If God wants to talk to me, he can show up anytime he wants and do so. In the mean time, I have no use for the people claiming to speak on his behalf. This is due in no small part to the fact they do not speak with anything close to a unified voice. Nothing is ever going to convince me the genuine word of God would be subject to never-ending debate. Especially so when that debate has led to horrific consequences for humanity. Through all that blood letting, the Christian God remained the hide-and-seek champion of the universe.
Well, maybe not during dinner time. Or when I'm in the bathroom. Or when I'm having some "special " alone time. If he could call first, that would be great.
I have RoboKiller on my phone and it does transcribe my voicemails but the transcription is sometimes garbled and I have to listen to the voicemail anyway.
The very fact that a minister or scholar or anyone attempts to interpret or otherwise explain the "word of God" is an admission that God is hopelessly poor at simple communication.
I have long been baffled by the idea an all powerful deity who would will the universe into existence could not make himself understood when it came to the most important message imaginable. The entire edifice of Christianity rests on a very weak foundation. That and then having waited at least a hundred thousand years to pass the message along to a barbaric tribe in a remote corner of the world, who didn't know where the sun went at night.
If Yahweh has changed his mind regarding the LGBTQ+ community, he sure has been mum about it. One would think that, after all the sturm und drang that the Catholic and evangelical churches have made about the issue, that the old boy could finally open his pie hole and give us the word that he goofed about Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
Funny thing, though: he HASN'T. And yet again, we have some guy claiming to speak for this deity that all of a sudden, Yahweh is all chill about us gay folk. And he knows this HOW, exactly?
Some time back, someone defined "theology" as a field of study with no object, to which I say, "BINGO!" Here we have yet one more hotshot, talking out of his ass about something that doesn't exist, can't be demonstrated to exist, and yet seems to have ALL SORTS OF OPINIONS regarding everything from sin to sex. It's beyond foolish.
And we have better things to do than to pay attention to such charlatans.
I was thinking the same thing, especially when I read: "They argue that God has already gone on ahead of our debates and expanded his grace to people of different sexualities."
But God is infallible, how can this be? Could it be that Christians made God in THEIR image and when they "expanded" their minds, just coincidentally, SO DOES GOD?
A friend of mine met Shaq once, he said he was a great guy!
My friend ( a licensed boat captain) took Shaq out on a boat he was thinking of buying. Shaq gave him one of his basketball shoes to say thanks. Biggest shoe (size 14) I've ever seen in my life. :)
Your comment is priceless and 💯spot on. As an atheist forced to take courses in Hermeneutics in college, I can tell you in sophisticated terms… “Christian theology is pure bullshit”. And on the Justice scale… throughout the ages… Christianity has done much more harm than good. And… owning to my limited vocabulary, “much more harm than good”… is an understatement of monumental proportions. Where are Gore Vidal and Christopher Hitchens when they are so sorely needed?
Thanks. it always amazes me how much a certain class of so-called Christian has to explain their holy book so that it makes any kind of sense whatsoever. That should be the clue to them that they're making it all up. You would think that the infinite creator of the entire infinite universe would have better communication skills.
There was a time when black men could not hold the "priesthood" in the LDS Church based on church doctrine. This created problems for their missionaries in Africa. So the head of the church had a prophecy one day and from that point on black people no longer had the mark of Cain. Interesting how that works.
These received truths can be changed at will. I remember as a lad when eating meat on Fridays instead of fish was a mortal sin--meaning you were destined for hell. This stupidity held on for years, and suddenly the Church changed its mind and made it venal.
When I was at university my fraternity always had fish on Fridays, but I hung out with a Jewish friend who would invite me to his fraternity for steak. Wonderful.
Oh they actually have a 'prophet' who also says you can't vote for a democratic party candidate and be in good standing. I particularly despise those grifters.
First, the vast majority of Christians say God disapproves of gays, and that's clearly the right way to read scripture.
Then, some think he disapproves and some don't.
Then, most think he's okay with gays.
Finally, the vast majority of Christians will say God has always approved of gays, that's clearly the right way to read scripture, and those quaint historical bigots you bring up were never the mainstream view. Pshaw.
We're about at step 2, but I think we'll see the 'we have always been at war with Eastasia' step 4 in under 40 years.
actually, FWIW, there are at least three verses in the Old Testament that say "God changed his mind." Can't say I understand it, but that's what it says. My larger reading of the Bible is that God's relationship with mankind seems to change over the centuries. One example is, if you read the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus takes the Ten Commandments and raises the bar, for instance saying that refraining from murder is not enough, we must love our enemies.
