Programs like 𝐿𝑒𝑡 𝑈𝑠 𝑃𝑟𝑒𝑦 and 𝑆ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑦 𝐻𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑦 𝑃𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 are NECESSARY. They are NEEDED, because the general public is mostly completely unaware of the behavior of churches such as those of the IFB, and they damned well need to know. Some of them, and indeed, some of those who are members of IFB churches, just might be moved to take action against them and bring what is undoubtedly MORE such offenses to light.
I salute those who made these documentaries and those who had the fortitude to come forward and tell their stories, and I look forward to more such revelations in the future.
Some of them might be moved to take action? Maybe, but more likely the indoctrination will have them slut shaming the victims and supporting the abusers. God damned purity culture religious bullshit.
I suspect a few IFB members who learn about the depredations of their leaders would be sufficiently disgusted to reject them. I would doubt that there would be many if any at all who would go so far as to become atheists. And of course there would be those who would just shrug their shoulders and go on doing what they were doing, water off a duck's back attitude.
Those are the ones whose humanity I genuinely question.
The herd instinct runs deep in the human species, and I suspect it may have been part of our survival strategy. Puny little humans survived through banding together for security and the specialization of labor. I think a lot of people belong to churches because they feel a deep need to belong to something. Belonging isn't the root problem, it's the willingness of people to delegate their thinking to others that causes all the trouble. People get caught up in the dynamic of organized religion, and often become blind to what it's doing to them, and blind to what their real choices are. Few people who managed to walk away from religion regretted the decision.
The strange thing is that the herd instinct is working for in a lot of other areas as well. I am a member of a political party here in Norway. I still am despite that I usually vote at another party. I love the people, the community, the friends I've gotten etc. I just am more radical and should leave, but I won't.
Indeed. The social aspects of belonging are generally okay, unless it it becomes something that takes over a person's life with a detrimental effect. It's delegating one's thinking to others is where people get in trouble. I was taught from birth to never question anything the Catholic Church taught, and I went along with it the way children do. Nature blessed (possibly cursed) me with a rational and skeptical mind. It led me to the realization that if a thing is true, you can question it all you want and it will always be what you come back to. No religion meets that standard. The more I learned, the less I believed. By the time I was twenty I had left it all behind. My father was an unquestioning herd animal till the day he died, and he thought it was a great accomplishment.
We all want to belong to our tribe and be loved within it. This default setting lures everyone to accept dark and destructive behaviors running wild within the tribe, for reformation brings with it personal alienation from your tribe and very likely retaliation.
The abused in this film are courageous and they are on the road to recovery and maybe justice.
It would be nice if this tendency to surrender personal autonomy to charismatic leaders, and for such leaders to abuse that power, were unique to religious people and institutions and one could escape it by leaving religion behind.
Sadly, it seems to be a part of our basic primate instincts.
I recommend reading Sex & God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality by Darrel Ray. He covers it pretty good.
Purity culture is just one tool for controlling women.
My theory is when we were hunter-gatherers, women were venerated as the givers of life. When we moved to an agrarian society, two things happened. 1) We figured out the cause-effect process of pregnancy by breeding animals and realized that "the child is mine." And 2) land became a resource that needed to be protected and passed on to offspring. To ensure the offspring was his and not someone else's, men had to mate-guard their wives, and grafted this into religion. Virginity became the only "sure" sign that a man was going where no man had been before, and thus became a virtue.
And the alternative system, since some men deducted that a maternity test was not necessary (see Matri comment for a good laugh, don't drink), having their nephews for heir.
Setting the record straight. A letter to the editor in my local paper today began like this: "This Thanksgiving we should give some thought to our Pilgrim ancestors, who came to this country because their religious beliefs subjected them to persecution at home. Seeking safety and freedom, they fled to foreign shores."
