238 Comments

Few things could be more damaging to organized religion than genuinely teaching comparative religion, and the historicity of religion to teenagers. The evangelicals want their religion inserted in the public schools, where it would be taught as fact. Their obsession with indoctrinating children before they have reached the age of reason speaks directly to just how weak their arguments are.

Expand full comment

Early exposure to different Christian sects is what gave me the tools to later denounce religion. Learning about Islam and other religious histories helped me on my journey to atheism.

Expand full comment

I don't think I realized it at the time, but that class may have started my journey. I stopped going to church every Sunday when I was 16, mostly just disgusted with the pomp and circumstance and the women who did all the work and were barely acknowledged.

I didn't actually "come out" until I was 41 and in a 12 step rehab, which depends heavily on God saving you (ugh).

Expand full comment

I have long contended that the staggering number of Christian sects should be a bigger problem for believers than it is. It is a situation people have gotten used to, and they seldom stop to think about the absurdity of a divine being who could will the universe into existence, being unable to make himself understood.

Expand full comment

Or the apparent oddity of switching sects for marriage or the like.

One of my previous romantic partners did that when she got married - went from Christian Scientist to Catholic. I have so far resisted the temptation to ask her if getting married showed her the error of her previous beliefs, or if it's not a big deal because they're essentially interchangeable.

Expand full comment

The only problem is it's getting worse instead of better.

Tennessee trying to get the Ten Commandments put in every school room, Prager U videos (Dennis Prager says that is "good indoctrination"), prayers on the football field, book bans, etc.

I am on TikTok primarily because of the excellent atheism content, so many smart people and so much discussion, I really enjoy it.

Expand full comment

The more I learned about other religions, the more doubtful I became about my own.

Expand full comment

When I was a kid, my pentecostal church youth group made a few trips to worship services of other religions, in an effort to promote understanding of others. Why are the fundies so upset about that sort of thing now? (No need to answer, we all know why.)

Expand full comment

We studied various world religions in literature in high school, a great way to learn about all the conflicting stories in many religions and so many similarities!

And would someone please inform Christians that Allah of Islam and God of the Bible are the same "being"? They get so hostile when you tell them that!

Expand full comment

They freak out because they think that "Allah" 𝘮𝘶𝘴𝘵 be a different god since it isn't the English word "god". They deliberately ignore the fact that "allah" is just the Arabic word for god, like "dios" is Spanish for the same thing.

Expand full comment

Allah = El(ohim)

Expand full comment

They wouldn't know a cognate if it bit them on the ass.

Expand full comment

That's a brand of toothpaste, right? :P

Expand full comment

Nah, it's Gearnate's brother!

Expand full comment

Sounds like 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘶𝘯𝘪𝘴𝘮 to me!

Expand full comment

And Elohim is a plural word.

< Hebrew ĕlōhīm, plural of ĕlôah god, but often construed as singular with sense ‘God’ or ‘a god’.

Oxford English Dictionary, s.v. “Elohim, n., Etymology”, September 2023. <https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/2748584617>

Judaism had multiple gods at the time but most Christians do not like to be told (I almost wrote "reminded") but it seems very few are told that in the first place.

Expand full comment

My Baptist elementary school taught us about Islam in social studies classes. We had to learn about the five pillars.

If you're less reasonable than an 80's fundie school... wow.

Expand full comment

"They were not informed of the kidnappings, beheadings, slave-trading, massacres, and persecution of non-Muslims, nor of the repression of women — all done in the name of Islam."

Matthew 7:5 "Pluck the plank from your own eye"

Expand full comment

I really wanted to go after them for that massive hypocrisy, but Hemant beat me to it.

Expand full comment

I remember reading historical accounts of christian leaders stating that African slavery was actually good because it christianized the heathens.

I asked a Sunday School teacher about it (back before I realized Such Questions were Not Allowed) asking that if christianizing heathens was the goal, why not just send missionaries instead of taking them away from their homes, villages, etc...can't remember now exactly how I worded it, but basically it was why not just send missionaries like we did to other countries.

