Conversion therapy represents the mentality that fueled the Inquisition. The evangelicals can talk about their loving Jesus from now on, but there is nothing they crave so much as power in this earthly realm. Power few groups would be more ill-equipped to exercise. They would fashion the world of their dreams around the worst parts of the Old Testament and conversion therapy would just be the beginning.
Not only is it the mentality of the Inquisition, some of them would like to apply the tools of the Inquisition. Just a few short steps from psychological torture to physical torture. (See Pearl, Michael and Debi.)
When their "divine sanction" tells them to "fix" people who aren't broken, it's a sign their god is an asshole. When the people are children and the "fix" involves torture, that god isn't just an asshole, he is a monster.
Formerly there were those who said: You believe things that are incomprehensible, inconsistent, impossible because we have commanded you to believe them; go then and do what is injust because we command it. Such people show admirable reasoning. Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. If the God-given understanding of your mind does not resist a demand to believe what is impossible, then you will not resist a demand to do wrong to that God-given sense of justice in your heart. As soon as one faculty of your soul has been dominated, other faculties will follow as well. And from this derives all those crimes of religion which have overrun the world.
Norman Lewis Torrey, Les Philosophes: The Philosophers of the Enlightenment and Modern Democracy (1961), in a discussion of Voltaire
But are they really-really convinced they are operating under gods authority/ divine sanction......OR, are they just psycho control freaks, racists, bigots in their own hearts and minds. I think a large portion fall in the latter category, hiding behind the bible and the guise as their insulation.
Like claiming to be "concerned" about immigration policy to cover up the fact you hate everyone not white & blue eyed.
[As if they can’t practice their religion without torturing kids along the way.]
Some Christian denominations can. But Evangelical conservatives can't.
From the age of two or three or four, you are introduced to "the gospel" or "good news". This "good news" is that you are broken. You are corrupt. There is something wrong with you deep within you. God, who is all powerful and all loving, cannot stand to look at you because of how wrong and broken you are. You repulse him. You make him want to throw you away into a pit of fire to be burned forever. And nothing you do will ever be good enough. Nothing. This is what you deserve. Because you're disgusting, wretched, flawed, and wicked.
Oh, but it's okay, because Jesus came and got brutally, bloodily murdered for you as a human sacrifice. So if you believe really sincerely in Jesus, then God will see Jesus instead of you and he'll be able to tolerate your disgusting, filthy, horrible self. But only if you really believe. And if you really believe you won't be as horrible as you are now, you little shit. So beg Jesus to save you. Beg him.
Now, your school teachers will say some stuff about science. Don't believe it. It's all lies. They're lying about science, dinosaurs, stars, and everything.
Except sports. Sports are okay.
Also stay away from the opposite gender. Getting too close to them is wrong. Why? Fuck you, that's why. It just is. Don't play with dolls and don't play house with them. Play football. You'll thank me later.
Also, everything you like is Satanic. Satan is behind it all. Your cartoons. Your music. Your books. It's all Satan trying to lead you away from God and straight to Hell.
Now that you're old enough to be attracted to other people, know that your body is disgusting and sinful and wrong. Don't listen to it. If you do, you're sinning and do you even believe in Jesus? You know what he went through for you? You ungrateful shit. Follow the rules or else! Pray harder. Read your Bible more. Go to church more! Feel worse about your sins. You can't trust your body or your heart, they're wicked beyond comprehension!
And that was just part of what I went through as a straight CIS male. You know... one of the people they consider "normal". Girls had it worse. And while I can't speak for them, I can only surmise that being LGBTQ was a never-ending nightmare for most people.
Fundamentalists should not be allowed around any children, but especially LGBTQ children.
As I read your comment I thought “this is firsthand experience”. I know because it was my childhood, word for word. Evangelical indoctrination is tantamount to child abuse.
Giid for the children, let just hope any transgression will be squashed.
