Tantric sex guru for sure. There was one of those in one of the nudist recreation clubs we lived in, he was very weird, and creepy, (and I am very sex positive but I got bad vibes there) but the mature ladies chased him, and he was very popular with them.
Churches tend to be businesses, none more so than the LDS church. They value nothing so much as acquiring vast wealth. The Mormon church was founded by a convicted con artist, and the church expects people to accept what he said without questioning any of it. There is no independent corroboration for any of what Joseph Smith dreamed up, and the Mormon church does not begin to stand up against critical historical analysis.
The single biggest problem questioners discover about mormon teachings is that there's ZERO genetic basis for their claim of being descendants of Jews; there's no evidence that Native Americans are of Jewish heritage. The DNA doesn't lie. But Joseph Smith did.
By that standard, the LDS church is a mega-corp. With over $100 billion salted away in tithes and other contributions, they have a nest egg of a size a Roc couldn't handle!
Only a terrible person would start a cult, it's always about money, sex, and power, for them. Look at Tulsi's guru, a former surfer boy, they think he's so holy, they grind up his toenails (which I picture to be like Howard Hughes' were.)
I still remember having a Black Russian in the SLC airport bar, before returning to Cleveland after having solved a problem with a customer there. I'll bet money there are all sorts of secret drinkers among the not-so-faithful!
Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, Protestants don't recognize the Pope as the head of the chirch, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store.
I visited my relatives in SLC about 50 years ago and I noticed that my older, Mormon relatives in SLC drank and were not secret about it. Many of my younger relatives followed doctrine and went to church twice a week, at least. Looking back, I think my older relatives were 'cultural' Mormons. My great-grandfather was born around the turn of the century so he was not far removed from his hand-cart ancestors. I don't think they really believed a lot of the stuff anymore, they just didn't have other alternatives.
The same way the Baptist Church ruled my hometown...there was a dog track nearby, and the pastors we had never failed to denounce it as a "den of iniquity" "the devil's circle" etc.
One evening, three of my friends and I decided to see if we could get in, even though we were underage. The guy at the entrance took out money and let us right in. It was surprising how many people we saw that we recognized from church. We gambled on them not telling our parents we were there, because they would have to admit THEY were there. We were right.
Interesting side note: The facility was owned by a prominent family in our church, which everybody knew, but which made it doubly hilarious everytime a preacher railed against it from the pulpit! 😅
Yes when that lying preacher said give him a million dollars or god would call him "home" (I said nobody give him a dime and make him prove it.) But the local dog track owner sent him the final amount to "save" him. Gambling money seemed to be just fine!
Whatever threatens the revenue will be dealt with immediately. Addressing their ongoing child sexual abuse problem will be pushed to the back burner (in the OFF position).
That last is an issue which could come to the surface in a big way. If it proves out that there has been child abuse in the LDS church, that should rattle a LOT of the rank-and-file Mormons out there.
It has been proven, and they don’t care, they actually believe it is destined to be. The entire religion was populated by raping little girls by the handful, multiple wives is not only acceptable it’s the only way and you only have to wait for her menses to marry her. Mom and dad, well… dad, will pick out the best full grown/elderly man for you as soon as you turn twelve. So, when the religion is based on child sexual predation, there’s not going to be a big hullabaloo about child sexual predation.
It's really baked into their ancestry. The men most successful in the Mormon church were also the ones that produced the most progeny and when the religion was young so were the mothers.
The LDS church has an internet problem. It is too easy to search for problems in the church now. And that doesn't get into the batshit crazy beliefs the religion teaches. The best external explication of Mormonism I've seen is still David Fitzgerald's 'The Mormons'.
The only churches that might NOT have an internet problem are those which are so innocuous that they would be the utter antithesis of the major denominations. If a church as played fast and loose with finances, if their priests have diddled children, if their representatives have demanded the abolition of State / Church separation and taken action to accomplish that, they will draw attention in the same way that feces draw flies. Sooner or later, that attention builds to a breaking point.
And when things break, the fallout is frequently unfortunate and ugly.
I think they will take steps to address the csa issue: by financial shenanigans designed to minimize the hush money payments. Prevent abuse? They won't do that. Prevent accountability for abuse? That's what they pay their lawyers for.
Mitt Romney supposedly donated his entire inheritance he received from his father to the church. The Romney's are Mormon royalty. I don't know what happened, but I would not be surprised to learn what Romney donated was in a Cayman Island bank account by the end of the day. Romney had business ethics that would embarrass a pimp.
