There are 7 key Founding Fathers. That is to say, 7 who were instrumental in the forming of our country and its government. They are George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison.
Of those 7, only Jay was an orthodox Christian. Hamilton was a Christian only when it was convenient. He ignored it otherwise. The rest were Deists. Conspicuous by its absence? The name of Patrick Henry. Christians love to add all sorts of Christians to that list of principal Founding Fathers in an attempt to "stack the deck" in their favor. Too bad their deception fails.
Christians, acting in the name of Christianity, have spilled enough blood to float the Navy. Often the blood of the wrong kind of Christian, as defined by those doing the killing. Religion and morality do not exclude each other, but they are very far from the same thing. People who manage to convince themselves they're operating under divine sanction, are capable of any horror. Josh Hawley is yet another Ivy League lawyer with a Gestapo mentality.
“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg (American theoretical physicist)
Non-heuristic theories are fun! Folks who insist that the ineffable can be understood through the left hemisphere space time interface will get what they expect. A dead existence. Life is a mystery. “Let the mystery be.” - Iris Dement
Maybe we shouldn’t be trying to guess what slaveholders from 200 years ago meant, but do what is right for now.
Paraphrased from a meme I cannot find again. But seriously, however the founding fathers wanted to setup our government is less relevant than what we really need right now. The important part of what they setup is that the government is for the people, it has limitations to how it interferes in individual lives, and that it can be changed as society changes. Hawley and Barton and Gingrich and the rest of the Christian Nationalists are trying to rule by a dead book, creating a dead constitution, and providing a dead government. Our constitution is supposed to be living, our government should be adapting and we cannot survive using a dead thought process.
“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”
Inscribed on the southeast wall of the Thomas Jefferson memorial.
I wouldn’t expect anything less from a man who showed support for Jan 6th rioters and then ran like the scared little boy he actually is. It’s a shame that our country is still so wrapped up in Christian Nationalist bullshit.
Even if the FF were all Christians and founded this country on Christian/Biblical principles that doesn't make it right for today. Many of them were slaveholders and we don't accept slavery these days just because of that. Although, I don't know about Josh...he might just be on the slave holding side.
The legacy of American slavery is Christianity. The heroes of black America are all reverends who have propagated the false belief that slaveholders inculcated into their victims.
My crackpot ex's old man, who was an even bigger crackpot (and believer in every conspiracy theory every invented), once explained to me about all the christianity involved in the founding of the country. America was founded, he assured me, when the colonies went to war against the atheistic government of England. When I pointed out that England has its very own christian church, headed by the archbishop of Canterbury, he gave his unvarying response: "That's a communist lie!"
There is simply no way to win a reasoned argument with someone whose position isn't based on reason, and no amount of factual information can persuade someone with no regard for factual reality. As Gore Vidal used to say, this country got off to a bad start with the Puritans, and we've never recovered.
There is even more to this than what you have written, Hemant. This is from theKansas City Star:
"It’s only been a couple of weeks since Hawley decided to celebrate Juneteenth with a distorted history of slavery. “Today is a good day to remember: Christianity is the faith and America is the place slavery came to die,” Hawley wrote on Twitter. This is who Josh Hawley is: a politician who craves attention, even bad attention — perhaps especially bad attention — because maybe it will bring him the power he craves."
"America is the place slavery came to die."
I bet his nose grew 15 inches after telling that whopper. If this is not entirely accurate — I'm too lazy to look it up – it's close enough to show the character of this man. The last two countries to outlaw slavery in the western hemisphere were the United States in 1865, and Brazil in 1888. Most of south and central America had slavery, Buy got rid of a decades before the United States did. I think Perú was an 1831.
Haiti, the place where US 'businessmen' supposedly were getting all the slaves, threw off the chains of slavery via revolution in 1804 and permanently banned slavery. Many sources cite them as the first nation to do so. The US wouldn't do so for another 6 decades. The grandchildren of those who fought against the slave revolt in Haiti likely fought against the North in the American Civil war. No, you are correct the US was not the first but it very likely could have been the last if Lincoln had not decided to sign an executive order to free the slaves. What followed was another 100 years of relegating black Americans to second class citizenship.
No Josh, if slavery came here to die then clearly America is where Christianity has come to die.
The only reason it came here to die is because no other countries would have it. Hadn't most of the other Western nations already done away with it? I could be wrong, I'm not terribly well read on the subject.
