Simple question for this asshole: “If teachers have a 1st Amendment right to display Bible verses in their classrooms, then do they also have a 1st Amendment right to display a rainbow “Love is Love” sign?”
Well that wouldn't be a 1a religious clause issue, though it may be a 1a freedom of speech clause issue. Though probably not, for the same FFRF logic would apply: personal expression outside of the classroom is fine, but in the classroom you are an agent of the state.
It would also be interesting to see how he'd respond if a teacher put up "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" as a "personal" item. Yeah, the FFRF would be right to send a letter there too, but I'm guessing this guy would bust a gasket and try to have the sign removed/teacher fired before that letter was even written.
I'm guessing this guy would treat that the same way he'd treat a Muslim 'personal expression.'
I'm also guessing it's a completely hypothetical question because there are probably zero teachers in this Oklahoma district who are TST members. There may be some freethinkers who would do a 'Scopes' and agree to do it as a test case, but even that seems very unlikely.
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
OT Anybody keeping score on how thoughts and prayers for people in Israel and Gaza are affecting actual outcomes? I'm pretty sure it's up to 0.00% but let's look at the evidence. And whose God is Winning: Yahweh, Allah, or Jesus? (I would have posted this ad a new comment except that Substack has now removed the Post button on new comments. Another feature improvement?)
Installing a basic formatting tool for comments (e.g., Bold, Italic, strikethrough) would be incredibly easy for Substack to do--yet they don't. Another example of how poor platform development and programming impacts the utility of the platform. Undoubtedly this work is outsourced.
Never understood why they wouldn't make a basic Disqus tool available. I can see why they wouldn't want GIFs and memes, but italics and such? What's the harm there?
The Post button (and the Cancel button) on the standalone comment window disappeared altogether for a few hours on my instance--on mobile and desktop browser, and after multiple refreshes. Then they magically reappeared.
0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% (i.e., a miracle, which is taken by adherents of each of the gods as direct evidence of existence of said deity).
Unlike Yahweh and Jesus who never answer prayers, Allah has already issued a fatwah on you for your response. If some swarthy, terrorist-looking guys with thick beards and large overcoats come knocking on your door, that's Allah sending a message.
"This type of letter substitutes demands for legal reasoning. The activist organization attempts to portray religion as a "divisive force in public schools", while creating the divisive atmosphere itself by attempting to bully a rural school district with an anonymous "complainant."
Kinda like emptying Florida classrooms and libraries of books substituted demands for legal reasoning?
I mean how dare the people we’re trying to oppress stand up for themselves. They’re the ones who are divisive. If they only shut up and take it everything will be just hunky dory.
You need to know your place is under the boot of a White, Protestant, cishet man. That applies to all gay, trans, non-white, non-Christian and, the majority minority, female people.
If you want to see something move faster than light. Just put up a sign that says "Allahu Akbar" in the classroom. There will be a violation of cause and effect as it will be taken down even before it was put up.
Actually, the speed of light is measurable, as is its variance in different media. As for that old phrase, "only a theory" ... [gag!] I honestly wish idiots like Walters could be bothered to understand how abused that term – "theory" – truly is.
Sadly, people like Walters know what they believe and can't be bothered with inconvenient things like FACTS.
"Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
Walters and his ilk understand how abused the term is, how else will they be able to manipulate the masses to their way of thinking. They do it intentionally.
[And yeah, I know, we all know what a scientific theory is, but honestly, the kind of determined stupidity exemplified by Walters and his ilk just make me sick. This crap was old 10 squares back.]
The men who wrote the Constitution knew their European history, and wanted no repeat of the religious strife that had left the old world drenched in blood. They deliberately did not give religion any role in their new government, because they had people like Ryan Walters in mind. They did, however, protect the rights of people to practice their faith, but specifically banned religious tests for holding public office in their new republic. Walters apparently assumes if we break down the barriers between church and state it will be HIS tribe calling the shots, and that is a very foolish assumption. He should be imaging the tribe he hates most having control over his life, because that would definitely be someone's reality. The idea church-state separation is state sanctioned atheism is childishly absurd.
It's ironic that freedom of religion in America has resulted in christians retconning history and attempting to repeat Europe's religious strife. Meanwhile, in Europe, most states have a state religion and are more secular than America.
I'd almost be tempted to just let it happen, except it would set us back 400 years (back when America was great), result in massive amounts of harm and death. On top of that, with today's technology and the most prolific military in the world, they would gleefully inflict huge amounts of damage for economic gain. Or worse. Imagine putting nuclear weapons in the hands of a deranged pope who could literally bring about the end of world.
A select few of them do. Many christians think the actual words used are the real message. However, the spin around the topic obfuscates the elite's real agenda: christian fascism.
They're trying to bring handmaids back into fashion.
Now that I think about it, is this all just a ploy so wealthy men can openly have sex with the nanny without losing half. Inquiring minds wanna know.
They know exactly what they're asking for. They just believe that they'll always be the majority or that they can use this power to stay the majority - thus they believe they'll never be on the receiving end of lopsided laws. And they believe that with the absolute confidence of a person who has never been on the wrong side of those laws and doesn't take history seriously.
I don't think they all do, they just assume everything will be perfect if their religion was in charge. The idea a country as large and diverse as the United States would passively submit to living in a theocracy is about as stupidly dangerous as thinking gets. The never-ending horror story that is the Middle-East is a perfect example of why you don't want religion in government.
Well 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 guy sure wouldn't look out of place next to a hundred other guys with the same haircut, goose-stepping around with tiki torches, chanting "the Jews will not replace us!"
Are you sure it's hair gel? Given their reactionary mindset, there's a good possibility they're still using Wildroot Cream Oil. Especially if they're twins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA2-ZDg0zy8
[He formed a faith committee to examine prayer in public schools; the committee, full of conservative Christian pastors, soon recommended putting the Ten Commandments in every classroom.]