The LDS doing the same things the RCC has been doing for centuries. The question isn't why is Mor(m)on retention so low, but why RCC retention is higher.
Newer? Less places to hide from their past? Less money/power. It’s wild when I see Catholics and other Christians roll their eyes at Mormons. Make it make sense. Catholics have mastered the long game in deception.
With the advent of the internet, there may not be a church anywhere that has any place to hide. The word gets out, one way or another, and if it can find traction in major news media, the feces may hit the rotating blades with a vengeance!
If any of them have one new idea to put forward, I would be surprised. Mostly, it's been variations on the same old themes that were debunked ages ago.
At some point or other, the RCC will drop below stall speed, and when it does, the crash will be catastrophic.
I certainly haven't heard anything that I could distinguish from high school-level catechism class. Boooooring. They still talk to their presumed audiences like we're mentally disabled five-year-olds. Sorry: I outgrew that crap when I was in second grade, when I asked the nun teaching the first communion class "Where's heaven and where's hell?" She pointed to the ceiling and said "Heaven's up there" and pointed to the floor and said "Hell's down there." Now, I was born on a Tuesday, but it wasn't last Tuesday, and everybody and their dog knew the Earth was round. So I asked if hell was in Australia. Which got me kicked out of catechism class for two weeks. By the time my dad came to pick me up (I had been banished to the church steps, presumably to contemplate my sins) one of the nuns had called my parents to threaten that if I kept having a smart mouth I wouldn't be able to make first communion with my class. My dad swore at me in French for a couple of minutes, then started laughing when I told him the story. My mom was *not* happy, but my dad told the story to the French-speaking side of the family for *years.* No wonder I don't have an ounce of respect for the YT apologists now, almost 70 years later!
Because the RCC has had centuries of head start. Mormonism is a cult. Full stop. They go over the line into cult territory non-stop--in fact, often don't seem to understand where the line even is. The RCC has had many centuries more of experience and knows *exactly* where that line is, so they normally (at least in the last 50-ish years) go *right* up to the line but generally not any further. (Note: Steven Hassan, in his work on cults, the BITE model, lays out this exact comparison in great detail.) The RCC was a whole lot more cult-like when I was a child, pre-Vatican II, than it is now. Just reading about its 19th and 20th century history is instructive in this regard. And, no, RCC retention rate is pretty dismal as well, and has been for some while. Last I checked, about 10% of the US population are, by self report, ex-catholics, 30-ish million. Numbers are worse in Europe.
I grew up in the Catholic Church, and it always presented me with more questions than answers. It doesn't stand up to critical thinking. About the only thing I can say in defense of the church is that the majority of Catholics take their religion with a grain of salt. Catholic true believers, on the other hand, are just as bad as any other flavor of fundamentalism.
Make that "a ton of salt." I grew up in the RCC as well, and the church my family attended was on the--er--conservative end of the spectrum. It was Latin-only til the year before I went away to college, 1969. Funny, that: my mom was a cradle catholic, my dad a convert. By the time my parents died, mom was the only one in the family who believed any more. We all (including dad) ditched the church in our own way, and we all have different ways of describing our non-belief. The youngest, my nieces and nephew, never did believe, so it's irrelevant to them.
The only actual believers that we are related to are on the East Coast and in France, and are Easter-and-Christmas-only elderly ones.
It angers me to see the Catholic Church do the bare minimum virtue signaling of “genocide bad” or “war bad” without having any real skin in the game. It wants to control “morality” for the globe. Too big to fail? 😩
Or maybe "too old to fail"? (I know. That doesn't work.) But maybe that's why they get a pass? Sort of like, "don't rile up grandpa. He gets upset if you remind him it isn't 1920 any more. We're just waiting til he kicks the bucket."
Women's rights. LGBTQ+ rights. Their support of Prop 8 in California. The LDS church, despite its recent concessions, remains an anachronism on the face of 21st century United States. Millennials, Gen Z, and likely Gen Alpha are seeing this, and they want no part of it. I would suspect that there are Boomers and Gen Xers who have finally come to the same conclusion and taken off their magic underwear.
Mormonism is on the down-slide, the same as virtually every other religion in the US. No one should be surprised.
This period of religious psychosis in the US is unbearable especially for younger folks who have no attachment/shared history with these institutions. That’s exciting!
It gives me hope we can stop all the magical thinking that is so damaging, and live in reality, to solve actual problems, instead of waiting for an imaginary rescue person (that isn't even in their book).
