When there is a fire and people die, make sure the judge is charge with accessory to manslaughter and negligence along with the church. For this judge should bear some responsibility for any deaths should there be a fire!
The very simple solution would have been for the church to address the zoning code violations, and get the church up to code. This is not about "anti-Christian discrimination". If a building (church or not) has code violations, it's up to the organization housed in that building to make necessary repairs.
- Improper installation of laundry facilities can lead to indoor flooding (from a washing machine) or carbon monoxide poisoning (improperly vented dryer).
- Marking exit areas is an easy fix.
- An LP cylinder for a gas grill placed inside a building will produce carbon monoxide, which can kill.
- Plastic ducts should NEVER be used with a gas dryer: major fire hazard.
- Kitchens MUST be ventilated.
Fixing this stuff is easy, low-lying fruit.
I'm a progressive Christian, and I attend a progressive church which provides active assistance to the homeless: providing meals, a place for homeless people to stay during cold weather, laundry facilities; a nurse practitioner to address health problems; a clothing bank; bus passes; helping to get people necessary IDs so they can prove who they are and get other needed services. We're already in deep winter: we're in for the long haul until at least April.
We had our kitchen, our laundry facilities, and the room where the homeless sleep checked and inspected to make sure everything was in code. Where we had to make upgrades, we made upgrades. We applied for, and received a grant to help with the upgrades and to provide services until the weather warms.
Homeless people have a hard enough life: the last thing we want to do is to kill a dozen people because we're too lazy or too inept to keep our facilities up to code!
I don't see what the problem was with Dad's Place: they could simply have addressed the zoning violations and corrected the problems. They could have applied for a grant to fix things which needed to be brought up to code. Instead, Dad's Place selfishly made this a problem about them "being persecuted" - and a judge bought into it.
If people at Dad's Place die from carbon monoxide poisoning or a fire because Charles Avell didn't address code violations and make needed repairs, then both Avell and the judge who enabled Avell's behavior should be charged with (at minimum) reckless manslaughter or (at worst) second-degree murder.
Sure, things SHOULD be dealt with according to state and local regulations ... right up to the point where Christian Privilege comes in to insist on its way or the highway. This is made worse by those officials who SHOULD be responsible for upholding those same rules and regulations, doing their damnedest to wriggle their way around them, because religion. Time and again, we see religion getting unwarranted favoritism, and occasionally we see the untoward consequences of that favoritism.
Yet the essential message has yet to come through ... and it may not until someone gets hurt.
And you'll find absolutely NO disagreement coming from me on your comments!
It's why we had the inspections done, and got our facility brought up to code before we took in people who needed shelter. That's basic human decency -- something which seems to have flown out the window with Trump, MAGA and Christian Nationalism.
The key to the story is that all these fixes cost money. They should have NEVER been able to set up shop in the first place in that zoning district. The problem has now snowballed out of control and is downright dangerous.
Totally agree. There were several ways that Dad's Place and Charles Avell could have addressed those problems, including getting a zoning variance AHEAD of time and applying for grants to address the violations (lack of ventilation, LP gas grill in an enclosed area, no hood over the stove, plastic ductwork coming from a gas dryer, etc.). I know, from direct experience, that there IS money out there to help fix these kinds of problems; but one has to PLAN AHEAD, address, and remediate problems before they reach the level of legal action.
An LP gas grill and plastic ductwork from a gas dryer isn't going to end up well. I think we're going to be hearing more from Dad's Place -- as a mass casualty event.
They're acting like privileged, white evangelical Christians who don't have to follow the same laws and same rules which everybody else is expected to abide by.
I'm so completely on board with this, with y'all: I have gotten MORE than tired of privileged, evangelical Christian bullshit.
(Just for the record: I've gotten death threats from evangelical Christians after I've stood up to them and confronted them on their shenanigans. Any more, I just blow it off. The vast majority of them are keyboard warriors, but absolute chickenshit in person.)
