The sense of Christian privilege and entitlement runs deep in this country, especially in the public schools paid for with everyone's tax dollars. The need to indoctrinate children before they've reached the age of reason is a tacit admission of just how weak the Christian message actually is. Why is it ever okay to present things to children as facts, most educated adults would reject out of hand? We need to keep chipping away at that sense of entitlement until it's gone.
Of course it's not okay to present nonproven things as fact. But how do you think they'll be able to recruit new believers if they don't catch them before critical thinking is introduced?
In Christianese, the 4-14 Window describes an evangelism concept related to children. If Christians can’t indoctrinate a child between the ages of 4 and 14, then chances are good they’ll never be able to turn that person into a lifelong Christian in adulthood.
See, before four years old a child can’t really understand the threats, misinformation, gaslighting, compartmentalization, and promises that go into indoctrination. After 14, a child has likely already learned too much about reality and healthy boundaries and relationships to accept that indoctrination.
So yes, the 4-14 Window operates a bit like the window of socialization for kittens, except in reverse: Miss the window for kittens, and they’ll always have trouble speaking People. Miss the indoctrination window for children, and Christianity’s beliefs and claims will sound ridiculous, weird, and manipulative to them.
I don't think you're wrong here, but well....quite frankly, I don't trust Christian groups to do their own research anymore.
I'll admit anytime anyone wants to know that I got lucky. My family decided to move the day after I graduated from high school, and by doing so literally moved me out of the SBC bubble I'd been living in back in Alabama. That move is likely the single most important cause of my current non-belief; it allowed me to get out from under their religious thumb long enough to get out of the Christian indoctrination they had pushed onto me. If we hadn't moved, there's a very good chance I'd have never managed to get out.
So while I'd agree that those numbers and that research is both important and significant, I'm not sure it's as accurate as it should be. I know we have so many tales on how, when, and why people left religion here on this board, and I'm just not convinced that the numbers the Barna Research Group and International Bible Society gives are correct. Christianity as practiced in the US of A tends to run on fear, and keeping the average member terrified for the future is a good way of keeping them in line; we've heard the 'Think of the CHILDREN!!!11!!!' rallying cry so often it's become background noise in many cases. I also think Capt. Cassidy has some great criticisms late in the article.
Thanks for the great info otherwise, though. Getting a good look at where some of the BS came from is really helpful.
Years ago my wife and I moved to Ft. Lauderdale and our kids grew up there. I was intrigued to see that the schools closed on major Jewish holidays and the background for those holidays was included in class material. I thought it was fine that my kids were becoming multicultural but I wondered how any fundamentalist Christians moving to the area might have felt... "Oh my God Maybelle, the Jews run these schools and are forcing our kids to participate in Jewish rituals. We're all gonna go to Hell now!"
My kid recently put two and two together and figured out that all those cultural holidays the school was putting on the calendar to be more equitable in respecting different cultures and faiths was the reason he used to go back to school after Labor day, but now goes back to school before it. He got a bit more 'conservative' about the notion of fitting them all in after that. Not bigoted against any of them, just realizing that the school system has a Tragedy Of The Commons type problem with holidays, and one equality-honoring way to fix the tragedy of the commons is to not let anyone's sheep graze on it.
But that's off topic. AFAIK there was never any problem here of too many after school clubs and not enough space for them. This was all about censoring content.
That's actually a good thing for many students. A two month interruption in studies sets some children back. The first month back ends up being a review of last years materials to get them back on track. That's one less month to learn new things. But kids do need time off to thrive. Some educators want to add in a few more week long vacations and more three day weekends instead of summer vacations. But a lot of school districts don't want it because it may mean more teacher burnout and the expense of a/c.
There’s also the building maintenance to consider. Summer is a time where the staff update and repair, students are really hard on schools. This was something I did reports on while I was getting my teaching degree. There are a lot of reasons full year education isn’t implemented and one is that the students don’t actually get enough benefits from it to compensate for the wear on the building and faculty. There are some gains, but they’ve found other ways to make the same gains while keeping summer vacation.
It’s a good thought, but not doing it is very reasonable as well.