It's interesting that the same issues that are driving poor retention among most religions, LGBT rights and women's roles in the church, are also driving people away from the MoMos. There's also A LOT more questioning of the church's founding story by people discovering the work of Sandra Tanner and, more recently, the CES Letter published by Jeremy Runnels. Over the years, the church has changed long-standing parts of its initiation ceremonies because people, especially women, found them invasive and degrading. Younger people are turned off by bishops, mostly middle aged men, asking deeply personal questions regarding their sex lives. Let's face it, in any other setting that would be seen as grooming.
The internet has made it impossible for the church to keep eliding its own suspect early history and teachings, which were often blatantly racist and violent. It's also harder for the church to cover up its shady financial dealings and net worth - while still forcing average mormons to shovel out substantial 'tithing' the church hasn't needed in decades.
I hope recovering mormons take the next step and realize the questions and problems they have with the LDS church are the same ones they'll have with all the others. That's the big, freeing step away from the grip of religion, especially high-control religions like the mormons.
I was raised Mormon. I was a full time missionary in southern Chile. Married in the temple. While I accepted the teaching with which I was raised that same sex relationships were sinful, I also felt that homosexuals are redeemable, that if they did not act on their impulses they could avoid sin, and as stated in the Articles of Faith, we are responsible only for our own sins. I was in a difficult situation, and the only people willing to help my family was a homosexual couple (not in the church, obviously). In the meantime, the church came out with a declaration that not only those in homosexual relationships but their CHILDREN were cut off from full participation with the church, at least until they were 18 and formally denounced their parents. That same year, when there was a wildfire in southern Idaho, there was a member of our ward that wished the fire would burn the nonmember's homes instead of church member's homes. This started my journey away from the church, but also that of my wife and other family members. I am finding much solace in Buddhist teachings these days.
ANY church that teaches you need to cut off your own children or proposes violence against non-believers isn't a church. It's a cult. I'm glad you and your family escaped.
"The church has become more of an investment company with holdings worth well into the billions, and they’ve committed financial shenanigans to hide their assets."
My wife and I left and resigned from the church at the same time. She did so because she was no longer convinced by the Church's truth claims and because of the stress being an active member of a high-demand religion created. I left because my Bishop suggested it would be better to divorce my wife and remain active rather than be part of a "mixed-faith" marriage. After being born and raised and spending my entire life as an active, faithful member, the church asked the one thing I was unwilling to do.
Of course my wife was right to doubt the truth claims of the church and it didn't take me long afterwards to become convinced myself after the hypocrisy of what the "families are forever" church had asked me to do. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that leaving the church saved our marriage and we have become much closer and happier since then.
But it also opened our minds to other things that the church might be wrong about. It didn't take long to transition from active Mormons to non-denominational Christians and then to atheists. It didn't take long either to transition from political conservatives to political progressives.
And speaking of transition, I did that too. Freed from the oppressive weight of religious guilt and shame, for the first time in my life I was able to explore my gender identity. Now I'm a trans lesbian and my wife came out as bi. Our teen recently came out to us as genderfluid, something I'm sure they never would have felt comfortable doing if we were still Mormons.
So from our own personal experience, we had to leave the Church first before we were able to embrace our queer identities. It wasn't a catalyst for leaving - rather it was something we were able to acknowledge after having left. I'm part of an ex-Mormon trans women Discord with hundreds of members. My heart gets so happy every time another one joins - which is often! Anecdotally, trans-laters (who transition later in life), like myself, generally seem like they need to leave the Church first before they can embrace their gender identity. But the trans youth more often embrace their gender identity first and then use that as a catalyst for leaving the church (since the church is entirely unsupportive and transphobic).
The first ex-Mormon person I ever met was in college and she was a burlesque dancer. Super cool person, but with so many issues. My roommate somehow always found these types to date, poor guy 🤣
Let’s also not forget that the LDS Church is one of the, if not the largest owners of land or property in the USA. Their billions in offshore banks is one thing, but their investments in property actually has a great deal more pull politically. They can wield their property, land, or corporations as weapons so much easier than throwing cash around. It has so much more impact on our daily lives than a Cayman Island account.
