Check me on this, but this isn't just a State / Church issue, but a FREE SPEECH ISSUE. If Mike Turner wants to disallow communications with the MRFF, that is pretty obviously impeding the free speech of anyone in the military, never mind making life harder and less workable for any non-Christian in the armed services.
And I am SO GLAD that Mike Weinstein has gotten his paws on this ... 'cuz he'll make Turner wish he'd never opened his mouth!
Also something in the 1st Amendment about citizens being able to petition the government for redress of grievances, but for gosh sake, don't contact anyone who could possibly HELP you do it simply because they've done it hundreds of times before.
Also free press, as MRFF puts put news, freedom to petition, because they send requests to the government, and possibly free assembly. Four out of five first amendment freedoms, possibly all of them.
The people who would break down the barriers between church and state, seem to share the delusion it will be their particular tribe calling the shots for everyone else. What they should be imagining is the tribe they dislike most having control over their lives, as that will definitely be someone's reality. If you want to see what genuine persecution looks like, . . . hand power to the preachers.
You’re right that they should be, but they’re relying on it being them and they do not care that others different from them will live that reality. That’s the point to them. The cruelty is the point. It isn’t directed at them, so they delight in it.
For sure. If the evangelical preachers ever had the secular power they appear to dream of, they would be killing one another over doctrinal errors within a week. In any event, what this idiot Congressman is trying to do is institutionalize Christian privilege in the military.
I always ask them, "If there's no separation between church and state, which church gets to be in charge? Yours? The one across the street? The next town over? Who gets to be in charge?" They sputter. I’ve yet to hear a cohesive answer.
Seems to me that if push comes to shove, the MRFF can just change the group's name. I realize that would likely be a last resort for good reason, but considering just how petty this law would be there comes a point where something has to give.
Mr. Turner strikes me as something of a schoolyard bully here; he honestly seems to think that everyone else needs to play by the rules in his head but those very same rules just don't apply to him. The US military does not belong to any one religious faith for very good reasons and attempting to 'fix' that by writing poorly considered legislation won't change it.
Every day we have to explain that religious freedom does not mean slapping Christian imagery all over government facilities. If anything that is the opposite of religious freedom, as it promotes only one religion being acceptable for our government. Which is the very first thing our bill of rights protects us from, establishing a state religion.
Go further to remember that the military enforces government will at gunpoint, meaning forcing religion at gunpoint onto the population of the country. The excuse that it’s just congress that can’t create a state sponsored religion so the states can do it just doesn’t fly when we’re talking about the armed forces. Even the National Guard is part and parcel of the federal government despite being mostly funded and controlled by each state. You cannot separate them, they’re trained by, funded through, and part of the federal government (their commander in chief is still the president and the chain of command continues through the federal generals, it does not stop at the state level.).
Again I ask, how is demanding one religion be highlighted on everything no matter who is present, who you’re honoring, what is happening? It is neutral to not include secularism, it is not neutral to just default to the majority religion.
Gross. Clearly they understand their religion isn’t palatable unless folks are suffering, they admit to it over and over. Then they’re delighting in the violent vocabulary of forcing their beliefs on, not just the recruits, but the people in the countries we occupy. “The special forces hunt men and we hunt men for Christ.” Disgusting. How is that different from ISIS invading a country to enforce Sharia law on it? “But it’s Jesus, it’s the right religion.” Fuck that.
I forgot to mention below that when I arrived at basic training the first thing they gave me, before the uniform and at the time I swore in, was a field manual and a pocket Bible. So many bibles filled the trash can before we even left the room. But they never should have been handed out like that, it would have been better if they were just available on a table to take if we chose, but they were given to us with a required book, implying that taking the Bible was mandatory.
Had I received a Bible at the arrival center I probably would have carried it throughout my service. I wonder if I would have ever broken away from the BS if they had done that.
The Gideons came round to my school about 60 years ago and gave out little red bibles – roughly at the time of Mao tse Tung's little red book. At the end of the day if you had a drone you would have seen little red dots all over the school. I'm a little ashamed that few of us thought to put them in the bins.
Yes, remember that well, the pavements outside my kids' high school being littered with them over 20yrs ago. I was in Austria recently and found a Gideon bible in my hotel room. I was a bit surprised, I think they're much rarer now in european hotels. As a former fundy, once steeped in this fantasy book....it really bugged me....I couldn't leave it...I'm not a vandal, but let's just say a litter bin at Innsbruck airport was fuller after I'd passed it than it had been before that.
