then. Disprove that vicious pack of facts.
This article is 10 days old and transphobes are still swarming on it? Were they waiting for everyone to leave so there would be less pushback? Move on, already.
Yes, a partial quote taken out of context. If the info gathered there is all you know about her then you know too little to make a reasonable judgement about her and her intentions. That you would believe that Dawkins “deplores trans people” then you are clearly clueless. Disagree with him, criticize his statements, challenge his points if you feel you should but to imagine that he actually harbors ill will toward anyone is foolishness.
I deleted my original reply because I was unsatisfied with it.
"Yes, it's a partial quote taken out of context." How much of the quote would it have taken to convince you? I get the feeling nothing would have been good enough for you. And thanks for using that old religious chestnut "You're taking it out of context!" when it is clearly not out of context. It's her own words.
"That you would believe Dawkins "deplore trans people" then you are clearly clueless."
Where did I say that in my post about Joyce? Who was talking about Dawkins? I was talking about Joyce. The entry about Joyce makes no mention of Dawkins. You went right off Joyce and into Dawkins, claws out. You say to criticize him, then you call me clueless by asserting I said something I did not say; that you made up. Oh, and "That you would believe that Dawkins deplores trans people and "...but to imagine that he actually harbors ill will toward anyone" (again, something I did not say in my post about Joyce) are both "Argument from Incredulity," a logical fallacy.
In the end, you are simply going to ignore everything in this posted entry that you don't personally like and because it illustrates what an ignorant, hateful person Joyce is. That you support her seemingly-endless, clueless, foolish phobias speaks volumes about you.
Oh, just found it a little further down. This is what you posted that I was referring to about you saying, you know, that Dawkins deplores trans people. Yep, you said that. “ You deplore trans people, Dicky. Unfortunately for you, transgenderism doesn't stop being true because you deplore it.”
Thank you for taking this topic on. I got about 5 minutes into Dawkins’ podcast and noped out to spare my sanity. It hurts too much to write about it much myself, since my loved ones and I are among the targets of his anti-scientific bigotry.
It was writers like Dawkins who helped me to finally embrace atheism after years of post-Christianity wandering. I've shared his books and other media content with many people over the years, including my own father who also came to identify as an atheist after reading The God Delusion. (We even went on a road trip together to see Dawkins speak and meet him in person.)
But now Dawkins is doing so much harm, not just to the atheist movement, but to science itself. And it hurts me personally to see him advance these ideas that have completely destabilized my loved ones and me.
I am agender and my fiancée is trans. My son and his partner are trans. My oldest kid is gender non-conforming and their partner is intersex and nonbinary. Because of anti-trans rhetoric and laws being passed, we were no longer safe in the U.S., the country we were all born in. My fiancée even fought for her country as an Army Ranger and is permanently disabled as a result, but was unsafe in that same country she nearly gave her life itself for.
We fled to Portugal, leaving behind everything we owned that couldn’t be fit into our suitcases because of this bigotry. We lost everything, including our primary source of income, because of America's descent into fascism and scapegoating of people like us.
Not only is he just flat out factually wrong, he is toxic. He is a traitor to his profession and to humanity.
Yeah, similar feelings here. I'm trans, and it just pushes too many of my buttons to engage closely with much of this stuff. I'm glad Hemant has been a vocal ally on this.
I gather through personal contacts that at least one prominent British humanist has ended their friendship with Dawkins because of his personal transphobia.
I too was moved towards atheism by Dawkins' writing. His argument in Viruses of the Mind helped me a lot. But he has done more harm than good for many years now.
My sister is intersex and had to flee to Canada on a medical visa because of the way she was treated at UC San Francisco, The visa was only for two years and could not be renewed, so she's back here in the San Francisco Bay Area. She is talking about leaving again, but unsure as to where. So, my guess is that your experience--and my sister's--is not all that uncommon.
If your sister has the means to get to Portugal, I recommend it. It's not perfect, no where is, but after a lot of research it ticked more of our boxes by far than any other options available to us.
I'm sorry she had to go back to the U.S. That's quite literally something I have nightmares about, as in the kind I wake up from in distress in the middle of the night. I would sooner take my own life than return to the U.S. now. There is nothing waiting for me there but despair and death.
I know 2 trans people, a man and a woman. One before their transition and one after. Do you want to know something ? I didn't care that they were born with the wrong body and I was happy they could live as themselves. People* are more than a set of genitalia.
* Dickheads excluded.
Thank you for the suggestion. I will definitely pas it on to my sister. There's a bunch of us in my extended family who may also be interested. Whether or not we can afford it is a whole 'nother can of worms entirely. Just to give a flavor of how dire the situation is even in the SF Bay Area right now, on Thursday I was in the position of having to conceal my gender identity and sexual orientation for the first time in 50+ years in official documentation. That was in Berkeley, California, and I did it because of what has happened to my sister and other people I know--in other words, because I was afraid of being on some official list. So, yeah, not good for anybody's mental health. Unfortunately, I'm somebody who would not be able to get out, even if I wanted to--mostly for financial reasons.
You or your family are welcome to contact me if you start to consider Portugal and have any questions. I am so sorry for what you are going through. It might be more possible to get out than you realize though, depending on your situation.
I have no doubt I'm on lists lol. I'm everything the fascists hate and have been pretty vocal about who I am. Like, I literally ran for state legislature as an openly queer atheist, which made national headlines. As an agender, queer, atheist socialist, I know I'd be among the first they will drag into in an unmarked van. These are terrifying times. 😞
Thank you. I remember joking with my nephew a decade or more ago about "being on a list" (and having an FBI file). It's not at all funny any more. I really don't know what will happen to me or the rest of the people in my family. A few months ago, my nephew's mom joked that we should all go to the Canadian border and wait together, while I ditch my wheelchair (or crutches, depending on the day), crawl across the bridge, and claim asylum for the family. As good a plan as any, I suppose. Graveyard humor is our modus operandi at the moment. That, and making sure everybody has a passport and is squirreling away enough cash for a plane ride to--wherever.
