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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"But is there a way to connect the dots between support of Christian Nationalism and direct violence?"

Yep, it's called European history.

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oraxx's avatar

+++ The men who wrote the U.S. Constitution knew that history very well and wanted no part of it in their new country. Leaving religion out of government was not an accidental omission.

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Straw's avatar

And still the crazyvile people pretend the separation is not even there.

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oraxx's avatar

Section III, Article VI of the Constitution bans religious tests for holding public office in the United States. That sure sounds like church-state separation to me, and it pre-dates the Bill of Rights. It speaks directly to how the founders felt about the issue.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

But don't some states enacted a religious test in their Constitution ?

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oraxx's avatar

They've tried, but the U.S. Constitution trumps state law.

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Sko Hayes's avatar

They used to, I think all the state constitutions have been revised by now.

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cdbunch's avatar

No. Texas still has a provision in its state constitution that you must profess belief in a creator god. Doesn't say which one. I doubt it's the only one. Changing a state constitution is hard in most states. Too often the legislature isn't going to make the symbolic gesture to remove a dead clause. (Especially when they don't want it dead)

It's non-enforceable under current SCOTUS precedent.

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Maltnothops's avatar

Maryland's constitution still says you can't serve on a jury. testify in court, or hold elective office if you don't profess belief in God.

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Joe King's avatar

It spilled over into American history. The Founders thought they exorcised that particular demon, but religion is one hell of a drug.

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Jedi Senshi's avatar

The Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition (which nobody expects) to name a few violent Christian actions.

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AlbertCamus's avatar

Some came to the colonies to escape it; others came to re-establish it.

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XJC's avatar
Sep 10Edited

Christianity's Greatest Hits, Volume 87.

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SPW's avatar

Slavery-because it’s in the bible 🤬.

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Julie Duggan's avatar

I would also add slavery in the US. While that was not started due to any particular religious agenda - they certainly used the worst parts of the bible to justify and perpetuate it: curse of Ham's and the mark of Cain for their religious justifications in continuing slavery and vilifying people of color.

And we could add the treatment of Native Americans as well - with the Christians calling them heathens and forcing them to convert, assimilate and stealing native children from their parents.

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Holytape's avatar

The history of the indigenous people: What I mean nothing to you? There is enough Christian nationalism and violence to be shared between all of us histories.

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Joe King's avatar

Don't forget about what they did to sub Saharan Africa when they decided the Bible meant that extra melanin required extra servility. How many violent Christian dictators are there now?

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SPW's avatar

Genocide.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

Reichwing/Talibangelical nationalism is a dangerous trend because so many on the political right have bought into much of it. I think Cruz is a sociopath who is willing to say anything he thinks his base wants him to say. But the problem is really his base (and the greater reichwing base). They have learned to believe preposterous things without a shred of proof in their churches their whole lives. Now along comes all manner of 'news' and social media designed for their consumption. Is it any wonder that they are radicalized? Even with a Democratic victory on November 5th, this fight is going to have to be fought over and over...

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oraxx's avatar

Christians, acting in the name of Christianity, have spilled a river of blood. There isn't a shred of evidence to support the claim Christianity makes people better. Some of the most mean-spirited, judgmental and intolerant people I have ever known never missed church. Prominent figures in the religious right are some of the most compelling arguments for why religion should never have a place in our secular government. The religious right is fighting a rear-guard action in an effort to accomplish through government and the courts what they have failed to achieve from their pulpits. The idea any religion could be imposed on a country as large and diverse as the United States, with a happy ending, is as dangerous as thinking gets.

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Matri's avatar

Not river.

Oceans.

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

No shit. Europe already went through this. Catholics murdering Protestants. Protestants murdering Catholics. Protestants murdering other Protestants.

And all of them committed the worst crimes against humanity thinking that they had the approval and backing of God.

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Straw's avatar

You forgot the killing of jews, roma, disabled and nonstraight people and more.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

AFAIK, the killing of Romas and disabled people wasn't really a thing before hitler. While the killing of Jews has two origins, common people killed them for superstitious reasons, rich people for money reasons, what better way to get rid of a debt than killing the creditors ?

