328 Comments

There isn't a shred of evidence to support the claim Christianity makes for better people. Some of the most mean-spirit and intolerant people I have ever known never missed church. It isn't as if this country suffers from a shortage of churches either. Kids have ample opportunity to seek out the clergy if they so desire . . . on their own time, not the school's. Chaplains, paid or otherwise, have absolutely no business in the public schools paid for with everyone's tax dollars.

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Indeed. There are good Christians out there and bad Christians out there, and the same may be said for any group of people, atheists included. Interestingly, there's something that the carpenter-turned-rabbi said that helps to resolve the whole business:

𝐵𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑓𝑟𝑢𝑖𝑡𝑠 𝑠ℎ𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑘𝑛𝑜𝑤 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚.

-- Matthew 7:15

Problem is, among too many Christians, those fruits are long since gone rotten.

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For some, the fruit is rotten from the time the flower gets pollinated.

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+++

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Don’t forget there have been a good number of pedophiles found among all religions and the so called chaplains don’t seem to have much in the way of credentials. The line for lawyers keeps getting longer. Please keep these kids safe from all kinds of predators.

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Joe Jervis (JoeMyGod) has been posting press accounts of xtian pedophiles/rapists for years. They are mostly 'youth pastors' - with nary a Drag Queen in the lot. It is a prodigious list. He did a running series with tallies that ran from Dec 2022 through to Dec 2024. As I remember it was over 300 of these creeps.

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Yep. I mentioned this aspect about 8 minutes ago. Glad someone else picked up on it.

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The New Zealand Royal Commission of Inquiry found that of the 655,000 people affected by religious care from 1950 to 2019, 256,000 were abused or neglected. This is a very large sampling. It suggests that one third of all the people placed under religious care WILL be mistreated. The odds are so bad that the people are being warned against any further faith-based care. Its just not worth the gamble.

https://www.abuseincare.org.nz/reports/whanaketia/preliminaries/executive-summary/

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There is, however, some evidence indicating that at least some varieties of Christianity actually make people worse.

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+++ I believe that. The folks at Jonestown, and the Branch Dividians come to mind.

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I think it is pretty obvious that Arguello is a Talibangelical Dominionist who has a fanatic's confidence that the 'received wisdom' he believes is the only truth there is and that anyone who disagrees with him is 'demonic'... yet his inerrant bible states quite clearly in 2 Corinthians 4:4 that Satan is the god of this world. It has nothing good to say about him, but if he doesn't want to incur Satan's wrath, he would do well to modify his attacks. And, what of the poor kids who would be the victims of the xtian preachers/chaplains who would have access to them. Tell me where in the Constitution it says the xtianists and only they have the right to preach to other people's kids in a public school?

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They never stop trying to institutionalize their sense of Christian privilege. Bertrand Russell summed it up pretty well when he said, "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, while wiser people are full of doubt."

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Priests and clergy are some of the most criminal folks around, and they commit some of the worst crimes. If the religion cannot keep the clergy moral, what hope for the children.

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+++ Religion and morality are not mutually exclusive, but they are very far from the same thing.

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Religious morality boils down to abject obedience, which can have moral outcomes, but in itself is not moral.

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But why does their all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipresent god not cause these criminal religious functionaries to be better people?

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Because he's an omni-asshole.

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Either that or onmi-absent! 😁

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Oh but they won't be promoting their religion! You can tell that, because the program requires all candidates to be an “individual who is officially authorized by the leadership of a religion under the religion’s governing principles to conduct religious exercises.”

Uh. Um. Okay let me come in again.

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Religious exercises described in The Vatican Rag by Tom Lehrer -

First you get down on your knees,

Fiddle with your rosaries,

Bow your head with great respect,

And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

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I have been told by more than a few people that the point of Christianity isn't to make people better. Apparently, it's really just a 'get out of Hell' card for quite a number of practitioners.

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Christianity is the get out of the morgue free card.

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I’m a Christian, and you’re 100% right. Unfortunately, there is a ton of manipulation from pastors and religious people. These people do not belong in schools among impressionable kids.

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They rejected chaplains not because of the questionable constitutionality of chaplains in public schools, but becausethey couldn't find a way to let Christian chaplains in while excluding all others. They did the right thing for the wrong reason. And since the vote was 3-2, a significant percentage doesn't understand even that. Two of the five board members thought it wouold be perfectly acceptable for the government to define every non-Christian religion as invalid. Two of the five saw nothing wrong with turning a diverse public school into a Christian church.

The only chaplaincy requirement I see that makes sense is a graduate degree in counseling (not theology), but there would be no need to call that person a chaplain. That person would just be a school counselor, and that position already exists.

