Dan Patrick was a Houston radio blowhard, and Rush Limbaugh wannabe. He is also a four-star religious nut case. That is 100% of what he brings to the table. The Constitution does not mention the words Bible, Jesus or God, and Article VI specifically bans religious tests for holding public office in the United States. Article VI is a very strange thing to include in the foundational document of a country whose founders did not want church-state separation. Article VI also predates the Bill of Rights which speaks to how the founders felt about the issue. Like every other evangelical fool, Patrick assumes it will be his tribe calling the shots for everyone else. He should be imagining the tribe he hates most having control over his life because that will definitely be someone’s reality. I will never understand why mere freedom of religion isn’t enough for these people.
They see other people having the same freedom of religion they have and are convinced that it violates their religious freedom.
To the hard-core evangelicals, no religious test means no one particular sect of Protestant Christianity is required. To them, the Establishment Clause means no one sect can be declared the official Church of the United States.
I agree with your first statement, but to me it is evident that only a very narrow range of beliefs will satisfy the right-wing Christo-fascist faction. They specifically believe they have the right to seize political power and impose their views on the populace through legislation and arbitrary executive action, such as Trump's voluminous Executive Orders.
oh yeah, that relig Cretin tells his sunday school class (on field trips) that SATAN created the Fossils they find,and jus' kinda strew them about to confuse us ...hmmmmmm......
He could not possibly provide anything in the way of objective evidence to support his claim, and yet he tries to pass it off as truth. It is, at best, a very juvenile post-hoc rationalization.
Old, wealthy, Christian cis-het white males. Every privilege box checked, and 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 are being oppressed? If it weren't so pathetic and dangerous, I would laugh.
It seems to me that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison should be spinning in their graves by now. Apparently Ms. Alvaré & Co. have no interest in acknowledging the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment or that little note that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist.
I would further remind Ms Alvaré that Christianity is not the only religion practiced in the United States, and that all religions and those who do not practice religion enjoy equal protection under the Constitution. Of course, she doesn't want to hear that.
Also remind her that “Christianity” is not a single religion but a whole bunch of different ones that disagree about all kinds of stuff. Some Christians believe their god thinks homosexuality is abominable; others think their god sanctifies same sex marriage. Hell, that sounds like 2 different gods.
That probably won't work. Whenever you bring that letter up, they deflect by saying "it's just in a letter, not in the Constitution" because for that one specific principle, they expect the actual phrase to be there.
I remember hearing a program years ago on my late Mom's radio station where when a preacher claimed that the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is not found anywhere in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, he was meant with long, raucous applause from the audience listening to him on that program. Neither are words "God," "Jesus," "Bible," or "Christian" found anywhere in both those documents. But what's to stop them from making up creative lies to promote false, unfounded tales for US History a la David Barfon?
And the DoI isn’t a document of governance/ Unlike the Constitution and the Treaty With Tripoli, the DoI isn’t the law of the land.
And shall we give them the bad news that Creator is a Deist term and not Christian? They’re not the same at all. “Creator” means “Nature” (shit, it doesn’t even say “Our Creator.” It says “their Creator.” Also not the same).
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
I remember tuning into an episode of Jerry Falwell's "Ol' Time Gospel Hour", after hearing something about it that I no longer remember. This would have been 1980-81.
What Falwell wanted was for his "stans" to support Reagan's new nuclear proposal. NOT in order to protect America, but so that a planet covered with nuclear weapons would be more likely to trigger "Armageddon". At least he was honest in his request for global suffering and death.
I even got the booklet/cassette of the event, but I suspect it's long gone. (I also became an unwilling "Moral Majority" member, which I never donated a cent for.)
Trump et. al. is nothing new; simply an accelerant. After he's gone, there will always be another.
The Baptists of Danbury praised Jefferson for his wall of separation. They didn't like the thought of having to pay tribute to the Congregationalists of Connecticut.
Some 25 years before the letter, Jefferson penned the Virginia statute for religious freedom. It's worth reading in full (Wikipedia has it), but here are some juicy excerpts:
"...all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness..."
"...That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others..."
"That it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it..."
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities..."
Makes me laugh when xtians have the gall to call things lies. They're the biggest liars on the planet. They teach lies to children. Their religion is based on lies.