Folks are finally copping on to the reality of a religion built on the backs and wombs of women, turning them into slaves and treating them like children. Big surprise women are leaving. It should have bothered them more that their 11 year old sons had more autonomy than they do as adults. But the Mormon women I know personally always defend this aspect by saying they have their place and women have their organization within the religion, totally ignoring that they can petition the men in charge to make certain decisions about their organization, but the men still make all the decisions over it. I think the outrageous corruption and criminal sexual behavior of all the current administration (pretty much everyone involved in the current regime has heinous sex crimes on their resume and every new guy showing up is moments away from charges) and the equating the regime with conservative Christian sects, is making the women wake up to their own situation. That what they’re experiencing is not acceptable and actually illegal.
It also helps that Gen Z is a bit more savvy with rejecting creepy adult advances overall. This generation is not falling all over itself when given attention from predatory men. They have been taught by the older generations, those that were expected to accept all male validation as good, that it isn’t appropriate for a 30 year old to drool over a 14 year old. I certainly was clear that, in hindsight, my experiences were inappropriate and I was allowed to express my discomfort to my daughter. She is not one to be fooled with. She is creeped out by upperclassmen that hang out with the freshmen girls and is always frank about anyone who looks at her inappropriately. It only takes exposure to this type of thinking to plant a seed in the minds of the devout women who have been groomed into allowing the uncomfortable attention from men to start questioning their religious expectations. They already know there’s something wrong, even when they’re taught to accept it, but being exposed to peers who are able to address the problem, or even put the issue into words, they can feel more empowered to push back. To dig themselves out of their religious black holes.
Sorry if this is long, but I think that while we feel like everything is hopeless right now with *gestures vaguely* the regime/oligarchy/apocalypse, we are actually making progress on serious issues. It sometimes takes extreme situations to break out of mundane, dare I say comfortable, oppressive systems. I am hopeful that we might make some serious leaps forward in human rights, but I know we will have to go through some seriously bad shit first.
And the Lord did say, "Behold! Revenues are down 15% this quarter! But fear not, for Heaven's marketing department hath said that the gays have disposable income. Let it be known that we are okay with the gays so long as they aren't too gay... like butch it up a little... fellas. Maybe a motorcycle... or a black leather jacket... but thou shalt not wear leather pants, for it maketh Elder Johnson feel odd."
I'd love to know just what that "revelation" would be. "Hey, gang, we're a bunch of male-chauvinist pigs who are hanging onto power by our fingernails!"
Shocking that a former sex cult built on patriarchy has a hard time retaining younger women.
Yeah, how did that happen? ;)
The women woke up and smelled the patriarchy ... and the stench was none too sweet! 😝
Someone should have told them about the Sexual Revolution! 😁
I served during the Sexual Revolution. Was never wounded and never got off a shot. :)
The horror........the......horror........
But you were shot at multiple times?
I woulda thunk you had gotten off a lot of "shots.". 😁
Joe Smith would definitely have been a hippie sex guru.
Complete with harem!
Tantric sex guru for sure. There was one of those in one of the nudist recreation clubs we lived in, he was very weird, and creepy, (and I am very sex positive but I got bad vibes there) but the mature ladies chased him, and he was very popular with them.
Pasco County?
Whodda thunk it, eh?
👆🎯Yes a religion invented by a criminal, while in jail, to be able to bone young girls, who could have foreseen that!
Churches tend to be businesses, none more so than the LDS church. They value nothing so much as acquiring vast wealth. The Mormon church was founded by a convicted con artist, and the church expects people to accept what he said without questioning any of it. There is no independent corroboration for any of what Joseph Smith dreamed up, and the Mormon church does not begin to stand up against critical historical analysis.
The single biggest problem questioners discover about mormon teachings is that there's ZERO genetic basis for their claim of being descendants of Jews; there's no evidence that Native Americans are of Jewish heritage. The DNA doesn't lie. But Joseph Smith did.
If Joseph Smith were around today, he'd probably be sitting in jail alongside Warren Jeffs. At least I hope that's where he'd be.
Yup. Child 'brides' and bigamy, for starters. He'd be a guest at Hotel Graybar for sure.
By that standard, the LDS church is a mega-corp. With over $100 billion salted away in tithes and other contributions, they have a nest egg of a size a Roc couldn't handle!
"none more so than the LDS church"
Scientology? And surely the Roman Catholics have gotta be at least a strong runner-up.
Scientology scares the living daylights out of me. I've seen so many news stories and documentaries about them. They operate like a religious Mafia.
The leader's wife being kidnapped from public life, and kept isolated on that rural ranch is creepy.
Has anyone heard from her since? I was following that story for a while, then there was so much other shit flying around I lost track.
Are you sure she is still alive?
Are there any religions that do stand up to critical historical analysis?