"Poor in spirit", per Kenneth Bailey (Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes), should be read to mean having a humble and contrite heart. He suggests that there are several times when people tend to mourn: when someone dies, over the state of the world, or we can mourn for our own sin. All of these are good. The last can often be the beginning of changing your life. Being "meek" today has a sense of being picked on, but in ancient times, it meant having a quiet strength.
There are a number of good books on the Sermon in general and the Beatitudes in particular. I like Bailey's for this, his take on a number of difficult parables and several other areas where modern American culture misses the point that Jesus' audience would have gotten.
The interpretation of the Beatitudes is spot on correct......people just superficially read words, they don't dissect anything. Therefore they don't question anything.
I also ordered Dan Barker's book...... I've never heard of a pastor leaving his church becoming an atheist. I look forward to reading it! And learning more talking points when I have to deal with religious relatives and general public. Lol
But Christianity is a conglomerate of institutions. Right? And the leaders of those institutions, from Pope to Bishop to Fundamentalist Pastors, set policy and regularly preach misogyny and homophobia. Am I wrong? Because those are the “Official” policies of the corrupt Christian Institutions and their hierarchy. Who, by the way, are a major political force, yet don’t pay taxes. That in itself tells you Christianity is a scam. If the Christian Churches were Jesus Christ honest, they would admit to their political influence and voluntarily agree to pay taxes. Is it any wonder Trump sells bibles.
"For the sake of those legitimately impeded, confessors can commute both the work prescribed and the conditions required (except, obviously, detachment from even venial sin). Indulgences can always be applied either to oneself or to the souls of the deceased, but they cannot be applied to other persons living on earth." --EWTN, best Catholics ever
His son, or a grandchild are LGBTQ and he’s seen how his past opinions affect them.
Don’t worry, he’ll be ostracized and othered for this. The folks that respected him before will only double down on their hatreds and exile him, probably even burn his books. But they’ll do it out of love.
That is often how it works. Having friends who came out and forming friendships with people who were already out did much more to hasten my own moral growth than the arguments did. The arguments were right, but the relationships helped me hear them.
Nah, this guy isn’t a grifter. I remember coming across him back in the 90s when I was more interested in this stuff. He was one of the major scholars studying the NT, but that was back when even many lay Christians read real books written by scholars and didn’t just watch YouTube and TikTok videos made by fascists and crackpots.
He will probably be shunned for his new inclusive position and it's certainly not enough considering trans people are refused the healthcare they need in some states but if some on the fence read his book and change their minds, and then lend the book and help change more minds...
I'm 71. This dude is 74. I figured this out in the fucking *1970s*, when I was still in my teens, so he's got no excuse. (Oh. Right. He's a big-brained professor. Is that an excuse?) Bergoglio, the current pope, doesn't have any excuse for his/his buddies latest nonsense either. Age doesn't get you off the hook when you harm people with your pronouncements about Hated Others.
Yesterday the demon-spawn pope was on TV spouting yet another hate-filled screed against LGBTQ and Trans people. Is it time we start burning these doddering hate mongering shitgibbons at their beloved stakes.
Yes, I read an article about Bergoglio's latest nonsense. To quote from a congresscritter in the 1950s, "Have you no shame?" He, BTW , has never said nada nor taken responsibility even for his own crimes (eg, in Argentina in the 1970s), so to assume he's allofasudden gonna change his shitgibbon spots--no, don't think so. I sometimes wish I believed that the Xtian hell was a thing, for people like that.
The only reason anyone considers Pope Fluffy "progressive" is because his immediate predecessor was evil incarnate; "𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢𝘴 𝘶𝘯𝘳𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘸𝘧𝘶𝘭 𝘢𝘴 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘗𝘢𝘭𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘦" is such a low bar to clear that even an earthworm couldn't wriggle under it.
DM's grandmother would be between 113 and 124. She figured out homosexuality was not a dirty disease in the 1930's. And politically she was between French right and center right.
Hard to believe all the Golden Girls are gone (Betty White was the last). When Estelle Getty took off her makeup, wig and senior citizen clothing, she was actually the age of the other three.
One of the things science and religion have in common is that they both routinely revise and update their conclusions. Science tends to do so when new evidence is presented, though certainly social norms and pressures contribute to when and how science generates new conclusions. Religions generally revise and update their guidance when the societies around them put sufficient pressure on them and younger generations insist that new ideas be integrated.
