235 Comments

Once again, there is no hate like Christian love. Not just that, there is no empathy like Christian insensitivity and no compassion like Christian disconnection. I'd be willing to bet a cup of coffee that Graber has never met a trans person, has no idea of the conflict that goes on within them about what their bodies are versus what their mindset tells them about themselves and what it takes to resolve that conflict. The utter lack of understanding represented by Graber and people like him is just staggering to me: that not only do they not understand, but THEY DON'T ๐—ช๐—”๐—ก๐—ง TO UNDERSTAND.

And what we do about that, other than hoping they die off and take their hate and bigotry with them, I don't know.

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May 17, 2023ยทedited May 17, 2023

"...what we do about that"

Preach love and tolerance. Create good communities and support services, because less poverty = less displacement of frustration into hate and blame.

Understanding may be a bit overrated though. I had this conversation years back with an older, conservative relative. You don't need to understand *why* someone behaves the way they do, likes the things or people they do, etc., to get along with them. Don't understand gay attraction? Can't fathom how someone could be gender dysphoric? Don't worry, nobody needs you to. All you have to do is give Bob a "hi Bob, how's it going?" instead of calling for him to be put in jail for liking Charlie. Grokking Bob's soul isn't necessary to live in peaceful, prosperous harmony with Bob.

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It really boils down to "don't be a dick".

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Preaching love and tolerance is always appropriate, so long as you keep in mind that Graber's audience is interested in neither of those qualities.

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If I've said it once, I must've said it half a million times: to someone who's used to standing ๐˜ฐ๐˜ท๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ others, "๐˜ถ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณstanding" sounds an awful lot like "defeat."

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Meeting people where they are isn't a big priority with guys like Graber. He'd rather talk down to people and be superior to them than be an equal.

And he has no idea of what he's missing.

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The reason they don't want to understand is because it requires effort: to feel another's pain, to push your own sensibilities to the limit and possibly beyond, to reach out, to make mistakes. Instead, submission, reaffirming already well engrained beliefs, and remaining static is monumentally easier.

My suggestion is to go what they accuse of the "Left:" convert their children. Joking not joking (it's already happening with the slow exodus from religion). When this cretin heads for the countryside of Spokanistan with his weapons and followers and entrenches behind barbed wire is the day we should really worry about.

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* is to DO what they...

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Understanding requires empathy. Empathy requires giving up the trope: "I am better than you, and I will make sure that you know it. I am better than you, and whatever I do to you is justified by that."

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May 17, 2023ยทedited May 17, 2023

"I'd be willing to bet a cup of coffee that Graber has never met a trans person..."

It's not a bet I would agree on. I can very well imagine that he has met trans people.

He. Just. Doesn't. Care. About. Them.

I have said that empathy - real empathy, not just a conscience-pleasing activity - is very hard to have for people you do not know.

But people like this... respectable pastor... don't have empathy for most people. Perhaps for no people. Not even those who should be closest to them.

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They think that they don't NEED to understand. A trans person is simply a target for their anger and hate.

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Maybe ... but until those Christians can call out the radical ones who dump on the trans community,, on the LGBTQ+ community, on the BIPOC community, and generally punch down on anyone they think are available to dump on, they are as much the problem as those who actually commit those offenses.

It's an old saw but an accurate one: If you're not part of the solution, ๐—ฌ๐—ข๐—จ'๐—ฅ๐—˜ ๐—ฃ๐—”๐—ฅ๐—ง ๐—ข๐—™ ๐—ง๐—›๐—˜ ๐—ฃ๐—ฅ๐—ข๐—•๐—Ÿ๐—˜๐— .

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Have yet to hear ANY christian or right wing person stand up for what are supposedly Jesusโ€™ principles & teachings, as to how we treat each other when it comes to LGBTQ issues. Their constant silence justifies and further promotes their hate of anyone different from themselves. Every time christians say nothing they are supporting trash like these hate-filled pastors. They are total hypocrites.