I don't mind the bible. If people want to read it, if people want to believe in it - that's absolutely fine, no skin of my nose.
If they want the bible to encroach on the public realm, a secular space, then I object. I like your separation of church and state, I think it is a good rule.
That's a collection of texts that are wildly contradictory. Is it a lie to, say, suggest that people love their neighbours and that those neighbours might be people your community demands you reject? That's the parable of the Good Samaritan. In the Bible... which also in its Book of Numbers chapter 31 demands: 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
"The separation of church and state" is a perfectly reasonable and apt characterization for the theocracy-preventing Establishment Clause of The First Amendment.
"Separation of church and state" is simply the answer "No" to the question of "Should the government be allowed to use violence to compel an individual to belief in a religion?"
And 700 years of suffering, misery, and bloodshed in Europe and between Europe and the Middle East wisely informed the (flawed) men who wrote our Constitution that this was the only sane answer.
Do you really think, O white Evangelicals, that you will forever be in power? Do you fancifully imagine that the engines of state violence will never, ever be deployed against you? Do you imagine the guns you wish pointed at others will never turn around?
Well it includes non-violent coercion. Such as schooling and such.
The 1a religion clauses can be read/interpreted as a sort of social contract - you, the people, agree to give the government authority to do stuff like schooling, road-building, army-mustering, etc., while we, the government, agree to use that authority only to do the stuff you agreed to. Which implies 'we won't spend your tax dollars to build churches and we won't make you pray to a god, because that wasn't part of the deal." The free expression clause is just more of the same - you didn't agree to give us the power to limit it, so we can't.
How very dare you assume intentions of this body!?!
Ha ha ha, just kidding.
This is horrifying.
Let’s instill hope though, as Trump is dwindling, in comprehension, in power, and in support, these folks won’t be in power much longer. Even if Vance takes over (or any other option, like one of his sons or Miller or whoever they try to install) he doesn’t have the charisma that Trump rode into his position. This is a cult of personality, and they rarely ever live beyond the personality. Our power to end this is growing, like a warehouse fire, and we will overcome this. We can bolster the first amendment and fully build the wall then. Not that I’m advocating for ignoring this now, definitely we need to push against this overreach. Always push back.
The United States of America is founded on July 4th, 1776. This year, the nation will be celebrating its 250 birthday. Well, here's hoping that between now and July 4th, something will happen that will send that Stupid Idiot Dump straight to Hell for good, and the whole nation will be better off celebrating its 250th birthday without him.
I wouldn't be so sure. Trump *uses* the religious right for votes, but he has no real interest in promoting them. A Vance or Pence or Mike Johnson in the oval office would likely give such folks *more* real power, rather than have them issue symbolic meaningless reports.
It is a possibility, but not likely. Just look at the Erika Kirk JD Vance recent event. It was cancelled because no one bought tickets, and the past few were very under attended. The Heritage Foundation might try to keep their agenda alive, but there will be no one to take up the mantle with any success.
Christian Nazionalist demands churches be above the law? That tracks.
Danny boy obviously thinks that tho only way to violate the religion clauses is for Congress to declare one sect the official Church of the United States. He probably assumes that the Free Exercise Clause only applies to Christianity, and maybe Judaism if they are using the "see we aren't really Nazis" dodge of "Judeo-Christian" values.
Hey Dan: If Church and state aren't separate, then a church (that is not yours) can become the state. Do you want Catholics telling you, a Baptist, how to live?
There’s really not much to say about this that Hemant didn’t say already. They want to dismantle what little separation of church and state we have.
We can only hope that this will drive even more people away from the churches. And, we can also only hope that if their behavior gets too egregious, we end up with a way to amend the constitution to establish a definite church and state separation. As I’ve had a number of occasions to write in the last few weeks and the last year and a half, our constitution has stopped serving us in so many ways.
Whether it is establishing a strict separation of church and state, or a second amendment that does not allow for any nutcase to have as many guns as he wishes of whatever type and lethality he wants, these are things that need to change.
It would be the greatest irony if so many people are disgusted with the Republican Party and the religious right that Democrats and independents are finally in a position to do something about our endemic flaws.