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What I find phenomenal and encouraging is that in multiple situations, Christian lawmakers have tried to inject their religion into the school systems or government, and more and more, they're facing blowback. Whether that blowback is from The Satanic Temple or from Americans United or the FFRF, it doesn't matter. What matters is that their efforts are not going unchallenged, and in many cases, the challenges are succeeding.

This is no time to stop, nor do I think any of us would stop. LET'S KICK SOME ASS!!!

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I'm pretty sure we ended up with all the checks and balances that we did because the founders knew people were going to vote against control by some other faction as often or more often than they voted to promote some noble common good. So 'wrong reason'? Maybe...but it's a common one.

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It wouldn't surprise me if at least one of the 3 no votes was someone who was fully on board with excluding non-Christians, but realized that theology degree requirement would keep out 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘪𝘳 denomination. Although the ends do not justify the means, I am happy with making an exception for this.

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Quakers got mentioned in the OP, but I figured the speaker was using them as an illustrative example. Can't imagine there's many in Florida who are angling for these positions. Seems very much limited to the evangelical mindset.

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Watching Nat-Cs shit themselves and cry whenever the Satanists show up to play will never get old.

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No it never does, I could watch it on a loop.

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As an adult who has spent an inordinate amount of her life on dismantling the Christian lies forced on her in childhood, allow me to categorically state that the last thing any child needs in the US of A right now is Republicans pushing the MOAR JEBUS drug.

I had plenty of Jesus growing up. I had so much of it I couldn't really function as an adult. I went to church three times a week, minimum, no excuses. I got more of the Jesus at school, thanks to other kids trying to push it on me. To be completely clear: I left the Christian church because I knew it too well. I learned about the abuses of power and the lies it used to keep up that picture of domestic tranquility the membership never really seems to enjoy. I refuse to return for more of the same abuse.

Chaplains in schools won't fix a thing. Asking for volunteers isn't going to change that, and excluding specific groups won't, either. Lack of Jesus wasn't the problem when I was growing up, and it's not the problem now, either. As I see it, the actual problem is continuing to vote for politicians who insist on taking money away from public schools to give it to their little Christian friends.

Anyone who wants to fix the educational system instead of breaking it down need only change their voting habits.

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I had their fear and hatred figured out in 5th grade of kkkatlik gulag.

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A substack contributor you may wish to check out is Jim Palmer. I feel for your journey.

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TST really needs a 'mission accomplished' banner they can hang across their Baphomet carrier. It would get significant use.

𝐵𝑜𝑎𝑟𝑑 𝐶ℎ𝑎𝑖𝑟 𝐻𝑒𝑎𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝐾𝑎ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑛 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑 𝑠ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑢𝑝𝑝𝑜𝑟𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑒𝑙𝑎𝑦 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑠ℎ𝑒 𝑤𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑘 𝑚𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐹𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 “𝑓𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑙 𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑔𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑤𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑒𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑖𝑓 𝑤𝑒 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑣𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑎𝑠 𝑖𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑡𝑜𝑑𝑎𝑦.”

Oops, you just gave away the game, Heather. Since there would be no federal litigation if you let in non-Christian chaplains, you've basically told the audience the Board's intent is to only let in Christian chaplains.

[𝐵𝑜𝑎𝑟𝑑 𝑀𝑒𝑚𝑏𝑒𝑟 𝑅𝑎𝑚𝑠𝑒𝑦] 𝐵𝑢𝑡 ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒, 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛, 𝑎 𝑠𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑎𝑠𝑘 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑠𝑝𝑖𝑟𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑎𝑙 𝑔𝑢𝑖𝑑𝑎𝑛𝑐𝑒

The 1A already allows a student to ask school staff for spiritual guidance. Ask your math teacher. Ask your gym teacher. Chances are, they'll even be Christian! But then again, maybe they aren't. Or maybe they are but don't believe in proselytizing their own personal faith views. What the 1A doesn't allow is for a school to carve out special access to students for Christian chaplains.

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"The program is dead. The school board of Osceola County allied itself with the Satanic Temple in killing the program. "

Well, no, not really - all the TST folks talked about doing was joining the program, participating in it, Arguello. It's you guys - your allies, the folks who believe as you do - that killed the program because you couldn't get it just exactly the way you wanted it.

Nothing, absolutely nothing that the TST was planning would have in any way made it impossible, or even more difficult for your precious chaplains to get installed, and no doubt in far greater numbers and with vastly more reach than their TST counterparts. All that would have happened is that your hand-picked snowflakes would have had to deal with a little bit of competition. Just an alternate take on things, nothing scarier than that.

And that was enough for your side to get cold feet and bail.

What a mighty god is your god, and how beautiful and powerful his message.

. . .