Why does it not surprise me that Barton et al. have fake footnotes? Like, if the book with a similar but not the same name does have the quote, why didn’t he get the name of the book right? Hawley is supposedly an historian too? Then he should know the minor allusions to god in the Declaration of Independence are not part of the rule of our government, and they’re not even really Christian. But that doesn’t comport with his really bad desire of a Christian nation. He really, really wants it to be true.
His projection onto the libs of being major triggered is textbook.
History major here, he may have a History diploma but something I was teached again and again was "Historians should be as neutral* as possible", what he does is propaganda and spreading nationalisme like Europe did in 19th and 20th century or Hungary right now.
* Because pseudo History was used as a weapon to create an imaginary past. Example "Nos ancêtres les Gaulois" not wrong but not right either.
How much more does this petulant loser have to do for prosecutors to draw a line in the sand? I'd say "it won't happen until there's a body count..." but there already is a fucking body count! Enough is enough, already. Grow a damn spine and take his toys away, before someone else pays for his privilege with their life.
I dunno, but within my living memory our Prime Minister had his phone number in the phone book. And occasionally he'd give someone an earful if they rang him to complain about something. Mind you, there was nobody outside his place with a van full of guns.
Yep six, seven inches thick paper about as thin as a bible's. Contained the name of everybody in town and their phone numbers. Also had ads for local businesses organized by category with their phone numbers.
Mostly went straight to the recycling bin. Haven't seen one in a few years now and they are getting much smaller as businesses find yelp and google cheaper and more efficient.
I used to carry one in my car, mostly for the maps.
Over spring break, we took a trip to Big Bend National Park in TX. One of the places we stopped nearby had a little local museum. They had a copy of the original town phone book. It was a half sheet of paper with a handful of first names with numbers.
Back when Obama left the WH there were articles about where he was moving to. He bought (or leased) a house in DC so his kids could finish school. I could find it on a map if I had to.
Two thousand years from now especially if civilization crashes and much of our documentation both physical and online perishes, I would expect to see some degree of skepticism. What worries me is that something like the National Enquirer survives and becomes the source for the history of our times. LOL!
There's no surprise here. Seeing a fool like Hawley continue to spread falsehoods is only par for the course in the MAGAT cult that looks to change the USA into their version of Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq, etc...
If Christian Nationalists paid any attention to Jesus' words that his kingdom was not of this world then they would understand that there has never been and could never be a "Christian America".
For one thing, Christianity is very far from being a unified thing. They could never agree on what Christianity means, and would soon be killing one another over doctrinal erros.The staggering number of Christian tribes should be a far bigger problem for believers than it is.
Considering what a "unified" Christianity might do to others, perhaps it's not such a bad thing that there are differences. We don't all agree on how to interpret other documents such as the Constitution. It shouldn't be surprising then that there will be differences between Christians when it comes to understanding their faith.
Perhaps not, but Christianity has morphed into the most factionalized religion on the planet. Nothing else even comes close. To my mind, this speaks of a divine being who could will the universe into existence, but when it came to the most important message imaginable couldn't make himself understood. The staggering number of Christian sects should be a bigger problem for believers than it is.
I think you'll find that most Christians believe in Jesus and his words as recorded in the NT. There's also the possibility that God has spoken clearly but that we have misunderstood for one reason or another. Communication depends upon the audience as well.
The gospel of John was revealed to be an outright forgery. And none of the other gospels was written by its alleged authors. Maybe because, like John, they never existed.
We do have instances of where Jesus prayed in public but we have to recall that Jesus was warning us about being pious in public to get attention from others.
Well, you’re half right. There can never be a Christian America. But it’s because Christianity is fantasy, people may believe in it, but it isn’t real. Hailey’s manipulations and lies here prove it all too clearly.
There are 7 key Founding Fathers. That is to say, 7 who were instrumental in the forming of our country and its government. They are George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay and James Madison.
Of those 7, only Jay was an orthodox Christian. Hamilton was a Christian only when it was convenient. He ignored it otherwise. The rest were Deists. Conspicuous by its absence? The name of Patrick Henry. Christians love to add all sorts of Christians to that list of principal Founding Fathers in an attempt to "stack the deck" in their favor. Too bad their deception fails.
They're ALL¹ Founding Fathers.
(¹ Except the inconvenient² ones.)
(² von Steuben, for example.)
I think you forgot Pepe Silvia, the Illuminatus Mage and founder of the Postal Service.
（°々°）
I thought it was Moist Von Lipwig.