Gideons UK split away as, by law, they had to give equal status to women. My pastor hubby was once invited to join, late 1980s maybe and he turned them down - which others thought odd, it was apparently an honour to be invited. We both objected to the fact that the wiminfolk of Gideons had to join the auxiliary or some such, cos, as possessors of a vagina, we were lesser mortals!
My hubs was in the gulf war, he was given a pocket Bible as well, I joined a couple years after (1993). He still has his, but only as a souvenir, I don’t think he cracked it open while he was in and I know he hasn’t for 25 years since.
Wow, I watched it only until the "Rock the Fort" at Ft. Lost in the Woods, where I took Basic. This is absolutely scary to me. This is what they will use on propaganda reels in any country we go to war with.
There was an article not THAT long ago – I think in the Atlantic, maybe the New Yorker – which laid out the whole evangelical whosis in the U.S. Air Force. It sounded awful. In fact worse than the guy in the video.
I was in the Army. The Army of the 60's had it's issues but proselytizing on the part of evangelicals wasn't one of them. That problem would have been dealt with from the bottom up in Vietnam.
For me, it varied between different chaplains. Most were - to me - background characters/NPCs. Some were very good folks whom I enjoyed working & conversing with. One in particular stands out as a pushy proselytizing asshole, that was in the National Guard...he ran some fundie church for his day job and couldn't seem to ramp it back while in uniform.
There were prayers at all the big ceremonial parades, but no imagery was stapled up around base that I recall. I will admit that I wasn’t aware of the problem at that time, I was not really an atheist, just not practicing. The chaplain was the main outlet for accessing entertainment for me in Korea, but he never talked religion at events. But that was 20-30 years ago, things have changed quite a bit since then.
I was in until around the Gulf war. I remember how the US was accused of propagating a "holy war" in the middle east. Turning the US military into a Christian fighting force WILL give people the right to declare that any time we move our troops. In the eyes of the civilized world, we will be no different than the Taliban.
Atheists have been serving in the American military since Valley Forge. Not only that (get ready to clutch your heart), so have gay men. Christians do not own the US military. Fuck you.
If I were still in the Army, this would crisp my bacon. And I guarantee, I would talk to anyone I wanted to, including this group. They weren't around in the 70s, but my Baphomet poster got rid of one potential room mate with bible thumping tendencies.
Nah. He's right. I'm not obese (Ride horse five times a week, try to walk a couple miles other days), but heavier than I should be. I like those carbs and fats too much. Out with the chips, french bread, hambergers, etc.
DM had a mysogynist douchbag for doctor for years but despite my nagging she refused to change.
One of the rare time I had to use him "You are too fat, you should eat less cheese and less meat" At that time I was in my third year being vegan bot that he would ask because of courses he knew better than me what I eat, plus he had a tantrum a few years before when DM (legitimely worried) told him I was a vegetarian "I hope your daughter still eat seafood and fish" 🙄
I had a Chinese doctor once who made all sorts of assumptions about the way we lived. To be fair he was working – and we were living – in a fairly working class area at the time. But I took my son to see him years ago and there was something wrong with his stomach and the doc said "I suppose you only have meat and potatoes and gravy for dinner right and white bread? Not Vogels* or something?"
I said – "Well yesterday we had Indian food, and I use bread with a much higher fibre content than Vogels – and you obviously don't know much about bread. Or what we eat."
I'd just finished a university course about Chinese/Indian/Western systems of medicine, and I was out of patience with bloody doctors.
I had the most wonderful doctor from the time I was around 24, 25 until I was in my 60s.. But then, some years back he retired. Can't begrudge him that. He was an incredible diagnostician and caught a (thankfully benign) tumor on my parathyroid gland, just from my bloodwork. On my second doctor since he retired. None of his successors have been anywhere near as good and as thorough as he. My SIL is vegetarian. I can't go that far, but year, trimming the fat, smaller portions, not so many carbs., etc.
Don't get me started on misogynist docs. So help me, I still think one of the OB/GYNs I saw years ago was one and saying things didn't go well is an understatement of epic proportions.
When my beet friend was pregnant with her daughter she was not satisfied with hers. After an exam as she was leaving, she heard another one chatting kindly with nurses and directly went to ask him if he could take her as a patient. Turned out he could and couldn't, his vacations were at the same time as her due date. Since she was healthy and my niece too, they decided on a premature birth and a C-section.
Of course Turner's trying to hide this unconstitutional piece of crap. What Christians can't openly bully through, they endeavor to do by engaging in skullduggery.
Oh, and what a surprise. Turner never put on the uniform and served his country. His father did, but not him. Did he have other priorities like Dick Cheney?
Regarding the Fallen Comrade Table setup, I much prefer it without a Bible. I'd be fine with a blank book, representing all faith perspectives including 'none'.