Being surrounded by the Bible has hardly kept Christian pastors from preying on non-consenting men, women, and children, so I fail to see what good it would do for school kids.
The first amendment protects citizens from the government. The first amendment then must restrict government workers in their capacity of government workers. A public school teacher, in the classroom and using government space and supplies (even if they pay for the supplies themselves, which they should never be forced to do yet are constantly required to do since jerks like this refuse to fully fund the public schools) is a government worker and as such is restricted from establishing a religion in that classroom. The teacher in most other situations can be as religious as they wish (school functions and other public activities focused on education like educational conferences count as being government and therefore restricted). They are free to attend church, pray as loudly as they like, and tell anyone to follow Jesus. The classroom is not the place for it.
If your religious convictions are that weak that not mentioning every second of every day, equals promoting atheism, then you need to reflect on why that is. Nowhere does FFRF say teachers have to tell student there is no god, they’re not telling teachers how to worship or what to say, they’re just asking teachers to not bring it up in the classroom.
The memos are pure projection. FFRF is not bullying anyone, they protecting the students from bullying teachers and administrators. And if religion wasn’t divisive, as Walters is claiming, then why is it such a problem to be asked to stop?
And “He is still good” is vaguely spiritual?!? My ass it’s vague. And why would you have to keep reminding yourself that this deity is still good? Why would you question the goodness of god if he really was good all the time? Shitty things happening in your life and in the world that are attributed to god aren’t so good and you still try to pretend he is good. But back to the point, there is no other context for that phrase but Christianity.
Pyromaniacal, angry, merciless, curse hurling, vaccicidal, aborticidal, cannibalistic and slavemonger. Then he moved on to Jesus' less-than-sterling qualities.
There are so many forms of state sponsored atheism that it is difficult to keep track of these days. Just look at your driver's license. Not a single mention of Jesus. Not one. Atheism!!! Look at your social security number. Not one mention of the redeeming power of Christ. Just the other day I had to file a 1199-A4 to create a limited liability company to shield the profits I make from scamming old ladies from the IRS, and not once on that form did it mention the vengeful and awesome Yahweh. Atheism is all around us.
Funnily enough, drivers licenses and social security numbers were opposed by these same types of folks as the mark of the beast. As for the government business forms, we all remember the fit the nuns had over having to fill out a form to be exempt from Obamacare.
A local radio guy was just playing some clips (I don't know how recent) about people complaining that they weren't legally able to enjoy a couple of beers while driving home after a hard day's work.
My hospital group is religious based, I don’t like it but that’s what’s in network for my insurance. I delight in reading this blog when I’m at appointments and stuff just to quietly stick it to them for shoving their god in my face when I’m trying to feel better. What makes them think that images of a dying man on a stick will provide a sense of confidence in their healthcare?
Anyway, I got to spend yesterday morning in the emergency room discovering a fibroid in my uterus. So I read FA while I was waiting. Internet access wasn’t great so I couldn’t participate much, but it was still fun finding out about more atheists in the world.
I’m fine and it’s treatable and not too concerning. It’s very common and totally benign.
"What makes them think that images of a dying man on a stick will provide a sense of confidence in their healthcare?"
See that guy? He went to our competitors!
Good luck with treatment, glad it's nothing major. I'm about to head over for a doctor's appointment myself. Similar issue, just a minor problem that's more a nuisance than anything, but we've hit our deductible because of all the other big issues this year.
Yeah, we generally hit our deductible around June. But for some reason we keep having some bills this year. The latest insurance isn’t what we expected. But what can ya do, gotta go with what your employer offers.
Oh, you can always pay for a plan on the exchange. But, no matter how bad you think your employer's insurance is, I would put money down that the plans you can get on the exchange are worse.
In fairness, the paranoiacs had a point about SSN. The government's "oh no, this will never be used by anyone for any identification purposes" promise lasted about as long as it took to type up a one-page form.
True, but they’re now crying about the mark of the beast in vaccines or other crap. Even bar codes were thought to be the mark of the beast, still is at Hobby Lobby.
I believe I was about six when I first heard that "mark of the beast" nonsense
spouted from the pulpit. An hour later, I was at home frantically going through all the stuff in the pantry while mom was cooking lunch - and freaking out at all the bar codes I saw on nearly everything. I can't remember how she and dad explained that one away, except for saying that it wasn't something I needed to worry about. What? Our house was Mark of the Beast Central, and I wasn't supposed to WORRY about it?!
In a few days, though, real life with school and after school reasserted itself and I sort of forgot about it after a while when nothing really bad happened to us.
They always forget it has to be made on the right hand or forehead. When we start embedding credit 'cards' in our hands, then I might believe the mark of the beast.
Somebody must have figured it would make a pretty good con. Sell the idea of "barcodes as the Mark of the Beast for merch." You had to have it on whatever you were selling, and only people with the mark on their hands or forehead cold buy it. Anything to scare people into coming to church and forking over their money.
Amazing to me now that I once believe this insane crap....and a bit surprising that it seemed to have fizzled out after a while.
An ID number makes perfect sense. Names can duplicate. There's someone in Dallas with my full name. Acting like it's some big secret is what is leading to all the identity theft. Especially since for several years the Real ID act required it in the bar code encoding on the back of your license and some states still do it.
On Tuesday I went to the DMV to renew my driver's license. I was shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that none of the forms I filled out mentioned a god. The employees who took my fingerprint and my picture neglected to read out bibble verses. And, most shocking of all, none of the 30 questions on the written exam contained a sermon. I'll get my new license in a couple of weeks (with the usual horrible picture), and it will have nothing about religious practice on the card. This situation is intolerable! (ahem.)
Think it took about 2 weeks to get mine. The good thing is, unless they do something revolutionary like I suggested, I won't have to go back to ID office (DPS in Texas) for another 9 years. When it needs to be renewed in 3, I can order it online. (They require a new picture every 12 years)
In addition to placing “In God We Trust” in public schools and on other government buildings, Project Blitz also aims to pass bills that give motorists the option of a license plate that includes “In God We Trust.”