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And while I'm at it, I'm just as critical of the atheist community when it screws up as I am with the theists, and that goes for David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss, and anyone else who uses their platform to muck things up for those of us who are less interested in promoting ourselves than they are in promoting positive atheism and the separation of State and Church.

At the same time, I'm not so strict that I let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Lawrence is at least attempting (for what I can see) to straighten his act out. David? Not so much, for what I've seen to this date. For myself, I do what I can to keep my own house in order and to take note of Establishment Clause violations where I see them and either take action or refer them to the Freedom From Religion Foundation where appropriate. I see this as very damned important and I treat it as such.

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Iโ€™m sure heโ€™s fine with teens getting breast augmentation or nose jobs.

Transition surgeries do not happen to children, heโ€™s acting like parents are bringing in all their children to switch them in the millions. Thereโ€™s about 1000 kids on puberty blockers for transgender care/body dysmorphia in the USA. Fewer than that will eventually have surgery, as adults and after years and years of care and every other intervention available is exhausted.

If your first thought after learning something new is to kill it and present it as a warning to everyone maybe your morals arenโ€™t all that good. Maybe youโ€™re the monster.

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Sadly, it is those same people who don't get that gender dysphoria is indeed a thing that also are unable or unwilling to ask themselves, "Are we the baddies?"

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This isnโ€™t for you troubleshooter, but SlowlyBoiledFrogโ€™s comment disappeared and I would like to address it.

Thank you for the correction, I apologize for confusing body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. I canโ€™t change my comment as the edit window is expired. I meant no disrespect. I will try to remember in the future the correct term.

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What window? This morning I edited a comment I made four days ago.

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Their self-righteousness won't even let them recognize those words as a question in English.

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May 17, 2023ยทedited May 17, 2023

They haven't learned anything new. They have encountered something foreign to their kindergarten level understanding of the world and are unwilling to actually learn. Then they lash out in the fear and anger required by their ancient script.

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Kindergartners have more compassion.

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"Focus on the rare extreme to ban the whole practice" is the MO. They do the same thing with abortion: here's a pic of a late term D&E! Now you can't have mifpristone.

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No maybe about it. This preacher and others who think like him ARE the monsters.

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We know that, I was Pollyanna-ing some self reflection.

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he is probably fine with circumcision too.

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On average there are a total of 3 trans kids playing school sports in each state. State legislators have wasted countless hours and millions of taxpayers $$ creating legislature against these kids. These legislators are insane and RW Americans are the most GULLIBLE fools on the planet. Seriously America, does your society have nothing more urgent to address than this nonsense? And since when is it legal to threaten, and encourage others to threaten peopleโ€™s lives with a bullet to the head in the name of Jesus? As usual, I suppose this trash from these โ€œpastorsโ€ is all permissible until someone gets killed.

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Our right wing is using these poor children to divert attention away from the more urgent issues in society because A) they cannot govern, B) they have no policies, C) they want the more urgent issues to continue, and D) they get power and money to ignore the mass shootings, rampant poverty and homelessness, catastrophic health inequalities, and the overall state of our economy (making the Uber wealthy wealthier by stealing from the poor and whatโ€™s left of the middle class).

Oh, and this trash from the pastors is all permissible even when someone gets killed. For some reason our system turns a blind eye to stochastic terrorism (and some folks on this thread even though they like to use the term as a nym despite not understanding the idea at all) even when there can be a direct link traced to the folks spreading it.

This problem isnโ€™t a problem, it wonโ€™t develop into a problem and only the bullies care that a few kids are even transgender, and even fewer are trying to play sports. And as Iโ€™ve said before, if these aholes cared about womenโ€™s/girlโ€™s sports, they would be funding it and watching it and ensuring work and girls were actually having access to it without a federal law demanding equality.

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Ever notice how these days we have parental warning labels on games, albums, television shows, and movies but not on this kind of pastor?