What is astounding to me is the relative certainty and confidence that religious leaders profess in-between the reformations. They will look you straight in the eye and tell you that their current conclusions are irrefutable, derived from God, and will remain true for all time. Their confidence is strange, and unearned. Even a brief look at history reminds us that they will change their conclusions when they decide it is necessary to improve their social standing.
Full disclosure: I haven't read the book, I won't read the book, and I never heard of the guy until this article, although I may merely have forgotten that I heard of him.
But I read the story, and what struck me immediately about it was that he wrote it with his son, Christopher. And I immediately knew that this was the key to whatever had gone on. So I did just a little bit of digging and Sure enough, we find out that Christopher is a Pastor in the Presbyterian Church USA, one of the heretic churches that embraced gay people 15 or 20 years ago. This was the first citation I found, something called protestia. And sure enough, their splash page is just loaded with their upset over sex and gender, to the exclusion of just about everything else. So it wasn't surprising that they put on their big boy pants and were able to figure this much out all on their own:
"Put another way, it is almost a certainty that a family member has come out as LGBTQ, a revelation that served as the catalyst for a change in conviction. This is the pattern we see over and over, from Andy Stanley to Jen Hatmaker to David Gushee to Danny Cortez. It wasn’t because these two men learned to read the Bible better or discovered superior scholarship.
Instead, we would almost guarantee someone near to them came out as gay or trans and they’ve made this theological shift because they love that person more than Christ, which is ironic because, in doing so, they actually hate them both.
Mark it."
My first thought was that it was Christopher that had come out, but maybe not. But most likely somebody came out, and somebody finally started to be conscious enough to realize the extreme damage they were inflicting someone they loved. Because that's what it takes for so many conservatives to change their mind on any of their culture war issues: someone they love is now the enemy, and it is ever so easy to be a culture warrior if it doesn't affect you personally.
It is boringly predictable. Any changes to doctrine, or prejudice disguised as doctrine that they do not agree with, must be from the devil, must be mere humanity, must be anything but God trying to communicate to them that they have it wrong. The one thing that they can be sure of is that God will always agree with them, for are they not made in his image, and vice versa?
This is what they cannot and will not understand. Being a culture warrior, being a religious bigot, it's simply another exhibition of religious megalomania: I am special and you are not, God loves me more than he loves you, God will do exactly what I tell him too because he loves me more than he loves you, and am I not special? They cannot see the truism that I have been stating clearly for nearly 50 years: you cannot reach people who are irretrievably poisoned because they believe everything they think. You cannot reach people who are irretrievably poisoned by hate, fear, ignorance, stupidity, toxic religious belief (above all!), bad parenting, culture war mentality, traumatic childhood experiences, despite, An unwarranted faith in an imaginary superiority, And above all, their own dark issues.
That is the very definition of the word IRRETRIEVABLY.
So, good for Hayes. Apparently, he decided to be a better human being than he has been for the last 30 years. Unfortunately, he couldn't figure it out 30 years ago when it would've done a great deal more good.
Yeah how does that "god changed his mind" thing work? Is god all-knowing and all-perfect? How then did god not realize he was wrong before? How can god ever be wrong? Whatever. Just glad to see a change of heart. I suspect a beloved friend or family member came out as gay. Can't have them going off to hell, can we.
Hays is late. We ALWAYS have good weather for our Pride Parades here. Meanwhile, YHVH is flattening yet another trailer park in the bible belt. Guess we know who the biblical deity truly favors.
Change is coming! Even in my small Southern university city, the weather has always been nice for the annual Gay Pride Parade.
(Tornadoes usually move on to the Midwestern bible belt by June.} The city closes Main Street, and quite a few vendors are starting to set up. This happens in Jonesboro, Arkansas!
You'd think that, given where I live, it would rain once in a while where the 'good weather' usually starts after the 4th of July. Nope. Always blue, sunny and warm.
If you were a god, and you wanted hang out in one the most awesome cities in the world, wouldn't pick Seattle ? And of course, a god with the power to find car keys and win football games could contro; the weather!
Yes, it is amazing how god, in charge of an infinite and expanding universe, can find the time to micromanage our affairs on our dust mote of a planet.
Here it's oppressively hot and humid, the line interminable, and the ticket prices average. The booths are mostly corporate and the fence makes the park look more like a prison yard. Oh and the parade happens after sundown.
Very few corporate types have ever heard of Jonesboro, it is really a sweet gathering of counter culture types, people from the University, and the die hard liberals
That always amused me in a grim sort of way. Some geezer in a flattened trailer park in Oklahoma tells a reported that he prayed all night as the tornado bore down, and god heard his prayers and spared his trailer. My reaction was, I guess god wasn't so keen on the neighbors!