“In God We Trust” license plates are already available in 20 states. In some states, such as Tennessee after its 2017 bill, the phrase will appear on every license plate.
Not only are these bills divisive, they also frequently help fund religious groups without requiring transparency or oversight. This creates a situation ripe for abuse with the state aiding and abetting this activity.
Yes. It was funny and entertaining. How representative it was of actual Latinx culture (if there is such a thing given the diverse cultures of Latin and South America) is debatable, but I enjoyed it. And I'm not surprised it came and went quickly. I'd never heard of Blue Beetle before. The theater crowd was heavily Latinx and rather full 2-3 weeks after release here in SA.
My in-laws visited us a couple years ago, and they brought along a stack of old comic books they picked up at a rummage sale for the kids. Mostly junk, nothing I'd ever heard of, but one was a Blue Beetle comic. I came across it again while cleaning out a few things right after the movie came out.
I picked up a trade paperback of the 𝘑𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘓𝘦𝘢𝘨𝘶𝘦 𝘐𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭, which was a collection of the comics from the 80s. By the end, all I knew about Blue Beetle was that he had a ship and was the teams chauffeur. I also learned nothing about who and what are Booster Gold and Mister Miracle. The highlight was Batman knocking out the Guy Gardner Green Lantern with one punch.
But Greg Berlanti does. DC movies have been lackluster since the Michael Keaton series (I enjoyed Chris O'Donnell as Robin, but then...), but Berlanti's DC television series were pretty good.
Godot does a pretty good Wonder Woman (although the costume is still ridiculous) I'm hoping Blue Beetle will hit Max soon, because I'd like to watch it again. I'm hoping the same of Barbie. From the first trailer I saw I thought it looked interesting, but after conservatives lost their shit over it, I really want to see it.
Pardon me for putting my two cents in, but I have to say I'd goddamn tired of hearing comic book movies called a "universe." It strikes me as a laughable attempt to make them sound more important and more substantial than they actually are. They're just a collection of silly movies, nothing more. There's a perfectly good, simple reason why The Maltese Falcon was never touted as part of the "Sam Spade Universe." Is Babes in Toyland part of the "Laurel and Hardy Universe," then? Enough already.
Technically it was done under the old regime but was able to be shoehorned into the new DCCU because of its stand alone nature. Doesn’t really show what the James Gunn era will be able to do.
I’m optimistic. The Peacemaker series and the Harley Quinn animated show are significantly better than almost everything MCU since Endgame.
There it is again. The FFRF covers all 50 states + DC. Where was the hue and cry from cristers when that out-of-state group NOM was running from state to state trying to scuttle marriage equality before NOM finally faced its Waterloo in my state?
Moms of liberty are not locals either. Matt Walsh didn’t live in the state where he spoke at the school board - he literally rented a basement room from a friend for a dollar just to speak. Hell, his kids aren’t even in a public school anywhere. Where’s the outrage over these instances?
They’re only out of state radicals when he doesn’t agree with their stance of following the constitution.
There's a Waterloo in the US? Interesting – I didn't assignment on the battle of Waterloo a few years ago, and there are numerous places named after Waterloo in Britain and the Commonwealth, including a railway station just down the road from me. But I didn't think there'd be any in the US.
I don't think the U.S. has a single original name for a city/town. They're either Spanish, Some Native American Language, or named after somewhere in England or Germany.
Someone needs to tell this twit Walters the difference between atheism and SECULARISM. Frankly, I'm not certain that there really is any such thing as an atheistic government. I WILL say that the government of the United States was meant to be SECULAR. By that, I mean that it was meant to be INDEPENDENT of ANY form of religion, and with that, put in a position of treating all people of all religions [edit: as well as those of NO religion] 𝗘𝗤𝗨𝗔𝗟𝗟𝗬.
Per usual, people like Walters either can't get that or don't want to get that. They want the privilege which theoretically goes with being what used to be the majority religion in the US. What he apparently is unaware of is that religious practice in the US is on the decline, whereas the nones – atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and those who are unaffiliated with ANY religion – are increasing in number on a near-daily basis.
It may well take an FFRF lawsuit to get Walters to wake up and smell the coffee, and frankly, that doesn't bother me at all.
There's no such thing as secularism to these guys; if you aren't talking Jesus in everything you do, then your actions are promoting atheism or some other religion.
It's like since the 1960s God has regressed. He used to be this big scary superhero, but fundamentalist evangelicalism has turned him into a co-dependent whiny 2-year old who needs your attention RIGHT NOW...for all values of 'right now.'
Andrew L. Seidel had it right back in 2019. Christian Nationalism is Un-American.
Anyone who embraces the concept of Christian Nationalism automatically dubs themselves traitors that spit on the US Constitution and the country's secular laws.
We've been seeing quite a lot of people like this lately, people who swear they follow their Jesus and want to defend Christians but mostly seem to be after the power to make everyone else bend to their will. I've seen this song and dance many times, and it never ends well so far as I can tell, someone always gets sc***ed over or there's a massive scandal. Quite frankly, it's past time to take out the garbage; this isn't doing anyone any good and it's getting in the way of things that might.
I admit I'm tired. I'm also heartsick over the situations in the Ukraine and Gaza. I'm probably going to go watch a video of kittens when I get done here. At this point, I sort of wish Mr. Walters would choke on his own vitriol and get it over with, because the world has bigger problems than his grandstanding for Jesus letters would have one believe. This is also quite a bit of the reason so many people aren't going to church anymore, too; it's starting to feel like we're all always at church with all the self-righteous preaching going on all the time.
Yeah. Off to kitten videos. Take care of yourselves out there.
Since when has teaching math, reading, writing, home economics, social studies, language classes and other topics needed to perform in today's society become a religious issue?