Ah yes, those mean, meanie, bullies demanding everyone be treated equally! How dare they! Doesn’t Mikey know that without their privileges that Christians vanish in a puff of illogic? Plus I heard he’s one of -those- people. You know what I mean.
…
…
… bald. Bald people. Look, it’s just as relevant as his Jewish last name is. 😏
"If men could get pregnant, abortion clinics would be like Starbucks. There would be two on every block and four in every airport. And the morning after pill would come in different flavors like sea salt and cool ranch."
But then, I'm an omnivore and quite adventurous with regard to culinary experiences. Heck, I made a batch of chicken paws last week. (Used this as a guide: https://izzycooking.com/chicken-feet/ )
Check me on this, but this isn't just a State / Church issue, but a FREE SPEECH ISSUE. If Mike Turner wants to disallow communications with the MRFF, that is pretty obviously impeding the free speech of anyone in the military, never mind making life harder and less workable for any non-Christian in the armed services.
And I am SO GLAD that Mike Weinstein has gotten his paws on this ... 'cuz he'll make Turner wish he'd never opened his mouth!
Also something in the 1st Amendment about citizens being able to petition the government for redress of grievances, but for gosh sake, don't contact anyone who could possibly HELP you do it simply because they've done it hundreds of times before.
Also free press, as MRFF puts put news, freedom to petition, because they send requests to the government, and possibly free assembly. Four out of five first amendment freedoms, possibly all of them.
The cruelty isn't just the point, it's their core function.
The people who would break down the barriers between church and state, seem to share the delusion it will be their particular tribe calling the shots for everyone else. What they should be imagining is the tribe they dislike most having control over their lives, as that will definitely be someone's reality. If you want to see what genuine persecution looks like, . . . hand power to the preachers.
You’re right that they should be, but they’re relying on it being them and they do not care that others different from them will live that reality. That’s the point to them. The cruelty is the point. It isn’t directed at them, so they delight in it.
For sure. If the evangelical preachers ever had the secular power they appear to dream of, they would be killing one another over doctrinal errors within a week. In any event, what this idiot Congressman is trying to do is institutionalize Christian privilege in the military.
I wonder what would happen if they posted the sixth commandment in these same places.
IOKIYAR
Not anymore!
I always ask them, "If there's no separation between church and state, which church gets to be in charge? Yours? The one across the street? The next town over? Who gets to be in charge?" They sputter. I’ve yet to hear a cohesive answer.
Seems to me that if push comes to shove, the MRFF can just change the group's name. I realize that would likely be a last resort for good reason, but considering just how petty this law would be there comes a point where something has to give.
Mr. Turner strikes me as something of a schoolyard bully here; he honestly seems to think that everyone else needs to play by the rules in his head but those very same rules just don't apply to him. The US military does not belong to any one religious faith for very good reasons and attempting to 'fix' that by writing poorly considered legislation won't change it.
Let's not forget, there is also the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers:
https://militaryatheists.org/about/
SPLITTERS!
Donated bux
Or include a random punctuation mark in the name, a la sovereign citizens. Or a misspelling.
Military Religiush Freedom Foundation.
Rep. Turner wuld tink it the kowerk spellin.
FFRM.
Every day we have to explain that religious freedom does not mean slapping Christian imagery all over government facilities. If anything that is the opposite of religious freedom, as it promotes only one religion being acceptable for our government. Which is the very first thing our bill of rights protects us from, establishing a state religion.
Go further to remember that the military enforces government will at gunpoint, meaning forcing religion at gunpoint onto the population of the country. The excuse that it’s just congress that can’t create a state sponsored religion so the states can do it just doesn’t fly when we’re talking about the armed forces. Even the National Guard is part and parcel of the federal government despite being mostly funded and controlled by each state. You cannot separate them, they’re trained by, funded through, and part of the federal government (their commander in chief is still the president and the chain of command continues through the federal generals, it does not stop at the state level.).
Again I ask, how is demanding one religion be highlighted on everything no matter who is present, who you’re honoring, what is happening? It is neutral to not include secularism, it is not neutral to just default to the majority religion.
The following was posted to YouTube 11 years ago, and I wonder what if anything has changed since then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB1UifGIqaw
Gross. Clearly they understand their religion isn’t palatable unless folks are suffering, they admit to it over and over. Then they’re delighting in the violent vocabulary of forcing their beliefs on, not just the recruits, but the people in the countries we occupy. “The special forces hunt men and we hunt men for Christ.” Disgusting. How is that different from ISIS invading a country to enforce Sharia law on it? “But it’s Jesus, it’s the right religion.” Fuck that.