Whitewash! The Pilgrims weren't seeking safety or freedom and certainly not religious liberty. They had first left England for the nearby Netherlands, which was the most welcoming, open, accepting, and tolerant society on Earth at the time. They couldn't stand it there. Too much variety. Too much competition. What they wanted wasn't religious freedom, they wanted a place where they could rule the roost, ideally someplace where there were no heretical ideas that their kids could be exposed to. The supposedly empty continent just across the Atlantic Ocean seemed ideal for their purposes. Which, to repeat, had nothing to do with freedom of conscience and everything to do with patriarchally dominated groupthink.
Further, they were the one persecuting others for not being ascetic enough. Then after the attitudes of society turned against them, because, you know, people get tired of being persecute, they left. That's like when someone attacks you and you respond in kind, they're just defending themselves, not you.
I react to headlines such as the above with less shock than: "here we go again." That extreme religionists can be perverse and abusive is a long-established fact to me. If I'm reacting to anything, it's more the various and despicable ways they find to be perverse and abusive.
As I said yesterday – it's becoming "not news". Maybe we should just regard all religions as guilty until proven innocent. Of predation or covering it up.
I’m more shocked when a clergy member of any sect is not a depraved criminal. I know it isn’t all of them, or even a majority of them, that commit the acts, but it has to be well know by them all and excused by them.
Actually the term IFB existed long before Anderson. I grew up in a 'Independent Fundamentalist Baptist' church. Now I believe he's responsible for NIFB, which amps up the attempts to acquire secular power to 50 (on a scale of 10)
IFB is more a type of church than an organization though most share considerable dogma. NIFB, for all the supposed 'independence', seems much more homogeneous. It takes all the worst of the fundamentalist dogma and adds an unhealthy dose of politics and open hatred.
I haven't heard bishops saying the government should line gays up and put bullets through their heads. NIFB preachers have said so, multiple and repeatedly.
I think it's going to take one of those bubble charts to show all the connections. They don't just branch off, they crossover, connect, and blend to create even more variations on a theme. Then stuff them all through the Temporal Loom in Loki. Only in reverse.
Thank goodness Christianity isn't meant to make people into better people, because otherwise we might have to categorize this as just a wee bit of a misfire.
Some great, insightful comments on this thread. Lord Acton said it a few hundred years ago: "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely." That obviously can apply to churches as well.
Once again, my wife and I are hosting my best friend of 40+ years at our Thanksgiving dinner. We've been doing this for a while, though a pause during the pandemic, and it's my way of saying how glad I am that he's in my life.
We became the destination house for our families about 20 years ago. Which suits me perfectly. Family, friends, stray cats, friends of friends, sometimes an international student from a nearby college. I love the holiday.
Everyone finally left. The kitchen is almost completely cleaned. Tomorrow I make turkey soup from the carcass. Right now I’m sitting outside at the firepit enjoying a bourbon neat whilst listening to, in no particular order, 70s outlaw country music and Meatloaf’s Bat Out of Hell album.
Today marks the 60th Anniversary of the legendary Doctor Who (except for that 10 year period when they were missing from the airwaves before finally being revitalized). Can't wait to see Ncuti Gatwa (the first openly gay Doctor) make his debut.
Keep in mind: Between 1985 and 2005, there was a TV movie in 1996 that gave us the 8th Doctor and showed Sylvester McCoy regenerating into Paul McGann.
Cynical me thinks that religion was created solely to trap women in bad marriages to abusers and rapists. Just the rules surrounding women’s behaviors, sex, and men’s power. Rational me sees stories like this and shifts further into cynicism.
The more power a religion holds over its adherents, the easier they are to exploit and abuse. The only way to completely eliminate that danger is to give religion no power at all.
I don't believe that would eliminate the danger. Tribal instinct is too strong. Religion exacerbates and exploits that without question, but it would exist without religion and most likely is the cause of religion.
I’ve come to view any religious organization that has Fundamental in their title is one that should be avoided at all costs (late to this as I road tripped to my daughter’s for bird festivities). Hope everyone’s day was peaceful.