"Dec. 15, 1973, the 15-member board of the American Psychiatric Association had voted unanimously, with two abstentions, that homosexuality should no longer be considered a mental illness." It took the APA until 1973; I didn't applaud them then and I'm sure as hell not going to applaud this hateful, know-it-all so-call expert on the bible. These folks remind me of the ex-Republicans who help get us in the political mess we are in today, that want us all now to bend down and kiss their enlightened ass. How dare they!?!?
Yes, people can change, I have many times in my almost 81 years, but never on the gut-level ethical rules we all try to live by and that I learned very young. So, this 'scholar' is saying God changed his mind, so he now can? WOW! Did he have a conversation with the man upstairs? His arrogance is showing as bright as the North star.
As an older lesbian, I went through some very hard times in my life because of arrogant people like this guy. I was never in the closet, I refused and to no thanks to the likes of him, but to the hard fights me and my fellow LGBT+ folks fought things are better. Now, because of the hateful Republicans and ultra-religious right things just might get harder again, and I will fight them again until I can fight no more. My heart and mind will be refreshed of all the LGBT+ folks that have been hurt and even died by their hateful voices and hands. Damn them all.
How could a being who is omniscient of all events, past and future, change his mind? That would mean knew all along that he was going to change his mind, but intentionally waited until a specific time to do so.
Reason #4,473,879 to be an atheist: not having to sit in a closet and twiddle your thumbs waiting for religious scholars named Dick to finally, seven and a half decades into their lives, have a grand revelation and give you permission to be who you already were.
I’m wondering if the celibacy thing that Hays mentioned (not a fate worse than death, uh, huh, tell that to a horny teen) is now off the table as well. Does masturbation now get a pass from being hell-bound too?
If God wants to talk to me, he can show up anytime he wants and do so. In the mean time, I have no use for the people claiming to speak on his behalf. This is due in no small part to the fact they do not speak with anything close to a unified voice. Nothing is ever going to convince me the genuine word of God would be subject to never-ending debate. Especially so when that debate has led to horrific consequences for humanity. Through all that blood letting, the Christian God remained the hide-and-seek champion of the universe.
" he can show up anytime he wants and do so."
Well, maybe not during dinner time. Or when I'm in the bathroom. Or when I'm having some "special " alone time. If he could call first, that would be great.
Hello?ZZZ?
THIS IS GOD. I SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING. STOP IT NOW.
"The look upon your face made my swollen glad diminish
So I said "close the door, I really wanna finish." "
You, sir, have a dirty mind.
Your point is?
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d51e082271c2aea93b17ec74b0267e868af69401353412b024e34c5196536f03.png
That's funny.
But I can see sauron's point. Hobbits are small and hairy. Now elves...
If it gets stuck for more than 4 hours go to the ER.
...making toast? Sure, if it really bothers you.
Is that what they're calling it now? Oooooh, something's gonna be burning honey, and it won't be the toast.
Uh, oh. My bush is burning!
Bush is so 80's! I'm a nudist and they are really rare in our clubs.
A200. There is the ticket
I don't like Kate Bush's voice but burning her is exaggerated.
I would need a text first. since their god is not on my contact list, it would go straight to voice mail.
Your phone doesn't transcribe your voicemails (assuming its not a scammer which records 20-40 seconds of silence)
I have RoboKiller on my phone and it does transcribe my voicemails but the transcription is sometimes garbled and I have to listen to the voicemail anyway.
The fact that there is a transcription at least tells me it was a human, and it's reasonably accurate enough to get the message.
The only problem is it's Google Fi, which probably means they're being data-mined.
The very fact that a minister or scholar or anyone attempts to interpret or otherwise explain the "word of God" is an admission that God is hopelessly poor at simple communication.
I have long been baffled by the idea an all powerful deity who would will the universe into existence could not make himself understood when it came to the most important message imaginable. The entire edifice of Christianity rests on a very weak foundation. That and then having waited at least a hundred thousand years to pass the message along to a barbaric tribe in a remote corner of the world, who didn't know where the sun went at night.
The Old Testament: God’s UNCHANGING word.
The New Testament: God’s REVISED unchanging word.
Yes, IMHO pinning those compilations together made no sense, as one contradicts much of the other.
Minor details.