School schedule is like a lot of school things; you're trying to find a one-size-fits-district solution for a bunch of widely varying individual kids. But I didn't intend to start a debate about the pros and cons of 9- or 10-month vs. 12 month schedules. Was just responding to Die Anyway's thought on Jewish holidays. He was cynically expecting a paranoid response from his neighbors, and from what I gather was pleasantly surprised he didn't get it. I was expecting a "all holidays are great" response from my tween and was pleasantly surprised when he figured out they aren't free, and started to think through cost vs benefit.
I read this while taking a breather from my Ethics coursework, ironically enough. I still need to write about Virtue Ethics and Ethical Egoism, but hey, I've got Divine Command and Cultural Relativism done!
It's never ceased to amaze me the number of times I've seen, heard about, or otherwise been informed of Christians who simply cannot behave within the known confines of the law. You'd think I'd know better by now, really, but I guess some of that early indoctrination lingers still. It's a particularly ugly sticking point for me, when the allegedly 'good' Christians just never seem to have the ability to follow their own moral standards. First they'll tell you they're called to a higher moral standard, then when you ask why they don't seem to be able to live up to even basic standards, they'll insist they aren't better, just forgiven. Pick one and stick with it, Christians.
In any event, congrats to the Satanic Temple on this one. Here's hoping that more either aren't necessary or are also successful.
That’s hilarious until you remember you drove one of their shit Explorers where the front tire was in danger of exploding. Also, anybody here remember Pintos?
Police Squad! (which spawned the "Naked Gun" movies) only lasted 6 episodes, unfortunately. You had to give it your undivided attention or you'd miss things. And all the episodes tied into one another, so you had to see them aired in the correct order. You couldn't miss an episode.
I don’t think you can really blame Henry Ford for that, he was dead for decades before any of that happened. Not defending him, but he’s not responsible for how his company was run long after his death.
The only Fords I've ever possessed in fifty years or so were an escort 1.6, and a KA. Both of which were acceptable for their time. We don't get much in the way of large American cars, and I don't think the Pinto ever made it to NZ. We tended to get the British versions.
Probably because, despite his flaws, Joe is better than the worst we could could get with a strange woman in a lake. In 2020, she couldn't possibly do worse than what we had.
There is no perfect candidate. If you had 1000 Democrats list their top 20 most important issues in order, few of the lists would match. The economy is high on many peoples lists but the president has little control over it. IMO, the recent inflation is directly and indirectly caused by the plague. Directly because supply chains were broken worldwide. Indirectly because people thought about their lives and starting demanding higher wages. Companies had trouble hiring people so they paid more. Other companies took the opportunity to raise prices for no good reason. Of course half the country thinks its Joe's fault.
I don't blame Joe for the inflation. But I don't think he's been an effective leader for Democrats and isn't particularly inspiring. He's no hero to Democrats, but he's not a villain either. About the only thing he has going for him is that he's not a batshit crazy Republican.
It’s not difficult to look up The Satanic Temple’s mission statement on their website. When I first heard about them eons ago, I was intrigued and thought someone had a wicked sense of humor. I checked out their site and was happy to see what they stood for. Anybody can do this, it’s not rocket science. I would think that would be better than going into full blown panic mode first.
Given that their leaflet describes the Satanic Temple as a non-theistic religion, I think that the uproar may have been delayed by having a different name but it would have come all the same. The problem with the current name is that I think it will keep students from going to the club. Like it or not, for most of the population, Satan and anything associated with Satan has a lot of negative connotations.
The name is part of the point; while there's no 'satanic' content in the Christian eschatological sense, it is very much part of the group's mission to be in-your-face about what policies letting (predominantly) Christian religious access to schools and government spaces will cause. When you are illustrating/making a point about the value of separation of church and state, no number of 'scientific method' marble plinths make the point as well as one big black statue of Baphomet. And no poster for a freethought club featuring Ingersoll makes the point as well as a poster for a freethought club featuring Mr. Morningstar, horns and all.
If your intent is to do more than make a point but to actually educate kids in how to think straight then the name does get in the way of doing that. So, which is more important - making a point or the kids themselves?