He begrudgingly resurrected it.
https://youtu.be/1NBfZcNU4O0
Christians, acting in the name of Christianity, have spilled enough blood to float the Navy. Often the blood of the wrong kind of Christian, as defined by those doing the killing. Religion and morality do not exclude each other, but they are very far from the same thing. People who manage to convince themselves they're operating under divine sanction, are capable of any horror. Josh Hawley is yet another Ivy League lawyer with a Gestapo mentality.
Religion and morality don't exclude each other, but Christianity and morality certainly do.
“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg (American theoretical physicist)
There's his problem, he deals in 'theories' and not actual *facts* like Jesus is Lord!
</snarcasm>
Non-heuristic theories are fun! Folks who insist that the ineffable can be understood through the left hemisphere space time interface will get what they expect. A dead existence. Life is a mystery. “Let the mystery be.” - Iris Dement
Maybe we shouldn’t be trying to guess what slaveholders from 200 years ago meant, but do what is right for now.
Paraphrased from a meme I cannot find again. But seriously, however the founding fathers wanted to setup our government is less relevant than what we really need right now. The important part of what they setup is that the government is for the people, it has limitations to how it interferes in individual lives, and that it can be changed as society changes. Hawley and Barton and Gingrich and the rest of the Christian Nationalists are trying to rule by a dead book, creating a dead constitution, and providing a dead government. Our constitution is supposed to be living, our government should be adapting and we cannot survive using a dead thought process.
“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”
Inscribed on the southeast wall of the Thomas Jefferson memorial.
https://www.azquotes.com/image-quotes/Quotation-Thomas-Jefferson-I-am-not-an-advocate-for-frequent-changes-in-laws-36-76-26.jpg
Can't be real, far too rational, offends Yahweh, yadda yadda......
I wouldn’t expect anything less from a man who showed support for Jan 6th rioters and then ran like the scared little boy he actually is. It’s a shame that our country is still so wrapped up in Christian Nationalist bullshit.
Starting from a story that became a myth that became a fabrication that became a religion that became an excuse that finally became a lie.
Nice.
Even if the FF were all Christians and founded this country on Christian/Biblical principles that doesn't make it right for today. Many of them were slaveholders and we don't accept slavery these days just because of that. Although, I don't know about Josh...he might just be on the slave holding side.
The legacy of American slavery is Christianity. The heroes of black America are all reverends who have propagated the false belief that slaveholders inculcated into their victims.
Think about that on your drive down Martin Luther King, Jr. Boulevard in whatever city you're in.
Considering where he pulled the quote from, I wouldn't even bet the gunk between my toes against it.
Of course he would be. Just like the rest of the white christians.
My crackpot ex's old man, who was an even bigger crackpot (and believer in every conspiracy theory every invented), once explained to me about all the christianity involved in the founding of the country. America was founded, he assured me, when the colonies went to war against the atheistic government of England. When I pointed out that England has its very own christian church, headed by the archbishop of Canterbury, he gave his unvarying response: "That's a communist lie!"
There is simply no way to win a reasoned argument with someone whose position isn't based on reason, and no amount of factual information can persuade someone with no regard for factual reality. As Gore Vidal used to say, this country got off to a bad start with the Puritans, and we've never recovered.
A Christian monarchy and a king (George III) who believed he ruled by divine right.
Your ex has absolutely no idea what "atheism" means...or "religion," for that matter.
What's Chuck's excuse. Note of interest to our British friends, early July looks to be a popular time for getting rid of monarchs.
Or late January.
Luckily for him, if he loses his throne, he's not likely to lose his head as so many monarchs have done.
And he'll have quite a few billions of pounds to comfort him. Poor guy.
Tax the King!
I know he became completely deranged in 1810. He was declared mentally unfit to rule in the final 10 years of his reign.
Boy, YHVH sure can pick 'em.
Our Ms. Midler would tell you it was divine madness.
I I RC, he had porphyria. Not sure that makes much of a difference though.
But it was ATHEISTIC divine right! Dontchagetit?
Atheistic divinity. You have to twist yourself like a Rubik's Cube to make that work.
https://images.app.goo.gl/RkfZgj1eVHpVyA547
Ever play Naked twister? :)
With or without the sheet ?
Free hats. https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/357044723_10231790405129834_3876833838725941573_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&cb=99be929b-59f725be&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=f3UbJjMvy20AX9Yzwr0&_nc_oc=AQmh8-IGmudWS1Ptcwf1nERMc_MxXbRKJA5JGw3l1gDkm_5v_2NBU9fdikmOohh_Fk0&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCorVpkMm-hBcOnzEjmXm_0TGA-F4c7uPeOdrVRfRWdtw&oe=64ACDF6B
I'm sorry Hemant but no article about Hawley should be considered complete without that picture of him running away. Marks off for that.