Another not-so-fun fact: the U.S. is one of only two countries in the world (the other being the tiny African country of Eritrea) that taxes citizens on their worldwide earned income even when they live abroad, though emigrants have no representation in U.S. government. (There is a tax treaty between the U.S. and some countries, Portugal included, but my understanding is it only protects you from double taxation for a few years?)
It can be extremely difficult and expensive to renounce citizenship as well, depending on your projected lifetime earnings. The U.S. government's tentacles run deep and are difficult to escape.
Not-so-fun fact: the U.S. is the only country whose citizens cannot claim asylum in other countries by international treaty. This is why I keep urging people like us to get out by any means necessary before it's too late. Getting a passport and squirreling away money is a very good start.
Gallows humor has also been my go-to coping mechanism, but all too often now, what once seemed like being intentionally melodramatic to make a point is becoming too close to reality.
"𝘓𝘦𝘵 𝘮𝘦 𝘫𝘶𝘴𝘵 𝘢𝘯𝘨𝘳𝘪𝘭𝘺 𝘥𝘦𝘯𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘦𝘹𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘭𝘦𝘦 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘴, 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 𝘰𝘱𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘣𝘺 𝘱𝘦𝘰𝘱𝘭𝘦 𝘭𝘪𝘬𝘦 𝘮𝘺 𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 𝘰𝘸𝘯 𝘣𝘪𝘨𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘧, 𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 𝘧𝘢𝘤𝘦𝘴!"
I've seen some 𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘵 in my time hanging around this place, but you're truly determined to go down in FA troll history, aren't you? I mean, 𝘥𝘢𝘮𝘯. I've heard hot takes from 𝘙𝘦𝘱𝘶𝘣𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘯𝘴 with more empathy than you've got.
Virtual hug from France for you and your loved ones.
I don't know if you will read this but the invasion of haters is not typical, it happens only when Hemant criticise dawkins (we have the occasional troll from time to time but they are quickly squashed). Know that you are welcome and don't hesitate to comment on others articles when you have time.
Very much this. People seem to feel the need to rush in and defend Dr. Dick from even the mildest of criticism, no matter where on the internet it occurs- naked transphobia is emphatically 𝘯𝘰𝘵 the norm around here; we ran off the local TERFs several years and a couple of site changes ago.
I remember, I was there too :)
Funny how when a white cis man, either on the right or the left, is concerned he can do or say no wrong.
Mon vieux, j'te connais ni d'Eve, ni d'Adam, va piquer ta crise ailleurs.
Thank you. I don't bother engaging with people like that anymore. It's a pointless waste of my time and energy and just gives them the attention they desperately seek.
I hear you... but I quite like being the landmine hidden under the doormat when it comes to visiting transphobes. It wouldn't do to just let bigots walk in unopposed- they might get the notion that they're welcome here, and then 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺'𝘳𝘦 the ones who come back for a second visit instead of folks like you.
Well thank you for your service. I used to fight back. I used to waste hours of my time and pour tremendous amounts of unpaid emotional labor into trying to change people's minds. I thought rational, fact-based arguments could actually be effective. Hahahah. Those were the days.
I'm at such a low point in my life right now, I lack the energy to do much more besides survive, let alone try to get an irrational lizard-brained transphobe to see reason. I'm less than a month away from very likely homelessness because of transphobes, capitalists, and fascists. It's kind of difficult, in this situation, to have much more than extreme hatred in my heart towards them.
I truly wish I could say "it'll get better" and have it be anything but an empty platitude right now, but... I'm kinda up shit creek myself, and a bit short on paddles. Sitting here in a purple state in the spare room of a house I don't own, with no reliable income, an ID with the wrong name on it, and a face that turns into a frelling Chia Pet every morning, just sort of crossing my fingers that the place doesn't flip red next election and... take away the healthcare I can't even afford anyway? That's gonna be 𝘩𝘪𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘶𝘴 if I'm still around in another couple decades, I'm sure. Trans Life 2023, right?
Being catty to bigots on the internet is pretty much what I do to remind myself I'm still here. If they had their way, I wouldn't be. So... if I can poke them hard enough to get them to go mask-off and hate their way face-first into the banhammer, it does give me a little bit of satisfaction to know that there's still a little corner of the world where I'm welcome and 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺'𝘳𝘦 not.
Should you want to read about the horror that is LinkedIn, btw:
https://open.substack.com/pub/jdgoulet/p/how-linkedin-kicked-me-into-poverty?r=10bxpq&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
If I can manage to turn things around and survive, I want to try to help other vulnerable people flee the U.S. and find safety here in Portugal. That was always the plan before I even got here, but I didn't anticipate having my work contract canceled. That was a game changer.
I'm really sorry to hear of your situation, too. And like you, I can't offer empty platitudes like "things will be alright," because there's no guarantee they will be and things look so bleak.
Funny thing about that is my experience trying to rationalize with transphobes got ME the banhammer, something I wrote about here. I have been permanently banned from LinkedIn, cut off from my usual means of finding work, right before I also lost my job in what seems to have been an act of retaliation because my socialist ideas might have spread in the workplace.
So, the transphobes won. I tried to defend myself, my trans loved ones, my trans community, and lost so much in the process. I've been struggling to find work since May and I've got about 2 weeks to start working again or come September we will all wind up homeless in Portugal. I've never been so scared in my life, but going back to the U.S. would be even scarier. I'll jump off a bridge here before I allow that to happen.