The point is to protect the civil rights of the students. The content of the club and the educational benefit is part of the point but not the main issue since the school itself is supposed to teach the content of the club. Students in schools that do not have the ASSC aren’t missing out on their education, but their civil liberties aren’t being threatened. This is why ASSC only go to schools with the good news clubs. The Satanic Temple isn’t an educational group that sometimes gets involved in protecting constitutional rights. It is a constitutional rights organization that uses educational programming in its objective. Using the name Satan isn’t getting in the way, it is the way to get what it’s fighting for. Protecting the constitutional rights of all citizens including children, but also women who are losing bodily autonomy, and LGBT folks and people of color, focusing on real religious liberty.
Continue being obtuse about this, every story about The Satanic Temple we tell you the same thing over and over and you concede points then go back on the next article to the same stupid talking point. The name is the fucking point. And it is what won the day.
Yes, I’m hopeful more groups will join in. And we don’t have to sacrifice the LGBT kids to make this headway. The LGBT clubs are other groups that face this hardship and they rarely have the means to fight it.
How does a school having a Good News club threaten the civil liberties of students? Are you saying that the real intent is to get the GN clubs kicked out of schools?
Maybe you need to go to the satanic temple’s website and educate yourself on their mission and the reasons they do the ASSC. Because you didn’t read this article through obviously, nor the one before or the one before that. The good news clubs overstep their bounds the schools make concessions and aid them in their efforts to recruit kids (which is unconstitutional) and when the ASSCs come to offer an alternative the schools pull weird shit to keep them from having half the access. If you aren’t going to pay attention then don’t bother commenting.
The school's employees giving preferred status to the Good News clubs is what threatens civil liberties. Like if that club doesn't need permission slips but other clubs do. Like if that religious club is allowed to meet but other religious clubs are not.
The GN club sponsors themselves may be involved in that corruption, or they may not be, in different cases. Here, in THIS case, it doesn't seem like they had anything to do with the problem. Rather it was the super responding to public pressure that seems to have started a negative chain of events, with someone helping the super cover up some preferred treatment that also happened at the school level. But whomever it was in this case, it is generally the behavior of the school officials that make the club access and rules decisions that TST is always testing, not the behavior of the participants in the GN clubs.
Perhaps. But, it's sad that institutions dedicated to learning never seem to learn which it comes to issues like this unless it hits them in the pocketbook.
I disagree. Just as you can make great ice cream with your parlour name being "Hell's Frozen Over" or "Athena's Licks", it is entirely possible to teach kids to think straight while your club name is After School Satan or After School Athena. And if your brain goes immediately to "yeah but referencing Satan is just qualitatively different from referencing Athena, or Ingersoll, even if i can't put my finger on why," then that is your brain on bias.
It does that because Satan pulled a George Lucas on God's movie. While God was focused on getting his peons to farm meat animals (Abel) and vegetables (Cain), Satan grabbed the intellectual property rights for fats and sugar.
The problem is that the kids won't be part of the club probably because the name will turn off their parents. Like it or not, there is a general bias against Satan and anything associated with satanism. It's reality and you are right that it shouldn't be that way but there it is.
With a different name the point wouldn't have been made. Whether you *like* the point, it needed to be made.
As for students not attending, I would be highly surprised if the school didn't have a policy requiring a minimum number of student members for any after-school club meeting on school grounds.
I'm not entirely sure that's a good presumption for middle-school kids. A lot of the kids I want to middle and high school with would have jumped at the chance do do anything at all with "Satanic" in the title, and probably would have been low-key disappointed to find out it was 'just' a science club.
Just out of curiosity, as a Christian, do you accept the concept of a Satan figure, a central adversary of your faith and/or humanity? There's no follow-up for this, I was just wondering.
You may be right about middle-school kids but I doubt the same could be said for many of their parents who would probably block their kid's participation. But, I could be wrong about that. I do accept the concept of a Satan figure. Now, regarding the horns and cloved feet and pitchfork tail, I'm agnostic but I accept that there are spiritual beings in rebellion against God and what they do has an impact in our world. That's why it was written in the NT that our struggle isn't against other people but spiritual powers of wickedness. That's why we're not supposed to employ the "weapons of this world" in our spiritual warfare. That ought to put the kibosh on using violence or compulsion to spread Christianity but as we know that hasn't stopped a lot of people from doing that throughout history.