This guy is promoting violence for the sake of his god, and that's apparently A-Okay and no parental warnings need to be made. Seriously now, we all know the reason nobody's advocating for warning labels on this kind of stuff is purely because it's religious in nature, not because the labels aren't needed. Sure, okay, Graber isn't actually shooting people yet, but he's encouraging others to do so without doubt, and we've already had entirely too many school shootings this year as it stands. (Yes, I am afraid to check the current number.) Seems to me that if we're going to provide ratings systems for other entertainment mediums that kids might consume, we should apply the same to these sorts of pastors who love preaching violence, intolerance, and hate - and truthfully, ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ด๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ญ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ฅ๐˜ฐ ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ ๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ด๐˜ข๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด.

I know it's not likely to happen anytime soon, but I still think it'd be a worthwhile goal. Maybe it'll happen someday regardless of the pressure to prevent it.

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Did you know that one translation of the German "graber" is "gravedigger"?

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I was not aware, no. Several jokes in poor taste about how Graber is/should be digging his own spring to mind, however.

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A violence warning and a do not go alone warning.

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Graber is Glenn Beck. Perfectly willing to egg people on to do some ultraviolence, but cowers under his deck when it happens and denies any part in that violence.

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I have had my fill of these certified loonytoons threatening my life. GET RID OF HATE PREACHERS NOW!

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I'm coming to realize, more and more, that people like Grubby here aren't scary. Oh, they're monsters, make no mistake. I absolutely believe they'd follow through on their threats, given half a chance- or, more likely, since they're cowards to a one, have someone else follow through ๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ them- but they're not actually ๐˜ด๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜บ. Laughable, sometimes; a bit droll. More often just groan-inducing, like listening to the same bad song on a broken record over and over and over and over and ๐˜ฐ๐˜ท๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ again.

Everyone even slightly inclined to be reasonable can look at a hate preacher like fucko-du-jour up top and immediately recognize that they're a monster. It's obvious; they wear it on their sleeve. The only people who would willingly follow them are other monsters, and no one outside their bubble listens to anything they have to say.

It's not the bile-spewing bigots I'm most afraid of. Not the ones who are frothing at the mouth with hate, screaming to anyone who'll listen how they'd just love to murder us. ๐˜›๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜บ'๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ not the scary ones.

It's the ones who speak calmly and smile. The ones who come across as rational- the ones who have the guile and wit to convince the uninformed but otherwise reasonable masses that the harm they're doing is just common sense. Those are the people responsible for half the country- and no, that isn't hyperbole; if anything, it's an understatement- becoming hostile territory.

The calm ones are the real threat, because people ๐˜ญ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ to them. Their arguments almost make sense, if you haven't done your homework on the issues. I sometimes see their talking points pop up even here, from time to time, when someone just hasn't looked into things deeply enough. They're insidious. They manage to get into the heads of people who would have been- who ๐˜ด๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ญ๐˜ฅ have been- allies, but for a seed of doubt planted in bad faith, and it's not always easy to dig that seed out.

Because when it's not just naked hate, it can't just be dismissed out of hand like the clown in today's article. It has to be thoroughly and carefully debunked, or else ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ come across as the unreasonable ones. A carefully-constructed lie has the ring of truth, and it isn't until it's held up side by side with facts and evidence that it's revealed for the sham it truly is.

So, laugh at Grubby; he's a ridiculous cartoon villain, and he richly deserves it... but ๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ณ the bigots who prefer to do their work with a pen rather than a pulpit. ๐˜›๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ด๐˜ฆ people are the ones who really make shit like ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ด possible: https://apnews.com/article/desantis-florida-lgbtq-education-health-c68a7e5fe5cf22ab8cca324b00644119

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โ€œ๐บ๐‘œ๐‘‘ ๐‘‘๐‘œ๐‘’๐‘  ๐‘›๐‘œ๐‘ก ๐‘š๐‘Ž๐‘˜๐‘’ ๐‘š๐‘–๐‘ ๐‘ก๐‘Ž๐‘˜๐‘’๐‘  ๐‘ค๐‘–๐‘กโ„Ž ๐‘œ๐‘ข๐‘Ÿ ๐‘โ„Ž๐‘–๐‘™๐‘‘๐‘Ÿ๐‘’๐‘›,โ€ ๐น๐‘–๐‘›๐‘’ ๐‘ ๐‘Ž๐‘–๐‘‘.