I live on the Mississippi River Alluvial Plain, just about ground zero for the buckle of the bibble belt. Since I have retired from the ministry, I now have Sunday mornings free. Walmart and all the other stores are packed on Sunday mornings. The real national religion of the USA is consumerism.
OT but related to your comment: After I retired I told my bride that now I could go to Costco during the week. Weekends at Costco typically involve me letting her out of the car while I cruise the parking lot for 10-15 minutes looking for a space. Her response? “But I like walking around in Costco. I see things i forgot to put on the list.” Which means I still stuck cruising the parking lot. Sometimes I go myself on a Tuesday. I always take a photo of all the empty parking spaces and text it to her.
A number of big barns here have pensioner discounts – usually on a Tuesday. I guess that's a slow day for them I don't know. But I like wandering around looking at stuff. Wife does not.
Dan Patrick was a Houston radio blowhard, and Rush Limbaugh wannabe. He is also a four-star religious nut case. That is 100% of what he brings to the table. The Constitution does not mention the words Bible, Jesus or God, and Article VI specifically bans religious tests for holding public office in the United States. Article VI is a very strange thing to include in the foundational document of a country whose founders did not want church-state separation. Article VI also predates the Bill of Rights which speaks to how the founders felt about the issue. Like every other evangelical fool, Patrick assumes it will be his tribe calling the shots for everyone else. He should be imagining the tribe he hates most having control over his life because that will definitely be someone’s reality. I will never understand why mere freedom of religion isn’t enough for these people.
They see other people having the same freedom of religion they have and are convinced that it violates their religious freedom.
To the hard-core evangelicals, no religious test means no one particular sect of Protestant Christianity is required. To them, the Establishment Clause means no one sect can be declared the official Church of the United States.
I agree with your first statement, but to me it is evident that only a very narrow range of beliefs will satisfy the right-wing Christo-fascist faction. They specifically believe they have the right to seize political power and impose their views on the populace through legislation and arbitrary executive action, such as Trump's voluminous Executive Orders.
Because they're evil motherfuckers.
Succinct!
oh yeah, that relig Cretin tells his sunday school class (on field trips) that SATAN created the Fossils they find,and jus' kinda strew them about to confuse us ...hmmmmmm......
He could not possibly provide anything in the way of objective evidence to support his claim, and yet he tries to pass it off as truth. It is, at best, a very juvenile post-hoc rationalization.
of COURSE it is....and, as Jimmy Durante used to say "yeah,him an' his GREAT BIG 3rd grade education.....lol....
That dreaded tribe would be us few atheists. You know, the heathens.
The dumbest part about this has got to be the idea that a bunch of old, white males want to argue that they're being oppressed somehow.
Old, wealthy, Christian cis-het white males. Every privilege box checked, and 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 are being oppressed? If it weren't so pathetic and dangerous, I would laugh.
I can't laugh at that. I can and will be pissed off at it, however!
It seems to me that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison should be spinning in their graves by now. Apparently Ms. Alvaré & Co. have no interest in acknowledging the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment or that little note that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist.
I would further remind Ms Alvaré that Christianity is not the only religion practiced in the United States, and that all religions and those who do not practice religion enjoy equal protection under the Constitution. Of course, she doesn't want to hear that.
Maybe we should tattoo it on her forehead?
Also remind her that “Christianity” is not a single religion but a whole bunch of different ones that disagree about all kinds of stuff. Some Christians believe their god thinks homosexuality is abominable; others think their god sanctifies same sex marriage. Hell, that sounds like 2 different gods.
If only we could harness the power of the founders spinning in their graves, climate change would be a distant memory.
That probably won't work. Whenever you bring that letter up, they deflect by saying "it's just in a letter, not in the Constitution" because for that one specific principle, they expect the actual phrase to be there.
I remember hearing a program years ago on my late Mom's radio station where when a preacher claimed that the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is not found anywhere in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, he was meant with long, raucous applause from the audience listening to him on that program. Neither are words "God," "Jesus," "Bible," or "Christian" found anywhere in both those documents. But what's to stop them from making up creative lies to promote false, unfounded tales for US History a la David Barfon?
And the DoI isn’t a document of governance/ Unlike the Constitution and the Treaty With Tripoli, the DoI isn’t the law of the land.