It will be conveniently explained away as "some of the writers may have misunderstood a few of the details God revealed, but they got the gist of the story down, and that's what's important." *
*an actual explanation I heard in a church several years ago.
Simple question for this asshole: “If teachers have a 1st Amendment right to display Bible verses in their classrooms, then do they also have a 1st Amendment right to display a rainbow “Love is Love” sign?”
Well that wouldn't be a 1a religious clause issue, though it may be a 1a freedom of speech clause issue. Though probably not, for the same FFRF logic would apply: personal expression outside of the classroom is fine, but in the classroom you are an agent of the state.
It would also be interesting to see how he'd respond if a teacher put up "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" as a "personal" item. Yeah, the FFRF would be right to send a letter there too, but I'm guessing this guy would bust a gasket and try to have the sign removed/teacher fired before that letter was even written.
How about TST's Seven Tenets?
(Or is it the David Tennants?)
I'm guessing this guy would treat that the same way he'd treat a Muslim 'personal expression.'
I'm also guessing it's a completely hypothetical question because there are probably zero teachers in this Oklahoma district who are TST members. There may be some freethinkers who would do a 'Scopes' and agree to do it as a test case, but even that seems very unlikely.
THERE ARE SEVEN FUNDAMENTAL TENETS
I
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Good stuff indeed.
Who?
No, Who's on first.
Or the lyrics to Imagine by John Lennon.
But Walters doesn't care about the First Amendment.
Religious displays GOOD, all others about love and equality and that BS are BAD.
Very BLACK and WHITE in Walters' world.
Walter's world isn't black and white; it's just white, very, very white.
So true!!
And they know quite well that Jesus was a white man with blue eyes.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a6c0cd929e7ac4e621bf8a10ca53402c3a457628a328b4d434582a841e873dbb.jpg
One of his miracles not mentioned in the gospels.
Maybe that's why so many of them have faces like boiled potatoes.
In Ryan's world, Jesus > First Amendment.
OT Anybody keeping score on how thoughts and prayers for people in Israel and Gaza are affecting actual outcomes? I'm pretty sure it's up to 0.00% but let's look at the evidence. And whose God is Winning: Yahweh, Allah, or Jesus? (I would have posted this ad a new comment except that Substack has now removed the Post button on new comments. Another feature improvement?)
Can you expand that number out a few decimals?
Substack seems to have fixed the problem with the Post button. God's will or just shitty programming? Hard to tell.
We've seen abundant evidence of shitty programming.
That's a relief...I was praying it might have been god's will.
Post a standalone comment? The button's on the right. Reply to a comment? It's on the left. Substack seems conflicted.
Installing a basic formatting tool for comments (e.g., Bold, Italic, strikethrough) would be incredibly easy for Substack to do--yet they don't. Another example of how poor platform development and programming impacts the utility of the platform. Undoubtedly this work is outsourced.
Never understood why they wouldn't make a basic Disqus tool available. I can see why they wouldn't want GIFs and memes, but italics and such? What's the harm there?
The Post button (and the Cancel button) on the standalone comment window disappeared altogether for a few hours on my instance--on mobile and desktop browser, and after multiple refreshes. Then they magically reappeared.
For me, the standalone comment button disappeared and the reply button would freeze up and erase avatars.
I'm thinking this was God's will...I write alot of things that would piss off an almighty, omnipotent, omniscient group of gods.
0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% (i.e., a miracle, which is taken by adherents of each of the gods as direct evidence of existence of said deity).
Still an overestimate by maybe a couple trillion orders of magnitude.
Unlike Yahweh and Jesus who never answer prayers, Allah has already issued a fatwah on you for your response. If some swarthy, terrorist-looking guys with thick beards and large overcoats come knocking on your door, that's Allah sending a message.
Or the Duck Dynasty guys. Maybe not so swarthy...
Yep, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of the good (enough).
Saturday update: Yahweh 2,167, Allah 1307. Las Vegas oddsmakers have Yahweh winning by a landslide. Jesus remains on the sidelines.
That would go over like a lead balloon. Because the conservatives it's always freedom of speech for me not thee.
If a teacher wants to keep it religious, they should put up a sign like this:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9a68c3a5e8eed19eb2fa441de2fcf4e45aad666f38739dcfe9c318940daaf167.jpg
I would like to see what Ryan Walters has to say about that.
Swiped from:
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Loves-Gays-Bible-believing-Christians-ebook/dp/B07NQT7YP3
Should really say, 'He spent three years wandering around with just 12 men and no women, My Jesus *was* gay'
"This type of letter substitutes demands for legal reasoning. The activist organization attempts to portray religion as a "divisive force in public schools", while creating the divisive atmosphere itself by attempting to bully a rural school district with an anonymous "complainant."
Kinda like emptying Florida classrooms and libraries of books substituted demands for legal reasoning?
Project much?
I mean how dare the people we’re trying to oppress stand up for themselves. They’re the ones who are divisive. If they only shut up and take it everything will be just hunky dory.
You need to know your place is under the boot of a White, Protestant, cishet man. That applies to all gay, trans, non-white, non-Christian and, the majority minority, female people.
Yep.
If you want to see something move faster than light. Just put up a sign that says "Allahu Akbar" in the classroom. There will be a violation of cause and effect as it will be taken down even before it was put up.
The speed of light is only a theory.
Actually, the speed of light is measurable, as is its variance in different media. As for that old phrase, "only a theory" ... [gag!] I honestly wish idiots like Walters could be bothered to understand how abused that term – "theory" – truly is.
Sadly, people like Walters know what they believe and can't be bothered with inconvenient things like FACTS.
"Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
-T. Pratchett.
Hello darkness my old friend...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UMtap4jHSeY
I prefer Mr. Blackmore's more multi-colored years...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORnvO1VyYMk
https://youtu.be/AFYbz2AXn8g
https://youtu.be/rQvu5Eo7rKI
...I've come to talk with you again..."