"As usual, they couched their cruelty in the language of God’s supposed love, and it didn’t take a Ph.D. to read between the lines."
It's the same people who.would discourage women from divorcing abusive husbands. As you say, such love.
I just want to add a reminder, the "greatest democracy in the world" is the last UN country that has not ratified the Convention on the right of the child. And every time poorer countries are accused to kill children in the name of witchcraft, faith based healing is not better, especially in a country with a superior medical technology.
This is exactly why it's a good thing that Harris didn't select any of the Democratic governors in red states or swing states as her VP. People like Beshear are needed far too desperately at home, to do things like this.
I've been impressed with Andy Beshear since I first heard of him. That he's willing to take this bold action is an indicator of how much he cares about the minorities in the Bluegrass State. As for those fundamentalists who want to accuse Beshear of muzzling them, I think they need to look at what they're doing and understand the harm that they are potentially causing.
Or the children as a whole. Who is to say that with the LGBTQI+ send to these torture chambers, there is not also straight kids who refuse to conform to rigid gender roles ?
It's a statistical certainty. There are 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘺 parents out there conservative enough that they'd ship their kid off to be mind-flayed just because they decided to grow their hair out, or cut it short, or wear the wrong color, or listen to the wrong kind of music, and on and on and 𝘰𝘯.
One of my favorite stories from DM youth, one of her cousins loved to play with her dolls. When his parents knew, they bought him dolls and a mini stroller. It was in the 50's.
At my place, the Disney Princess Cupcake game was a favorite of two different boys, through the age range 3-8 y.o. 10-boy-years of play out of that one, so a solid purchase. :)
This whole thing boils down to a group of people who refuse to believe that any sexuality beyond their 'straight' one is wrong and is the result of 'confusion' not brain wiring. It is their faith against science. They are continually propagandized and enculted. As Mark Twain said: "you cannot reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into."
It's also faith against Jesus. The dude in the story is a pretty severe ascetic. "Don't have sex" seems to cover his position on the matter. But they morphed that into 'do have sex, but only this one way.'
True. I was born into a fundy household, and it took me several decades after reaching adulthood to shake the last of that mindfuckery off. And sometimes, I wonder if I still haven't managed to shake it off completely.
OT : DM continues to get better. Her IRM didn't show any problems, she doesn't need a permanent dialysis anymore, they diminished the meds for her blood pressure and stopped the antibiotics. She is still in her artificial coma with a ventilator.
Google “Christianity torture” and you’ll find more books and ugly drawings than you’d ever care to read or see. Good for Governor Beshear. It’s a win-win. A win for LGBTQ+ rights and a win for pissing off those who enjoy tormenting others in some else’s name. I suggest they purchase a discipline and learn to enjoy self flagellation.
I mentioned this story in an early post on yesterday's article. Glad to see Beshear's decency/humanity got Hemant's attention.
The world could do with a lot more Christians like Gov. Beshear and lot less of the hateful, intolerant Christians who do their damnedest to undermine their brethren's attempts to live up to their savior's more compassionate teachings.
No, they have made it abundantly clear that they cannot practice their version of Christianity without torturing children. Threats of hell, telling them they are horribly evil and broken for existing, and conversion therapy; all of it torture.
Kudos to Governor Beshear for doing as much as he possibly can. But with the NSGOP running the legislature for the forseeable future, it isn't really enough. The ban will go away as soon as they manage to put a Republican in his chair.
Needless to say, I get an urge to see conversion therapy performed on heterosexuals who advocate the practice for LGBTQs. A taste of their own medicine, so to speak. I sincerely doubt they'd like that taste.
Can you imagine the reaction by those hypocritical straights if such a thing were to actually occur? And we've seen the harm Christians have done to others since 380CE. What would happen if we used conversion therapy on kkkonservative kkkhristians to free them of their religion?
Do I really need to say how THEY'D react if the shoe were on the other foot for a change? THEY'D sure as shit scream TORTURE!!! Not to mention CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION!!!