It's kind of alarming how many of the biggest religions or sects were started by truly horrible men.
Only a terrible person would start a cult, it's always about money, sex, and power, for them. Look at Tulsi's guru, a former surfer boy, they think he's so holy, they grind up his toenails (which I picture to be like Howard Hughes' were.)
I read about that and almost lost my lunch. Gross does not begin to cover it.
The LDS church is particularly vulnerable because it was established in the 19th century.
Uh, no?
I read that as 'the LSD church' at first glance. 🤪😂
No booze. No caffeine. people are noping out of that shit.
I still remember having a Black Russian in the SLC airport bar, before returning to Cleveland after having solved a problem with a customer there. I'll bet money there are all sorts of secret drinkers among the not-so-faithful!
There are plenty of secret drinkers among the mormons just as there are among the 'alcohol-is-evil' baptists 'round these parts.
Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, Protestants don't recognize the Pope as the head of the chirch, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store.
You almost owed me a keyboard, Joe!! 😂
Yep.
Stealing !
I visited my relatives in SLC about 50 years ago and I noticed that my older, Mormon relatives in SLC drank and were not secret about it. Many of my younger relatives followed doctrine and went to church twice a week, at least. Looking back, I think my older relatives were 'cultural' Mormons. My great-grandfather was born around the turn of the century so he was not far removed from his hand-cart ancestors. I don't think they really believed a lot of the stuff anymore, they just didn't have other alternatives.
The same way the Baptist Church ruled my hometown...there was a dog track nearby, and the pastors we had never failed to denounce it as a "den of iniquity" "the devil's circle" etc.
One evening, three of my friends and I decided to see if we could get in, even though we were underage. The guy at the entrance took out money and let us right in. It was surprising how many people we saw that we recognized from church. We gambled on them not telling our parents we were there, because they would have to admit THEY were there. We were right.
Interesting side note: The facility was owned by a prominent family in our church, which everybody knew, but which made it doubly hilarious everytime a preacher railed against it from the pulpit! 😅
Yes when that lying preacher said give him a million dollars or god would call him "home" (I said nobody give him a dime and make him prove it.) But the local dog track owner sent him the final amount to "save" him. Gambling money seemed to be just fine!
They violate the “no caffeine” rule whenever they down a Coke or a Pepsi.
The ones I've known abstain from those or get the caffeine-free options.
Whatever threatens the revenue will be dealt with immediately. Addressing their ongoing child sexual abuse problem will be pushed to the back burner (in the OFF position).
That last is an issue which could come to the surface in a big way. If it proves out that there has been child abuse in the LDS church, that should rattle a LOT of the rank-and-file Mormons out there.
And it damned well SHOULD.
It has been proven, and they don’t care, they actually believe it is destined to be. The entire religion was populated by raping little girls by the handful, multiple wives is not only acceptable it’s the only way and you only have to wait for her menses to marry her. Mom and dad, well… dad, will pick out the best full grown/elderly man for you as soon as you turn twelve. So, when the religion is based on child sexual predation, there’s not going to be a big hullabaloo about child sexual predation.
Bingo, throwing out the young boys so there is no competition is horrible.
It's really baked into their ancestry. The men most successful in the Mormon church were also the ones that produced the most progeny and when the religion was young so were the mothers.
I wonder how many of those little girls died in childbirth.
Just one is too many, and it was probably a LOT more than one!
The worst part of that is that the ones that died in childbirth were probably the lucky ones.
Do a search engine with the words "child sexual abuse in the mormon church." Link after link after link.
The LDS church has an internet problem. It is too easy to search for problems in the church now. And that doesn't get into the batshit crazy beliefs the religion teaches. The best external explication of Mormonism I've seen is still David Fitzgerald's 'The Mormons'.
The only churches that might NOT have an internet problem are those which are so innocuous that they would be the utter antithesis of the major denominations. If a church as played fast and loose with finances, if their priests have diddled children, if their representatives have demanded the abolition of State / Church separation and taken action to accomplish that, they will draw attention in the same way that feces draw flies. Sooner or later, that attention builds to a breaking point.
And when things break, the fallout is frequently unfortunate and ugly.
I think they will take steps to address the csa issue: by financial shenanigans designed to minimize the hush money payments. Prevent abuse? They won't do that. Prevent accountability for abuse? That's what they pay their lawyers for.
Mitt Romney supposedly donated his entire inheritance he received from his father to the church. The Romney's are Mormon royalty. I don't know what happened, but I would not be surprised to learn what Romney donated was in a Cayman Island bank account by the end of the day. Romney had business ethics that would embarrass a pimp.