Walters and his ilk understand how abused the term is, how else will they be able to manipulate the masses to their way of thinking. They do it intentionally.
Only in the lame stream media, commie socialist fascist anarchist authoritarian swine!
That's only your theory.
Uh-huh ... mine and a WHOLE LOT of OTHERS.
[And yeah, I know, we all know what a scientific theory is, but honestly, the kind of determined stupidity exemplified by Walters and his ilk just make me sick. This crap was old 10 squares back.]
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0a54adddd45bfbff1db42dad732c3cbaf78a25b5df175e0ae58a09a7dc80d6ad.png
Like gravity.
Tommy Tuberville got a dose of gravity the other day.
If he landed on his head, he wouldn't have hurt anything important.
And a good idea.
That sounds like a trap...
The men who wrote the Constitution knew their European history, and wanted no repeat of the religious strife that had left the old world drenched in blood. They deliberately did not give religion any role in their new government, because they had people like Ryan Walters in mind. They did, however, protect the rights of people to practice their faith, but specifically banned religious tests for holding public office in their new republic. Walters apparently assumes if we break down the barriers between church and state it will be HIS tribe calling the shots, and that is a very foolish assumption. He should be imaging the tribe he hates most having control over his life, because that would definitely be someone's reality. The idea church-state separation is state sanctioned atheism is childishly absurd.
It's ironic that freedom of religion in America has resulted in christians retconning history and attempting to repeat Europe's religious strife. Meanwhile, in Europe, most states have a state religion and are more secular than America.
I'd almost be tempted to just let it happen, except it would set us back 400 years (back when America was great), result in massive amounts of harm and death. On top of that, with today's technology and the most prolific military in the world, they would gleefully inflict huge amounts of damage for economic gain. Or worse. Imagine putting nuclear weapons in the hands of a deranged pope who could literally bring about the end of world.
That's just it. The people who would blow up church-state separation do not seem to understand what they're asking for.
A select few of them do. Many christians think the actual words used are the real message. However, the spin around the topic obfuscates the elite's real agenda: christian fascism.
They're trying to bring handmaids back into fashion.
Now that I think about it, is this all just a ploy so wealthy men can openly have sex with the nanny without losing half. Inquiring minds wanna know.
They know exactly what they're asking for. They just believe that they'll always be the majority or that they can use this power to stay the majority - thus they believe they'll never be on the receiving end of lopsided laws. And they believe that with the absolute confidence of a person who has never been on the wrong side of those laws and doesn't take history seriously.
I don't think they all do, they just assume everything will be perfect if their religion was in charge. The idea a country as large and diverse as the United States would passively submit to living in a theocracy is about as stupidly dangerous as thinking gets. The never-ending horror story that is the Middle-East is a perfect example of why you don't want religion in government.
Like, say, Donald Trump?
Yes, Donald "The Rotting Mango" t-Rump.
“He should be imaging the tribe he hates most having control over his life, because that would definitely be someone's reality.”
But that wouldn’t be his reality. And trying to understand someone else’s reality is empathy, and that’s demonic.
Well 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 guy sure wouldn't look out of place next to a hundred other guys with the same haircut, goose-stepping around with tiki torches, chanting "the Jews will not replace us!"
What 𝘪𝘴 it with Nazis and hair gel, anyways?
Are you sure it's hair gel? Given their reactionary mindset, there's a good possibility they're still using Wildroot Cream Oil. Especially if they're twins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA2-ZDg0zy8
Just a dab'll do ya.
That's Brylcreem. :)
[He formed a faith committee to examine prayer in public schools; the committee, full of conservative Christian pastors, soon recommended putting the Ten Commandments in every classroom.]
Being surrounded by the Bible has hardly kept Christian pastors from preying on non-consenting men, women, and children, so I fail to see what good it would do for school kids.
Funny how xtian religinuts never object to state sponsorship of their faith through taxpayer $$$.
Non-denominationals will take all types of cash.
So the non-denominationals will take all denominations? 😉
PASTOR: "Our church welcomes all denominations, but my favorite is the $20.00 bill."
Johnny?
June Carter? Roseanne?
That's because they're convinced we have a christian government in this christian nation.
Poor, deluded saps.
The first amendment protects citizens from the government. The first amendment then must restrict government workers in their capacity of government workers. A public school teacher, in the classroom and using government space and supplies (even if they pay for the supplies themselves, which they should never be forced to do yet are constantly required to do since jerks like this refuse to fully fund the public schools) is a government worker and as such is restricted from establishing a religion in that classroom. The teacher in most other situations can be as religious as they wish (school functions and other public activities focused on education like educational conferences count as being government and therefore restricted). They are free to attend church, pray as loudly as they like, and tell anyone to follow Jesus. The classroom is not the place for it.
If your religious convictions are that weak that not mentioning every second of every day, equals promoting atheism, then you need to reflect on why that is. Nowhere does FFRF say teachers have to tell student there is no god, they’re not telling teachers how to worship or what to say, they’re just asking teachers to not bring it up in the classroom.
The memos are pure projection. FFRF is not bullying anyone, they protecting the students from bullying teachers and administrators. And if religion wasn’t divisive, as Walters is claiming, then why is it such a problem to be asked to stop?
And “He is still good” is vaguely spiritual?!? My ass it’s vague. And why would you have to keep reminding yourself that this deity is still good? Why would you question the goodness of god if he really was good all the time? Shitty things happening in your life and in the world that are attributed to god aren’t so good and you still try to pretend he is good. But back to the point, there is no other context for that phrase but Christianity.