Why do you think you have a monopoly on so called marginalized groups? what about fat kids, kids that stutter, people ignored because of their physical appearance. You people cannot even talk about this issue without people having to walk on eggshells and your attempts at emotional manipulation. Dawkins does not agree that Trans women are women, as do I, but what does that have to do with emotions? he has never said he does not respect you as a human. Can't you just at least try and discuss the biological part without shouting PHOBE, and ISM words? And what about the majority, especially young girls, who have put their whole being, and finance, and pain into a chosen sport, just to be smashed by a Guy? What about them?
I am glad you are fine.
Well, I wouldn't say I'm fine lol. Those were certainly unpleasant messages to have woken up to first thing in the morning yesterday, and served as a reminder of why we left the U.S. I'm just a bit better at protecting my mental energy these days. But today, I was happy to have woken up to these supportive messages, so thanks for that.
Why did you flee the country? As a trans man in a liberal safe state I feel perfectly safe. I even traveled to South Florida last August for a week and was fine, although I couldn’t imagine living there the way it is right now. I just feel moving to another country seems almost overkill, but maybe it’s because I’ve never known what it’s like to be LGBT and live in an unsafe state. But it just seems overkill, and almost fear-mongery.
As you said, you "have never known what it's like to be LGBT and live in an unsafe state." If you have always lived in so-called safe states (and if you weren’t raised among conservative Christians and have a family full of them), you lack the perspective and experience I have to understand why you aren't as safe as you think anywhere in the U.S.
I have also lived in the red part of a blue state (Washingston State) where I was deeply engaged for many years in politics and the kinds of nonprofits conservative Christians demonize, so I have a much higher-than-average level of awareness of the way of things than most people, coupled with a greater-than-average understanding of history and how it echoes in modern day.
In the end, the quality of life, safety, and health, regardless of one's sexual orientation or gender, is vastly superior in most of Europe. Even if all the transphobia went away today, I would not reconsider living in America.
Ah ok. I grew up in a non religious household so I don’t know what it’s like even more. If I were to move somewhere it would be either Finland or Australia, but currently I feel safe were I am. The only downside is it gets cold and I can’t grow my tropical plants outside all year.
I'm glad you feel safe. May that safety last for you.
Protip, sparky- it only counts as fashionably late when you show up while the party's still going on.
Not having so much luck with the trans person who's actually replying, so you'll go after the ones who aren't here right now, hmmm? Go on- dig that hole a little deeper.
She speak to herself too. Isn't it considered a symptom of insanity ?
I, for the most part, meet a better class of person when I talk to myself.
If you live in a maga/gop county I can understand.
No ifs ands, or buts about it.
“Drink your wine, listen to the crickets
It's so fine out here in the thickets
Sittin' on a tree stump, that's the ticket, uh-huh“
Oh, hey, since you love Just Asking Questions, here are a few more to spice up your repertoire a bit:
What's a sentence? What's a thought? Why am I asking these questions? What is a question? What are words? Am I just going to keep asking questions I don't want anyone to answer honestly to make myself look like a badass inquisitor fighting for Truth With a Capital T? Will I ever bother to read the peer-reviewed research instead of puking up the same lines over and over again until I get banhammered off the face of the comment section? Am I a brave iconoclast for taking a position that is literally being trumpeted by the largest right-wing mass media organization on the planet? Where is any of this going? Do I know how to use any other forms of punctuation? Should I put some more things in scare-quotes to be edgy? Why am I bothered so much by the mere existence of people who are different from me? Is my face stuck this way? Did I leave the stove on?
There's gotta be enough in there to build a third blog post around. You're welcome.
Truth With a Capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for "piss off transphobe (who is apparently banned now)?"
You made my day. I have a big smile just by reading this. And you made DM laugh too 😁
38:46: “Nobody wants to be called a bigot, but why does all the abuse go one way?… Why did all the bullying go one way?”
Richard, are you saying that the bigots are being bullied? The people who not only advocate for removing human rights from a class of people out of a hatred for those people are the only ones being bullied?
Have the bigots been beaten to death, dragged by cars down dirt roads, hung by their necks, shot for walking down the street? No the bigots have not, but they’ve done this to other people. Pushing back against violent rhetoric and actions is not bullying. Expecting folks to act with respect, consideration, empathy, and kindness, even when you don’t like a person, is not bullying. It’s a social contract that society has always needed to survive.
All the rest of what he said were just excuses for him to behave counter to the social contract. He just tried to find ways that trans people caused harm, but was not able to really find any harm caused by them, so he stretched for it. Transgender people in sports are not the disaster he claims. Thompson didn’t blow the competition out of the water, she was competitive at the level she was in. It’s remarkable that the one competitor who has a problem with Thompson was tied for fifth place in the race she won, it wasn’t like she would have had an advantage if Thompson wasn’t there. She was the mediocre athlete who is trying to get sympathy by attacking another athlete.
Anyway, these arguments are just excuses to be nasty to a group of marginalized people. Dawkins should just say what it is he’s worried about, being attracted to someone who might have a penis.
𝑤ℎ𝑦 𝑑𝑜𝑒𝑠 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑎𝑏𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑔𝑜 𝑜𝑛𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑦?
I wonder if Dawkins understands the difference between punching DOWN and punching UP. One can hope he's not THAT obtuse, but these days...
Their “logic” is simplicity itself: their victims don’t count as people. Therefore, everything the bigots do to them doesn’t count as bullying. Therefore, the poor bigots are the true victims of bullying here, merely because they’re just doing what they are entitled to do to non-peoples.
Well, that one is going HARD on proving my point.
At this point, I'm all for bullying bigots.
I'm not the soft, tolerant, pacifist leftie libtard of their stereotyped fever-dreams; I'm more the throat-punch-a-nazi type.
And.....?
Um, wut?
(Do you need an adult, sweetie?)
I see the author here deletes comments that are disagreeable. Reminds me of religious censorship. What a hypocrite.