Once again we have a poor innocent Christian being persecuted for his faith by the Godless left. The preacher is, of course, as pure and innocent as a new born babe. Zoning laws are there to protect people and property. Is this the only possible solution this guy could find to address homelessness? Looks to me like he's more interested in playing the victim than solving an actual problem.
What I’m getting from this and other recent decisions, although I can’t think of one specifically right now, is that our judiciary is enabling religions to do anything they want as long as they claim it is part of their religious beliefs. “Housing homeless is part of my religion so zoning regs don’t apply to me.” How long until “Owning people as property is part of my religion.”
This is the dangerous mindset. "Oh, it's religion and they mean so well. We don't HAVE to observe all those niggling rules and regulations so that they can do some good."
And again, I have to wonder what would have been the reaction to an untoward event.
City: We want you to help the homeless. We just want to make sure they don't burn to death if there's a fire.
Church: Telling us to follow the rules is persecution cuz you hate Jesus! Besides, if those homeless people burn up in a fire they probably deserved it for being lazy evil sinners for being homeless in the first place.
When they aren't actively abusing people, they make a big show of pretending to care, and any attempt to get them to follow rules that 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘦𝘭𝘴𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘰𝘸 gets them persecution points from the rubes.
And now, thanks to Christian Fucking Privilege, a judge wants to take extra steps to ensure religious toes aren't stepped on. Nevermind that that was already being done, because "If the business chooses not to comply, a fire inspector can and will bar the doors. We chose not to do this, specifically because we did not want to violate the church’s right to religious freedom."
Can we please, please, 𝗽𝗹𝗲𝗮𝘀𝗲 end Christian Fucking Privilege now?
If/when a fire breaks out and kills a lot of people he's trying to help, Avell will wish he'd listened to the city officials and comply to their safety demands. He's asking for it every time he refuses to fix it so that the homeless will live there without worrying about fires breaking out and destroying the shelter with them in it.
As someone who has worked for some time in the architecture industry, there isn’t any special exemptions to zoning laws, fire codes, or regulations for anyone no matter what religion they are or what their purpose is. The city made a terrible mistake from the beginning by allowing it to slide and now they are learning the hard way.
Once again, we have city officials jumping through hoops, trying to deal with a religious person who cannot be bothered with little inconsequential things like fire codes and occupancy regulations.
One wonders at the tune he would have sung had their been an actual fire and the fallout from that.
It was never about helping the homeless, it was about gaining converts. Safety is a secondary issue that this preacher wants to deal with. He is more concerned about appearing to help the homeless than actually protecting the lives of the homeless by having proper fire safety measures in his makeshift church. I am not sure I said that right, so I hope that everyone understands what I mean!
Zoning laws and fire codes are put in place for a reason and it’s called safety. What we can be sure of is that folks like these don’t care about safety or people’s lives. Again, the more important question is when are we going to actually make use of government to improve people’s lives and strengthen not dilute the safety nets put in place for this very reason. Nobody wants delusional people taking care of them at their most vulnerable because it’s the only option.
So, your religious beliefs can be used so you do not have to participate in a functioning society, government or any other situation that you deem infringes on your religious rights? Gotcha. That should exempt a whole bunch of people from A LOT of things they find inconvenient and burdensome. Off to set up a make shift animal shelter/rescue for cats that my HOA won't be able to shut down as they are sacred creatures revered for luck, fertility and protection.
I am still uneasy with this case*. DM and me could have ended homeless, and if we had to choose between a potential carbon monoxide poisoning or fire, and cold, we would have chosen the former.
* Both are wrong in my book, the "church" by not respecting safety regulations, the city by letting churches bear the burden and not offering a secure and secular solution.
When there is a fire and people die, make sure the judge is charge with accessory to manslaughter and negligence along with the church. For this judge should bear some responsibility for any deaths should there be a fire!
The very simple solution would have been for the church to address the zoning code violations, and get the church up to code. This is not about "anti-Christian discrimination". If a building (church or not) has code violations, it's up to the organization housed in that building to make necessary repairs.
- Improper installation of laundry facilities can lead to indoor flooding (from a washing machine) or carbon monoxide poisoning (improperly vented dryer).