Well said. 👏🏻
If Yahweh has changed his mind regarding the LGBTQ+ community, he sure has been mum about it. One would think that, after all the sturm und drang that the Catholic and evangelical churches have made about the issue, that the old boy could finally open his pie hole and give us the word that he goofed about Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
Funny thing, though: he HASN'T. And yet again, we have some guy claiming to speak for this deity that all of a sudden, Yahweh is all chill about us gay folk. And he knows this HOW, exactly?
Some time back, someone defined "theology" as a field of study with no object, to which I say, "BINGO!" Here we have yet one more hotshot, talking out of his ass about something that doesn't exist, can't be demonstrated to exist, and yet seems to have ALL SORTS OF OPINIONS regarding everything from sin to sex. It's beyond foolish.
And we have better things to do than to pay attention to such charlatans.
I was thinking the same thing, especially when I read: "They argue that God has already gone on ahead of our debates and expanded his grace to people of different sexualities."
But God is infallible, how can this be? Could it be that Christians made God in THEIR image and when they "expanded" their minds, just coincidentally, SO DOES GOD?
I'm gobsmacked...
Their indoctrination prevents them from connecting that last pair of dots.
The neurons in their brain that make that connection rotted generations ago!
It gets severed and blocked when they’re inducted into their cult.
I have no doubt that man created god in its own image. And what a disaster that has been.
When men realized that religion gave them power over the ignorant masses, it was all over.
THAT’S NOT WHAT INFALLIBLE MEANS!!!11!!11!!!!!
You are right. Infallible is when popes dig up the corpse of their predecessor to sue them for being wrong about minor doctrinal points 😇
I'm still a bit traumatized that the St Peter's in Vatican city has a mummy pope. I mean WTF?
https://images.app.goo.gl/FwG95Zfy5G2ZrZur6
Shaquille O'Neal was infallible. He hardly got any calls.
A friend of mine met Shaq once, he said he was a great guy!
My friend ( a licensed boat captain) took Shaq out on a boat he was thinking of buying. Shaq gave him one of his basketball shoes to say thanks. Biggest shoe (size 14) I've ever seen in my life. :)
Hermeneutics: the exquisitely fine art of getting your holy book to say exactly what you need it to.
Bible Study: Having your pastor point out all the verses that justify your prejudices (and ignoring all the rest).
Church: Having your pastor tell you what to think.
Your comment is priceless and 💯spot on. As an atheist forced to take courses in Hermeneutics in college, I can tell you in sophisticated terms… “Christian theology is pure bullshit”. And on the Justice scale… throughout the ages… Christianity has done much more harm than good. And… owning to my limited vocabulary, “much more harm than good”… is an understatement of monumental proportions. Where are Gore Vidal and Christopher Hitchens when they are so sorely needed?
Thanks. it always amazes me how much a certain class of so-called Christian has to explain their holy book so that it makes any kind of sense whatsoever. That should be the clue to them that they're making it all up. You would think that the infinite creator of the entire infinite universe would have better communication skills.
So when did God change his mind and did he release all the people he sent to hell for being LGBTQ+ and properly compensate them for his actions?
There was a time when black men could not hold the "priesthood" in the LDS Church based on church doctrine. This created problems for their missionaries in Africa. So the head of the church had a prophecy one day and from that point on black people no longer had the mark of Cain. Interesting how that works.
These received truths can be changed at will. I remember as a lad when eating meat on Fridays instead of fish was a mortal sin--meaning you were destined for hell. This stupidity held on for years, and suddenly the Church changed its mind and made it venal.
Yep. I remember those Friday's. We had to eat Chef Boyardee spaghetti. Somehow we survived.
When I was at university my fraternity always had fish on Fridays, but I hung out with a Jewish friend who would invite me to his fraternity for steak. Wonderful.
Oh they actually have a 'prophet' who also says you can't vote for a democratic party candidate and be in good standing. I particularly despise those grifters.
God, of course, never changes his mind.
First, the vast majority of Christians say God disapproves of gays, and that's clearly the right way to read scripture.
Then, some think he disapproves and some don't.
Then, most think he's okay with gays.
Finally, the vast majority of Christians will say God has always approved of gays, that's clearly the right way to read scripture, and those quaint historical bigots you bring up were never the mainstream view. Pshaw.
We're about at step 2, but I think we'll see the 'we have always been at war with Eastasia' step 4 in under 40 years.
actually, FWIW, there are at least three verses in the Old Testament that say "God changed his mind." Can't say I understand it, but that's what it says. My larger reading of the Bible is that God's relationship with mankind seems to change over the centuries. One example is, if you read the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus takes the Ten Commandments and raises the bar, for instance saying that refraining from murder is not enough, we must love our enemies.