"He is still good," eh? Ya know, I'm reminded of something, I can't quite place it. Oh, wait a minute; here it is:
"𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝐺𝑜𝑑 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑂𝑙𝑑 𝑇𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑎𝑟𝑔𝑢𝑎𝑏𝑙𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑚𝑜𝑠𝑡 𝑢𝑛𝑝𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝑐ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑒𝑟 𝑖𝑛 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑓𝑖𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛: 𝑗𝑒𝑎𝑙𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑑 𝑜𝑓 𝑖𝑡; 𝑎 𝑝𝑒𝑡𝑡𝑦, 𝑢𝑛𝑗𝑢𝑠𝑡, 𝑢𝑛𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑔𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑜𝑙-𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑘; 𝑎 𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑑𝑖𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒, 𝑏𝑙𝑜𝑜𝑑𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡𝑦 𝑒𝑡ℎ𝑛𝑖𝑐 𝑐𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑛𝑠𝑒𝑟; 𝑎 𝑚𝑖𝑠𝑜𝑔𝑦𝑛𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑐, ℎ𝑜𝑚𝑜𝑝ℎ𝑜𝑏𝑖𝑐, 𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑡, 𝑖𝑛𝑓𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑎𝑙, 𝑔𝑒𝑛𝑜𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑎𝑙, 𝑓𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑎𝑙, 𝑝𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑙𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑙, 𝑚𝑒𝑔𝑎𝑙𝑜𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑎𝑐𝑎𝑙, 𝑠𝑎𝑑𝑜𝑚𝑎𝑠𝑜𝑐ℎ𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑐, 𝑐𝑎𝑝𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠𝑙𝑦 𝑚𝑎𝑙𝑒𝑣𝑜𝑙𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑏𝑢𝑙𝑙𝑦..."
-- Richard Dawkins, T̲h̲e̲ ̲G̲o̲d̲ ̲D̲e̲l̲u̲s̲i̲o̲n̲
If that's "good," I'll eat my hat.
Dan Barker added to the list:
Pyromaniacal, angry, merciless, curse hurling, vaccicidal, aborticidal, cannibalistic and slavemonger. Then he moved on to Jesus' less-than-sterling qualities.
For more details on this persona, visit Trump2024.com.
If they don't keep raining down their propaganda as often as possible, people will wake up and start thinking...TEH HORRAH!
There are so many forms of state sponsored atheism that it is difficult to keep track of these days. Just look at your driver's license. Not a single mention of Jesus. Not one. Atheism!!! Look at your social security number. Not one mention of the redeeming power of Christ. Just the other day I had to file a 1199-A4 to create a limited liability company to shield the profits I make from scamming old ladies from the IRS, and not once on that form did it mention the vengeful and awesome Yahweh. Atheism is all around us.
Funnily enough, drivers licenses and social security numbers were opposed by these same types of folks as the mark of the beast. As for the government business forms, we all remember the fit the nuns had over having to fill out a form to be exempt from Obamacare.
You aren’t Poeing hard enough Holytape. 😜
A local radio guy was just playing some clips (I don't know how recent) about people complaining that they weren't legally able to enjoy a couple of beers while driving home after a hard day's work.
My hospital group is religious based, I don’t like it but that’s what’s in network for my insurance. I delight in reading this blog when I’m at appointments and stuff just to quietly stick it to them for shoving their god in my face when I’m trying to feel better. What makes them think that images of a dying man on a stick will provide a sense of confidence in their healthcare?
Anyway, I got to spend yesterday morning in the emergency room discovering a fibroid in my uterus. So I read FA while I was waiting. Internet access wasn’t great so I couldn’t participate much, but it was still fun finding out about more atheists in the world.
I’m fine and it’s treatable and not too concerning. It’s very common and totally benign.
"What makes them think that images of a dying man on a stick will provide a sense of confidence in their healthcare?"
See that guy? He went to our competitors!
Good luck with treatment, glad it's nothing major. I'm about to head over for a doctor's appointment myself. Similar issue, just a minor problem that's more a nuisance than anything, but we've hit our deductible because of all the other big issues this year.
Yeah, we generally hit our deductible around June. But for some reason we keep having some bills this year. The latest insurance isn’t what we expected. But what can ya do, gotta go with what your employer offers.
Oh, you can always pay for a plan on the exchange. But, no matter how bad you think your employer's insurance is, I would put money down that the plans you can get on the exchange are worse.
In fairness, the paranoiacs had a point about SSN. The government's "oh no, this will never be used by anyone for any identification purposes" promise lasted about as long as it took to type up a one-page form.
True, but they’re now crying about the mark of the beast in vaccines or other crap. Even bar codes were thought to be the mark of the beast, still is at Hobby Lobby.
Yikes...that bizarre bar code belief...
I believe I was about six when I first heard that "mark of the beast" nonsense
spouted from the pulpit. An hour later, I was at home frantically going through all the stuff in the pantry while mom was cooking lunch - and freaking out at all the bar codes I saw on nearly everything. I can't remember how she and dad explained that one away, except for saying that it wasn't something I needed to worry about. What? Our house was Mark of the Beast Central, and I wasn't supposed to WORRY about it?!
In a few days, though, real life with school and after school reasserted itself and I sort of forgot about it after a while when nothing really bad happened to us.
They always forget it has to be made on the right hand or forehead. When we start embedding credit 'cards' in our hands, then I might believe the mark of the beast.
Somebody must have figured it would make a pretty good con. Sell the idea of "barcodes as the Mark of the Beast for merch." You had to have it on whatever you were selling, and only people with the mark on their hands or forehead cold buy it. Anything to scare people into coming to church and forking over their money.
Amazing to me now that I once believe this insane crap....and a bit surprising that it seemed to have fizzled out after a while.
An ID number makes perfect sense. Names can duplicate. There's someone in Dallas with my full name. Acting like it's some big secret is what is leading to all the identity theft. Especially since for several years the Real ID act required it in the bar code encoding on the back of your license and some states still do it.