Uh-huh, sure. Let's ask an actual trans kid what they think about that statement. Oh, but that would be too inconvenient, to actually deal in human beings and stuff like FACTS. ๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™‚๏ธ

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Yep, God never fucks up...hence the complete absence of congenital birth defects.

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And my need to wear corrective lenses to correct YHVHs "perfect" design.

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And my ability to do pointes without ballet slippers ๐Ÿ˜

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All things are possible if you have the right attitude.

(sorry, i simply can't resist puns)

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Are you looking down on me ? ๐Ÿ˜

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May 17, 2023ยทedited May 17, 2023

Corrective surgery is a thing. For all sorts of ills, for all sorts of reasons. Not even a Christian Republican representative in Florida can be so ignorant not to know that.

What he thus means is, of course: "God does not make that kind of mistakes with our children that I disagree with."

The glasses he wears... he has no problems with these. He doesn't think that his bad eyes are mistakes by God, or a divine punishment that he would have to bear.

But what other people need - what other, educated in this field people say other people need... he has to approve that. Because God must only make mistakes that Mr. Fine agrees with.

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Forgot about this and yet I had one when I was 16. One of my breasts was twice as big (it was not a tumor) as the other and needed to be reduced.

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May 17, 2023ยทedited May 17, 2023

As long with any kid born with a disability or genetic condition.

By the way deNaze, one word. Hijras.

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Wow! Can't you just feel all that Christian love? Neither can I. This man embodies almost everything I detest about religion in general. Imagine a world where preachers like him held the power of life and death. There wouldn't be much in the way of anything I would classify as moral. As always, never forget his enablers in the pews who fund him, are just as bad as he is.

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Medieval Christendom with its torture and executions and censorship seems to me to be a good picture of what we could expect if people like this preacher were in charge. Of course, I'd be one of the first ones lined up against the wall because I would be considered a traitor to their faith. If there's anything they hate more than gays, it's believers who don't go along with their views.

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"All of that, he claims, is what the Bible commands."

1. We don't live in a theocracy, so it wouldn't matter if the Bible did say that.

2. When a person says, "The Bible says..." what they really mean is "their particular translation of the Bible from the original Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew read through their particular exegesis that they learned from people steeped in their culture, politics, and point of view says..."

In conclusion, you can kindly fuck off with your white supremacist, hateful fundamentalist reading of the Bible, dude. You don't get a say in the medical decisions of other people.

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Yet. With the current Supreme Court people like him might get a say soon.

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I think i am going to do some research and learn how to say "Have you read the original?"in Hebrew and Greek (IIRC nobody knows enough about aramaic for that language) so that when bible bots say 'the bible says" I can spout that out in the original language and when they look at me blank faced I can say "I fuckin KNEW you have know clue"

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โ€œwe can string them up above a bridgeโ€ฆ so that the public can see the consequences of that kind of wickedness.โ€

So, literally Gilead. Ms Atwood must be disgusted that people are reading her book as a how to instead of a warning.

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That was what I thought too. It really scares me. If USA slides further to horror show, which other countries will follow?

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I was gonna say (from the Laundry files) London after the Mandate takes over. But he is fine with trans peeps and EVEN worship of other gods.. as long as you put HIM first (kinda like what yawyeh says in his big book of BS)

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"They need to be convicted in trial and immediately shot in the back of the head"

Convicted of what? Incitement of children? Hmm...

Gallows humor, but I had to laugh at his "find me another preacher in Spokane..." comment. The minnow seems mighty pleased he's the biggest fish in his bowl.