I also don't remember much about that long rambling non-answer, except that it didn't answer my question. After a couple "but what about...." interjections from trying to get back to my original query, I was told firmly that the-discussion-is-over-now-let's-please-get-back-to-the-lesson-at-hand.

Expand full comment

"They learned skills" - Ron DeNazi... DeSanctimonious... DeDouchebag... I can never remember how to spell his name.

Expand full comment

DeSeptic, Deathsentence...

Expand full comment

Denazillon, the ambition but not the shoulders. In other words an ersatz.

Expand full comment

His name is Legion, for they are many.

Expand full comment

DeSanitarium.

Expand full comment

A sanitarium was supposed to help sick people. Denazillon is more inclined to walk on them.

Expand full comment

Walk is the nicest thing he does on them.

Expand full comment

Further proof that Christians refuse to take responsibilities for their actions.

Expand full comment

Catholic priests seem to be issued a stock answer for questions like that, "It's a holy mystery."

Expand full comment

That statement by the Thomas More Law Center lawyer makes it sound as if the lawsuit was based around the premise that "anything not overtly critical of Islam"="proselytizing."

Expand full comment

Just like "anything not actively promoting Christianity" = "persecution".

Expand full comment

This has probably already been said, but if they want students exposed to the bloody history of Islam, then it's only right and fair and consistent (yeah, I know) to expose those students to the bloody history of Christianity in the Middle East and Europe and just introduce them to the full Old Testament to show the bloody history of Judaism. Then when doing Asian cultures they can introduce the bloody history of Hinduism and Buddhism. I don't believe there is a single religion whose extremists haven't soaked it in blood.

Expand full comment

Hemant mentioned their hypocrisy/projection in the article. He phrased it the following way:

"I assure you, there's no shortage of similar games we could play about the harm inflicted by Christians throughout history right up through the present day."

Expand full comment
Comment removed
Oct 19, 2023
Comment removed
Expand full comment

Answer: NOT BLOODY LONG!!!

Expand full comment

Jerusalem is a holy city to 3 major religions. How much blood has been and continues to be spilt over that dusty piece of land?

Expand full comment

Christians LOVE indoctrination into religion as long as it's theirs.

Expand full comment

Imagine having kids learn about other cultures. The horror. Is that "woke"? I can never be sure anymore. /s

Expand full comment

"Define woke. Depends who's using it.

a) Culturally aware.

b) Insufficiently bigoted.

It's not that hard."

Expand full comment

And the opposite of "woke" must be "asleep". Which of the alternatives would be a better quality for a legislator or administrator?

Expand full comment

The opposite "woke" is "comatose."

Expand full comment

Comatose: my foot has gone to sleep.

Source: no dictionary, ever.

Expand full comment

Everything's woke if it pisses certain people off.

Expand full comment

I can quite honestly say I'm sick of religious people suing public schools over their own refusal to accept reality. I can't help but feel like it's part of yet another attempt to defund public education, and I'm starting to wonder if maybe some sort of penalty for losing these cases shouldn't be instituted for a while.

I also find it telling that these cases are near always brought by some extremely conservative Christian parent who doesn't want their precious little darling's bubble burst. That is in itself an indictment of just how weak Christianity is as a faith; it must be propped up by everyone to keep a kid on that path. I don't think the individuals crisis of faith is a societal problem, and I don't see why any society should need to prop up anyone's faith for them. Recent generations aren't leaving Christianity because they don't understand it or they don't remember it; they're leaving because they don't like it and have had more than enough. A few lessons on what Muslims believe isn't the problem here.

Also, I've about had enough of this idea that parents need or deserve more rights over their children's lives. Seems to me that part of the issue is how many 'rights' parents already have; in some cases parents seem to have the right to abuse their kids without a peep from the government. I'm not going to name names here (there really isn't enough space) but we do seem to find out how bad it was well after the fact, and homeschooling isn't helping. What I truly object to here is the idea that children are owned by their parents like pets, I feel like that's an unhealthy attitude stemming from and leading to bad ideas. Maybe I'm off base here, but some days it really does seem that way.