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Straw's avatar

But so many people just let it happen. And some don't believe it happened at all.

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cdbunch's avatar

Maybe someone should remind the president of Wells Fargo of that.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

J'ai pas la reference.

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cdbunch's avatar

Wells Fargo is a big bank in the U.S. that has recently had a large number of scandals. They are also the company that didn't notice a dead woman for 4 days.

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xenubarb's avatar

And now WF is using that as a reason why RTO is such a good thing. See, if people weren't working from home, someone would have noticed her sooner. Despicable company, Wells Fargo. Not even the ORIGINAL WF, they just took the name and used stagecoach imagery so people would assume. I wouldn't trust them with my recycle bin, let alone my money!

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Moon Cat's avatar

Romas have been killed and persecuted pretty much regularly, historically by all governing bodies as they are too transitory to control. Can't tax them, can't census them, can't exploit them, and they do what they want and go where they want. Similar to many tribes of Native Americans and Russian/Asiatic nomadic tribes. All were pinned down or exterminated. Didn't want a example of Freedom in sight of regular people that they are trying to control.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

People committing horrific acts upon others in the name of imaginary beings and realms.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair may very well have nailed it in four words: "Religion is induced insanity."

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Joe King's avatar

“I'll tell you what you did with Atheists for about 1500 years. You outlawed them from the universities or any teaching careers, besmirched their reputations, banned or burned their books or their writings of any kind, drove them into exile, humiliated them, seized their properties, arrested them for blasphemy. You dehumanised them with beatings and exquisite torture, gouged out their eyes, slit their tongues, stretched, crushed, or broke their limbs, tore off their breasts if they were women, crushed their scrotums if they were men, imprisoned them, stabbed them, disembowelled them, hanged them, burnt them alive.

And you have nerve enough to complain to me that I laugh at you." -- Madalyn Murray O'Hair

The Nat-Cs want to do the former because we do the latter.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

I've posted this quote by her many a time. It needs constant reiteration.

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Dianne Marie Leonard's avatar

She was right. The Xtian reign of terror (against *any* non-Xtians) didn't begin in the 16th or 17th or 18th centuries. It goes back to the declining days of the Roman Empire. It was a feature of Christianity then, just as it's a feature now. To cite just one infamous example, who killed Hypatia of Alexandria?

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

She was an uppity woman who asked for it by teaching to men s/

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Dianne Marie Leonard's avatar

Because of course she was. (That's what's called post hoc justfication. She was apparently also politically influential, and outspokenly Not A Christian, which seem to have been the real reasons.) Of course, any of that "justified" what the Xtian terrorists did to her and many others. Yeah, I use the term "terrorist" in regards to Christianity and will continue to do so. They don't even try to live it down.

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Straw's avatar

Just pointing out that your last word, "latter", is what we call "laughter" in Norwegian.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

"Induced," indeed. Also learned, indoctrinated, intimidated, coerced ... That's a few more.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"Religion is collective insanity." -- Mikhail Bakhunin

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S. Arch's avatar

Two points:

(1) Christian nationalist politicians will probably never hear about this study.

(2) Even if Christian nationalist politicians do hear about this study, they won't care. In fact, they will probably be glad to hear that their rhetoric leads to violence against religious minorities, because the PERSECUTION/EXTERMINATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS IS THEIR GOAL.

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Alverant's avatar

And about 20 years ago the SCOTUS ruled that cops don't have to respond to crimes. That means if they agree with the attackers, they can stand by and watch with a big smile on their faces as their fellow Christians attack people in the name of God. Sure, there may be a public outcry but that's what qualified immunity is for.

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OwossoHarpist's avatar

Just like in Uvalde, Texas.

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Psittacus Ebrius's avatar

And the despicable photo of trump with his stupid grin and thumbs up gesture. At least Melania struck a sympathetic pose while holding a small child whose parents were killed in the massacre. As usual, trump thought it was all about him.

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cdbunch's avatar

Next time there's a shooting in Uvalde, don't bother calling the police. Call the fire department. Those lunatics run *into burning buildings* to save lives.

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Crowscage's avatar

And that is exactly what they will do the moment their reign of terror kicks off.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

More likely, they'll join in on the fun.