- Marking exit areas is an easy fix.
- An LP cylinder for a gas grill placed inside a building will produce carbon monoxide, which can kill.
- Plastic ducts should NEVER be used with a gas dryer: major fire hazard.
- Kitchens MUST be ventilated.
Fixing this stuff is easy, low-lying fruit.
I'm a progressive Christian, and I attend a progressive church which provides active assistance to the homeless: providing meals, a place for homeless people to stay during cold weather, laundry facilities; a nurse practitioner to address health problems; a clothing bank; bus passes; helping to get people necessary IDs so they can prove who they are and get other needed services. We're already in deep winter: we're in for the long haul until at least April.
We had our kitchen, our laundry facilities, and the room where the homeless sleep checked and inspected to make sure everything was in code. Where we had to make upgrades, we made upgrades. We applied for, and received a grant to help with the upgrades and to provide services until the weather warms.
Homeless people have a hard enough life: the last thing we want to do is to kill a dozen people because we're too lazy or too inept to keep our facilities up to code!
I don't see what the problem was with Dad's Place: they could simply have addressed the zoning violations and corrected the problems. They could have applied for a grant to fix things which needed to be brought up to code. Instead, Dad's Place selfishly made this a problem about them "being persecuted" - and a judge bought into it.
If people at Dad's Place die from carbon monoxide poisoning or a fire because Charles Avell didn't address code violations and make needed repairs, then both Avell and the judge who enabled Avell's behavior should be charged with (at minimum) reckless manslaughter or (at worst) second-degree murder.
Sure, things SHOULD be dealt with according to state and local regulations ... right up to the point where Christian Privilege comes in to insist on its way or the highway. This is made worse by those officials who SHOULD be responsible for upholding those same rules and regulations, doing their damnedest to wriggle their way around them, because religion. Time and again, we see religion getting unwarranted favoritism, and occasionally we see the untoward consequences of that favoritism.
Yet the essential message has yet to come through ... and it may not until someone gets hurt.
And you'll find absolutely NO disagreement coming from me on your comments!
It's why we had the inspections done, and got our facility brought up to code before we took in people who needed shelter. That's basic human decency -- something which seems to have flown out the window with Trump, MAGA and Christian Nationalism.
The key to the story is that all these fixes cost money. They should have NEVER been able to set up shop in the first place in that zoning district. The problem has now snowballed out of control and is downright dangerous.
Totally agree. There were several ways that Dad's Place and Charles Avell could have addressed those problems, including getting a zoning variance AHEAD of time and applying for grants to address the violations (lack of ventilation, LP gas grill in an enclosed area, no hood over the stove, plastic ductwork coming from a gas dryer, etc.). I know, from direct experience, that there IS money out there to help fix these kinds of problems; but one has to PLAN AHEAD, address, and remediate problems before they reach the level of legal action.
An LP gas grill and plastic ductwork from a gas dryer isn't going to end up well. I think we're going to be hearing more from Dad's Place -- as a mass casualty event.
Absolutely
Thank you for what you do. Screw THEM with a saguaro for what they are doing.
They're acting like privileged, white evangelical Christians who don't have to follow the same laws and same rules which everybody else is expected to abide by.
I'm so completely on board with this, with y'all: I have gotten MORE than tired of privileged, evangelical Christian bullshit.
(Just for the record: I've gotten death threats from evangelical Christians after I've stood up to them and confronted them on their shenanigans. Any more, I just blow it off. The vast majority of them are keyboard warriors, but absolute chickenshit in person.)
You just described all of MAGA.
Once again we have a poor innocent Christian being persecuted for his faith by the Godless left. The preacher is, of course, as pure and innocent as a new born babe. Zoning laws are there to protect people and property. Is this the only possible solution this guy could find to address homelessness? Looks to me like he's more interested in playing the victim than solving an actual problem.
What I’m getting from this and other recent decisions, although I can’t think of one specifically right now, is that our judiciary is enabling religions to do anything they want as long as they claim it is part of their religious beliefs. “Housing homeless is part of my religion so zoning regs don’t apply to me.” How long until “Owning people as property is part of my religion.”