The Beatitudes? Not so hot. Here's the FFRFs Dan Barker's take
https://rosarubicondior.blogspot.com/2012/08/matthews-bad-beatitudes.html
"Poor in spirit", per Kenneth Bailey (Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes), should be read to mean having a humble and contrite heart. He suggests that there are several times when people tend to mourn: when someone dies, over the state of the world, or we can mourn for our own sin. All of these are good. The last can often be the beginning of changing your life. Being "meek" today has a sense of being picked on, but in ancient times, it meant having a quiet strength.
There are a number of good books on the Sermon in general and the Beatitudes in particular. I like Bailey's for this, his take on a number of difficult parables and several other areas where modern American culture misses the point that Jesus' audience would have gotten.
Great article
Thanks. Been posting it for years. :)
The interpretation of the Beatitudes is spot on correct......people just superficially read words, they don't dissect anything. Therefore they don't question anything.
I also ordered Dan Barker's book...... I've never heard of a pastor leaving his church becoming an atheist. I look forward to reading it! And learning more talking points when I have to deal with religious relatives and general public. Lol
But Christianity is a conglomerate of institutions. Right? And the leaders of those institutions, from Pope to Bishop to Fundamentalist Pastors, set policy and regularly preach misogyny and homophobia. Am I wrong? Because those are the “Official” policies of the corrupt Christian Institutions and their hierarchy. Who, by the way, are a major political force, yet don’t pay taxes. That in itself tells you Christianity is a scam. If the Christian Churches were Jesus Christ honest, they would admit to their political influence and voluntarily agree to pay taxes. Is it any wonder Trump sells bibles.
I think you need to pay money for that.
"For the sake of those legitimately impeded, confessors can commute both the work prescribed and the conditions required (except, obviously, detachment from even venial sin). Indulgences can always be applied either to oneself or to the souls of the deceased, but they cannot be applied to other persons living on earth." --EWTN, best Catholics ever
His son, or a grandchild are LGBTQ and he’s seen how his past opinions affect them.
Don’t worry, he’ll be ostracized and othered for this. The folks that respected him before will only double down on their hatreds and exile him, probably even burn his books. But they’ll do it out of love.
“His son, or a grandchild are LGBTQ and he’s seen how his past opinions affect them.”
That is the first thing that sprang to mind.
My first thought. I was reading through faster to get at that question.
That is often how it works. Having friends who came out and forming friendships with people who were already out did much more to hasten my own moral growth than the arguments did. The arguments were right, but the relationships helped me hear them.
"New Testament Scholar" tells me everything I need to know about this grifter.
Nah, this guy isn’t a grifter. I remember coming across him back in the 90s when I was more interested in this stuff. He was one of the major scholars studying the NT, but that was back when even many lay Christians read real books written by scholars and didn’t just watch YouTube and TikTok videos made by fascists and crackpots.
He will probably be shunned for his new inclusive position and it's certainly not enough considering trans people are refused the healthcare they need in some states but if some on the fence read his book and change their minds, and then lend the book and help change more minds...
Let just hope it's not a hopeless dream.
No doubt. Christianity is the most factionalized religion on the planet, and is becoming more so.
I'm 71. This dude is 74. I figured this out in the fucking *1970s*, when I was still in my teens, so he's got no excuse. (Oh. Right. He's a big-brained professor. Is that an excuse?) Bergoglio, the current pope, doesn't have any excuse for his/his buddies latest nonsense either. Age doesn't get you off the hook when you harm people with your pronouncements about Hated Others.
Yesterday the demon-spawn pope was on TV spouting yet another hate-filled screed against LGBTQ and Trans people. Is it time we start burning these doddering hate mongering shitgibbons at their beloved stakes.
Yes, I read an article about Bergoglio's latest nonsense. To quote from a congresscritter in the 1950s, "Have you no shame?" He, BTW , has never said nada nor taken responsibility even for his own crimes (eg, in Argentina in the 1970s), so to assume he's allofasudden gonna change his shitgibbon spots--no, don't think so. I sometimes wish I believed that the Xtian hell was a thing, for people like that.
The only reason anyone considers Pope Fluffy "progressive" is because his immediate predecessor was evil incarnate; "𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢𝘴 𝘶𝘯𝘳𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘸𝘧𝘶𝘭 𝘢𝘴 𝘗𝘰𝘱𝘦 𝘗𝘢𝘭𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘦" is such a low bar to clear that even an earthworm couldn't wriggle under it.