Here, let me fix that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNzKWzqwOKQ
Enjoy! 😃
I'm running away
From lies about election victory
'Cause I've got to be free
Free to hide behind a conspiracy.
There is even more to this than what you have written, Hemant. This is from theKansas City Star:
"It’s only been a couple of weeks since Hawley decided to celebrate Juneteenth with a distorted history of slavery. “Today is a good day to remember: Christianity is the faith and America is the place slavery came to die,” Hawley wrote on Twitter. This is who Josh Hawley is: a politician who craves attention, even bad attention — perhaps especially bad attention — because maybe it will bring him the power he craves."
"America is the place slavery came to die."
I bet his nose grew 15 inches after telling that whopper. If this is not entirely accurate — I'm too lazy to look it up – it's close enough to show the character of this man. The last two countries to outlaw slavery in the western hemisphere were the United States in 1865, and Brazil in 1888. Most of south and central America had slavery, Buy got rid of a decades before the United States did. I think Perú was an 1831.
Haiti, the place where US 'businessmen' supposedly were getting all the slaves, threw off the chains of slavery via revolution in 1804 and permanently banned slavery. Many sources cite them as the first nation to do so. The US wouldn't do so for another 6 decades. The grandchildren of those who fought against the slave revolt in Haiti likely fought against the North in the American Civil war. No, you are correct the US was not the first but it very likely could have been the last if Lincoln had not decided to sign an executive order to free the slaves. What followed was another 100 years of relegating black Americans to second class citizenship.
No Josh, if slavery came here to die then clearly America is where Christianity has come to die.
They were the first to abolish slavery for good. France made an half assed attempt in 1794, revoked by naboleon in 1802.
"America is the place slavery came to die."
A very slow death.
It's only mostly dead.
Put another 4 million volts through it.
The only reason it came here to die is because no other countries would have it. Hadn't most of the other Western nations already done away with it? I could be wrong, I'm not terribly well read on the subject.
British Empire 1838, France 1848. Sans civil war.
Why does it not surprise me that Barton et al. have fake footnotes? Like, if the book with a similar but not the same name does have the quote, why didn’t he get the name of the book right? Hawley is supposedly an historian too? Then he should know the minor allusions to god in the Declaration of Independence are not part of the rule of our government, and they’re not even really Christian. But that doesn’t comport with his really bad desire of a Christian nation. He really, really wants it to be true.
His projection onto the libs of being major triggered is textbook.
History major here, he may have a History diploma but something I was teached again and again was "Historians should be as neutral* as possible", what he does is propaganda and spreading nationalisme like Europe did in 19th and 20th century or Hungary right now.
* Because pseudo History was used as a weapon to create an imaginary past. Example "Nos ancêtres les Gaulois" not wrong but not right either.
OT- Can somebody please toss the spray-tanned shitmuncher in jail and take away his damn phone, already?
https://apnews.com/article/jan-6-obama-justice-department-capitol-mccarthy-27934bbd095111e7eb2bac5b5bb24e06
"𝘍𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘦𝘳 𝘗𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘪𝘥𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘋𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘥 𝘛𝘳𝘶𝘮𝘱 𝘱𝘰𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘰𝘯 𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘴𝘰𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘮𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘢 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘭𝘢𝘪𝘮𝘦𝘥 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘩𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘢𝘥𝘥𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘴 𝘰𝘧 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘦𝘳 𝘗𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘪𝘥𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘉𝘢𝘳𝘢𝘤𝘬 𝘖𝘣𝘢𝘮𝘢 𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘢𝘮𝘦 𝘥𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘢 𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘨𝘶𝘯𝘴 𝘪𝘯 𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘷𝘢𝘯 𝘸𝘢𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘯𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘺, 𝘧𝘦𝘥𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘶𝘵𝘰𝘳𝘴 𝘴𝘢𝘪𝘥 𝘞𝘦𝘥𝘯𝘦𝘴𝘥𝘢𝘺 𝘪𝘯 𝘳𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘯𝘦𝘸 𝘥𝘦𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘴 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦."
How much more does this petulant loser have to do for prosecutors to draw a line in the sand? I'd say "it won't happen until there's a body count..." but there already is a fucking body count! Enough is enough, already. Grow a damn spine and take his toys away, before someone else pays for his privilege with their life.
The most puzzling part of that is: What is his beef with NIST?
How did Trump get Obama's address? Some blabbermouth SS agent?