On Tuesday I went to the DMV to renew my driver's license. I was shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that none of the forms I filled out mentioned a god. The employees who took my fingerprint and my picture neglected to read out bibble verses. And, most shocking of all, none of the 30 questions on the written exam contained a sermon. I'll get my new license in a couple of weeks (with the usual horrible picture), and it will have nothing about religious practice on the card. This situation is intolerable! (ahem.)
Hope you didn't agree to donate your organs when you die in an auto accident. Those belong to God.
I agree; leaving the DMV without your new license is intolerable!
Think it took about 2 weeks to get mine. The good thing is, unless they do something revolutionary like I suggested, I won't have to go back to ID office (DPS in Texas) for another 9 years. When it needs to be renewed in 3, I can order it online. (They require a new picture every 12 years)
I could have also said leaving the tax collectors office without your new license is intolerable.
That's the job for proselytizing elementary teachers.
Several states have In God We Trust license plates to appease those who must publicly display their beliefs.
What, those little fish thingies aren't good enough anymore?
https://www.blitzwatch.org/in-god-we-trust-license-plates
In addition to placing “In God We Trust” in public schools and on other government buildings, Project Blitz also aims to pass bills that give motorists the option of a license plate that includes “In God We Trust.”
“In God We Trust” license plates are already available in 20 states. In some states, such as Tennessee after its 2017 bill, the phrase will appear on every license plate.
Not only are these bills divisive, they also frequently help fund religious groups without requiring transparency or oversight. This creates a situation ripe for abuse with the state aiding and abetting this activity.
Color me shocked.
"I got spam email on my work account from some guy named Ryan Walters. Sounded like a religious crazy."
I do believe 'religious crazy' is redundant.
OT, did you see "Blue Beetle?" I heard it was good, but it came and went pretty quickly.
Yes. It was funny and entertaining. How representative it was of actual Latinx culture (if there is such a thing given the diverse cultures of Latin and South America) is debatable, but I enjoyed it. And I'm not surprised it came and went quickly. I'd never heard of Blue Beetle before. The theater crowd was heavily Latinx and rather full 2-3 weeks after release here in SA.
Susan Sarandon gave great villain as usual.
My in-laws visited us a couple years ago, and they brought along a stack of old comic books they picked up at a rummage sale for the kids. Mostly junk, nothing I'd ever heard of, but one was a Blue Beetle comic. I came across it again while cleaning out a few things right after the movie came out.
Blue Beetle is a very old character that's been around since 1939 and has seen 3 different versions of the superhero:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Beetle
The movie references an older Batman-esque incarnation as well as the current alien biotech symbiote.
That's nothing. I was Kaiser Bill's batman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AY30CLEJBU (Sixties weirdness at its best.)
Dan Garrett or Ted Kord? Or do they not get specific?
Or James Andrew Boyd?
River: Spoilers!
I picked up a trade paperback of the 𝘑𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘓𝘦𝘢𝘨𝘶𝘦 𝘐𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘯𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭, which was a collection of the comics from the 80s. By the end, all I knew about Blue Beetle was that he had a ship and was the teams chauffeur. I also learned nothing about who and what are Booster Gold and Mister Miracle. The highlight was Batman knocking out the Guy Gardner Green Lantern with one punch.
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.pfmcqkcxv7gwjCzIks1m3wHaFJ?pid=ImgDet&rs=1
> "OT, did you see "Blue Beetle?"
A Volkswagen movie?
> "it was good, but it came and went pretty quickly"
That's what she said.
As a Marvel fan, I avoid DCs stylings. DC/WB simply doesn't know what it's doing.
I believe that BB is the first film of the new DCU. That it disappeared quickly does not bode well for them.
But Greg Berlanti does. DC movies have been lackluster since the Michael Keaton series (I enjoyed Chris O'Donnell as Robin, but then...), but Berlanti's DC television series were pretty good.
Did his costume have nipples?
I think Berlanti's Supergirl might have shown through, but otherwise no.
I'm sure I'll pick it up at some point. I want to see Wonder Woman too, but I don't know about any of the others.
Godot does a pretty good Wonder Woman (although the costume is still ridiculous) I'm hoping Blue Beetle will hit Max soon, because I'd like to watch it again. I'm hoping the same of Barbie. From the first trailer I saw I thought it looked interesting, but after conservatives lost their shit over it, I really want to see it.
So many acronyms – so little time.
BB is one of the last of the "old" DCU. You notice it didn't get much fanfare since it was basically sent out to die.
Still a better fate than what they did to the Batgirl movie.
Pardon me for putting my two cents in, but I have to say I'd goddamn tired of hearing comic book movies called a "universe." It strikes me as a laughable attempt to make them sound more important and more substantial than they actually are. They're just a collection of silly movies, nothing more. There's a perfectly good, simple reason why The Maltese Falcon was never touted as part of the "Sam Spade Universe." Is Babes in Toyland part of the "Laurel and Hardy Universe," then? Enough already.
“The Maltese Falcon was never touted as part of the "Sam Spade Universe."”
The correct term is “Raymond Chandlerverse”
Dashiell Hammett.
Who can keep them all straight? Save it for the convention, nerd.
Booooooo! 😆
I'd respond, but right now I'm preoccupied with the Little Rascals Universe.
Always hated those. My brother was a fan.
Technically it was done under the old regime but was able to be shoehorned into the new DCCU because of its stand alone nature. Doesn’t really show what the James Gunn era will be able to do.
I’m optimistic. The Peacemaker series and the Harley Quinn animated show are significantly better than almost everything MCU since Endgame.
Why is anyone to the left of neo-Nazis always branded a radical by these asshats?
That's the harebrained way they see the world. Us/them, good/evil, black/white. If you're not an agent of God you must be an agent of Satan.
For the month of October, at least, I am an agent of Lillith.
"The out-of-state group..."
There it is again. The FFRF covers all 50 states + DC. Where was the hue and cry from cristers when that out-of-state group NOM was running from state to state trying to scuttle marriage equality before NOM finally faced its Waterloo in my state?