Thank you for your take on Satan, I appreciate the info.
I suspect you are right about some-to-many of the kids parents being concerned about a club billing itself as Satanic. My question would then be: are those parents correct in their concerns?
Is a parent barring their child from an after-school science club because of the label making a good call? Are they teaching their child a good lesson?
If a parent who has misgivings about the labeling of the club decided to let their kid at least investigate first before making a decision likely to learn a possibly valuable lesson about books and covers?
To summarize, isn't this a real-world object lesson about overcoming bigotry?
Well, that's why I described it as a lesson, not a test.
If a kid learns that their parents' bigotry was unfounded - either because they were allowed to go themselves, or because they heard from their peers that it's just a science club with provocative branding - I think that's a win.
I would argue that getting a kid to question their parents' bigotry is a noble act, a positive act.
I've been wondering when TST would get a good, solid, honest WIN for themselves and for free speech, and it's terrific to see that it has finally happened here. Granted that the whole "Satan" thing is a big-time trigger for most believers. Still, the federal judge was able to see past that and rule the way he did and the school board could finally acknowledge their error.
Frankly, this is a big deal, never mind one hell of a precedent (no pun intended!). Let's hope that it leads to more such outcomes in the future.
From Hemant: The settlement agreement makes clear the payment is “not an admission of wrongdoing,” but rather a recognition of the fact that there was indeed a “constitutional injury resulting from the District’s decision to rescind approval for Plaintiff’s use of SVSD facilities.”
Just as I’m sure you are ‘glad’ to continue to point out the error of my words.
I’m pretty sure they appreciate my monthly/annual monetary support, as does PPH, NIA, and my local food bank. Guess that makes me less thankful for their efforts in this specific lawsuit.
The sense of Christian privilege and entitlement runs deep in this country, especially in the public schools paid for with everyone's tax dollars. The need to indoctrinate children before they've reached the age of reason is a tacit admission of just how weak the Christian message actually is. Why is it ever okay to present things to children as facts, most educated adults would reject out of hand? We need to keep chipping away at that sense of entitlement until it's gone.
Of course it's not okay to present nonproven things as fact. But how do you think they'll be able to recruit new believers if they don't catch them before critical thinking is introduced?
That was kind of the point of my comment.
𝔜𝔢 𝔬𝔩𝔡𝔢 Four to Fourteen window.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e09066e28b286dd3402779bf31fdd9d0774672faadd4d6a090ff44850a652173.jpg
𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝟒-𝟏𝟒 𝐖𝐢𝐧𝐝𝐨𝐰, 𝐝𝐞𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐝
In Christianese, the 4-14 Window describes an evangelism concept related to children. If Christians can’t indoctrinate a child between the ages of 4 and 14, then chances are good they’ll never be able to turn that person into a lifelong Christian in adulthood.
See, before four years old a child can’t really understand the threats, misinformation, gaslighting, compartmentalization, and promises that go into indoctrination. After 14, a child has likely already learned too much about reality and healthy boundaries and relationships to accept that indoctrination.
So yes, the 4-14 Window operates a bit like the window of socialization for kittens, except in reverse: Miss the window for kittens, and they’ll always have trouble speaking People. Miss the indoctrination window for children, and Christianity’s beliefs and claims will sound ridiculous, weird, and manipulative to them.
https://rolltodisbelieve.com/the-4-14-window-is-christianitys-demographic-time-bomb/
I don't think you're wrong here, but well....quite frankly, I don't trust Christian groups to do their own research anymore.
I'll admit anytime anyone wants to know that I got lucky. My family decided to move the day after I graduated from high school, and by doing so literally moved me out of the SBC bubble I'd been living in back in Alabama. That move is likely the single most important cause of my current non-belief; it allowed me to get out from under their religious thumb long enough to get out of the Christian indoctrination they had pushed onto me. If we hadn't moved, there's a very good chance I'd have never managed to get out.