Expand full comment

They only care about "Parents' Rights" when the rights the parents are asserting align with 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 worldview. Parent wants their kid's curriculum censored to protect their "right" to indoctrinate Junior as they please? That's a-ok. Parent wants their kid to receive a comprehensive education about their own body? 𝘎𝘳𝘰𝘰𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘨! Parent wants to have their queer kid forcibly outed, even if it puts them in danger (most likely 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 said parent)? That's groovy- but the second it's a parent being 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦 of their kid's identity instead, they want the government to reach 𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵 in there and shut that shit down (though as cdbunch noted, they assert an absolute right to make medical decisions for their own kids 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯 𝘪𝘧 𝘪𝘵 𝘬𝘪𝘭𝘭𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘮).

"Parents' Rights" is in the same class of half-assed ass-covering, of attempts to insert religious indoctrination and anti-LGBTQ bigotry into public schools and elsewhere, as "States' Rights" is for the Civil War being about anything other than the right to own other human beings. It's a deliberate generalization of the issues at hand to avoid having to drill down on specifics that would make them look like the villainous shitstains they are.

Expand full comment

All medical decisions for their children 'Conservatives' agree with. If you want gender-affirming care for your kid then you need to be investigated for child abuse by children's services. Or so says my 'illustrious' 🤮🤮🤮🤮 governor.

Expand full comment

Several states allow parents to kill their kids by refusing actual medical treatment in favor of 'faith'. (I don't want to think about the holistic woo other kids are subjected to instead of medicine)

Expand full comment

"Maybe I'm off base here..."

Naw, home run.

Expand full comment

"There is no God but Allah."

Christians don't even realize that Allah isn't a name. It's the Arabic word for God (al-illah, or "the God") and doesn't need a name.

Expand full comment

What the average Christian doesn't know could fill libraries.

Which that same average Christian would then try to burn.

Expand full comment

Christians love burning libraries. Alexandria, anyone?

Christians hate knowledge more than they hate their Satan.

Expand full comment

Isn't the whole story about Adam, Eve, the snake, and the apple to teach that knowledge is evil?

Expand full comment

What it unintentionally teaches is that YWVH is an idiot.

He places all knowledge in a piece of fruit, hangs it from a tree in their presence and tells them not to eat from it. He's all-knowing, so he knows what's going to happen but he does it anyway. Dumb. Dumb dumb DUMB!

And he has the gall to blame Adam and Eve for his own incompetence (not before Adam blames "the woman," of course. Thus jump-starting the misogyny of the patriarchal Abrahamic religions).

Expand full comment

The Pak explanation makes more sense. But then Larry Niven is actually a somewhat talented writer.

Expand full comment

Father: "Hey HG, what do you think of my garden?"

Holy Ghost: "Why does it have a bring-death-to-the-universe button? That seems remarkably risky. And unnecessary."

Father: "Bah! What do yo know? You're a ghost. " BLAM!

"Hey Jesus, what do you think of my garden and it's wonderful awesome death-to-the-universe-button?"

Jesus: [looks at remains of HG] "Oh it's a great button. But I'd put it on a higher limb. Y'know, like, Redwood branch high."

Father: "Everyone's a critic. I don't need this. You go away for 2,000 years." BLAM!

Expand full comment

Basically he blames people who don't understand right from wrong for not understanding breaking the rules is wrong. It's like punishing a puppy who hasn't learned to be housebroken for peeing on the carpet.

Expand full comment

Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Grden of Eden makes no sense at all. How can there be evil in a "perfect" creation where Adam and Eve are the only two people? Where "the serpent" hasn't been mentioned yet? And isn't the serpent YHVHs creation. Did he create evil?

(Of course he did. He even bragged about it in Isaiah 45:7)

Expand full comment

Yes, it was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God in His Infinite Wisdom expelled A & E from Eden not only because they disobeyed, but also to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life that would have allowed them to live forever despite their sin (wages of sin being death and all that.)

That was my church's position, IIRC

Expand full comment

The biblical god told them they would die if they ate the "forbidden fruit" from the Tree of Knowledge (see Genesis 2:17).

Well, he was kinda right. They did die...eventually. Adam lived to be 930. There's no age mentioned for Eve. She was just a girl, after all.