Don't forget that a number of the most bass akward anti-American conservative groups have the name "American." American Family Association, American Enterprise Institute, etc.
Most names are just a veneer over less valuable stuff.
I've come to feel that if a name is trying to emphasize too much, then it's definitely NOT what they are. Or worse. That's definitely all they are and nothing more.
This is why we need unions. A union would never go for this clause in most cases. The comments are discussing getting fired rather than quitting and other equally bad advice. Unionizing is the only way to end the trend.
Programs like 𝐿𝑒𝑡 𝑈𝑠 𝑃𝑟𝑒𝑦 and 𝑆ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑦 𝐻𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑦 𝑃𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 are NECESSARY. They are NEEDED, because the general public is mostly completely unaware of the behavior of churches such as those of the IFB, and they damned well need to know. Some of them, and indeed, some of those who are members of IFB churches, just might be moved to take action against them and bring what is undoubtedly MORE such offenses to light.
I salute those who made these documentaries and those who had the fortitude to come forward and tell their stories, and I look forward to more such revelations in the future.
Some of them might be moved to take action? Maybe, but more likely the indoctrination will have them slut shaming the victims and supporting the abusers. God damned purity culture religious bullshit.
I suspect a few IFB members who learn about the depredations of their leaders would be sufficiently disgusted to reject them. I would doubt that there would be many if any at all who would go so far as to become atheists. And of course there would be those who would just shrug their shoulders and go on doing what they were doing, water off a duck's back attitude.
Those are the ones whose humanity I genuinely question.
I had a great aunt who went from fundamentalist Christian to atheist in her eighties. Overnight.
Because there couldn't possibly be a god if Goldwater lost in '64.
The best part of that last sentence? Goldwater wouldn't be welcome in today's Republican party.
Neither would St. Ronnie Raygun.
Well, no. After being shot at he dishonored the patron saint of the Republican party, the NRA.
I do agree. It's not likely to influence those that are in the movement, they have to come to their own realization. If they can.
However, it could more likely deter future people from joining.
The herd instinct runs deep in the human species, and I suspect it may have been part of our survival strategy. Puny little humans survived through banding together for security and the specialization of labor. I think a lot of people belong to churches because they feel a deep need to belong to something. Belonging isn't the root problem, it's the willingness of people to delegate their thinking to others that causes all the trouble. People get caught up in the dynamic of organized religion, and often become blind to what it's doing to them, and blind to what their real choices are. Few people who managed to walk away from religion regretted the decision.
The strange thing is that the herd instinct is working for in a lot of other areas as well. I am a member of a political party here in Norway. I still am despite that I usually vote at another party. I love the people, the community, the friends I've gotten etc. I just am more radical and should leave, but I won't.
Indeed. The social aspects of belonging are generally okay, unless it it becomes something that takes over a person's life with a detrimental effect. It's delegating one's thinking to others is where people get in trouble. I was taught from birth to never question anything the Catholic Church taught, and I went along with it the way children do. Nature blessed (possibly cursed) me with a rational and skeptical mind. It led me to the realization that if a thing is true, you can question it all you want and it will always be what you come back to. No religion meets that standard. The more I learned, the less I believed. By the time I was twenty I had left it all behind. My father was an unquestioning herd animal till the day he died, and he thought it was a great accomplishment.
We all want to belong to our tribe and be loved within it. This default setting lures everyone to accept dark and destructive behaviors running wild within the tribe, for reformation brings with it personal alienation from your tribe and very likely retaliation.
The abused in this film are courageous and they are on the road to recovery and maybe justice.
It would be nice if this tendency to surrender personal autonomy to charismatic leaders, and for such leaders to abuse that power, were unique to religious people and institutions and one could escape it by leaving religion behind.
Sadly, it seems to be a part of our basic primate instincts.
In the case of America's religious right, there is a lot of overlap.
Well, there are worse things to belong to.
Not many, but some.