In this case, what I'd like to see more of is good social and economic support for the kids, so that they are no longer so dependent on repressive family adults for survival or growth.
If the so-called Christians would worry more about their problems and leave other people alone they’d be a lot better off— and quit trying to brainwash children to believe in Jesus Christ.
There is no real evidence he ever existed. Sorry, but that is a fact.
But, but, but they found poop in a cave they think was Jesus’ tomb. There! No doubt that Jesus existed. Why else would there be poop in a tomb? Dead people don’t poop.
Problem is, they can't do that. They've got their Great Commission to accomplish, and they are determined to make that happen. If people's rights get stepped on, that's simply collateral damage.
The collateral damage is a feature, not a bug. How can they consider themselves "𝘞𝘢𝘳𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘳𝘴 for Christ" if their war doesn't even hurt anyone? That'd just be silly! The screams of the heathens and the heretics are how you know you're Jesusing hard enough!
If my experience means anything, kids would be better off NEVER hearing so much as a peep about JFC.
As much fun as it was to sing "Away in a Manger" or "Little Drummer Boy" in the Children's Christmas pageant, Baby Jesus soon turned into Second Coming Jesus, who would just as soon fry your ass in hell as look at you.
Gov. Beshar chose the sensible, humane option. Of course the Reichwing is pissed off. They don't speak any language but cruelty and blind self-righteousness.
“That’s what conservative Christians are complaining about. Inhumanity is apparently the basis of their faith.“
The entire right wing of our country is all about spreading inhumanity. Abortion bans are inhumane, see Georgia this week. Conversion therapy is inhumane. The immigration system is inhumane, Trump’s solution stooped to new lows of inhumanity and they loved it. The shit the republicans pull on every fucking budget motion in congress is inhumane, playing with shutting down the government to get the cruel policies they want passed, playing with ordinary people’s livelihoods just for political power, is inhumane. Every single decision made in all the gop run legislatures across the country is made by being heartless and cruel. We say cruelty is the point but it is also a game to them to see how inhumane they can be.
Thank you Beshear. For doing the right thing and standing up to the bullies, for once.
Conversion therapy represents the mentality that fueled the Inquisition. The evangelicals can talk about their loving Jesus from now on, but there is nothing they crave so much as power in this earthly realm. Power few groups would be more ill-equipped to exercise. They would fashion the world of their dreams around the worst parts of the Old Testament and conversion therapy would just be the beginning.
Not only is it the mentality of the Inquisition, some of them would like to apply the tools of the Inquisition. Just a few short steps from psychological torture to physical torture. (See Pearl, Michael and Debi.)
+++ Once people become convinced they're operating under divine sanction, they're capable of any horror.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
When their "divine sanction" tells them to "fix" people who aren't broken, it's a sign their god is an asshole. When the people are children and the "fix" involves torture, that god isn't just an asshole, he is a monster.
Their God always seems to tell them what they want to hear.
This is because their conversations with Yahweh aren't conversations. They are monologues.
And the one talking ain’t god.
Formerly there were those who said: You believe things that are incomprehensible, inconsistent, impossible because we have commanded you to believe them; go then and do what is injust because we command it. Such people show admirable reasoning. Truly, whoever can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. If the God-given understanding of your mind does not resist a demand to believe what is impossible, then you will not resist a demand to do wrong to that God-given sense of justice in your heart. As soon as one faculty of your soul has been dominated, other faculties will follow as well. And from this derives all those crimes of religion which have overrun the world.
Norman Lewis Torrey, Les Philosophes: The Philosophers of the Enlightenment and Modern Democracy (1961), in a discussion of Voltaire
And this is why (almost) all religions scares me.
Excellent. And perfectly describes the christo-fascists.
But are they really-really convinced they are operating under gods authority/ divine sanction......OR, are they just psycho control freaks, racists, bigots in their own hearts and minds. I think a large portion fall in the latter category, hiding behind the bible and the guise as their insulation.