I'm convinced Arguello is immune to irony only because he hasn't died of heavy-metal poisoning...

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I see that background checks are part of the legislation, which is a good thing as all adults who enter schools should be able to pass one. The problem though, because background checks only catch folks who have been caught before, first time offenders and those who haven’t been caught yet will slip through, so clergy are in a unique position for passing a background check while being known for molesting children by folks around them. They get to avoid criminal charges by their congregations overlooking their mistakes, by marrying their victims and just by being preachers and convincing the victims and their parents from reporting to authorities through church-member bullying and just by being a member of clergy (no one will believe you over a man of god).

So, there are no real, effective safeguards for student protection. Given that counseling sessions are private, there’s motivation for chaplains to take up the position as a means of access to children. There’s no mechanism to keep the honest men honest, and plenty of cover to allow the criminals to thrive.

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You're absolutely right. The difference between accredited social workers vs. church pastors is that the first comes from a community that requires mandatory reporting, the second comes from a community that traditionally doesn't report and where victims rarely press charges. So while there is no 100% guarantee in life that an accredited social worker won't be an undetected abuser, it is reasonable for an employer (i.e. school system) to judge the 'accredited professional social worker' pool to be a much lower risk than the 'church priest' pool. And even if they get nothing else, they get someone who must act as a mandatory reporter to preserve their license, rather than someone who may follow religious rules *against* reporting.

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You also get someone qualified to actually *help* the student. If they need spiritual advice, they can go to a church on their own time.

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Did you like the conservative two-step on that? First it was about free counselors. Sure, we can ask for qualifications! Sure, we can do background checks!

But now that that's failed, it's 'what if the kids want spiritual guidance?'

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Christians have repeatedly shown that they should NEVER be allowed to be alone with children.

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Or even with other people around. Wasn't there a case of a youth minister who raped or sexually abused a teen while they were in the room with other kids, teens and adults during a retreat ?

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I did a search engine to find that story. Came up blank. My search parameters were probably faulty. I saw one article about a the lawyer of pastor named Robert Morris (who sexually abused a 12-year-old girl named Cindy Clemishire). The lawyer, one J. Shelby Sharp, blamed HER. He said she was the one who started it, even though he/she knew of Morris' past track record. Unbefuckinglievable.

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VERY believable. When you exalt men and make them impervious to scrutiny you end up with this shit. The unbelievable bit is he actually got prosecuted.

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It was mentionned here, in a post or in the comments. Mais accroche-toi pour le retrouver...

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While I was searching, I saw a ton of articles about pastors abusing boys and girls. Where do these freaks ever find the time to actually do their jobs instead of raping kids non-stop?

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They think raping kids is their job.

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I remember that story, but not the details. And according to the fucking bible she should've been stoned since she didn't cry out.

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While this is changing in some areas, churches are still very powerful in most communities. The rising numbers of "nones" is diminishing that power somewhat but most remain formidable.

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Power to the Satanists. If Ronnie and the white Christian Nationalists think their indoctrination plan of having Chaplins counsel students let all groups do their thing. Chaplins” counsel” is dangerous and unconstitutional. As a retired school psychologist, I could not be more offended. Didn’t see any Chaplins participating in my years of training. Is Florida too cheap to get properly trained individuals to counsel students or is it religious indoctrination of the Christian religion for everyone?

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The answer to your question is yes. They are too cheap to pay highly trained professionals and they want to indoctrinate all the children into Christianity.

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Florida is improbably ranked #1 overall in Education. Watch that number crater if xtians get their talons into the state's public schoolchildren.

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These things take time to show up in stats.

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We won't get that ranking on the next evaluation.

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Yes they gutted our education system, ran teachers off, then old bobblehead said he'd just hire veterans instead. And are working on killing the academically superior colleges.

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Okay, I’ll ignore his gross, blatant hatred for transgender people and look at the claim of students asking for other types of counseling.

The reality is, all the students who would seek Christian counseling are already a part of a church, and most likely are very active in the church and know who within their church they can speak to, what times they are available, and how to seek their advice. If they are looking for religious guidance, their parents would be the best folks for the student to reach out to for who to go to or how to reach them. They would be able to guide them to what they want the children to believe.

The fact that there are 257 churches in the county and only 84 schools, means that there is not a need for chaplains to be in the schools. There are plenty of religious resources for the students to find, if that is their desire. The churches have advertisements and community events to draw in members, they do not need the schools or the state to do this work for them for free.

The school system isn’t there to give students religion. The schools aren’t there to provide medical care, but the counselors are there for supporting students while they navigate their mental health and medical needs, it is for acute responses not for replacing actual healthcare.