So while I'd agree that those numbers and that research is both important and significant, I'm not sure it's as accurate as it should be. I know we have so many tales on how, when, and why people left religion here on this board, and I'm just not convinced that the numbers the Barna Research Group and International Bible Society gives are correct. Christianity as practiced in the US of A tends to run on fear, and keeping the average member terrified for the future is a good way of keeping them in line; we've heard the 'Think of the CHILDREN!!!11!!!' rallying cry so often it's become background noise in many cases. I also think Capt. Cassidy has some great criticisms late in the article.
Thanks for the great info otherwise, though. Getting a good look at where some of the BS came from is really helpful.
Years ago my wife and I moved to Ft. Lauderdale and our kids grew up there. I was intrigued to see that the schools closed on major Jewish holidays and the background for those holidays was included in class material. I thought it was fine that my kids were becoming multicultural but I wondered how any fundamentalist Christians moving to the area might have felt... "Oh my God Maybelle, the Jews run these schools and are forcing our kids to participate in Jewish rituals. We're all gonna go to Hell now!"
My kid recently put two and two together and figured out that all those cultural holidays the school was putting on the calendar to be more equitable in respecting different cultures and faiths was the reason he used to go back to school after Labor day, but now goes back to school before it. He got a bit more 'conservative' about the notion of fitting them all in after that. Not bigoted against any of them, just realizing that the school system has a Tragedy Of The Commons type problem with holidays, and one equality-honoring way to fix the tragedy of the commons is to not let anyone's sheep graze on it.
But that's off topic. AFAIK there was never any problem here of too many after school clubs and not enough space for them. This was all about censoring content.
That's actually a good thing for many students. A two month interruption in studies sets some children back. The first month back ends up being a review of last years materials to get them back on track. That's one less month to learn new things. But kids do need time off to thrive. Some educators want to add in a few more week long vacations and more three day weekends instead of summer vacations. But a lot of school districts don't want it because it may mean more teacher burnout and the expense of a/c.
There’s also the building maintenance to consider. Summer is a time where the staff update and repair, students are really hard on schools. This was something I did reports on while I was getting my teaching degree. There are a lot of reasons full year education isn’t implemented and one is that the students don’t actually get enough benefits from it to compensate for the wear on the building and faculty. There are some gains, but they’ve found other ways to make the same gains while keeping summer vacation.
It’s a good thought, but not doing it is very reasonable as well.
DM bought me "cahiers de vacances" every year.
https://images.app.goo.gl/yEgNhUj2qXLULa6L7
School schedule is like a lot of school things; you're trying to find a one-size-fits-district solution for a bunch of widely varying individual kids. But I didn't intend to start a debate about the pros and cons of 9- or 10-month vs. 12 month schedules. Was just responding to Die Anyway's thought on Jewish holidays. He was cynically expecting a paranoid response from his neighbors, and from what I gather was pleasantly surprised he didn't get it. I was expecting a "all holidays are great" response from my tween and was pleasantly surprised when he figured out they aren't free, and started to think through cost vs benefit.
Many kids learn important lessons during Summer vacation they don't learn in school. I'm not surprised at your kids reaction. No argument intended.
I read this while taking a breather from my Ethics coursework, ironically enough. I still need to write about Virtue Ethics and Ethical Egoism, but hey, I've got Divine Command and Cultural Relativism done!
It's never ceased to amaze me the number of times I've seen, heard about, or otherwise been informed of Christians who simply cannot behave within the known confines of the law. You'd think I'd know better by now, really, but I guess some of that early indoctrination lingers still. It's a particularly ugly sticking point for me, when the allegedly 'good' Christians just never seem to have the ability to follow their own moral standards. First they'll tell you they're called to a higher moral standard, then when you ask why they don't seem to be able to live up to even basic standards, they'll insist they aren't better, just forgiven. Pick one and stick with it, Christians.
In any event, congrats to the Satanic Temple on this one. Here's hoping that more either aren't necessary or are also successful.
Those who thump the bible go out of their way to ignore what it says about obeying all earthly laws and authorities in Romans 13:1.
And also about treating foreigners, praying in public, turning the other cheek, eating shellfish, etc etc…
It's like they don't read the bible at all.
Makes me cast doubts about the bible being the best-selling book of all time.
If anyone has ever wondered why the TST is what it is and does what it does - I'd say this is a pretty good case study.
Everyone became a tiny bit freer when they won this.