Like claiming to be "concerned" about immigration policy to cover up the fact you hate everyone not white & blue eyed.
A lot of them are psycho control freaks and racists and misogynistics and a lot of them knows it.
Why not both?
Or the turpins.
And their house of horrors.
I would like to see someone "blanket train" those two child-hating dumpster fires. They have darkened the lives of too many children.
As I've said before, if gay people could recruit, Ryan Reynolds would not be married to a woman.
[As if they can’t practice their religion without torturing kids along the way.]
Some Christian denominations can. But Evangelical conservatives can't.
From the age of two or three or four, you are introduced to "the gospel" or "good news". This "good news" is that you are broken. You are corrupt. There is something wrong with you deep within you. God, who is all powerful and all loving, cannot stand to look at you because of how wrong and broken you are. You repulse him. You make him want to throw you away into a pit of fire to be burned forever. And nothing you do will ever be good enough. Nothing. This is what you deserve. Because you're disgusting, wretched, flawed, and wicked.
Oh, but it's okay, because Jesus came and got brutally, bloodily murdered for you as a human sacrifice. So if you believe really sincerely in Jesus, then God will see Jesus instead of you and he'll be able to tolerate your disgusting, filthy, horrible self. But only if you really believe. And if you really believe you won't be as horrible as you are now, you little shit. So beg Jesus to save you. Beg him.
Now, your school teachers will say some stuff about science. Don't believe it. It's all lies. They're lying about science, dinosaurs, stars, and everything.
Except sports. Sports are okay.
Also stay away from the opposite gender. Getting too close to them is wrong. Why? Fuck you, that's why. It just is. Don't play with dolls and don't play house with them. Play football. You'll thank me later.
Also, everything you like is Satanic. Satan is behind it all. Your cartoons. Your music. Your books. It's all Satan trying to lead you away from God and straight to Hell.
Now that you're old enough to be attracted to other people, know that your body is disgusting and sinful and wrong. Don't listen to it. If you do, you're sinning and do you even believe in Jesus? You know what he went through for you? You ungrateful shit. Follow the rules or else! Pray harder. Read your Bible more. Go to church more! Feel worse about your sins. You can't trust your body or your heart, they're wicked beyond comprehension!
And that was just part of what I went through as a straight CIS male. You know... one of the people they consider "normal". Girls had it worse. And while I can't speak for them, I can only surmise that being LGBTQ was a never-ending nightmare for most people.
Fundamentalists should not be allowed around any children, but especially LGBTQ children.
As I read your comment I thought “this is firsthand experience”. I know because it was my childhood, word for word. Evangelical indoctrination is tantamount to child abuse.
JFC that is so awful, I am so sorry you had to endure that mental abuse.
Giid for the children, let just hope any transgression will be squashed.
"As usual, they couched their cruelty in the language of God’s supposed love, and it didn’t take a Ph.D. to read between the lines."
It's the same people who.would discourage women from divorcing abusive husbands. As you say, such love.
I just want to add a reminder, the "greatest democracy in the world" is the last UN country that has not ratified the Convention on the right of the child. And every time poorer countries are accused to kill children in the name of witchcraft, faith based healing is not better, especially in a country with a superior medical technology.
"Love thy neighbor...unless they are people of color or immigrants or women or LGBTQ...those people thy shall not love."
Fake and evil Christians! They have broken more Commandments than atheists!
That's why I love wearing this rainbow flag T in front of them 👇
https://libtees-2.creator-spring.com/listing/wtpmelb
Ooh, I like that shirt!
So do I! EXCELLENT!!!
😉
Yet another reminder that there is no hate like Christian love.
This is exactly why it's a good thing that Harris didn't select any of the Democratic governors in red states or swing states as her VP. People like Beshear are needed far too desperately at home, to do things like this.