“𝑊ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑤𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑛 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑏𝑒𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡𝑜𝑙𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑛𝑜 𝑝𝑜𝑤𝑒𝑟, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑚𝑒𝑛 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑔𝑖𝑣𝑒𝑛 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑜𝑤𝑒𝑟, 𝑖𝑡'𝑠 𝑎 𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑓𝑒𝑐𝑡 𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑟𝑚 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑠𝑒𝑥𝑢𝑎𝑙 𝑎𝑏𝑢𝑠𝑒.”
A perfect summary of just how horrifying purity culture is. NONE of this is surprising to me.
I recommend reading Sex & God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality by Darrel Ray. He covers it pretty good.
Purity culture is just one tool for controlling women.
My theory is when we were hunter-gatherers, women were venerated as the givers of life. When we moved to an agrarian society, two things happened. 1) We figured out the cause-effect process of pregnancy by breeding animals and realized that "the child is mine." And 2) land became a resource that needed to be protected and passed on to offspring. To ensure the offspring was his and not someone else's, men had to mate-guard their wives, and grafted this into religion. Virginity became the only "sure" sign that a man was going where no man had been before, and thus became a virtue.
And the alternative system, since some men deducted that a maternity test was not necessary (see Matri comment for a good laugh, don't drink), having their nephews for heir.
Finally found it. OMG! That maternity test thing was hilarious. Total Dunning-Krueger in action. That's why the saying, "Mama's baby, dada maybe."
Imagine the conversation. "I'm late."
"Late for what?"
"My period."
"Oh."
"Don't worry. It's not yours. Turns out it's not even mine."
Sorry for that, I always put new comments first.
No worries. The high volume of responses pushed it down a bit. I just had to "Load More" a few time. Well worth the read.
"The new ID series, premiering Friday, will leave you shocked"
Not really. I'm whatever the opposite of "shocked" is.
Of course not, it's, to quote Disney, a story old as time.
Setting the record straight. A letter to the editor in my local paper today began like this: "This Thanksgiving we should give some thought to our Pilgrim ancestors, who came to this country because their religious beliefs subjected them to persecution at home. Seeking safety and freedom, they fled to foreign shores."
Whitewash! The Pilgrims weren't seeking safety or freedom and certainly not religious liberty. They had first left England for the nearby Netherlands, which was the most welcoming, open, accepting, and tolerant society on Earth at the time. They couldn't stand it there. Too much variety. Too much competition. What they wanted wasn't religious freedom, they wanted a place where they could rule the roost, ideally someplace where there were no heretical ideas that their kids could be exposed to. The supposedly empty continent just across the Atlantic Ocean seemed ideal for their purposes. Which, to repeat, had nothing to do with freedom of conscience and everything to do with patriarchally dominated groupthink.
So? COUNTER-PUNCH! Give those people a lesson in history!
Further, they were the one persecuting others for not being ascetic enough. Then after the attitudes of society turned against them, because, you know, people get tired of being persecute, they left. That's like when someone attacks you and you respond in kind, they're just defending themselves, not you.
Witch trials anyone?
IFB. Founded by Steven 'Don't Tase Me, Bro!' Anderson. Just saying.
Shocked? Sorry, but Christianity and its horrific behavior has long since ceased to shock me. It has become expected.
I react to headlines such as the above with less shock than: "here we go again." That extreme religionists can be perverse and abusive is a long-established fact to me. If I'm reacting to anything, it's more the various and despicable ways they find to be perverse and abusive.
As I said yesterday – it's becoming "not news". Maybe we should just regard all religions as guilty until proven innocent. Of predation or covering it up.
We already do that. What we really need to do is get those who still see religion as harmless to consider our POV.
I’m more shocked when a clergy member of any sect is not a depraved criminal. I know it isn’t all of them, or even a majority of them, that commit the acts, but it has to be well know by them all and excused by them.
The pastors I grew up with were pretty decent and good people. I suppose I was lucky.