Romney was born in the Mexican compound where the hardcore polygamists moved after it was discouraged here in the states.
Child brides were the reason behind their founding, after all. It is their tradition.
The LDS doing the same things the RCC has been doing for centuries. The question isn't why is Mor(m)on retention so low, but why RCC retention is higher.
Newer? Less places to hide from their past? Less money/power. It’s wild when I see Catholics and other Christians roll their eyes at Mormons. Make it make sense. Catholics have mastered the long game in deception.
With the advent of the internet, there may not be a church anywhere that has any place to hide. The word gets out, one way or another, and if it can find traction in major news media, the feces may hit the rotating blades with a vengeance!
The surge of recent every day Catholic apologists on the internet are worrisome, but I hope is short lived.
If any of them have one new idea to put forward, I would be surprised. Mostly, it's been variations on the same old themes that were debunked ages ago.
At some point or other, the RCC will drop below stall speed, and when it does, the crash will be catastrophic.
I certainly haven't heard anything that I could distinguish from high school-level catechism class. Boooooring. They still talk to their presumed audiences like we're mentally disabled five-year-olds. Sorry: I outgrew that crap when I was in second grade, when I asked the nun teaching the first communion class "Where's heaven and where's hell?" She pointed to the ceiling and said "Heaven's up there" and pointed to the floor and said "Hell's down there." Now, I was born on a Tuesday, but it wasn't last Tuesday, and everybody and their dog knew the Earth was round. So I asked if hell was in Australia. Which got me kicked out of catechism class for two weeks. By the time my dad came to pick me up (I had been banished to the church steps, presumably to contemplate my sins) one of the nuns had called my parents to threaten that if I kept having a smart mouth I wouldn't be able to make first communion with my class. My dad swore at me in French for a couple of minutes, then started laughing when I told him the story. My mom was *not* happy, but my dad told the story to the French-speaking side of the family for *years.* No wonder I don't have an ounce of respect for the YT apologists now, almost 70 years later!
Yup. All this.
Because the RCC has had centuries of head start. Mormonism is a cult. Full stop. They go over the line into cult territory non-stop--in fact, often don't seem to understand where the line even is. The RCC has had many centuries more of experience and knows *exactly* where that line is, so they normally (at least in the last 50-ish years) go *right* up to the line but generally not any further. (Note: Steven Hassan, in his work on cults, the BITE model, lays out this exact comparison in great detail.) The RCC was a whole lot more cult-like when I was a child, pre-Vatican II, than it is now. Just reading about its 19th and 20th century history is instructive in this regard. And, no, RCC retention rate is pretty dismal as well, and has been for some while. Last I checked, about 10% of the US population are, by self report, ex-catholics, 30-ish million. Numbers are worse in Europe.
I grew up in the Catholic Church, and it always presented me with more questions than answers. It doesn't stand up to critical thinking. About the only thing I can say in defense of the church is that the majority of Catholics take their religion with a grain of salt. Catholic true believers, on the other hand, are just as bad as any other flavor of fundamentalism.
Make that "a ton of salt." I grew up in the RCC as well, and the church my family attended was on the--er--conservative end of the spectrum. It was Latin-only til the year before I went away to college, 1969. Funny, that: my mom was a cradle catholic, my dad a convert. By the time my parents died, mom was the only one in the family who believed any more. We all (including dad) ditched the church in our own way, and we all have different ways of describing our non-belief. The youngest, my nieces and nephew, never did believe, so it's irrelevant to them.
The only actual believers that we are related to are on the East Coast and in France, and are Easter-and-Christmas-only elderly ones.
It angers me to see the Catholic Church do the bare minimum virtue signaling of “genocide bad” or “war bad” without having any real skin in the game. It wants to control “morality” for the globe. Too big to fail? 😩
Or maybe "too old to fail"? (I know. That doesn't work.) But maybe that's why they get a pass? Sort of like, "don't rile up grandpa. He gets upset if you remind him it isn't 1920 any more. We're just waiting til he kicks the bucket."
Right. It’s like Mitch McConnell throwing up E.T phone home hand signs to the press.
Women's rights. LGBTQ+ rights. Their support of Prop 8 in California. The LDS church, despite its recent concessions, remains an anachronism on the face of 21st century United States. Millennials, Gen Z, and likely Gen Alpha are seeing this, and they want no part of it. I would suspect that there are Boomers and Gen Xers who have finally come to the same conclusion and taken off their magic underwear.