Looks like the school board got their ASS handed to them.
Yet another judge untainted by the stink of Trump? Hooray!
Ssshh, your anti christian bias is showing. Some here will soon cry persecution 😁
OT
https://tinyurl.com/bdf5mymc
That’s hilarious until you remember you drove one of their shit Explorers where the front tire was in danger of exploding. Also, anybody here remember Pintos?
Don't know if you saw "Top Secret" but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GGDOUDLhc
(just the first 17 seconds)
I haven’t but that scene made me snort with laughter
Made by the same team that made "Airplane!" and "Police Squad!" 😀
I must watch then. Airplane is one of my favorite comedies, such a great parody of Airport.
Police Squad! (which spawned the "Naked Gun" movies) only lasted 6 episodes, unfortunately. You had to give it your undivided attention or you'd miss things. And all the episodes tied into one another, so you had to see them aired in the correct order. You couldn't miss an episode.
The (not) hysterical woman being calmed 🤣
Totally silly and enjoyable movie. Skeet Surfing!!!!
Val Kilmer's film debut. Pretty good singer.
I played the RPG, once or twice.
I don’t think you can really blame Henry Ford for that, he was dead for decades before any of that happened. Not defending him, but he’s not responsible for how his company was run long after his death.
Fords suck nowadays I agree.
You are correct but as he was a notorious anti-semite, I’ll give him no props dead or alive.
Yea, he was awful.
The only Fords I've ever possessed in fifty years or so were an escort 1.6, and a KA. Both of which were acceptable for their time. We don't get much in the way of large American cars, and I don't think the Pinto ever made it to NZ. We tended to get the British versions.
Ha!
Plus he produced (mostly) affordable cars.
BURN!!! 🔥🔥🔥
No matter how often attempts to use government power to enforce Christian privilege get smacked down in court, they 𝘯𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳 get the goddamn point.
Getting smacked down is the point for many of them.
"Ah, now we see the violence in the system. Oh, come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help I'm being repressed!"
"Bloody peasant!"
https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.974805753.1428/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.jpg
Why is there no 2024 version yet?!
Probably because, despite his flaws, Joe is better than the worst we could could get with a strange woman in a lake. In 2020, she couldn't possibly do worse than what we had.
There is no perfect candidate. If you had 1000 Democrats list their top 20 most important issues in order, few of the lists would match. The economy is high on many peoples lists but the president has little control over it. IMO, the recent inflation is directly and indirectly caused by the plague. Directly because supply chains were broken worldwide. Indirectly because people thought about their lives and starting demanding higher wages. Companies had trouble hiring people so they paid more. Other companies took the opportunity to raise prices for no good reason. Of course half the country thinks its Joe's fault.
I don't blame Joe for the inflation. But I don't think he's been an effective leader for Democrats and isn't particularly inspiring. He's no hero to Democrats, but he's not a villain either. About the only thing he has going for him is that he's not a batshit crazy Republican.
Good.
The court said the provocative name does not give anyone cover to unconstitutionally limit civil liberties.
"Just call in a threat." Christians think nothing of resorting to terrorism to get their way.
Much fear, I sense in them.
The Hell, you say.
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91_G8iaokk8 (He says it better)
Think George had Fundamentalists in mind when he wrote that?
It’s not difficult to look up The Satanic Temple’s mission statement on their website. When I first heard about them eons ago, I was intrigued and thought someone had a wicked sense of humor. I checked out their site and was happy to see what they stood for. Anybody can do this, it’s not rocket science. I would think that would be better than going into full blown panic mode first.
Gotta love that snark about the font size.
How long before someone comes commenting that they should have just called it a science club? Then there would be no hoopla (maybe).
I wish I believed the next school district would learn from this, but I doubt it. Not with ADF whispering in their ears.
Given that their leaflet describes the Satanic Temple as a non-theistic religion, I think that the uproar may have been delayed by having a different name but it would have come all the same. The problem with the current name is that I think it will keep students from going to the club. Like it or not, for most of the population, Satan and anything associated with Satan has a lot of negative connotations.