I forgot to mention below that when I arrived at basic training the first thing they gave me, before the uniform and at the time I swore in, was a field manual and a pocket Bible. So many bibles filled the trash can before we even left the room. But they never should have been handed out like that, it would have been better if they were just available on a table to take if we chose, but they were given to us with a required book, implying that taking the Bible was mandatory.
Had I received a Bible at the arrival center I probably would have carried it throughout my service. I wonder if I would have ever broken away from the BS if they had done that.
The Gideons came round to my school about 60 years ago and gave out little red bibles – roughly at the time of Mao tse Tung's little red book. At the end of the day if you had a drone you would have seen little red dots all over the school. I'm a little ashamed that few of us thought to put them in the bins.
Yes, remember that well, the pavements outside my kids' high school being littered with them over 20yrs ago. I was in Austria recently and found a Gideon bible in my hotel room. I was a bit surprised, I think they're much rarer now in european hotels. As a former fundy, once steeped in this fantasy book....it really bugged me....I couldn't leave it...I'm not a vandal, but let's just say a litter bin at Innsbruck airport was fuller after I'd passed it than it had been before that.
Gideons UK split away as, by law, they had to give equal status to women. My pastor hubby was once invited to join, late 1980s maybe and he turned them down - which others thought odd, it was apparently an honour to be invited. We both objected to the fact that the wiminfolk of Gideons had to join the auxiliary or some such, cos, as possessors of a vagina, we were lesser mortals!
My hubs was in the gulf war, he was given a pocket Bible as well, I joined a couple years after (1993). He still has his, but only as a souvenir, I don’t think he cracked it open while he was in and I know he hasn’t for 25 years since.
Wow, I watched it only until the "Rock the Fort" at Ft. Lost in the Woods, where I took Basic. This is absolutely scary to me. This is what they will use on propaganda reels in any country we go to war with.
There was an article not THAT long ago – I think in the Atlantic, maybe the New Yorker – which laid out the whole evangelical whosis in the U.S. Air Force. It sounded awful. In fact worse than the guy in the video.
When you were in the army did you encounter this problem a lot ?
I was in the Army. The Army of the 60's had it's issues but proselytizing on the part of evangelicals wasn't one of them. That problem would have been dealt with from the bottom up in Vietnam.
For me, it varied between different chaplains. Most were - to me - background characters/NPCs. Some were very good folks whom I enjoyed working & conversing with. One in particular stands out as a pushy proselytizing asshole, that was in the National Guard...he ran some fundie church for his day job and couldn't seem to ramp it back while in uniform.
There were prayers at all the big ceremonial parades, but no imagery was stapled up around base that I recall. I will admit that I wasn’t aware of the problem at that time, I was not really an atheist, just not practicing. The chaplain was the main outlet for accessing entertainment for me in Korea, but he never talked religion at events. But that was 20-30 years ago, things have changed quite a bit since then.
Life depends on it? https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/356377410_809220670615634_2434778991523977237_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p843x403&_nc_cat=108&cb=99be929b-59f725be&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=CwmpInwAZDEAX9E51ac&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfDoBDSGxF3TkCiHN0iBXaeoOXEzmYfSJhLzFPG-2AqFbw&oe=64A089B6
I was in until around the Gulf war. I remember how the US was accused of propagating a "holy war" in the middle east. Turning the US military into a Christian fighting force WILL give people the right to declare that any time we move our troops. In the eyes of the civilized world, we will be no different than the Taliban.
In 2 years (Vietnam era) I went to church exactly ZERO times.
Hey, Turner...
Atheists have been serving in the American military since Valley Forge. Not only that (get ready to clutch your heart), so have gay men. Christians do not own the US military. Fuck you.
If I were still in the Army, this would crisp my bacon. And I guarantee, I would talk to anyone I wanted to, including this group. They weren't around in the 70s, but my Baphomet poster got rid of one potential room mate with bible thumping tendencies.
Mmmmm, crispy bacon!
And shrimp!!! Eating a ham sandwich on good Friday at 2PM pisses off a lot of gods.
Sigh. Doctor says I need to lose weight. No more bacon. Sigh.
"Sigh. Doctor says I need to lose weight. No more bacon. Sigh."
Find a new doctor, fast. ;)
Oops, I should have scrolled down. : )
GMTA. :D
Nah. He's right. I'm not obese (Ride horse five times a week, try to walk a couple miles other days), but heavier than I should be. I like those carbs and fats too much. Out with the chips, french bread, hambergers, etc.
DM had a mysogynist douchbag for doctor for years but despite my nagging she refused to change.