Mormonism is on the down-slide, the same as virtually every other religion in the US. No one should be surprised.
This period of religious psychosis in the US is unbearable especially for younger folks who have no attachment/shared history with these institutions. That’s exciting!
It gives me hope we can stop all the magical thinking that is so damaging, and live in reality, to solve actual problems, instead of waiting for an imaginary rescue person (that isn't even in their book).
It's interesting that the same issues that are driving poor retention among most religions, LGBT rights and women's roles in the church, are also driving people away from the MoMos. There's also A LOT more questioning of the church's founding story by people discovering the work of Sandra Tanner and, more recently, the CES Letter published by Jeremy Runnels. Over the years, the church has changed long-standing parts of its initiation ceremonies because people, especially women, found them invasive and degrading. Younger people are turned off by bishops, mostly middle aged men, asking deeply personal questions regarding their sex lives. Let's face it, in any other setting that would be seen as grooming.
The internet has made it impossible for the church to keep eliding its own suspect early history and teachings, which were often blatantly racist and violent. It's also harder for the church to cover up its shady financial dealings and net worth - while still forcing average mormons to shovel out substantial 'tithing' the church hasn't needed in decades.
I hope recovering mormons take the next step and realize the questions and problems they have with the LDS church are the same ones they'll have with all the others. That's the big, freeing step away from the grip of religion, especially high-control religions like the mormons.
I was raised Mormon. I was a full time missionary in southern Chile. Married in the temple. While I accepted the teaching with which I was raised that same sex relationships were sinful, I also felt that homosexuals are redeemable, that if they did not act on their impulses they could avoid sin, and as stated in the Articles of Faith, we are responsible only for our own sins. I was in a difficult situation, and the only people willing to help my family was a homosexual couple (not in the church, obviously). In the meantime, the church came out with a declaration that not only those in homosexual relationships but their CHILDREN were cut off from full participation with the church, at least until they were 18 and formally denounced their parents. That same year, when there was a wildfire in southern Idaho, there was a member of our ward that wished the fire would burn the nonmember's homes instead of church member's homes. This started my journey away from the church, but also that of my wife and other family members. I am finding much solace in Buddhist teachings these days.
There is no hate like Christian love.
ANY church that teaches you need to cut off your own children or proposes violence against non-believers isn't a church. It's a cult. I'm glad you and your family escaped.
"The church has become more of an investment company with holdings worth well into the billions, and they’ve committed financial shenanigans to hide their assets."
This is why religion exists: money and power.
My own personal anecdote as a proud ex-Mormon:
My wife and I left and resigned from the church at the same time. She did so because she was no longer convinced by the Church's truth claims and because of the stress being an active member of a high-demand religion created. I left because my Bishop suggested it would be better to divorce my wife and remain active rather than be part of a "mixed-faith" marriage. After being born and raised and spending my entire life as an active, faithful member, the church asked the one thing I was unwilling to do.
Of course my wife was right to doubt the truth claims of the church and it didn't take me long afterwards to become convinced myself after the hypocrisy of what the "families are forever" church had asked me to do. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that leaving the church saved our marriage and we have become much closer and happier since then.
But it also opened our minds to other things that the church might be wrong about. It didn't take long to transition from active Mormons to non-denominational Christians and then to atheists. It didn't take long either to transition from political conservatives to political progressives.
And speaking of transition, I did that too. Freed from the oppressive weight of religious guilt and shame, for the first time in my life I was able to explore my gender identity. Now I'm a trans lesbian and my wife came out as bi. Our teen recently came out to us as genderfluid, something I'm sure they never would have felt comfortable doing if we were still Mormons.
So from our own personal experience, we had to leave the Church first before we were able to embrace our queer identities. It wasn't a catalyst for leaving - rather it was something we were able to acknowledge after having left. I'm part of an ex-Mormon trans women Discord with hundreds of members. My heart gets so happy every time another one joins - which is often! Anecdotally, trans-laters (who transition later in life), like myself, generally seem like they need to leave the Church first before they can embrace their gender identity. But the trans youth more often embrace their gender identity first and then use that as a catalyst for leaving the church (since the church is entirely unsupportive and transphobic).
Great story! I'm honestly thrilled that you 1) got shut of the LDS church and 2) found the support you and yours needed. Keep on truckin'!