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Big fish, small bowl. Does he also drive a flashy car to make up for his other shortcomings?

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How long before he gets banned from Youtube?

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Not soon enough.

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Incitement to violence. Arrest his sorry ass.

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"So there should be no excuse to not put these people to death. No excuse whatsoeverโ€ฆ"

Umm..."Thou shall not kill".

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He missed that part of his book.

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Much like conservatives reading the Constitution, they stop at number 2.

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They are number 2. Big, steaming piles of it.

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THEY SKIP right past all the way to #2.

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"Let me tell you, there are very, very few people out there in the world today that are actually fighting the spiritual fight."

Shooting someone in the back of the head is a spiritual fight?! What does he think a physical fight would be, then?

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It's funny... I wouldn't regard shooting someone in the back of the head as ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜บ kind of fight. The word "fight" to me generally means that the participants, willing or not, are at the very least ๐˜ง๐˜ข๐˜ค๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ each other. A shot to the back of the head is an ๐˜ฆ๐˜น๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ถ๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ. It's what happens ๐˜ข๐˜ง๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ the fight, when the victor is a murderous asshole who isn't satisfied with merely winning, but can't abide their victim continuing to exist even in defeat.

I somehow doubt that Grubby has ever been in a ๐˜ง๐˜ช๐˜จ๐˜ฉ๐˜ต. If he had been, he might have spared a thought to whether or not he'd have liked to be executed for losing one.

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Imagine a Muslim spouting hatred and violence against Christians. Wonder what the result of THAT would be?

Actually, no wonder at all. He'd be shipped off to Gitmo as a religious terrorist. Just as the religious terrorist Graber should be.

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It's different because pretexts.

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founding

The macabre Mr. Graber is seriously disturbed and needs immediate psychiatric treatment. Unfortunately, he's clever enough to just barely stay outside of a locked mental facility. Advocating mayhem, murder, and massacre by "the government" will not get his civil rights put on hold. Even when (and it's when, not if) someone in his audience who is a tiny bit more impulsive decides that he must do "God's work" with an AR-15, the causal connection to Graber will be very difficult to prove. Until blood is actually on his hands rather than figuratively on his hands, he will continue to spew his calling for Old Testament horrors.

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Unless he is stopped. Remember, others have AR 15s too. Unfortunately we tend to be far more mentally stable.

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May 17, 2023ยทedited May 17, 2023

"...abortion doctors should also be executed."

Should your god's priests be executed for willfully causing miscarriages/abortions, Grabass? That's what they did in Numbers 5:11-31 as a "test for an unfaithful wife" (no test for an unfaithful husband in your patriarchal religion, of course).

How about your god's armies going into Samaria and executing pregnant women by cutting their bellies open with swords, as in Hosea 13:16? For that matter, how about your god itself aborting untold pregnant women in the great flood he created?

There is no condemnation of abortion anywhere in your hole-y book, Grabass. None whatsoever. You have no scriptural basis for your anti-abortion stance.

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No condemnation. Only support and encouragement.

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OT - What happens when a Fฬตeฬตdฬตeฬตrฬตaฬตlฬตiฬตsฬตtฬต Fascist Society member gets pulled over

https://comicskingdom.com/bizarro/2023-05-17

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Funny thing: there's also no mention of cars, trucks, motorcycles, or any other ICE-powered and wheeled vehicles. No mention of electronics or steam engines or lasers, either, yet there are laws and regulations handling them and lots of other stuff.

Originalists need to learn that the law doesn't stop with the Constitution.

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How about Jewish space lasers?

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Hey, if Marjorie Taylor Greene can actually demonstrate the existence of such a device, I'm sure the FDA Center for Devices and Radiological Health will have something to say about their operation, use, and possible licensing.

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And if said demonstration should, by chance, test the targeting system of said lasers on MTG's forehead, that's all good, huh?

Pardon me, I'm going to bang my head on my desk a few times to remind myself that violence is not a solution. Again. Why isn't this working?

/silly

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