Moms of liberty are not locals either. Matt Walsh didn’t live in the state where he spoke at the school board - he literally rented a basement room from a friend for a dollar just to speak. Hell, his kids aren’t even in a public school anywhere. Where’s the outrage over these instances?
They’re only out of state radicals when he doesn’t agree with their stance of following the constitution.
Waterloo is in my state. In fact, I can see it right now, looking out my window, off in the distance.
: )
I didn't know you lived in Belgium 😋
Salut voisin !
I'd make a Wellington reference, but I'll leave that up to Guerillasurgeon. :)
Should I mention Marshal Blucher? *winnie*
Our local theater just did "Young Frankenstein," It was funny watching the guys in the horse costumes.
They're doing "A Christmas Story" too if you want me to get you a ticket.
Couldn't escape if you wanted to
All the way from Cedar Falls, eh? 😉
Or are you over by the Ray brothers, Mond & Mar? Hangin' in Hudson ? 😁
I'm north of CF.
Cedar Falls?!?
Slowly I turned...
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbjiKIKzY3c
There's a Waterloo in the US? Interesting – I didn't assignment on the battle of Waterloo a few years ago, and there are numerous places named after Waterloo in Britain and the Commonwealth, including a railway station just down the road from me. But I didn't think there'd be any in the US.
"There's a Waterloo in the US?"
Sure. Every time some radio station plays ABBA.
I don't think the U.S. has a single original name for a city/town. They're either Spanish, Some Native American Language, or named after somewhere in England or Germany.
Or France.
I almost put France, but all I could think of at the time was Quebec and that isn't in the U.S. After seeing your post I thought of New Orleans.
There is one nearer, in your own state. Paris.
Or Russia.
Don't think I know any of those, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Did ya forget where I live?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg,_Florida#19th_century
Moscow, Idaho sure explains a lot.
I was thinking a lot closer to home.
Does a non-native name for a practice (but not a location) count?
¿Que?
Someone needs to tell this twit Walters the difference between atheism and SECULARISM. Frankly, I'm not certain that there really is any such thing as an atheistic government. I WILL say that the government of the United States was meant to be SECULAR. By that, I mean that it was meant to be INDEPENDENT of ANY form of religion, and with that, put in a position of treating all people of all religions [edit: as well as those of NO religion] 𝗘𝗤𝗨𝗔𝗟𝗟𝗬.
Per usual, people like Walters either can't get that or don't want to get that. They want the privilege which theoretically goes with being what used to be the majority religion in the US. What he apparently is unaware of is that religious practice in the US is on the decline, whereas the nones – atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and those who are unaffiliated with ANY religion – are increasing in number on a near-daily basis.
It may well take an FFRF lawsuit to get Walters to wake up and smell the coffee, and frankly, that doesn't bother me at all.
There's no such thing as secularism to these guys; if you aren't talking Jesus in everything you do, then your actions are promoting atheism or some other religion.
It's like since the 1960s God has regressed. He used to be this big scary superhero, but fundamentalist evangelicalism has turned him into a co-dependent whiny 2-year old who needs your attention RIGHT NOW...for all values of 'right now.'
This effect has been well-documented. In Pratchett's Small Gods, Om has shrunken down to the size of a turtle as the number of his followers dwindled.
Andrew L. Seidel had it right back in 2019. Christian Nationalism is Un-American.
Anyone who embraces the concept of Christian Nationalism automatically dubs themselves traitors that spit on the US Constitution and the country's secular laws.
And we've seen what treason gets you in the modern U.S., a fund-raising tour.
We've been seeing quite a lot of people like this lately, people who swear they follow their Jesus and want to defend Christians but mostly seem to be after the power to make everyone else bend to their will. I've seen this song and dance many times, and it never ends well so far as I can tell, someone always gets sc***ed over or there's a massive scandal. Quite frankly, it's past time to take out the garbage; this isn't doing anyone any good and it's getting in the way of things that might.
I admit I'm tired. I'm also heartsick over the situations in the Ukraine and Gaza. I'm probably going to go watch a video of kittens when I get done here. At this point, I sort of wish Mr. Walters would choke on his own vitriol and get it over with, because the world has bigger problems than his grandstanding for Jesus letters would have one believe. This is also quite a bit of the reason so many people aren't going to church anymore, too; it's starting to feel like we're all always at church with all the self-righteous preaching going on all the time.
Yeah. Off to kitten videos. Take care of yourselves out there.
Kitten videos do wonders for my frame of mind. Hope you found some really adorable ones :)
And real kittens are even better. I have one curled up in my left arm as I'm typing this. It's awkward, but it's worth it.
😊
Since when has teaching math, reading, writing, home economics, social studies, language classes and other topics needed to perform in today's society become a religious issue?
As soon as some radical regressive reich-wing theofascists figured out that they could weaponize their faith to fuck with others in public schools.
A bit off point, but I'm predicting that when the dictionary wonks declare the "word of the year," their unanimous verdict will be for "weaponize."
Math) calculate how many barrels of wine jesus created then convert to amphoras.
Reading) compare the 4 gospels.
Home economics) learn to cook and weave like they did in Middle East in 1st century CE.
Social studies) compare life in Rome and in Palestine.
Language) Read 3 version of the bible in the following languages : Aramaic, Arabic, Egyptian, Greek, Latin, King James English. Give your impressions.
Reading) compare the 4 gospels.
Oh, 𝒉𝒆𝒍𝒍 𝒏𝒐!!!
If they did that, the kiddies would discover all the contradictions, like the four different versions of the resurrection.
It will be conveniently explained away as "some of the writers may have misunderstood a few of the details God revealed, but they got the gist of the story down, and that's what's important." *
*an actual explanation I heard in a church several years ago.
Math follow-up: calculate how many servings of wine a Baptist would have to refuse at the wedding to insult Jesus and the hosts.
Since about 1980, and gaining momentum every year since then.