And shall we give them the bad news that Creator is a Deist term and not Christian? They’re not the same at all. “Creator” means “Nature” (shit, it doesn’t even say “Our Creator.” It says “their Creator.” Also not the same).
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Then we tell them that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit/Divine/Bible etc. isn’t in the Constitution, either.
That won't work either. Jesus/Bible etc are implied, says special pleading. (One of their favorite activities.)
I remember tuning into an episode of Jerry Falwell's "Ol' Time Gospel Hour", after hearing something about it that I no longer remember. This would have been 1980-81.
What Falwell wanted was for his "stans" to support Reagan's new nuclear proposal. NOT in order to protect America, but so that a planet covered with nuclear weapons would be more likely to trigger "Armageddon". At least he was honest in his request for global suffering and death.
I even got the booklet/cassette of the event, but I suspect it's long gone. (I also became an unwilling "Moral Majority" member, which I never donated a cent for.)
Trump et. al. is nothing new; simply an accelerant. After he's gone, there will always be another.
The Baptists of Danbury praised Jefferson for his wall of separation. They didn't like the thought of having to pay tribute to the Congregationalists of Connecticut.
If you tattoo it onto her forehead, then she can't see/read it. Some other place perhaps.
Tattoo it BACKWARDS on her forehead, so she is reminded of it every time she looks in a mirror!
This made me laugh!
Good! My work here is done! 😁
Like her ass. She has her head up it enough.
Some 25 years before the letter, Jefferson penned the Virginia statute for religious freedom. It's worth reading in full (Wikipedia has it), but here are some juicy excerpts:
"...all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness..."
"...That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others..."
"That it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it..."
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities..."
Next to the Mark of the Beast.
Makes me laugh when xtians have the gall to call things lies. They're the biggest liars on the planet. They teach lies to children. Their religion is based on lies.
And they worship the biggest liar of all time who now has gone so far as to portray himself as Jesus. Maybe they now feel fullfilled.
There's a feeling among some believers going around that Trump may be the Antichrist.
"May" be the Antichrist? Why the doubt?
No, Patrick. The biggest lie ever told is found in every page of the bible.
I don't mind the bible. If people want to read it, if people want to believe in it - that's absolutely fine, no skin of my nose.
If they want the bible to encroach on the public realm, a secular space, then I object. I like your separation of church and state, I think it is a good rule.
That's a collection of texts that are wildly contradictory. Is it a lie to, say, suggest that people love their neighbours and that those neighbours might be people your community demands you reject? That's the parable of the Good Samaritan. In the Bible... which also in its Book of Numbers chapter 31 demands: 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
"The separation of church and state" is a perfectly reasonable and apt characterization for the theocracy-preventing Establishment Clause of The First Amendment.
To call it "a lie" is itself a lie.
Just like evolution is the best evidence-based explanation science can offer on how life came to be what it is. Calling it "a lie" is a lie, itself.
"Separation of church and state" is simply the answer "No" to the question of "Should the government be allowed to use violence to compel an individual to belief in a religion?"
And 700 years of suffering, misery, and bloodshed in Europe and between Europe and the Middle East wisely informed the (flawed) men who wrote our Constitution that this was the only sane answer.
Do you really think, O white Evangelicals, that you will forever be in power? Do you fancifully imagine that the engines of state violence will never, ever be deployed against you? Do you imagine the guns you wish pointed at others will never turn around?
Then you are delusional fools.
Well it includes non-violent coercion. Such as schooling and such.
The 1a religion clauses can be read/interpreted as a sort of social contract - you, the people, agree to give the government authority to do stuff like schooling, road-building, army-mustering, etc., while we, the government, agree to use that authority only to do the stuff you agreed to. Which implies 'we won't spend your tax dollars to build churches and we won't make you pray to a god, because that wasn't part of the deal." The free expression clause is just more of the same - you didn't agree to give us the power to limit it, so we can't.
How very dare you assume intentions of this body!?!
Ha ha ha, just kidding.
This is horrifying.
Let’s instill hope though, as Trump is dwindling, in comprehension, in power, and in support, these folks won’t be in power much longer. Even if Vance takes over (or any other option, like one of his sons or Miller or whoever they try to install) he doesn’t have the charisma that Trump rode into his position. This is a cult of personality, and they rarely ever live beyond the personality. Our power to end this is growing, like a warehouse fire, and we will overcome this. We can bolster the first amendment and fully build the wall then. Not that I’m advocating for ignoring this now, definitely we need to push against this overreach. Always push back.
