My (very long) conversation with two Christian hate-preachers

I recently spoke with Jonathan Shelley and Aaron Thompson, pastors in the New Independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement

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I recently did something I didn’t think I’d ever do: I sat down with two Christian hate-preachers to talk about our mutual disgust and why they say such horrible things.

Why? Because I’m a masochist, that’s why.

Jonathan Shelley and Aaron Thompson are two pastors in the New Independent Fundamentalist Baptist movement. While the sizes of their congregations are tiny, I find that number to be irrelevant. Their true congregations are their audiences on social media, where they can be found by like-minded bigots seeking affirmations of their worst beliefs. (After YouTube banned their churches’ channels, along with those of multiple sock puppet accounts, they migrated over to Rumble.)

New IFB preachers have celebrated the deaths of LGBTQ people, called on the government to execute homosexuals with a firing squad, spread Holocaust denialism, promoted misogyny, and more. Some have said women shouldn’t be judges and shouldn’t be allowed to vote. They believe abortion doctors should be killed.

It’s all horrible, but the death-to-gays rhetoric is like the “Margaritaville” of their sermons; the crowd just expects it at this point. Shelley mocked the death of a gay man at a Pride parade (“I think it's great! I hope they all die!”), repeatedly wished for and called for the death of gay people in general, and appeared at an Arlington City Council meeting in Texas to push back against their acknowledgment of Pride Month by repeating the same calls for violence.

The ringleader of the group is Steven Anderson, a guy who responded to the Pulse nightclub massacre by claiming, “The good news is there are 50 less pedophiles in this world.” His sermons have been so outrageous that 34 countries won’t allow him to step foot within their borders. In 2020, Anderson spread misinformation about COVID, even urging his congregation (and YouTube viewers) to avoid any eventual vaccines.

So when I saw that Shelley and Thompson were visiting my area for a “Soulwinning and Preaching Trip,” I figured I’d reach out to them.

They knew me. After all, I’m the guy who regularly clips sound bites from their sermons to show people what can happen when you justify extremism by pointing to the Bible. I wanted to know how much of their act was performative and how much was genuine. Were these guys really as awful as I thought they were? Would they backtrack when challenged about those statements in person?

To my surprise, they agreed to meet… if we could livestream our discussion on their Rumble channel.

After a few (unintentional) delays, both men showed up at the designated space and their church members set up the equipment. Several others sat on the sides of the room. We began recording and ended up chatting for nearly three hours.

Was it infuriating? Yes.

Did I get to every topic I wanted to ask about? No.

Did we change each other’s minds? Ha. Not a chance.

Was it a useful attempt to reach across the aisle? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I realize that some people will criticize this whole conversation on principle. They will say I’m giving a platform to these hate-mongers when they deserve to be ignored rather than amplified. I would argue that these people exist whether or not I say anything, and I’d rather have this conversation on my terms, with my questions, than acting like they live in some vacuum. That’s not how social media algorithms work.

And people are listening to them.

Two years ago, a 27-year-old man named Tyler R. Dinsmoor was arrested by the Oak Harbor Police Department in Washington after threatening to kill LGBTQ people at the Anacortes Pride Parade the following day. He had repeatedly talked about murdering gay people on social media, echoing New IFB rhetoric the entire time—and he had the weapons to do it. He also cited Aaron Thompson as his pastor. (Thompson denied knowing Dinsmoor in any personal capacity but admitted the guy had visited his church.)

I fear that when right-wing Christian zealots listen to these pastors praise hate crimes, they’re going to take the “law”—or at least the law they think the Bible calls for—into their own hands, even if these pastors say it’s the government that should be doing the executing.

So here’s our conversation.

It’s unedited except for a few occasions when I bleeped out their anti-gay slurs. My opening question, which was not picked up by the microphones, was if Shelley and Thompson understood why I watched their sermons.

Here are the timestamps for anyone interested:

0:00:01 Their opposition to homosexuality (and why I watch them)
0:20:07 The church member arrested for threatening violence at a Pride parade
0:36:20 How to handle rebellious kids
0:41:34 Their interactions with gay people
0:44:20 The punishment for rebellious children
0:49:54 Their media diet
0:57:55 What they think about vaccines
1:08:00 Politics and their voting record
1:09:52 Their beliefs about the Holocaust
1:15:48 What constitutes free speech
1:19:41 What constitutes hate speech
1:21:44 How New IFB preachers handle disagreement
1:23:55 Whether divorce is ever permissible 
1:37:07 My thoughts about their sermons
1:41:29 What they've said about me in their sermons 
1:42:50 What the Bible says
1:43:44 Why I call them hate preachers
1:47:44 Whether I would ever accept Jesus 
1:50:45 Their beliefs about my sexuality 
1:54:45 Whether I'm a reprobate
1:57:56 What they think happens in public schools
2:10:16 Christian persecution  
2:15:20 Their frustrations with me 
2:25:51 Viewer questions 

Incidentally, on Sunday, “Brother Steven” (who works with Aaron Thompson) lashed out against me—by name—because of my suggestion that a member of their church might one day commit a hate crime against a gay person.

After insisting that it’s the government, not random people, that ought to be “dishing out capital punishment,” he says that if gay people "could get you alone, and no one was looking, they would kill you... They would just straight-up murder you."

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