That's to be expected, you've don't nothing but throw words with wanton disregard for them, you, and others. 🙂
Kitten, I understand that you believe you're a Lost Boi, but I'm not Tinkerbell. If I were that magical fairy, we'd hear your rants muffled by the crocodile. 🙂
So you'd give the world for me to throat-punch a Nazi? Interesting.......🤔
That sounds like something a psychopath would say. Hmmmm.......🤔
Oh, you believe that I'm Tinkerbell....got it, you're a Lost Boi. (Maybe not post right after bar closing.....🤔)
Um, wut? Try again, in English this time? (I don't speak transphobe. 😉)
So, here's the thing, sparky... folks who think like you do have gone a-marching down this road before. Not so terribly long ago that it should be forgotten, a movement full of people with opinions quite like yours set their sights on a place where people quite like us went to learn about themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
Pictured- literal Nazis literally burning a whoooole bunch of research devoted to this exact subject, looted from the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft four days prior: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/images/large/404e35c3-5fac-4f59-95b9-1a9982683c88.jpg
So... yes. You're following in the goose-steps which LitErAl NaZis took 90 years ago- and you've well and truly tipped your hand with your name-drops. Kellie Jay Keen marches beside 𝘵𝘰𝘥𝘢𝘺'𝘴 literal fucking Nazis. You want to do what they tried to do, and your attempts to DARVO your way out of the comparison are as obvious as what your bigot buddies want the end result of their efforts to be.
Every accusation is a confession.
Okay, what about the transwomen who are literally being murdered by your kind?
Sweetie, I hate to break it to you, but... 𝘺𝘰𝘶 have a gender identity.
But thanks for telling us you don't like it when people punch Nazis. We appreciate you just letting it all hang out like that- makes it 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 so much easier not to take you seriously.
You object to being called a Nazi. Fine, all well and good. But then why don't you have a problem behaving like one? Just asking.
NO, actually being called a '' NAZI'' or better yet,'' HITLER'' or even Better, '' HIMMLER'' by the Likes of YOU is an absolute badge of honor for me.
You better be careful, I will Misgender you, and throw some wrong Pro nouns at you.
Bar closing posts are amusing. Didn't have it in ya to get it out at the pub, eh? 🤔
From the American Psychological Association: https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression
From the American Medical Association: https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/population-care/advocating-lgbtq-community
From the American Academy of Pediatrics: https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2018/aap-policy-statement-urges-support-and-care-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-children-and-adolescents/
...and the same link to 55 studies into the efficacy of transition care compiled by Cornell University, which I've posted three times now: https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
I will decline to hold my breath while you read exactly none of that.
Um, wut?
Personally, I'm fine with people having whatever spaces help them feel comfortable in their environment.
Not sure what you mean by "men like [me]", would love to hear more of your analysis. Go ahead, let's see how you compare to the VA psych folks, the civilian psych folks....you got something new, different, interesting? 🤔
As a woman I would feel safer with you than any TERF.
T'es qui pour me blazer et te ramener à jouer les adjudants ? J'gamberge c'que j'veux OK ? Ta pseudo science de nazillonne me fout la gerbe.
Rampe dans le marigot puant dont tu n'aurais jamais du sortir spéce de morveuse mal élèvée. En un mot comme en cent, du balai.
Et si balancer du vitriol à gauche à droite n'est pas attaquer, va t'acheter un dico si tu sais ce que c'est bien sûr.
Have you considered fucking straight off? This isn't a burn pit, you don't belong here.
What a disappointment and embarrassment Dawkins has become. He's a demonstration of the hazard of an excellent scientist stepping out of his field of expertise and making a complete fool of himself. Fame and praise are seductive, insidious, and toxic. They can gradually make even the most sober, humble, and rational expert IN ONE FIELD have delusions of universal expertise.
No, I don't want to hear a geologist who works for a petrochemical company opine on anthropogenic climate change. No, I don't want to hear a psychologist, or a particle physicist, or a mathematician, or an astronomer discuss evolutionary theory. Would you get on a plane solely designed by an evolutionary biologist? Neither would I.
Years ago, I got a hat with the embroidered badge of the RDF, the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, but I've been too embarrassed to wear it for the last few years. I'm going to throw it away because it just makes me sad.
Would you get in a submersible designed by a rocket scientist? (Is it too soon?)
Well, there's this filmmaker (an atheist) who designed and helped build a submersible that has taken him to the bottom of the Marianas Trench 3 times and to the Titanic 33 times. ;)
And probably studied the equivalent of a bachelor's in submersible engineering since he knew he was working outside his lane. And I'm sure had many submersible engineers look at his design and the finished product before risking himself, much less anybody else in it.
He has a knack for inventing technology that didn't exist when he needed it. In "The Abyss," he needed dive suits where the actors faces and heads could be seen clearly. Suits they could actually act in and speak dialogue without having to dub it in later. That tech didn't exist before he came up with it.
The CGI used in the "Avatar" films is totally revolutionary. Again, he invented what we saw onscreen.
Years ago, I was in my teens, there was a short bit in a magazine about a couple passioned about diving who wanted to share this with their dog. They finally succeeded in making diving gear for him. How the conceptor(s) of the first submarine did ? :)
The first functioning sub was called The Turtle. It was invented and built here in the US. It was designed by Yale grad David Bushnell and was pressed into action on September 6, 1776. It attacked the HMS Eagle in New York Harbor
Your very own Jacques-Yves Cousteau invented SCUBA in 1943.
There's a dog named Benji that wore specialized diving gear back in 1980. :)
OT, you still have your old Ask Richard email?
Yes, I do.
Great, I have some astronomy questions I might send your way.
The God Delusion was one of the first books I read when I started to deconstruct my faith. It was invaluable to me to see the problems with religion so clearly laid out and addressed. That makes it all the more disappointing to me to see Dawkins go down this path of transphobia. Trans people are asking for only the most basic recognition of human rights. The Christian Right in America demonizes these people and continues to spread lies and misinformation that directly harms lives. Dawkins has the perfect platform to call out this bigotry and approach things from a skeptical, rational viewpoint yet he chooses hate instead.