One of the rare time I had to use him "You are too fat, you should eat less cheese and less meat" At that time I was in my third year being vegan bot that he would ask because of courses he knew better than me what I eat, plus he had a tantrum a few years before when DM (legitimely worried) told him I was a vegetarian "I hope your daughter still eat seafood and fish" 🙄
I had a Chinese doctor once who made all sorts of assumptions about the way we lived. To be fair he was working – and we were living – in a fairly working class area at the time. But I took my son to see him years ago and there was something wrong with his stomach and the doc said "I suppose you only have meat and potatoes and gravy for dinner right and white bread? Not Vogels* or something?"
I said – "Well yesterday we had Indian food, and I use bread with a much higher fibre content than Vogels – and you obviously don't know much about bread. Or what we eat."
I'd just finished a university course about Chinese/Indian/Western systems of medicine, and I was out of patience with bloody doctors.
*Upmarket bread.
Funny the pediatrist DM trusted most with me (and she was right) was Vietnamese, Doctor Huang Co/Cuo Lang (not sure for the spelling).
I had the most wonderful doctor from the time I was around 24, 25 until I was in my 60s.. But then, some years back he retired. Can't begrudge him that. He was an incredible diagnostician and caught a (thankfully benign) tumor on my parathyroid gland, just from my bloodwork. On my second doctor since he retired. None of his successors have been anywhere near as good and as thorough as he. My SIL is vegetarian. I can't go that far, but year, trimming the fat, smaller portions, not so many carbs., etc.
It's okay, it simply means that you are not fit to be one 😉
My mother is omni too. We don't try to control what the other eat.
Don't get me started on misogynist docs. So help me, I still think one of the OB/GYNs I saw years ago was one and saying things didn't go well is an understatement of epic proportions.
When my beet friend was pregnant with her daughter she was not satisfied with hers. After an exam as she was leaving, she heard another one chatting kindly with nurses and directly went to ask him if he could take her as a patient. Turned out he could and couldn't, his vacations were at the same time as her due date. Since she was healthy and my niece too, they decided on a premature birth and a C-section.
Time for a new doctor.
Did you think to try turkey or banana peel bacon ?
Of course Turner's trying to hide this unconstitutional piece of crap. What Christians can't openly bully through, they endeavor to do by engaging in skullduggery.
Oh, and what a surprise. Turner never put on the uniform and served his country. His father did, but not him. Did he have other priorities like Dick Cheney?
If the amendment had any merit they wouldn't need to sneak it into another bill.
GQP: "Cancel culture!!! Oh wait, this is us doing it. In that case, it's all right."
Regarding the Fallen Comrade Table setup, I much prefer it without a Bible. I'd be fine with a blank book, representing all faith perspectives including 'none'.
Ah yes, those mean, meanie, bullies demanding everyone be treated equally! How dare they! Doesn’t Mikey know that without their privileges that Christians vanish in a puff of illogic? Plus I heard he’s one of -those- people. You know what I mean.
…
…
… bald. Bald people. Look, it’s just as relevant as his Jewish last name is. 😏
https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/356631445_1448347559284935_2427310586767086420_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&cb=99be929b-59f725be&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=a8SwjMiZF8EAX-hSMqF&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&oh=00_AfBLGHjjiTjP-HN3Frwe7NrkDfvXOcpY8xJlokSOcTSqPQ&oe=649FB71F
Marvelous. :)
As a veteran, I approve of the tactics, intensity, and vulgarity. This state of affairs has existed for far too long.
I second that, my fellow vet.
Too fucking right.
Make 'em pay.
So….not even pretending anymore that they aren’t fascist.
(I’m late to the discussion and haven’t read the comments so I’m almost certainly not the first to make this observation.)
Why izzis? https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/356667210_6551752834904966_7695268222148928261_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&cb=99be929b-59f725be&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=4w3ezdYO6IwAX-lVpt7&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCAeoo3VsSqkLBAkg-8fv0-98V2CHH0PhYBAeXhMd7ozA&oe=649F8227
"If men could get pregnant, abortion clinics would be like Starbucks. There would be two on every block and four in every airport. And the morning after pill would come in different flavors like sea salt and cool ranch."
No sriracha buffalo wing?
Why would you spoil sriracha with meat ? 😋
Why would you spoil meat with sriracha? 🥵
I guess you are not fond of Tteokbokki either 😏
If this is the stuff, it looks tasty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tteokbokki
But then, I'm an omnivore and quite adventurous with regard to culinary experiences. Heck, I made a batch of chicken paws last week. (Used this as a guide: https://izzycooking.com/chicken-feet/ )
Or wasabi?
Because they're women. Read your Bible.
😉