Yeah, the whole “he’s slightly less evil than the previous guy” is a really fucking poor argument.
And many, many more. The history of the RCC is a long series of horribleness, from the git-go, and justifying it (cuz god sed so.)
My belief is the fact that “Christians” still existing is absolute proof that their God doesn’t exist. .
here we go again. 15 seconds for that to post
DM's grandmother would be between 113 and 124. She figured out homosexuality was not a dirty disease in the 1930's. And politically she was between French right and center right.
"New Testament scholar" roughly translates to "expert in bullshit."
He got his B.A. in BS.
Hey now, I got my B.S. in C.S. 20 years ago.
"He got his B.A. in BS"
It sure isn't a Bachelor of Science.
Master's of superstition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Ck6v6c1ko
She is missed.
Yes she is.
Hard to believe all the Golden Girls are gone (Betty White was the last). When Estelle Getty took off her makeup, wig and senior citizen clothing, she was actually the age of the other three.
I thought she was the youngest.
Rue McClanahan was the youngest both on the show and in real life.
In 1985 (when the show started), they were the following ages:
62-year-old Estelle Getty played 79-year-old Sophia.
55-year-old Betty White played 63-year-old Rose Nylund.
53-year-old Bea Arthur played 63-year-old Dorothy Zbornak.
51-year-old Rue McClanahan played 53-year-old Blanche Devereau.
I goofed on Estelle being their age in real life. She was 7 - 11 years older than her castmates.
One of the things science and religion have in common is that they both routinely revise and update their conclusions. Science tends to do so when new evidence is presented, though certainly social norms and pressures contribute to when and how science generates new conclusions. Religions generally revise and update their guidance when the societies around them put sufficient pressure on them and younger generations insist that new ideas be integrated.
What is astounding to me is the relative certainty and confidence that religious leaders profess in-between the reformations. They will look you straight in the eye and tell you that their current conclusions are irrefutable, derived from God, and will remain true for all time. Their confidence is strange, and unearned. Even a brief look at history reminds us that they will change their conclusions when they decide it is necessary to improve their social standing.
Full disclosure: I haven't read the book, I won't read the book, and I never heard of the guy until this article, although I may merely have forgotten that I heard of him.
But I read the story, and what struck me immediately about it was that he wrote it with his son, Christopher. And I immediately knew that this was the key to whatever had gone on. So I did just a little bit of digging and Sure enough, we find out that Christopher is a Pastor in the Presbyterian Church USA, one of the heretic churches that embraced gay people 15 or 20 years ago. This was the first citation I found, something called protestia. And sure enough, their splash page is just loaded with their upset over sex and gender, to the exclusion of just about everything else. So it wasn't surprising that they put on their big boy pants and were able to figure this much out all on their own:
"Put another way, it is almost a certainty that a family member has come out as LGBTQ, a revelation that served as the catalyst for a change in conviction. This is the pattern we see over and over, from Andy Stanley to Jen Hatmaker to David Gushee to Danny Cortez. It wasn’t because these two men learned to read the Bible better or discovered superior scholarship.
Instead, we would almost guarantee someone near to them came out as gay or trans and they’ve made this theological shift because they love that person more than Christ, which is ironic because, in doing so, they actually hate them both.
Mark it."
My first thought was that it was Christopher that had come out, but maybe not. But most likely somebody came out, and somebody finally started to be conscious enough to realize the extreme damage they were inflicting someone they loved. Because that's what it takes for so many conservatives to change their mind on any of their culture war issues: someone they love is now the enemy, and it is ever so easy to be a culture warrior if it doesn't affect you personally.
It is boringly predictable. Any changes to doctrine, or prejudice disguised as doctrine that they do not agree with, must be from the devil, must be mere humanity, must be anything but God trying to communicate to them that they have it wrong. The one thing that they can be sure of is that God will always agree with them, for are they not made in his image, and vice versa?
This is what they cannot and will not understand. Being a culture warrior, being a religious bigot, it's simply another exhibition of religious megalomania: I am special and you are not, God loves me more than he loves you, God will do exactly what I tell him too because he loves me more than he loves you, and am I not special? They cannot see the truism that I have been stating clearly for nearly 50 years: you cannot reach people who are irretrievably poisoned because they believe everything they think. You cannot reach people who are irretrievably poisoned by hate, fear, ignorance, stupidity, toxic religious belief (above all!), bad parenting, culture war mentality, traumatic childhood experiences, despite, An unwarranted faith in an imaginary superiority, And above all, their own dark issues.