♫♪"𝘚𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘬 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘤𝘦𝘴..."♫♪

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Which is not in the Constitution.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

𝑅𝑒𝑠𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑠𝑎𝑦 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑁𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑠𝑚 𝑓𝑢𝑒𝑙𝑠 𝑣𝑖𝑜𝑙𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒 𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑠𝑡 𝑛𝑜𝑛-𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑠.

And water is wet. Man, how many times do we as non-Christians need to point out the dangers associated with Christian Nationalism before the rest of the bozos out there cop a clue? This crap has been going on since BEFORE Charlottesville, and it continues to this day. Let's also not mention that the Nat-Cs have been getting 𝑠𝑜𝑡𝑡𝑜 𝑣𝑜𝑐𝑒 support from Republicans for roughly as long.

So let's get the word out. Christian Nationalism isn't Christian, it isn't in the national interest, and it sure as hell isn't patriotic!

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Sko Hayes's avatar

Let's just call them modern day Crusaders.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Actually, let's call them what they are: insurrectionists and traitors.

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Joe King's avatar

Po tay to, po tah to...

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cdbunch's avatar

Potatoe

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cdbunch's avatar

From a VP who got his ass handed to him by a fictional character.

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Lynn Veit's avatar

Mr. Potato-e Head?

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Lynn Veit's avatar

Quayle-O-Phonics.

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Psittacus Ebrius's avatar

Remember when we opined that the Moral Majority was neither? Well ...

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cdbunch's avatar

Voters who are not Christian Nationalists don't care. It doesn't impact them, not yet. If the deaths of children can't sway them to vote for gun regulation, they aren't going to care about the deaths of a few Muslims or LGBT people.

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Joe King's avatar

When it does impact them due to their belonging to the "wrong" denomination, it will be too late.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

It'll affect them within their own denomination, even if they're lucky enough for their denomination to be the right one; most of them will be Jesusing the wrong way for their leaders' liking.

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cdbunch's avatar

Or have the crazy idea they have the right to decide if they have sex with the leader.

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

OT: I saw a headline that said "How to Watch Tonight's Debate." My first thought was inebriated.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

My thought was "don't."

I'll catch up on it with the comedians tomorrow.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I knew it ! You are not an Atheist, you are a Ninkasi worshipper 😁

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Go MST3K every time Trump opens his upper sphincter?

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I hope you have a good hospital nearby.

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

Sober, reading a good book, listening to some classical music.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Not classical.but I have a fondness for https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIknTBwny4&list=PL474362AB034B2C6A&pp=iAQB8AUB

I sincerely thank my nephew for giving me the chance to see them live once 🤣

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Rare and beautiful! I think Madrigals and related works may be considered "classical music," even if they predate the Baroque period.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I don't know if it can still be bought or even be found in the US but I recommend Cantigas et romances from l'ensemble Wayal, it's various late Middle Age songs from around the Mediterranean Sea.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

The one record in my collection that may slightly relate is "Tanzmusik der Praetorius Zeit." Fun stuff!

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

I think it was early undergrad, I stopped in a music store looking for something. I saw they had a bin with $0.99 classical CD's, so I went through and grabbed a handful, just to try something different. This album was one of them.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I have both the vinyl and the CD. Not one bad cut!

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Straw's avatar

I can't remember dad's baby brother ever not being inebriated. He died some 13-16 ya. I don't remember anymore.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

I'll just wait for the lowlights from FC, MTN, Dollemore, et al.

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painedumonde's avatar

Exactement !

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Die Anyway's avatar

I will probably watch but first I need to run over to Publix for a fresh box of wine.

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Andra Watkins's avatar

Commenting to add that I grew up in a Christian Nationalist church and school. As early as elementary school, the pastor preached that we might have to someday take up arms and kill our fellow Americans to defend our faith. People who choose to listen to violent messages for 5 decades are highly radicalized. They don’t merely respond “yes” to violence in polls. Many will actually commit it if given the proper nudge.