Interesting how you thought he was making sense as a scientist, and you were even influenced by his argument for rationalism, but the moment he challenges your ideology, you accuse him of being a "transphobe". You are still stuck in a religious mindset, sweetheart.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about me here. This post was from months ago, so I’m not really interested in continuing on with conversations about this, but go off, sweetheart.
Y'know, pardon me for being so blunt about the whole thing, but... I really don't know if the author of a blog that's only managed two hate-posts with zero supporting evidence in six months of existence really has any room to talk about embarrassing themselves.
Oh, look. 𝕰 𝖛 𝖎 𝖉 𝖊 𝖓 𝖈 𝖊 !
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
I suspect you'll be reading literally any of the 50+ studies linked on that page some time between the heat death of the universe and never, but maybe someone else will get something out of it if they didn't see the other link up above. I'd give you an A for effort, but frankly this is C+ trolling at best. Really, what's even the point without at least sprinkling in a little capslock or a few extraneous exclamation marks?
I see we've graduated from "𝘕𝘶𝘩-𝘶𝘩, 𝘚𝘩𝘶𝘵 𝘶𝘱!" to the "𝘓𝘢𝘭𝘢𝘭𝘢𝘭𝘢𝘭𝘢 𝘐 𝘤𝘢𝘯'𝘵 𝘩𝘦𝘦𝘦𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘶𝘶!" school of argumentation.
Fun fact: ignoring the science doesn't make you right. It does make you funny, though. Unless you're a sitting legislator... goodness, but I hope you're not one of 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦, are you?
Idk if you’re illiterate or being purposefully obtuse, but Hemant kindly wrote a whole post on the “facts” that Dawkins got wrong. Maybe you should do us all a favor and read it, take some time to process the things he said, check out some peer reviewed sources, talk to a few trans people, and get back to us. Or don’t. Honestly it’s probably better if you don’t.
So far, all of your "evidence" has been pulled out of your ass. Btw, hearing voices is not the same as actually having a conversation with a real person.
https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
You’ll have to filter a bit to find the legislation specifically targeting trans individuals rather than broadly targeting LGBTQ groups.
*𝑙𝑜𝑜𝑘𝑠 𝑑𝑜𝑤𝑛*
*𝑟𝑢𝑛𝑠 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑜 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑜𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝑟𝑜𝑜𝑚*
*𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑐𝑘𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑚𝑖𝑟𝑟𝑜𝑟*
Well, shit- this is all an illusion! I'm imagining myself! Somebody, anybody, help!
Oh, honey. You seem angry about something- did you actually think you were being original, posting something that nobody has ever been brave enough to say before? Your like have been trying to get rid of my like for the entirety of human history, chum- it's never worked before, and it won't work this time either.
But hey, don't let that stop you from regurgitating the same post another half a dozen times. I'm sure it'll be more convincing then!
"By Jove, I've got it- I shall opine with a vomitus of buzzwords and insults, and sign off with a jovial 'Cheers, Mate!' as though I've just dropped a microphone! They won't know what hit them!"
He refers to himself as a "free speech absolutist." You know. Like Stench...er, Musk. Why am I not surprised?
The only thing I'm surprised about is that he can use a thesaurus without his head exploding.
Thaaat's it. Just like we discussed. Say the same lines few more times; you'll get there for sure next time!
https://media.tenor.com/tZPs5HL1X9AAAAAC/pat-on-head-good-job.gif
Ooooookay. Most of the time, I don't post too much in this sort of thread, but I guess today I'm brave or something. Normally, I just read the article and wish Dawkins would shut up about it since it's pretty clear his opinion is more than a shade irrational. Today, I guess I'm up for more.
As a very boring cis woman, I don't understand despite best efforts why some folks are trans and what that really means to them. I'm not sure I'm equipped to understand, if I'm being truthful. That isn't important here. What's important (to me, anyway) is that I recognize that not everybody got the same luxury I did: born with the same body parts that match up to what I think I am. Life isn't fair, and it can be unfair in more ways than I have space to go over in one post and the whole gender match-up thing is just one of the ways it can be unfair. It seems to me that at some point, we as humans should at least make an effort to be better than how life treats us, because if we don't, it's just not going to happen.
In the long run, treating trans people as their preferred gender with both the right name and the right pronoun is just a tiny little start. Allowing people to change physically to their gender identity should be the rule rather than the exception, since so far as I can tell there's really no good reason to stop them. I may not understand, but I firmly believe in compassion for the human condition in all its iterations, and I see no reason to stop that just because someone's gender identity causes some individuals not directly involved to be uncomfortable.
Valuing people as people should be the default, not a conditional offer.
Um, what?
As a woman, I don't know what 'invasion of single sex spaces' you're talking about. Also, I'm not familiar with any situations where anyone lost a prize or opportunity to a trans person where the prize was intended for a specific gender. I would note that there have been many, many, many occasions when a female has had an award, prize, or other recognition taken by a male counterpart, however.
At this point, you should be aware that your response above comes off to me as patronizing and superior rather than any kind of attempt at being helpful. I honestly believe I am doing the right thing to the best of my ability on the issue, and your post in no way gives my any reason to change that position; if you're looking to win people over this is not going to help your cause. It may be helpful to post examples of the situations you're characterizing when you make these points in the future. Good luck.
Ah, yes the old "LGBT people are sexual predators" trope.
In the real world, of course, trans people are vastly more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.
Which is why trans women belong in women's only spaces. Go away, Dawkins defending TERF troll.
Because they are women. Kind of obvious, really.
Dawkins reminds me a great deal of the "happy", "shiny" bigots of Evangelical land.
You know, the ones who say, "Oh, we accept anyone in our churches," and then spends all of their time talking about how homosexuality is a sin and voting for reich-wing bigot politicians. But they sure do "love" their gay neighbors, they say.