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I think Ron DeSantis' little fiefdom is falling apart. Yesterday he held a press conference denying he had anything to do with the plan to put hotels and pickleball courts in the state parks, which outraged most Floridians who appreciate the natural beauty of the state (that is quickly disappearing).

"I KNOW NOTHING!!", he shouted at the press.

Bye Ron.

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He said something along the lines of "if people don't want these improvements then we won't do them".

And I'm thinking, "Ron, the people just told you that they don't consider golf courses and resort hotels to be *improvements* in a State Park. Get a clue, Ron, get a clue."

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De Satan wouldn't recognize a clue if it ran up to him and bit his dick off.

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True, I'd pay to see that happen, though.

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🤣

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And Florida doesn’t ban books…ha ha. He thinks we are just plain stupid.

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He doesn't think you're stupid. He thinks passing the measure got him public approval and a photo op. He could care less what happens in the district after that.

Likewise, his future PR on this issue will likely be based on what sort of statement he thinks will get him a spot in Trump's administration or maybe what sort of statement helps set him up for a 2028 Presidential run. If he thinks appealing to the right wing will help him in those goals, he'll do a 'oh, horror, Satanists!'. If he thinks attacking the decision will hurt him in those causes, he will probably drop it down the memory hole and say nothing.

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Trump will never hire him. Or Trump would hire him and then fire him, just to embarrass DeSantis.

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I dunno, he hired never Trumper Vance and then made him eat crow. Seems in Trump's style to hire DeSantis and then make him do/say stuff he knows DeSantis would hate to do. And it seems in the style of the Vances and DeSantis' of the world to eat it up.

There is also scapegoat value. There's a fair amount of no-win situations right now. Put him in charge of the border and then yell at him publicly when immigration doesn't go down. Or put him in charge of finding peace between Israel and Hamas.

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Sadly, the abysmal stupidity of some of them overpower the voices of the rational ones.

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He bullied too many republicans, into giving massive bribes, for his failed presidential campaign. They aren't kissing his ass anymore.

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Any day Christers are told NO! when they want to groom public schoolchildren is a good day.

And if it came down to a choice between The Church of the Holy Pedophile and representatives of TST as chaplains? I'd go with TST every time. Wouldn't ever have to think twice about that choice.

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DeSantis and Moms for Liberty want to take books away *from* children. Drag Queens want to read books *to* children.

Now tell me again who's the threat to children.

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Reminds me, Lucien deserves a donation for his service to the community.

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Religion should not be in schools unless it’s taught as a mythology like Zeus. The TST has been protecting our rights for decades against this religious nonsense.

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Not just The Satanic Temple, either. The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Americans United, American Atheists, and the American Humanist Association, among many others, all have been fighting to maintain State / Church separation ... and we're WINNING.

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Completely agree.

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🎯❤️

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You don’t need religion to have morals. If you can’t determine right from wrong you lack empathy, not religion.

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Christians taking their ball and going home when Satanists want to get in on the action. Once again, we see that YHVH is no match for his counterpart.

Ave Satanas!

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Can't go wrong with Carlos & Co.

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Did we ever figure out who it was that "Carlos lived next door" to?

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With rhythm like that it is impossible not to move with the music.

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Exactamundo!!!

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That's been obvious since he had to cheat to win the bet in Job.

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𝐼 𝑙𝑜𝑣𝑒 𝑖𝑡 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑎 𝑝𝑙𝑎𝑛 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑠 𝑡𝑜𝑔𝑒𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟!

-- Col. John "Hannibal" Smith

Who woulda thunk it? The Osceola Florida School board siding with The Satanic Temple! Seems as though there are more than a few people in the Sunshine State who actually care about State / Church separation! No, I don't think this is the end of this, nor do I think that Ron DeSantis can keep his yap shut about what's going on in Osceola County, but this is encouraging as all hell (arr-arr!), and I look forward to hearing followup on this story.

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Rhonda Santis is an Ivy League lawyer with a Gestapo mentality.

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I received a fund-raising e-mail the other day that made a salient point: Florida isn't a red state, Florida is a gerrymandered state. There are literally millions of people in Florida who are appalled by this sort of action by their state legislature. Our main hope is that they'll outlive the old fogies who favor theocracy and eventually return the Sunshine State to the ranks of rationality.

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Ditto Ohio. We used to be very purple, a definite swing state, until the Republicans screwed with our congressional districts. We're trying to unscrew it now, but Governor DeWine is fighting us at every turn.

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Meanwhile, restoring schools and libraries across the state will take some doing over a period of time, perhaps even years. And nothing can buy back the time so many unlucky kids lost when their education was turned upside down, first by Covid and later by direct attacks from the DeSatan/theoMAGAt crowd.

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*Waves at you desperately*

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