Expand full comment

There was something about a second tree, the Tree of Life. (?) I'm no bible scholar (bible study always bored the hell out of me and I haven't cracked a bible in decades). God wanted to bar them from this second tree because they could escape the penalty of death for their sin.

Could be, this was just something our particular branch of churching made up and pulled out of its collective ass.

Expand full comment

Hey, what's more joyful than a good old autodafé (book burning) between fiends ?

Expand full comment

Love this!! Between fiends!!! 😂

Expand full comment
Comment removed
Oct 19, 2023
Comment removed
Expand full comment

From the French page

"Par extension, « autodafé » désigne l'action de détruire par le feu[3]. Ainsi, le concept d'autodafé est couramment utilisé pour caractériser la destruction publique de livres ou de manuscrits par le feu.

By extension "autodafé" indicate the act of using fire to destruct something. Thus, the concept of aurodafé is often used to name the public destruction of books or manuscripts by fire.

Expand full comment

Well, they've said it in many, many ways that knowledge and thought are bad for indoctrination. Must be Satanic, then... double plus ungood!

Expand full comment

Martin Luther despised Reason, calling it "a whore."

This from a rabid antisemite.

Expand full comment
Comment deleted
Oct 19, 2023
Comment deleted
Expand full comment

I don't know. Ask Hypatia.

Expand full comment
Comment deleted
Oct 19, 2023
Comment deleted
Expand full comment

That the religion is and always has been terrified of knowledge and is willing to murder and mutilate to suppress it.

Expand full comment

You're right. I engaged in some hyperbole. Not all average Christians want to destroy all knowledge outside the Bible. Just enough of them to make me worry about the future.

Expand full comment

They may not all actually participate, but I wonder how many of them silently agree. Or just don't object because goddy reasons. Friends of mine who still live in Florida tell me that not one single christian leader that they know of has voiced objections to De Satan emptying out school libraries and classrooms. Of course, there haven't been any huge book burnings, but I'm guessing there wouldn't be any pushback against that either.

So far, no one I know of has heard a whimper of opposition from the religious camp about ANY of its adherents objecting to banning or even burning books. I would hope that I am wrong, but dammit...their own history and fanaticism make me wonder.

Expand full comment
Comment deleted
Oct 19, 2023
Comment deleted
Expand full comment

I certainly hope it's a fading social and political force, but it's still causing a lot of damage. For just one example, we'll be dealing with the fallout of this current religion-shaped SCOTUS for generations.

Expand full comment

An exception that's overshadowed by hundreds of other churches demanding certain books (except theirs's) be kept away from children.

Expand full comment

Maybe not literally, but metaphorically. Book banning is a small step away from book burning. Then you have all the "Satanic Panic" targets and all the science denial. Ignorance isn't just bliss, it's a feature.

Expand full comment

Remember, More went to his death because he was cock blocking the King. No matter what refined thoughts on law and virtue, religious or secular that you have, the axe will find your neck if you buck power and only rely on an imaginary being's power to protect you. Even if misinformation, lies or manufactured evidence is brought against you belief won't save you. That's the nature of the world.

That's what they did here, they brought their beliefs to battle with widely known facts, lesson plans, and common sense. And again emphasizes the point that as judges are appointed, zealots elected, lawyers indoctrinated or corrupted by the lure of lucre power will shift in other hands. The mom's just thought that power had already been purloined.

Expand full comment

What has Elvis got to do with this?

Expand full comment

Except for the anti-Elvis.

Expand full comment

Mojo Nixon screwed up and said "Doctor Spock" instead of Mr. Spock. 🙂

Expand full comment

In the song, Nixon starts talking about people from outer space, Klingons and Star Trek "jive." He was obviously referring to a certain Vulcan and not the human pediatrician.

EDIT I see Zorgin beat me to it by 7 minutes.

Expand full comment

Doubt it.

🎵 Yeah man, you know people from outer space,

People from outer space they come up to me.

They don't look like like Doctor Spock.

They don't look like Klingons,

All that Star Trek jive. ️🎵

Expand full comment

Eddie, not Elvis.

Expand full comment

Elvis is the King. Which Eddie are you talking about?

Expand full comment

Munster?