They love to kick them out. That should count for something right ?
For our newcomers, this is spar... I mean sarcasm.
PS : I hate using DM's phone. I can't wait to have mine with English keyboard and settings.
Nearly all I learned about biology at school was between 30 and 25 years ago but I know this. Coupling 2 differents DNA is a roll of dices, sometimes you end up with 3 chromosomes instead of 2, sometimes you are born blind or albinos.
Who is dawkins to define who is a woman or not. I am a cis woman who can grow a beard, does that mean I am not a woman for someone who doesn't believe or understand hormones imbalance ? You just have to replace trans people by POC and remember Emmett Till, Breonna Taylor or Trayvon Martin. Transphobia kills.
Joan if you read this, you are more a sister for me than marine le pen or jk rowling.
"a child who said she went to a school where being gay or trans was seen as “cool,” and that made her question being heterosexual."
So it sounds like Dawkins, like this no doubt not-imaginary child, doesn't understand the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. And we're supposed to respect his opinion on this subject? Yeah, sure.
And as for sports competition, I can't help wondering why the transphobes never mention the well-known instances where trans athletes have LOST to cis athletes. Remember the controversy a few months back about trans swimmer Lia Thomas? The phobes were screaming their heads off that she had such an unfair advantage, she was sure to win. Then...she lost. And from the phobes we heard nothing but crickets. And a few months ago in the UK a trans soccer ("football") team played in a high profile match against a--cis team...and LOST. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/04/all-trans-soccer-team-radiates-joy-in-history-making-match/ But no, no, no, trans athletes have such a hideous advantage that they will ALWAYS win over those poor, feeble cis jocks.. Un-huh.
Dawkins has a lot of damn nerve to be still presenting himself as a champion of reason when he obviously can't deal with clear, simple facts.
The reality check in the sports debate should be that it's not just one trans athlete who has lost against the same competitors they were vilified for winning against on another occasion- it's literally all of them. Every. Single. One. Every last case that has blown up in the news, that's what you find when you scratch the surface and actually look at their record.
Besides which...
Are there valid concerns about some prospective athletes with some physical advantages? Sure. 𝘉𝘶𝘵 𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘴 𝘸𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘥𝘥𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘥𝘦𝘤𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘨𝘰. The same concerns have always existed about cis athletes who are physically exceptional in one way or another compared to the rest of their field, to a degree that would threaten the fairness of the competition. Every major athletic organization reviews their member athletes for anomalous performances. Every major athletic organization has mechanisms by which to remove or restrict athletes whose performances are suspect in some way. They have had these things for way, way longer than this issue has been in the public eye. Some of the standards and guidelines might need to be updated in some athletic conferences, but that happens regularly anyway.
There's just nothing here worthy of the international shitstorm that's been raging over it.
So, Katie Ledecky just surpassed Michael Phelps in number of gold medals in national championships. She’s known for breaking men’s spirits in practice because she wipes the floor with these guys and isn’t even aware they’re trying to compete with her. She is absolutely a cis woman, but because she’s performing better than a man or several men, they are bitching that she must be trans. There’s the little girl with a short haircut attacked at a track meet by some right wing paranoid grandpa thinking she was a boy and somehow it’s the end of the world a child compete in a race they don’t look like they belong in. They do this to every woman in almost all area, not just sports, any woman who has notoriety gets some fucking asshole on the internet nowadays claiming her Adam’s Apple is too big, her back is too straight, her arms too bulky, or her face too homely to be a real woman. And they think that the folks supporting transgender people are confused about what a woman is.
Transgender athletes are rare, they are not the monsters they’re portrayed as, and they are not taking away women’s sports. What they are are excuses for bigots to be awful to other human beings because those awful human beings vilified them. “If a trans woman wants to swim and she beats my precious little girl then the trans woman must be a bad person, therefore I can abuse the trans woman and the trans community. And if my little girl can’t win against this cis woman, well, then she must be trans because my little precious baby deserves to win even if she loses.”
Yup- it's a wedge. Before wingnuts hit on using trans athletes as a wedge, they had nothing but contempt for women's sports. Now they care very deeply about fairness in the very competitions which yesterday they were insisting didn't even merit paying attention to. If they can drive in this wedge, then it makes room for the next one, and the next. If they can ban trans women in sports (and bathrooms, and anywhere else) then they can make it acceptable to harass non-conforming cis women, physically-gifted cis women... and eventually, women just don't get to play sports, because they've all been poked, prodded, and abused off the field for not being "womanly" enough- read that: meek, compliant, and subordinate to their "betters."
The bigots' endgame is control, as it always is and always has been.
The IOC ruled to allow out transgender athletes to compete in the Olympics in 2004. The first out transgender athletes to actually qualify did so for the Summer 2020 games, which were held in 2021 instead because of the pandemic. More than 70,000 athletes had competed in the Olympics, both Winter and Summer games, since 2004 at that point. Trans people account for between 0.6%-1% of the population, but 2 out of 70,000 is less than 0.00005%- demonstrating a massive 𝘶𝘯𝘥𝘦𝘳representation of trans athletes in not just women's sports but sports in general, rather than the 𝘰𝘷𝘦𝘳representation transphobes like yourself keep scaremongering about.
One of those two whole athletes, out of more than 70,000, was a trans woman from New Zealand who had undergone medical transition. She competed in weightlifting. She did not win any medals. The other was an AFAB nonbinary athlete, who had received no medical transition care, competing on the Canadian Women's Soccer team, which did take home gold... but doesn't add anything substantive to the argument, since said athlete had the same body type and chemistry as every other athlete on the field.
The scenario you propose is ludicrous- if it were going to happen, it already would have in the nearly two decades it has been possible for trans women to qualify for women's Olympic events. It has not. Your concern is a nothingburger.