That is the very definition of the word IRRETRIEVABLY.
So, good for Hayes. Apparently, he decided to be a better human being than he has been for the last 30 years. Unfortunately, he couldn't figure it out 30 years ago when it would've done a great deal more good.
Well, better latent than never.
Right. In this case, familiarity doesn't breed contempt; it breeds empathy.
Chaney the veep is an example.
So is Ted Haggard.
Yeah how does that "god changed his mind" thing work? Is god all-knowing and all-perfect? How then did god not realize he was wrong before? How can god ever be wrong? Whatever. Just glad to see a change of heart. I suspect a beloved friend or family member came out as gay. Can't have them going off to hell, can we.
For a change of heart you need a specialized surgeon.
For a change of mind you need to admit you're a fallible person.
Hays is late. We ALWAYS have good weather for our Pride Parades here. Meanwhile, YHVH is flattening yet another trailer park in the bible belt. Guess we know who the biblical deity truly favors.
Change is coming! Even in my small Southern university city, the weather has always been nice for the annual Gay Pride Parade.
(Tornadoes usually move on to the Midwestern bible belt by June.} The city closes Main Street, and quite a few vendors are starting to set up. This happens in Jonesboro, Arkansas!
You'd think that, given where I live, it would rain once in a while where the 'good weather' usually starts after the 4th of July. Nope. Always blue, sunny and warm.
If you were a god, and you wanted hang out in one the most awesome cities in the world, wouldn't pick Seattle ? And of course, a god with the power to find car keys and win football games could contro; the weather!
Yes, it is amazing how god, in charge of an infinite and expanding universe, can find the time to micromanage our affairs on our dust mote of a planet.
Here it's oppressively hot and humid, the line interminable, and the ticket prices average. The booths are mostly corporate and the fence makes the park look more like a prison yard. Oh and the parade happens after sundown.
Very few corporate types have ever heard of Jonesboro, it is really a sweet gathering of counter culture types, people from the University, and the die hard liberals
That always amused me in a grim sort of way. Some geezer in a flattened trailer park in Oklahoma tells a reported that he prayed all night as the tornado bore down, and god heard his prayers and spared his trailer. My reaction was, I guess god wasn't so keen on the neighbors!
They didn't jesus hard enough.
"Dec. 15, 1973, the 15-member board of the American Psychiatric Association had voted unanimously, with two abstentions, that homosexuality should no longer be considered a mental illness." It took the APA until 1973; I didn't applaud them then and I'm sure as hell not going to applaud this hateful, know-it-all so-call expert on the bible. These folks remind me of the ex-Republicans who help get us in the political mess we are in today, that want us all now to bend down and kiss their enlightened ass. How dare they!?!?
Yes, people can change, I have many times in my almost 81 years, but never on the gut-level ethical rules we all try to live by and that I learned very young. So, this 'scholar' is saying God changed his mind, so he now can? WOW! Did he have a conversation with the man upstairs? His arrogance is showing as bright as the North star.
As an older lesbian, I went through some very hard times in my life because of arrogant people like this guy. I was never in the closet, I refused and to no thanks to the likes of him, but to the hard fights me and my fellow LGBT+ folks fought things are better. Now, because of the hateful Republicans and ultra-religious right things just might get harder again, and I will fight them again until I can fight no more. My heart and mind will be refreshed of all the LGBT+ folks that have been hurt and even died by their hateful voices and hands. Damn them all.
Their epiphany comes when their kids are Gay. As I pointed out earlier, Veep dick cheney is an example.
❤️
How could a being who is omniscient of all events, past and future, change his mind? That would mean knew all along that he was going to change his mind, but intentionally waited until a specific time to do so.
Did you ever get the feeling that Yahweh has Alzheimer's?
It would explain a few things.
Paraphrasing Spock:
"To expect sense from such an extreme point of view is not logical."
Reason #4,473,879 to be an atheist: not having to sit in a closet and twiddle your thumbs waiting for religious scholars named Dick to finally, seven and a half decades into their lives, have a grand revelation and give you permission to be who you already were.
There are plenty of believers who busted open that coffin before it killed them.
I’m wondering if the celibacy thing that Hays mentioned (not a fate worse than death, uh, huh, tell that to a horny teen) is now off the table as well. Does masturbation now get a pass from being hell-bound too?
Hairy palms and glasses now?
Lol, glasses yes, hairy palms no.
I had glasses 7 years before I discovered masturbation.
I didn’t need glasses until I was an old fogey.
Got glasses when I was a child. Dodged the hairy palms.