I've been impressed with Andy Beshear since I first heard of him. That he's willing to take this bold action is an indicator of how much he cares about the minorities in the Bluegrass State. As for those fundamentalists who want to accuse Beshear of muzzling them, I think they need to look at what they're doing and understand the harm that they are potentially causing.
Who am I kidding? Of course they won't!
Or the children as a whole. Who is to say that with the LGBTQI+ send to these torture chambers, there is not also straight kids who refuse to conform to rigid gender roles ?
It's a statistical certainty. There are 𝘢𝘣𝘴𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘺 parents out there conservative enough that they'd ship their kid off to be mind-flayed just because they decided to grow their hair out, or cut it short, or wear the wrong color, or listen to the wrong kind of music, and on and on and 𝘰𝘯.
How many children were beaten for using a pencil with their left hand?
One of my favorite stories from DM youth, one of her cousins loved to play with her dolls. When his parents knew, they bought him dolls and a mini stroller. It was in the 50's.
Wow! You don't get a lot more forward-thinking than that, sure as hell considering that was 70 years ago!
One of the parents was a child of DM's grandmother.
At my place, the Disney Princess Cupcake game was a favorite of two different boys, through the age range 3-8 y.o. 10-boy-years of play out of that one, so a solid purchase. :)
"Mind-flayed" is brilliant!
This whole thing boils down to a group of people who refuse to believe that any sexuality beyond their 'straight' one is wrong and is the result of 'confusion' not brain wiring. It is their faith against science. They are continually propagandized and enculted. As Mark Twain said: "you cannot reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into."
That’s one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes.
It's also faith against Jesus. The dude in the story is a pretty severe ascetic. "Don't have sex" seems to cover his position on the matter. But they morphed that into 'do have sex, but only this one way.'
Actually you can, but it takes the patience of a saint ... Or Peter Boghossian
I love that quote and did not know it was Twain’s
Twain is pretty much my all-time favorite curmudgeon.
True. I was born into a fundy household, and it took me several decades after reaching adulthood to shake the last of that mindfuckery off. And sometimes, I wonder if I still haven't managed to shake it off completely.
OT : DM continues to get better. Her IRM didn't show any problems, she doesn't need a permanent dialysis anymore, they diminished the meds for her blood pressure and stopped the antibiotics. She is still in her artificial coma with a ventilator.
Google “Christianity torture” and you’ll find more books and ugly drawings than you’d ever care to read or see. Good for Governor Beshear. It’s a win-win. A win for LGBTQ+ rights and a win for pissing off those who enjoy tormenting others in some else’s name. I suggest they purchase a discipline and learn to enjoy self flagellation.
I mentioned this story in an early post on yesterday's article. Glad to see Beshear's decency/humanity got Hemant's attention.
The world could do with a lot more Christians like Gov. Beshear and lot less of the hateful, intolerant Christians who do their damnedest to undermine their brethren's attempts to live up to their savior's more compassionate teachings.
𝐼𝑡’𝑠 𝑡𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑠𝑒 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑘 𝑎 𝑝𝑜𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑦 𝑚𝑒𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝑡𝑜 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑡𝑒𝑐𝑡 𝑐ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑑𝑟𝑒𝑛 𝑖𝑠 𝑚𝑢𝑧𝑧𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑠. 𝐴𝑠 𝑖𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑐𝑎𝑛’𝑡 𝑝𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡𝑜𝑟𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑘𝑖𝑑𝑠 𝑎𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑦.
No, they have made it abundantly clear that they cannot practice their version of Christianity without torturing children. Threats of hell, telling them they are horribly evil and broken for existing, and conversion therapy; all of it torture.
Kudos to Governor Beshear for doing as much as he possibly can. But with the NSGOP running the legislature for the forseeable future, it isn't really enough. The ban will go away as soon as they manage to put a Republican in his chair.
*sigh*
One step forward, three steps back. Again.