Every accusation is a confession.
You didn’t even read my comment. You don’t warrant a reply, I can see you are a Nazi sympathizer at best.
Leave people alone.
If Val, you and me were to compete in running, I want Val and you to cut your toes. It's an unfair advantage 😁
Oh, you're probably safe. The longest event I ever run is the 20ft dash to the loo after putting too much hot sauce on my eggs.
Lucky. Here it's 30ft to the loo. : )
4'9" and a ruined ankle thanks to Aria. Let see which one of us hobble faster :)
There's even the story of the olympian who identified as female, presented as female, physically had the genitalia of a female, was raised as a female, competed as a female but when testing became widespread was disqualified because of high testosterone. After years of appeals it was found she has sterile, diminutive testes in her abdomen that threw off the tests. She finally was reinstated and apologized to. I can't find the article but this was in the 70's or 80's.
OT
Paul Reubens, better known as Pee-wee Herman, has died at age 70.
Cancer sucks.
Thanks god. /s
YHVH could've removed Mel Gibson or Jim Caviezel from the gameboard. Nope. He went after Reubens.
Meka leka hi
Meka heiny ho
Pee Wee is no mo'
He was also the superhero The Spleen in "Mystery Men" as well as the vampire Amilyn in the film version of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and so much more.
I love "Mystery Men". Especially Janeane Garofalo's Baby Bowler arguing with her father. "OK, now I'm going back to graduate school. That was the agreement."
A superhero movie that had fun with the genre instead of making fun of it.
Eddie Izzard's in it, too. 🙂
There's a lot of good people in it.
So much talent in that movie. I don't much care for Tom Waits as a singer but I liked him as an actor.
Mystery Men rocks. We watch it regularly and the kids even stick around to watch it, which is not common anymore in our house. The Spleen was fantastic.
Great movie. Smartly written, directed and acted. It's a shame it didn't come out during the rise of Marvel films. It would've been a smash hit.
Hollywood can always reboot it.
I don't know if they could catch lightning in a bottle twice with MM.
He was hilarious in Buffy!
I loved when he was stabbed with the ruler. Hilarious!
I can imitate his Spleen voice. 😃
[quietly] I remember the Alamo.
"Aren't we gonna visit the basement?"
"There's no basement at the Alamo."
Where do they traffic kids from?
Why, NASA traffics them to Mars. Didn't you hear? :S
He was also in Mathilda, wasn't he? The non-musical with Danny DeVito?
He was. He played FBI Agent Bob. He also did a couple of Cheech&Chong movies and was the voice of the spaceship in "Flight of the Navigator."
And of course, he was the Penguin's father in "Batman Returns." Playing the Penguin? Danny DeVito. :)
I knew he looked famously familiar, couldn't place him until now.
He was also the father of Oswald Cobblepott in the series 𝘎𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘮.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_(TV_series)
I don't remember the character, but he was in "Pushing Daisies," another series that ended too soon.
I received this as a reply to a post over at today's 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘋𝘦𝘷𝘪𝘭'𝘴 𝘗𝘢𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘦𝘴.
"The paradox of tolerance disappears when you stop seeing tolerance as a moral absolute and instead as a peace treaty. The protections of a peace treaty only extends to those abiding by its terms."
𝐓𝐨𝐥𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐢𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐚 𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐚𝐥 𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭
"Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats. It means that we accept that people may be different from us, in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms. It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact."
https://medium.com/extra-extra/tolerance-is-not-a-moral-precept-1af7007d6376
https://thedevilspanties.com/archives/15655
I suspect Karl Popper would agree.
Mouse-over text: "My family has been squatters on American soil for two hundred years but my kids are brown, so now I've gotta swing my southern stick at some pickup trucks."
I like that one. It's simple, and it fits.
Dawkins may be a good resource for evolutionary biology, but sex determination and gender identity are definitely outside of his wheelhouse. He has allowed his prejudice to prevent him from updating his knowledge of that aspect of biology for half a century. Using the authority of his PhD to push his outdated notions makes him a garbage human.
I have. Biological sex in humans is a bimodal, not binary. Gender identity is a societal construct, and NOT the same as biological sex. It is ALSO bimodal and not binary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity#:~:text=Article%20Talk,with%20the%20individual's%20gender%20identity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
You two need to get a room.
Sock puppet talking to itself?
Oh honey, your assurances are worth less than a wet fart in a dysentery ward.
To borrow a phrase: "What we got here ... is a failure to empathize." I'm not just talking about Dawkins here, though he and Rowling and too many others fall under that heading. I'm talking about ANYONE whose powers of perception haven't the ability to understand that gender is easily at least as much about MINDSET as it is about physiology. I'm not 100% certain why I get it, though a dear friend of mine helped when she related the story of her husband's bout with gender dysphoria, the transition, and the remarkable change in attitude, self-image, practically EVERY personality marker once she fully realized her true self.
Don't ask me WHY I get that, but I do. Wish others did. 😔
I will never understand why people say things like this and think they're actually being clever and scathing. "It's all in your mind"- well... 𝘥𝘶𝘩. Your whole sense of self is in your mind, dear. 'Tis how those squishy "brain" things work- you might've read about them in 𝘣𝘪𝘰𝘭𝘰𝘨𝘺 class.
Yes, you are. You will be banned before Joan is.
No, you just attack people for merely existing.
Joe King, Joan Of Dork, and NOGODZ have already addressed your points, and yet you mysteriously are unable to respond to them or even acknowledge them. Who is the one crying here?
And normal people are already seeing what teeny tiny little worldviews you have.
I am liking Richard Dawkins less and less every day. Though he has been good in fighting the religious non-sense, I think in this it could be an unexpressed bigotry at play here while pretending to be under the umbrella of science. Notice his remarks are that of sex and not gender.
I dunno, the bigotry seemed pretty 𝘦𝘹𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘦𝘥 to me.