This guy agrees with you:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f081966ca9de2c0fb435e8ebbac1a85c3f21630a6221208e2d07afe8660d81ee.jpg
Ahhhh, THAT's my man!
Actually the term IFB existed long before Anderson. I grew up in a 'Independent Fundamentalist Baptist' church. Now I believe he's responsible for NIFB, which amps up the attempts to acquire secular power to 50 (on a scale of 10)
I know he founded the New Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it was affiliated with the IFB.
IFB is more a type of church than an organization though most share considerable dogma. NIFB, for all the supposed 'independence', seems much more homogeneous. It takes all the worst of the fundamentalist dogma and adds an unhealthy dose of politics and open hatred.
When the Southern Baptists are too woke.
Actually, one of the things I heard growing up was that the Southern Baptists were heathens because the local church apparently allowed dancing.
I haven't heard bishops saying the government should line gays up and put bullets through their heads. NIFB preachers have said so, multiple and repeatedly.
Some of them* must think about it, they are just smarter and don't say it loud.
*ofdrumpster extremist catholic sect or society of saint pius X.
A different Steven Anderson founded the NIFB:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Anderson_(pastor)
That's the guy I was referring to. Turns out the IFB predates his NIFB.
So many sects/subsects. It's all so confusing.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4c6be5a5d1ccbdbf06f6ada562b5245dda44b737fc53fca31e1854c56e23f188.jpg
Gonna need a bigger chart.
I think it's going to take one of those bubble charts to show all the connections. They don't just branch off, they crossover, connect, and blend to create even more variations on a theme. Then stuff them all through the Temporal Loom in Loki. Only in reverse.
"Ministry of scandals" sounds like a Monty Python sketch.
Scandal, silly walks. Potayto, potahto.
Thank goodness Christianity isn't meant to make people into better people, because otherwise we might have to categorize this as just a wee bit of a misfire.
So, close call there.
Some great, insightful comments on this thread. Lord Acton said it a few hundred years ago: "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely." That obviously can apply to churches as well.
We should make sure that the pundits on Fox News know all about this program on the ID channel. I’m sure they’ll have a lot to say about it. Lol 😆
THOSE AREN'T PILLOWS!!!
Didn't really care for that movie, miss John Candy though. Haven't seen Steve Martin in a while, but according to IMDB he's got a series going.
𝘖𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘔𝘶𝘳𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘉𝘶𝘪𝘭𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨. With Martin Short and Selena Gomez. The first two seasons were fantastic; it is well worth watching.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Only_Murders_in_the_Building
OT: a very happy thanksgiving to those of you who participate in the holiday.
https://www.thefarside.com/2023/11/23/0
Love that guy.
Once again, my wife and I are hosting my best friend of 40+ years at our Thanksgiving dinner. We've been doing this for a while, though a pause during the pandemic, and it's my way of saying how glad I am that he's in my life.
We became the destination house for our families about 20 years ago. Which suits me perfectly. Family, friends, stray cats, friends of friends, sometimes an international student from a nearby college. I love the holiday.
Everyone finally left. The kitchen is almost completely cleaned. Tomorrow I make turkey soup from the carcass. Right now I’m sitting outside at the firepit enjoying a bourbon neat whilst listening to, in no particular order, 70s outlaw country music and Meatloaf’s Bat Out of Hell album.
“I bet you say that to all the boys.”
It was my late wife's favorite holiday. Heading out shortly to continue the holiday tradition we started.
OT
Today marks the 60th Anniversary of the legendary Doctor Who (except for that 10 year period when they were missing from the airwaves before finally being revitalized). Can't wait to see Ncuti Gatwa (the first openly gay Doctor) make his debut.
"Who are you (who, who, who, who)?
Tell me who are you?"
-The Who (of course)
George Eads and David Tennant in the same thread. Umm... I'll be in my bunk.
So, only 50 years. : )
And the two Peter Cushing movies don't count. :D
Keep in mind: Between 1985 and 2005, there was a TV movie in 1996 that gave us the 8th Doctor and showed Sylvester McCoy regenerating into Paul McGann.