I dunno, but within my living memory our Prime Minister had his phone number in the phone book. And occasionally he'd give someone an earful if they rang him to complain about something. Mind you, there was nobody outside his place with a van full of guns.
Phone...book?
Yep six, seven inches thick paper about as thin as a bible's. Contained the name of everybody in town and their phone numbers. Also had ads for local businesses organized by category with their phone numbers.
Mostly went straight to the recycling bin. Haven't seen one in a few years now and they are getting much smaller as businesses find yelp and google cheaper and more efficient.
I used to carry one in my car, mostly for the maps.
Over spring break, we took a trip to Big Bend National Park in TX. One of the places we stopped nearby had a little local museum. They had a copy of the original town phone book. It was a half sheet of paper with a handful of first names with numbers.
We haven't been issued a phonebook in decades.
The classified documents he stole?
Back when Obama left the WH there were articles about where he was moving to. He bought (or leased) a house in DC so his kids could finish school. I could find it on a map if I had to.
We can give him the one my niece had for her birthday a couple a years ago.
In a letter to George Washington, Albert Einstein wrote: "The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and republican lies."
(I can play this game too! And do it even better than Joggin Josh.
"Never believe what you read on the Internet"
-- Abraham Lincoln
(sorry. you knew someone was going to post this) :)
You can't fool me, Washington and Einstein never existed.
Two thousand years from now especially if civilization crashes and much of our documentation both physical and online perishes, I would expect to see some degree of skepticism. What worries me is that something like the National Enquirer survives and becomes the source for the history of our times. LOL!
" What worries me is that something like the National Enquirer survives and becomes the source for the history of our times. LOL!"
Couldn't do worse than the bible.
"Spank me like you mean it," Reagan to Chernenko.
There's no surprise here. Seeing a fool like Hawley continue to spread falsehoods is only par for the course in the MAGAT cult that looks to change the USA into their version of Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq, etc...
"When David Barton is beating you in a battle of ethics, you have failed at life."
We already knew this about Hawley.
If Christian Nationalists paid any attention to Jesus' words that his kingdom was not of this world then they would understand that there has never been and could never be a "Christian America".
For one thing, Christianity is very far from being a unified thing. They could never agree on what Christianity means, and would soon be killing one another over doctrinal erros.The staggering number of Christian tribes should be a far bigger problem for believers than it is.
I'd be fine with them going at each other if only they didn't intentionally cause as much collateral damage and casualties as possible.
Considering what a "unified" Christianity might do to others, perhaps it's not such a bad thing that there are differences. We don't all agree on how to interpret other documents such as the Constitution. It shouldn't be surprising then that there will be differences between Christians when it comes to understanding their faith.
Perhaps not, but Christianity has morphed into the most factionalized religion on the planet. Nothing else even comes close. To my mind, this speaks of a divine being who could will the universe into existence, but when it came to the most important message imaginable couldn't make himself understood. The staggering number of Christian sects should be a bigger problem for believers than it is.
Europe from early 16th century to a good part of 17th was a region of love and peace 🙄
Nothing makes people want to kill each other more than believing in almost the same god.
The Thirty Years War took place in that era. As many as eight million perished trying to sort out who was, or was not, a TRUE Christians.
I think you'll find that most Christians believe in Jesus and his words as recorded in the NT. There's also the possibility that God has spoken clearly but that we have misunderstood for one reason or another. Communication depends upon the audience as well.
There are words attributed to Jesus, but no one has any real idea of what he said, or even if he actually existed.
The gospel of John was revealed to be an outright forgery. And none of the other gospels was written by its alleged authors. Maybe because, like John, they never existed.
Do you apply the same degree of skepticism to other words and persons from ancient times?
The fact that kristers insist on praying in public proves they do not "believe in Jesus and his words as recorded in the NT."
We do have instances of where Jesus prayed in public but we have to recall that Jesus was warning us about being pious in public to get attention from others.
Well, you’re half right. There can never be a Christian America. But it’s because Christianity is fantasy, people may believe in it, but it isn’t real. Hailey’s manipulations and lies here prove it all too clearly.
If any Christian paid any attention to Jesus' words...
Let's just start there.
Where were those words actually written? Oh, that's right, they weren't because God-to-be was illiterate.
Well, you know Josh. He'll just take something and run with it.
Wish he'd keep right on running until he runs out of land. Then he should start swimming.
Unless it's a cliff. That would be OK too.
I would say I agree with you and NOGODZ but fauna shouldn't have to eat human waste.