The name is part of the point; while there's no 'satanic' content in the Christian eschatological sense, it is very much part of the group's mission to be in-your-face about what policies letting (predominantly) Christian religious access to schools and government spaces will cause. When you are illustrating/making a point about the value of separation of church and state, no number of 'scientific method' marble plinths make the point as well as one big black statue of Baphomet. And no poster for a freethought club featuring Ingersoll makes the point as well as a poster for a freethought club featuring Mr. Morningstar, horns and all.
If your intent is to do more than make a point but to actually educate kids in how to think straight then the name does get in the way of doing that. So, which is more important - making a point or the kids themselves?
We know, we know.
The point is to protect the civil rights of the students. The content of the club and the educational benefit is part of the point but not the main issue since the school itself is supposed to teach the content of the club. Students in schools that do not have the ASSC aren’t missing out on their education, but their civil liberties aren’t being threatened. This is why ASSC only go to schools with the good news clubs. The Satanic Temple isn’t an educational group that sometimes gets involved in protecting constitutional rights. It is a constitutional rights organization that uses educational programming in its objective. Using the name Satan isn’t getting in the way, it is the way to get what it’s fighting for. Protecting the constitutional rights of all citizens including children, but also women who are losing bodily autonomy, and LGBT folks and people of color, focusing on real religious liberty.
Continue being obtuse about this, every story about The Satanic Temple we tell you the same thing over and over and you concede points then go back on the next article to the same stupid talking point. The name is the fucking point. And it is what won the day.
Brava. And now, an Islamic or Jewish or Native American club knows they have a way forward in this school district without having to be the target.
Every fucking time with this guy.
Yes, I’m hopeful more groups will join in. And we don’t have to sacrifice the LGBT kids to make this headway. The LGBT clubs are other groups that face this hardship and they rarely have the means to fight it.
How does a school having a Good News club threaten the civil liberties of students? Are you saying that the real intent is to get the GN clubs kicked out of schools?
Maybe you need to go to the satanic temple’s website and educate yourself on their mission and the reasons they do the ASSC. Because you didn’t read this article through obviously, nor the one before or the one before that. The good news clubs overstep their bounds the schools make concessions and aid them in their efforts to recruit kids (which is unconstitutional) and when the ASSCs come to offer an alternative the schools pull weird shit to keep them from having half the access. If you aren’t going to pay attention then don’t bother commenting.
The school's employees giving preferred status to the Good News clubs is what threatens civil liberties. Like if that club doesn't need permission slips but other clubs do. Like if that religious club is allowed to meet but other religious clubs are not.
The GN club sponsors themselves may be involved in that corruption, or they may not be, in different cases. Here, in THIS case, it doesn't seem like they had anything to do with the problem. Rather it was the super responding to public pressure that seems to have started a negative chain of events, with someone helping the super cover up some preferred treatment that also happened at the school level. But whomever it was in this case, it is generally the behavior of the school officials that make the club access and rules decisions that TST is always testing, not the behavior of the participants in the GN clubs.
When it *just* has a GN club and resists any other religion then yes, students' civil liberties are being violated.
Honestly, it *is* questionable whether GN clubs have any place in our schools. Proselytizing certainly doesn't.
If students want to learn about Christianity, churches outnumber schools by at least an order of magnitude.
The point *needs* to be made. Over and over again apparently because school boards and principals are too blind to learn from each other's mistakes.
Perhaps. But, it's sad that institutions dedicated to learning never seem to learn which it comes to issues like this unless it hits them in the pocketbook.
I disagree. Just as you can make great ice cream with your parlour name being "Hell's Frozen Over" or "Athena's Licks", it is entirely possible to teach kids to think straight while your club name is After School Satan or After School Athena. And if your brain goes immediately to "yeah but referencing Satan is just qualitatively different from referencing Athena, or Ingersoll, even if i can't put my finger on why," then that is your brain on bias.
I am not sure bigots* make a difference between Athena and Satan. Frst christians sects sure didn't.
* I mean those who burn HP books for witchcraft.
PS OT : I would like to know why a proteinated pudding allegedly adapted for diabetics make my glycemia skyrocketing every time I eat one 🤬
It does that because Satan pulled a George Lucas on God's movie. While God was focused on getting his peons to farm meat animals (Abel) and vegetables (Cain), Satan grabbed the intellectual property rights for fats and sugar.