Ah, the infallible and incontrovertible "𝘕𝘶𝘩-𝘶𝘩! 𝘚𝘩𝘶𝘵 𝘶𝘱!" school of argumentation- truly, dear friends, we are in the presence of an intellectual giant.
That's the second time you said "shut up."
Be quiet = Shut up
Just this morning, I was reading a Slate profile of RFK Jr. A man who started off with a healthy skepticism about corporate malfeasance and regulatory capture, who came to believe that big pharma is pushing harmful vaccines and 5G is a plot to control our minds.
In my youth, I read pretty much everything Dawkins had to say and it had a role in shaping my world view (or at least providing scientific support to Bertrand Russell's more philosophical approach). Now he has come to this.
I hope this kind of irrational paranoia doesn't take over my brain as a I get older (I'm 60 now) but if it does I hope someone loves me enough to put me out of my misery.
You'll be alright. Recognizing the need to maintain healthy skepticism while watching out for the rabbit holes of conspiracy theory bullshit will keep you out of trouble.
My mother is past 70, has never studied biology or evolution and she understand who trans people are and how they suffer.
Well, I'm 78 and it hasn't taken me over, so hang in there!! If anything, I've become more liberal as I age, though I don't think a modicum of paranoia about MAGAt types is misplaced.
Y'know, I'm rather shocked that "Big Pharma!" took so long to make an appearance. Y'all are slipping.
We're gonna hear some revelations about chemtrails next.
"You won't BELIEVE number six!"
$400 BILLION?
"Joyce has previously said transgender people who have transitioned are 'damaged' and 'a huge problem to a sane world.'"
Certain people, not so long ago, said similar things about people openly identifying as homosexual. Many still do! And once upon a time, women who didn't want to marry or have children were thought to be mentally ill and were medicated or institutionalized so they could be "fixed". These are the same old, crusty bigots who, in another time, would also be arguing that black people were biologically closer to apes than white people.
This just seems like the latest iteration of a cyclical phenomenon that is perpetuated by the same type of people throughout history in response to any form of social progress. It's always those who benefit most from the status quo who push back the hardest and whose narcissism fuels their need for a scapegoat to distract from their own insecurities and to fulfill their need to maintain power and control over others. And, predictably, they resort to playing the victim when they get called out for their intolerance and fallacious arguments. It's the same old script, just a different chapter, along with another round of unnecessary suffering for those who are currently being marginalized.
But just as homosexuality, black equality, and women's equality became more normalized, so too will the existence of trans identities. It's inevitable and they can either learn to accept it or cling to their ignorance and bigotry and accept that history will remember them poorly.
Yeah, we've got one here who is doubling down HARD.
...and now she's name-dropping actual, honest-to-fucking-goodness Nazi sympathizers. I do believe we have Troll Bingo.
*edit- I was wrong. She found the like button and started upvoting herself. 𝘕𝘰𝘸 we have Troll Bingo.
Maybe it's Dickie using a nym.
PS : JOAN, J'TE KIFFE A MORT MA DONZELLE !!!
There was one banned not so long ago who seemed able to spout their venom both in English and French, I think they made an unwelcome back.
Boreal raméne tes miches steup 😁
That might have been on my days off.
It's not like we lack of them every time Hemant denounce an atheist bigot.
Oh great, this new one has been drinking from the Sinfest sippy cup.
Homophobia and transphobia are treatable illnesses. Please consult with a licensed mental health care professional for more information and help. You don't have to suffer.
Get your transphobia treated.
A lot of garbage... that's all you managed.
It's probably your coproencephaly.
Helen Joyce, everyone:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Helen_Joyce
She seems nice. *rolls eyes*
Good thing you provided a link to such a nice unbiased article about her. * rolls eyes*
RationalWiki is snarky at times but they always get their facts straight and provide their extensive sources (over a hundred, in this case).
Documenting what she's said and done is "bias?" Did you somehow miss the fact that they led off with a direct quote from her on eliminating transgenders? Selective blindness? Go ahead, then. Disprove that vicious pack of facts.
This article is 10 days old and transphobes are still swarming on it? Were they waiting for everyone to leave so there would be less pushback? Move on, already.
Yes, a partial quote taken out of context. If the info gathered there is all you know about her then you know too little to make a reasonable judgement about her and her intentions. That you would believe that Dawkins “deplores trans people” then you are clearly clueless. Disagree with him, criticize his statements, challenge his points if you feel you should but to imagine that he actually harbors ill will toward anyone is foolishness.
I deleted my original reply because I was unsatisfied with it.
"Yes, it's a partial quote taken out of context." How much of the quote would it have taken to convince you? I get the feeling nothing would have been good enough for you. And thanks for using that old religious chestnut "You're taking it out of context!" when it is clearly not out of context. It's her own words.
"That you would believe Dawkins "deplore trans people" then you are clearly clueless."
Where did I say that in my post about Joyce? Who was talking about Dawkins? I was talking about Joyce. The entry about Joyce makes no mention of Dawkins. You went right off Joyce and into Dawkins, claws out. You say to criticize him, then you call me clueless by asserting I said something I did not say; that you made up. Oh, and "That you would believe that Dawkins deplores trans people and "...but to imagine that he actually harbors ill will toward anyone" (again, something I did not say in my post about Joyce) are both "Argument from Incredulity," a logical fallacy.
In the end, you are simply going to ignore everything in this posted entry that you don't personally like and because it illustrates what an ignorant, hateful person Joyce is. That you support her seemingly-endless, clueless, foolish phobias speaks volumes about you.
Oh, just found it a little further down. This is what you posted that I was referring to about you saying, you know, that Dawkins deplores trans people. Yep, you said that. “ You deplore trans people, Dicky. Unfortunately for you, transgenderism doesn't stop being true because you deplore it.”
You should try harder to have conversations with reasonable people.
You should take your own advice.