The first ex-Mormon person I ever met was in college and she was a burlesque dancer. Super cool person, but with so many issues. My roommate somehow always found these types to date, poor guy 🤣
He was from Minnesota (Minnesota nice) 😊
Oh yah, you betcha. :)
☺️
Let’s also not forget that the LDS Church is one of the, if not the largest owners of land or property in the USA. Their billions in offshore banks is one thing, but their investments in property actually has a great deal more pull politically. They can wield their property, land, or corporations as weapons so much easier than throwing cash around. It has so much more impact on our daily lives than a Cayman Island account.
Folks are finally copping on to the reality of a religion built on the backs and wombs of women, turning them into slaves and treating them like children. Big surprise women are leaving. It should have bothered them more that their 11 year old sons had more autonomy than they do as adults. But the Mormon women I know personally always defend this aspect by saying they have their place and women have their organization within the religion, totally ignoring that they can petition the men in charge to make certain decisions about their organization, but the men still make all the decisions over it. I think the outrageous corruption and criminal sexual behavior of all the current administration (pretty much everyone involved in the current regime has heinous sex crimes on their resume and every new guy showing up is moments away from charges) and the equating the regime with conservative Christian sects, is making the women wake up to their own situation. That what they’re experiencing is not acceptable and actually illegal.
It also helps that Gen Z is a bit more savvy with rejecting creepy adult advances overall. This generation is not falling all over itself when given attention from predatory men. They have been taught by the older generations, those that were expected to accept all male validation as good, that it isn’t appropriate for a 30 year old to drool over a 14 year old. I certainly was clear that, in hindsight, my experiences were inappropriate and I was allowed to express my discomfort to my daughter. She is not one to be fooled with. She is creeped out by upperclassmen that hang out with the freshmen girls and is always frank about anyone who looks at her inappropriately. It only takes exposure to this type of thinking to plant a seed in the minds of the devout women who have been groomed into allowing the uncomfortable attention from men to start questioning their religious expectations. They already know there’s something wrong, even when they’re taught to accept it, but being exposed to peers who are able to address the problem, or even put the issue into words, they can feel more empowered to push back. To dig themselves out of their religious black holes.
Sorry if this is long, but I think that while we feel like everything is hopeless right now with *gestures vaguely* the regime/oligarchy/apocalypse, we are actually making progress on serious issues. It sometimes takes extreme situations to break out of mundane, dare I say comfortable, oppressive systems. I am hopeful that we might make some serious leaps forward in human rights, but I know we will have to go through some seriously bad shit first.
I would guess a cause is the rise of the Internet is exposing more and more folks to other perspectives and facts and such.
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑒𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑔𝑜 𝑡𝑜 𝑑𝑖𝑒.
-- Thunderf00t
Just not fast enough.
I sense another convenient "revelation" in the offing.
And the Lord did say, "Behold! Revenues are down 15% this quarter! But fear not, for Heaven's marketing department hath said that the gays have disposable income. Let it be known that we are okay with the gays so long as they aren't too gay... like butch it up a little... fellas. Maybe a motorcycle... or a black leather jacket... but thou shalt not wear leather pants, for it maketh Elder Johnson feel odd."
Make sure you begin with "And it came to pass..." A Mormon standard. :D
It came to pass / That the LDS ran outta gas! 🤪
https://youtu.be/pgHxFNFWlZc
Smith's kidney stones?
"Oh, the pain! The pain!"
🤣🤣🤣 Stop it, STOP IT! Yer killin' me here! 🤣🤣🤣
What! No assless leather chaps?
The last one was in 1978 when it was revealed to them that black people are, in fact, people.
Maybe this time it won't take 148 years.🤞
Who could be tapped for money just as well as anyone else!
I'd love to know just what that "revelation" would be. "Hey, gang, we're a bunch of male-chauvinist pigs who are hanging onto power by our fingernails!"
Oh, yeah, that'll do it! 🤪
"We will let gay men have a very limited role as long as they promise to never do gay stuff. After all, they are men."
Ooooo, that one could be loaded. Question: How many Mormon males are seeing other men on the down-low? I'll bet it's more than a few!
How many Mormon men went to Dallas for the NSGOP Trump worshipping festival where Grindr crashed? That might give us a start point to estimate...
Anyone who believes in "prophets" in this day and age...
A cult built on sexual control and abuse. I'm shocked.
https://i.redd.it/ld8tzq9gnjf81.jpg
Joey had no use for older women, it seems.
How YOU doin'? (My first thought.)
His first wife got wise and divorced his nasty ass, so he wasn't going to make that mistake again.