Expand full comment

Oop my bad, I meant Harry.

Expand full comment

Isn't he like 3rd in line now, behind Edward's kid?

Expand full comment

Valiant?

Expand full comment

Houdini? Potter?

Expand full comment

Vedder?

Expand full comment

Nope, I usually don't bet (vedder is Norwegian for betting).

Expand full comment

In catholic school in the 6th grade, I had an assignment to do a paper comparing religions and their beliefs. It was fascinating and the final straw for me when I realized it was all make believe - including my own faith. Maybe that's what they're afraid of.

Expand full comment

You had me until "maybe". 😁

Expand full comment

He’s certainly been scarred permanently by his mother’s reaction to having to learn about Islam a couple of days back in middle school. But not by the fact that he learned something about some folks who are different from him. Parents do the damage more often than not and the right loves to claim the left and/or diversity is to blame. No assholes, if you wouldn’t get your panties in a twist over nothingburgers most of this crap would not affect you in any way, shape, or form. You are making the country go to shit. You are being divisive, not the folks telling you to please stop oppressing them. Die mad about it. And here’s a cape so you can be super mad.

Expand full comment

That's an insult to capes. Capes are cool, despite Edna Mode's opinion (the woman never heard of a breakaway clasp?)

Expand full comment

I was rather hoping that Diana would lift her top like Arthur lifted his. :)

Expand full comment

Thankyou!

Usually, when I click on something around here it messes up my algorithm and I get recommendations for a lot of weird religious videos. Not this time. : )

Expand full comment

The only religious videos I watch are the babble commentaries by Hemant 😏

Expand full comment

I'm thinking Diana is wearing less underneath. :D

Expand full comment
Comment removed
Oct 19, 2023
Comment removed
Expand full comment

I go both ways. 😁

Expand full comment

That was what I was thinking. There was no way he could have been scarred for life by learning some general facts about another major religion -- unless his mother scarred him by embarrassing the living daylights out of him, making such a jackass out of herself from his middle school years all the way through to his graduation. Jeez. I remember middle school and high school --- And I effing hated Parents' Night and PTO meetings, where I would just pray like hell that my folks wouldn't embarrass me. Back in those days, all they had to do was show up in their outdated dorky polyester church clothes fashion. They didn't even have to say or do anything. I would have probably died or run away from home if my mom had pulled anything similar to this wingnut in the story.

Expand full comment

I mean, going on national television to instigate violence against my school would definitely have an adverse affect on my relationship with my mother, especially if she chose not to protect my identity in the process.

It wasn’t the teacher or the principal or the school that became an issue, it was the violent protestations against the school over legal, sane, and respectable lessons, in other words crazy response to nothing at all, that was the problem. The right is beyond civil discourse lately, there’s case after case after case of the right responding to political disagreements with violence until they get their way, in any other place or time we would call that terrorism, it is the textbook definition of the word, after all. But here we are writing it off as parental choice or some stupid shit.

Expand full comment

Our 'journalists' no longer have the courage to call out domestic terrorism for what it is. And I can just imagine Fox Propaganda's cries of persecution over it.

Expand full comment

Christians can't be terrorists, only Muslims can be terrorists. Christians are patriots. /s

Expand full comment

You misspelled "pet rats".

Expand full comment

We had the same idiotic whingeing in my area that a history class covered the emergence of Islam but not Christianity. True! What the idiots didn’t know was the history class the year before covered the emergence of Christianity but not Islam. History…something…chronological…something something.

Expand full comment

OT - How dare they tell the truth about him? Remember this guy?

https://www.friendlyatheist.com/p/north-dakota-gop-lawmaker-brandon

𝐆𝐎𝐏 𝐥𝐚𝐰𝐦𝐚𝐤𝐞𝐫 𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐰 𝐬𝐜𝐡𝐨𝐨𝐥 𝐨𝐟 𝐚𝐧𝐭𝐢-𝐂𝐡𝐫𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐛𝐢𝐚𝐬 𝐚𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐭 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐟𝐢𝐫𝐦𝐬 𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐚𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐚𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠

https://www.alternet.org/gop-lawmaker-accuses-law-school/

Expand full comment