The problem is that the kids won't be part of the club probably because the name will turn off their parents. Like it or not, there is a general bias against Satan and anything associated with satanism. It's reality and you are right that it shouldn't be that way but there it is.
I wouldn't be so sure of that conclusion. The age cohort that has left religion never to return is beginning to have school age children.
With a different name the point wouldn't have been made. Whether you *like* the point, it needed to be made.
As for students not attending, I would be highly surprised if the school didn't have a policy requiring a minimum number of student members for any after-school club meeting on school grounds.
I'm not entirely sure that's a good presumption for middle-school kids. A lot of the kids I want to middle and high school with would have jumped at the chance do do anything at all with "Satanic" in the title, and probably would have been low-key disappointed to find out it was 'just' a science club.
Just out of curiosity, as a Christian, do you accept the concept of a Satan figure, a central adversary of your faith and/or humanity? There's no follow-up for this, I was just wondering.
You may be right about middle-school kids but I doubt the same could be said for many of their parents who would probably block their kid's participation. But, I could be wrong about that. I do accept the concept of a Satan figure. Now, regarding the horns and cloved feet and pitchfork tail, I'm agnostic but I accept that there are spiritual beings in rebellion against God and what they do has an impact in our world. That's why it was written in the NT that our struggle isn't against other people but spiritual powers of wickedness. That's why we're not supposed to employ the "weapons of this world" in our spiritual warfare. That ought to put the kibosh on using violence or compulsion to spread Christianity but as we know that hasn't stopped a lot of people from doing that throughout history.
Thank you for your take on Satan, I appreciate the info.
I suspect you are right about some-to-many of the kids parents being concerned about a club billing itself as Satanic. My question would then be: are those parents correct in their concerns?
Is a parent barring their child from an after-school science club because of the label making a good call? Are they teaching their child a good lesson?
If a parent who has misgivings about the labeling of the club decided to let their kid at least investigate first before making a decision likely to learn a possibly valuable lesson about books and covers?
To summarize, isn't this a real-world object lesson about overcoming bigotry?
It may be an object lesson but it's one that I expect a lot of parents would flunk.
Well, that's why I described it as a lesson, not a test.
If a kid learns that their parents' bigotry was unfounded - either because they were allowed to go themselves, or because they heard from their peers that it's just a science club with provocative branding - I think that's a win.
I would argue that getting a kid to question their parents' bigotry is a noble act, a positive act.
Same way with Promotheus giving humankind fire myth.
It's almost as if one mythic sect was copying an other mythic sect.
Feel free to help me making that sentence better or more logic.
I've been wondering when TST would get a good, solid, honest WIN for themselves and for free speech, and it's terrific to see that it has finally happened here. Granted that the whole "Satan" thing is a big-time trigger for most believers. Still, the federal judge was able to see past that and rule the way he did and the school board could finally acknowledge their error.
Frankly, this is a big deal, never mind one hell of a precedent (no pun intended!). Let's hope that it leads to more such outcomes in the future.
From Hemant: The settlement agreement makes clear the payment is “not an admission of wrongdoing,” but rather a recognition of the fact that there was indeed a “constitutional injury resulting from the District’s decision to rescind approval for Plaintiff’s use of SVSD facilities.”
So no acknowledgement of error on their part.
Hail Satan!!! But seriously, I’m so thankful for the FFRF and all the work they do to protect our rights as free thinkers.
Afaik, the FFRF wasn't involved in this case.
That’s true but they are in many similar lawsuits. I’m still thankful for FFRF and ‘others’ who protect our rights.
I'm sure TST and the ACLU will be glad they are "others".
Just as I’m sure you are ‘glad’ to continue to point out the error of my words.
I’m pretty sure they appreciate my monthly/annual monetary support, as does PPH, NIA, and my local food bank. Guess that makes me less thankful for their efforts in this specific lawsuit.
Portland Press Herald?
Great outcome — especially with the ouster of the Christianists from the school board!!
Good thing the school board was flipped over and choose reason instead of appealing all the way to the sc. Children need more fun in their lives.
It if the children aren’t miserable, how are they supposed to be indoctrinated into kristianity?