If you didn't live so far you would be more than welcome on the 25th for the release of the first special with David Tennant.
Hoping those 3 specials also see DVD releases.
Just remember, Walgreens (and probably Target) sells Hulu gift cards that can be used to subscribe to Disney+ as an add-on no CC required.
I'll admit I'm not hopeful for a DVD/Blu-ray release. At least not in NA.
I hope so for you and not in an overpriced special box.
50 years and they still can't pick a doctor.
Disagree. I've enjoyed everyone from McGann to Whittaker (and let's not forget Jo Martin).
Ncuti got raves for "Sex Education." Showrunner Russell T. Davies chose his new Time Lord well.
Black and gay ? I imagine the screeching of the "true fans".
And the shrill cries of WOKEISM!!! will be heard throughout the land here.
DM can't wait to have the new season aired here.
I suspect there are several like me who followed from SyFy rather than PBS.
Are you one ?
In the beginning, yes. 𝘋𝘰𝘤𝘵𝘰𝘳 𝘞𝘩𝘰 was followed by 𝘙𝘦𝘥 𝘋𝘸𝘢𝘳𝘧.
Hu ho, I just read something who may be not good for you. The new season will be released on Disney+.
So will have a huge budget – but will it be better?
I've been buying full season DVDs of the series and binging. Hope the trend continues.
Cynical me thinks that religion was created solely to trap women in bad marriages to abusers and rapists. Just the rules surrounding women’s behaviors, sex, and men’s power. Rational me sees stories like this and shifts further into cynicism.
Biblical marriage was always about property, not love. The man not only owned what he owned, he owned both the woman's property and the woman herself.
The free food for the shaman was an incentive as well as all the women he could handle.
Sounds about right.
On further consideration, realistic me knows that is only the tool of religion to get their true purpose, power and money.
The more power a religion holds over its adherents, the easier they are to exploit and abuse. The only way to completely eliminate that danger is to give religion no power at all.
I don't believe that would eliminate the danger. Tribal instinct is too strong. Religion exacerbates and exploits that without question, but it would exist without religion and most likely is the cause of religion.
I’ve come to view any religious organization that has Fundamental in their title is one that should be avoided at all costs (late to this as I road tripped to my daughter’s for bird festivities). Hope everyone’s day was peaceful.
Also "liberty" or "family".
If all three are present in the title you should really NOPE the fuck out of there...
Also, "tradition" or "traditional" are huge warning signs.
Don't forget those that advertise themselves as "bible based."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RXiXHZeS2-0
Don't forget that a number of the most bass akward anti-American conservative groups have the name "American." American Family Association, American Enterprise Institute, etc.
Most names are just a veneer over less valuable stuff.
I've come to feel that if a name is trying to emphasize too much, then it's definitely NOT what they are. Or worse. That's definitely all they are and nothing more.
Just like the group moms for liberty. What liberty??? What a joke!!
OT: Now they're charging you to quit your shitty job:
https://slashdot.org/story/23/11/23/1836220/some-firms-are-demanding-steep-repayments-if-staff-depart
(Source story is paywalled)
This is why we need unions. A union would never go for this clause in most cases. The comments are discussing getting fired rather than quitting and other equally bad advice. Unionizing is the only way to end the trend.
I can understand a company wanting an employee to return a sign-on bonus if they quit within a certain period, but this is ridiculous.
And you probably can't take them to court and will be slapped with an NDA by the arbitrator so you can't warn anyone else.
I should have typed: I can understand a company 𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐢𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 an employee to return a sign-on bonus . . .
Have you heard of Hardspace: Shipbreaker?
Upon signing on to the company, they present you with a bill.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3b5f6b9579f7126c3364f0614c3dad293ab510442e65e7b5ab8ab7c80f629dca.png
Oh, and they also charge you for presenting you with the bill. That item at the bottom.
You know it's a shitty workplace when they charge you to work there.