The United States of America is founded on July 4th, 1776. This year, the nation will be celebrating its 250 birthday. Well, here's hoping that between now and July 4th, something will happen that will send that Stupid Idiot Dump straight to Hell for good, and the whole nation will be better off celebrating its 250th birthday without him.
I wouldn't be so sure. Trump *uses* the religious right for votes, but he has no real interest in promoting them. A Vance or Pence or Mike Johnson in the oval office would likely give such folks *more* real power, rather than have them issue symbolic meaningless reports.
It is a possibility, but not likely. Just look at the Erika Kirk JD Vance recent event. It was cancelled because no one bought tickets, and the past few were very under attended. The Heritage Foundation might try to keep their agenda alive, but there will be no one to take up the mantle with any success.
Hey, Danny Boy: Article XI of the Treaty With Tripoli. Read it and weep.
You lost him at "read."
He can probably read, but his comprehension would suck.
[𝑊]𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝑎 𝑑𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑜𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝐼𝑅𝑆 𝑟𝑒𝑔𝑢𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑢𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐹𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑈𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑆𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑠 𝐶𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑤𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑛 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑔𝑒𝑡 𝑎 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑒 𝑐𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑟 𝑡𝑜 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦 𝑐ℎ𝑢𝑟𝑐ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒.
Christian Nazionalist demands churches be above the law? That tracks.
Danny boy obviously thinks that tho only way to violate the religion clauses is for Congress to declare one sect the official Church of the United States. He probably assumes that the Free Exercise Clause only applies to Christianity, and maybe Judaism if they are using the "see we aren't really Nazis" dodge of "Judeo-Christian" values.
Hey Dan: If Church and state aren't separate, then a church (that is not yours) can become the state. Do you want Catholics telling you, a Baptist, how to live?
There’s really not much to say about this that Hemant didn’t say already. They want to dismantle what little separation of church and state we have.
We can only hope that this will drive even more people away from the churches. And, we can also only hope that if their behavior gets too egregious, we end up with a way to amend the constitution to establish a definite church and state separation. As I’ve had a number of occasions to write in the last few weeks and the last year and a half, our constitution has stopped serving us in so many ways.
Whether it is establishing a strict separation of church and state, or a second amendment that does not allow for any nutcase to have as many guns as he wishes of whatever type and lethality he wants, these are things that need to change.
It would be the greatest irony if so many people are disgusted with the Republican Party and the religious right that Democrats and independents are finally in a position to do something about our endemic flaws.
A boy can dream.
I live on the Mississippi River Alluvial Plain, just about ground zero for the buckle of the bibble belt. Since I have retired from the ministry, I now have Sunday mornings free. Walmart and all the other stores are packed on Sunday mornings. The real national religion of the USA is consumerism.
OT but related to your comment: After I retired I told my bride that now I could go to Costco during the week. Weekends at Costco typically involve me letting her out of the car while I cruise the parking lot for 10-15 minutes looking for a space. Her response? “But I like walking around in Costco. I see things i forgot to put on the list.” Which means I still stuck cruising the parking lot. Sometimes I go myself on a Tuesday. I always take a photo of all the empty parking spaces and text it to her.
A number of big barns here have pensioner discounts – usually on a Tuesday. I guess that's a slow day for them I don't know. But I like wandering around looking at stuff. Wife does not.
Sham commission to issue a sham report about sham persecution.
It's a sham all the way down.
Sham-poo is what it is.
Damn. You're good!
D'awww. 'Tweren't nuthin.' 🙂
Shama Lama Ding Dong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rfnwsb-dg0&list=RD9rfnwsb-dg0&start_radio=1
"the separation of church and state is the biggest lie that's been told in America since our founding.”
Prove it, Dan! Or it's only the biggest lie you've made up entirely, yourself.
Generally, I'd consider theses folks to be the "Everything Everywhere All at Once" experts on lying....
But doing something constantly doesn't necessarily mean doing it well.
It’s no wonder the UNTIDY STATES OF AMERICA have a president like CRIMINAL TRUMP when you have sad idiots like this peanut wandering the streets.
… 🦘🦘🦘