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xenubarb's avatar

I remember Sunday school, when they tried to suggest christian persecution could happen if we weren't all good little soldiers for Jebus. They kept dragging up the dubious "facts" about Romans torturing christians until they accepted Zeus & Co. And I thought, "Heck, I'd just lie and say I'd accepted Poseidon into my life." I thought the christians who'd rather be tortured and die were... well, kinda stupid.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

I'm sure they left out all of the... *𝘤𝘩𝘦𝘤𝘬𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘴* entire fucking civilizations of people Christians have tortured until they accepted Jesus. Because, y'know, it's okay if it's 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 deity people are being tortured and murdered in the name of!

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Just to be sure. The use of Zeus and Poseidon is intentional ?

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xenubarb's avatar

Well, yeah. Only I shoulda said "Jupiter and Neptune," because when in Rome...

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Holytape's avatar

Just because chiristian nationals think that the other groups of people are working for the literal embodiment of evil, and that they must stop these evil people by any means necessary, and that they will be forgiven and blessed in the afterlife, doesn't necessarily mean that it supports violence against people. After all, if they are working for Satan, are they even people?

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Die Anyway's avatar

> "...if they are working for Satan, are they even people?"

NO! No they are not. Once they are filled with demons they are like cockroaches. Vile and pestilential. We may pray for their eternal soul but we can kill them with no compunction whatsoever. Squash 'em like a bug. Only men filled with Jesus shall live.

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Dianne Marie Leonard's avatar

Emphasis on "men" here.

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Elena Christian's avatar

Feature, not bug.

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Straw's avatar

You are correct about that.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Did NatCs somehow forget that we fought a revolution to escape being ruled by a Christian Empire and a king who thought it was God's Will that he rule us from 3,000 miles away?

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Kay-El's avatar

I was thinking similar. Apparently the only thing they remember from history class is in 1776 the US fight a war with Britain, but the why is forgotten.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

The schmuck they've chosen as their leader believes that the Continental Army fought battles over 𝘢𝘪𝘳𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘴, so... advanced concepts like historical context might be just a 𝘭𝘪𝘵𝘵𝘭𝘦 bit beyond them.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

This despite the fact that the Declaration of Independence made it very clear why we were severing ties with the British Empire and George III.

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cdbunch's avatar

How many have read more than the first paragraph of the DoI or the Constitution. Most of what my generation knows of the U.S. government came from 'Schoolhouse Rock'

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Kay-El's avatar

Piddly facts which just get in the way of all that blood lust.

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

The abrahamic religious superstitions are all about bloodshed and conquest. No wonder the Romans pushed kkkatlikism.

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cdbunch's avatar

So did most of America.

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Straw's avatar

The country is USA, and it is located on a continent called North America. As long as the rest of American countries are called by name, USA or United States of America should as well.

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cdbunch's avatar

It’s a bad habit picked up from the culture. I usually manage to curb it, but it’s one of those days.

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Straw's avatar

You are not alone. I do it once in a while myself too, not so often as before.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Yes, the United States of 𝑨𝒎𝒆𝒓𝒊𝒄𝒂. America is not a part of the name of any other country in this hemisphere.

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cdbunch's avatar

Extant country. The CSA did in fact have America in the name :)

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

You, you . . . PEDANT!

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Elia's avatar

Do people think the Founding Fathers talked about separation of church and state as a joke? They were dead serious. They saw what happened in Europe when Christians had all the power.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

This is why we need to be teaching civics and American History, particularly of the 18th century. Those lessons have been LOST or ignored for entirely too long, and I wonder how many kids these days simply DO NOT KNOW.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

As well as 16th century religious wars, they were others before but these ones were the worst.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Far too many of these fuckbuckets still think the 𝘊𝘳𝘶𝘴𝘢𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴 were the good guys.

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Joe King's avatar

All this study really shows is that the violence against religious minorities when one religion holds the reins of power is ongoing, and not a relic of history. The history of Islam's spread across the middle east is one of violent conquest. The history of Christianity's spread across Europe and the Americas is one of violent conquest. "Gentle Jesus" my ass. The Founding Fathers noticed this two and a half centuries ago. Why can't people see this today?

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Straw's avatar

Religion is about indoctrination. I think that's the answer you are looking for.

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Julie Duggan's avatar

" I see stupid people".

That's my alternate version of "I see dead people" from Sixth Sense - this country is full of stupid people.

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