This is the dangerous mindset. "Oh, it's religion and they mean so well. We don't HAVE to observe all those niggling rules and regulations so that they can do some good."
And again, I have to wonder what would have been the reaction to an untoward event.
Hey, Avell...
Your scripture tells followers to obey all earthly laws and earthly authorities. Why do you rebel?
They only read that verse when the earthly laws are made by their buddies to cater to them.
Render unto Caesar...
Would you rather burn in poorly constructed church or would you rather burn in hell?
Hell. Poorly constructed churches exist.
I would personally take hell too. If it did exist, the house band would be amazing.
In heaven there is no beer…………….
...That's why we drink it here...
City: We want you to help the homeless. We just want to make sure they don't burn to death if there's a fire.
Church: Telling us to follow the rules is persecution cuz you hate Jesus! Besides, if those homeless people burn up in a fire they probably deserved it for being lazy evil sinners for being homeless in the first place.
When they aren't actively abusing people, they make a big show of pretending to care, and any attempt to get them to follow rules that 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘦𝘭𝘴𝘦 𝘩𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘰𝘸 gets them persecution points from the rubes.
And now, thanks to Christian Fucking Privilege, a judge wants to take extra steps to ensure religious toes aren't stepped on. Nevermind that that was already being done, because "If the business chooses not to comply, a fire inspector can and will bar the doors. We chose not to do this, specifically because we did not want to violate the church’s right to religious freedom."
Can we please, please, 𝗽𝗹𝗲𝗮𝘀𝗲 end Christian Fucking Privilege now?
If/when a fire breaks out and kills a lot of people he's trying to help, Avell will wish he'd listened to the city officials and comply to their safety demands. He's asking for it every time he refuses to fix it so that the homeless will live there without worrying about fires breaking out and destroying the shelter with them in it.
I don't think he will wish he had complied. He will mumble something about "God's will" and continue to believe that 𝘩𝘦 is the victim.
He will blame someone else.
As someone who has worked for some time in the architecture industry, there isn’t any special exemptions to zoning laws, fire codes, or regulations for anyone no matter what religion they are or what their purpose is. The city made a terrible mistake from the beginning by allowing it to slide and now they are learning the hard way.
Once again, we have city officials jumping through hoops, trying to deal with a religious person who cannot be bothered with little inconsequential things like fire codes and occupancy regulations.
One wonders at the tune he would have sung had their been an actual fire and the fallout from that.
Another day, another xtian scumbag getting granted unwarranted privileges because he has an imaginary friend.
It was never about helping the homeless, it was about gaining converts. Safety is a secondary issue that this preacher wants to deal with. He is more concerned about appearing to help the homeless than actually protecting the lives of the homeless by having proper fire safety measures in his makeshift church. I am not sure I said that right, so I hope that everyone understands what I mean!
Zoning laws and fire codes are put in place for a reason and it’s called safety. What we can be sure of is that folks like these don’t care about safety or people’s lives. Again, the more important question is when are we going to actually make use of government to improve people’s lives and strengthen not dilute the safety nets put in place for this very reason. Nobody wants delusional people taking care of them at their most vulnerable because it’s the only option.
So, your religious beliefs can be used so you do not have to participate in a functioning society, government or any other situation that you deem infringes on your religious rights? Gotcha. That should exempt a whole bunch of people from A LOT of things they find inconvenient and burdensome. Off to set up a make shift animal shelter/rescue for cats that my HOA won't be able to shut down as they are sacred creatures revered for luck, fertility and protection.
I am still uneasy with this case*. DM and me could have ended homeless, and if we had to choose between a potential carbon monoxide poisoning or fire, and cold, we would have chosen the former.
* Both are wrong in my book, the "church" by not respecting safety regulations, the city by letting churches bear the burden and not offering a secure and secular solution.
But but but I thought Christians were the most persecuted people IN THE WORLD! They wouldn't be bearing false witness, now would they?