Needless to say, I get an urge to see conversion therapy performed on heterosexuals who advocate the practice for LGBTQs. A taste of their own medicine, so to speak. I sincerely doubt they'd like that taste.
Can you imagine the reaction by those hypocritical straights if such a thing were to actually occur? And we've seen the harm Christians have done to others since 380CE. What would happen if we used conversion therapy on kkkonservative kkkhristians to free them of their religion?
Do I really need to say how THEY'D react if the shoe were on the other foot for a change? THEY'D sure as shit scream TORTURE!!! Not to mention CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION!!!
"Living well is the best revenge."
In this case, what I'd like to see more of is good social and economic support for the kids, so that they are no longer so dependent on repressive family adults for survival or growth.
Like those brave, reichwing clowns who advocated for waterboarding, and then never showed up for the experience when offered.
If the so-called Christians would worry more about their problems and leave other people alone they’d be a lot better off— and quit trying to brainwash children to believe in Jesus Christ.
There is no real evidence he ever existed. Sorry, but that is a fact.
But, but, but they found poop in a cave they think was Jesus’ tomb. There! No doubt that Jesus existed. Why else would there be poop in a tomb? Dead people don’t poop.
Fake fake news ! Jesus' real tomb is at Talpiot and was buried under a cement slab by Jewish autorities to prevent the world to know the truth* !
* Argument used in a fauxcumentary 🙄
No, no, no. Jesus is under the Meadowlands stadium (where American football is played) with Jimmy Hoffa. (Do I need to explain Hoffa?)
J'aurais besoin d'une preuve en béton armé.
Who's Jimmy Hoffa? (kidding)
Is that the version with the Knights Templar? Or am I conflating them with another group?
No sé, I watch fauxcumentaries as a hobby, I saw so many of them it's hard to remember every detail.
Problem is, they can't do that. They've got their Great Commission to accomplish, and they are determined to make that happen. If people's rights get stepped on, that's simply collateral damage.
The collateral damage is a feature, not a bug. How can they consider themselves "𝘞𝘢𝘳𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘳𝘴 for Christ" if their war doesn't even hurt anyone? That'd just be silly! The screams of the heathens and the heretics are how you know you're Jesusing hard enough!
I hear you. It’s just that I’m a street epistemologist and have a neatness obsession. It’s almost involuntary. ;-)
If my experience means anything, kids would be better off NEVER hearing so much as a peep about JFC.
As much fun as it was to sing "Away in a Manger" or "Little Drummer Boy" in the Children's Christmas pageant, Baby Jesus soon turned into Second Coming Jesus, who would just as soon fry your ass in hell as look at you.
Gov. Beshar chose the sensible, humane option. Of course the Reichwing is pissed off. They don't speak any language but cruelty and blind self-righteousness.
Bu bu bu jeezy sez so...
For a moment I thought you were Black Hole Mourner posting in French.
Beshear's actions will both save children and piss off reich-wingers. Good, and good.
“That’s what conservative Christians are complaining about. Inhumanity is apparently the basis of their faith.“
The entire right wing of our country is all about spreading inhumanity. Abortion bans are inhumane, see Georgia this week. Conversion therapy is inhumane. The immigration system is inhumane, Trump’s solution stooped to new lows of inhumanity and they loved it. The shit the republicans pull on every fucking budget motion in congress is inhumane, playing with shutting down the government to get the cruel policies they want passed, playing with ordinary people’s livelihoods just for political power, is inhumane. Every single decision made in all the gop run legislatures across the country is made by being heartless and cruel. We say cruelty is the point but it is also a game to them to see how inhumane they can be.
Thank you Beshear. For doing the right thing and standing up to the bullies, for once.
The Republicans want to be bullies, and they want their bullying behavior approved by law. It is damn near that simple.
Not just approved by law, they want their bullying to BE the law.
It scares the Hell out of me.
Kudos, Andy! Mental abuse is not (or should be) religious expression