Anyone who would take political advice from the clergy deserves every bad thing that happens to them as a result. The Christian right sees religion as the solution to all this country’s problems, without ever providing a single example to support their claims. The Bible-belt South has some of this country’s worst social metrics, but they dismiss things like that as the work-product of people who were not TRUE Christians. If Christianity is the solution, then why was the Civil Rights Act necessary?
Even if churches were subject to taxes, it seems to me that most of them would owe little to no income tax. Deductible expenses would likely be close to revenue. Property taxes would be something else.
And the megachurches are likely a different story but, hey, they are rich and I’ve no problem taxing the rich.
Let me be clear: I am very glad that the Johnson Amendment is out there. Evangelical and other churches that wish to insist on breaching their tax-exempt status deserve to face consequences for their unconstitutional actions. The problem is that THERE HAVE BEEN NO CONSEQUENCES. I cannot remember a time in the past 20 years when I have heard that the Johnson Amendment was actually exercised against a church that blatantly endorsed a candidate for office.
The reason is simple: the IRS office in charge of dealing with the Johnson Amendment has not been properly funded in DECADES. If there is no action, it is because there is no money to support the necessary action. Further, it is a safe bet that there will be none forthcoming during the Trump administration, as they have wanted to eliminate the JA practically since Trump took office.
So yes, I'm glad that this attempt failed. I just wish something could be done to put some teeth into that amendment.
Corruption at it's finest: elected officials defunding the one part of the government that actually *makes* money enforcing the law, because their major campaign donors are the biggest crooks not obeying those laws. Yet another reason for campaign finance reform. But we'll have to wait for a different SCOTUS for that...Roberts says money IS speech, don'cha know.
I’m afraid the corrupt SCOTUS situation will last my lifetime and then some if we don’t make some radical changes fast. We can start by replacing every corporatist Democrat in congress with young(er) progressives.
As an “older millennial” I’ve never experienced anything close to a “healthy middle class” life that my parents talked about. Capitalism on steroids is literally hell on earth when you are working 80 hr work weeks for corrupt CEO’s for little pay. Using the bathroom is a crime because time is money at these jobs. I wish I were exaggerating. This is why Gen Z is so cynical and has decided just not to participate at all. The majority of congress is out of step with reality.
Why do churches have a tax-exempt status to begin with? Doesn't Romans 13:6-7 tell believers to pay their taxes and why? I'd think they'd be the FIRST to pony up.
They have tax-exempt status because they are seen by the general public as a non-profit (I would like to see the balance sheets from the RCC and LDS) public good. The oldest Christian Fucking Privilege in the country.
I have said many times I really don't mind churches being tax-exempt, I just think they need to follow all the rules that other tax-exempt entities must, instead of being seen as non-profit charities by default.
"Why do churches have a tax-exempt status to begin with?"
Religious organisations in the UK are charities because "Advancement of religion" is counted as a charitable purpose. It is a thing that the National Secular Society has been trying to get abolished for a long time. I suspect that at least part of the reason it hasn't is that the "Church of England" is an established church with the King as the head of it.
Let’s hope the appeal takes several more years to work through, by then our government will have gone through a huge overhaul and clarify the laws across the board to ensure these types of issues never happen again. This hope is what is getting me through our current fascist hellscape. Let’s look to the right people to build us back once we tear down the evil regime.
A little bit fuzzy this morning. Maybe the coffee will fix it.
With this entire article shows is that the modern churches about power and money, money and power, and power and money and money and power.
Who said, “my kingdom is not of this world.“? Who said, “you cannot serve both God and mammon.”? No one important to modern, politicize, culture war Christianity.
That someone also said “stop screwing the kids or it’s millstones for you.” And yet…and yet…
This ones a professor who has written two books…
ON CHRISTIAN MORALITY IN MARRIAGE AND BUSINESS.
Seriously. And even better? The victim was one of his own kids!!!!! Inc’est si bon! Christian Morality!!!!!
A former Cedarville University finance professor whose writings promote a Christian ethic of marriage and sexuality was arrested Tuesday on eight sex-related felony charges involving one or more of his children.
The indictment, filed March 27 in Ohio’s Greene County Common Pleas Court, charges John Kent Tarwater with two counts of rape, three counts of sexual battery and three counts of gross sexual imposition.
There are too many churches out there whose association with the traditional ideals of Jesus is tenuous at best and flat-out nonexistent at worst. They are far more about "an eye for an eye" than they are about "love your neighbor as yourself." Then, too, as was observed the other day, they can't give [love] what they don't have.
I actually don't see the point in preachers endorsing politicians. Most congregants are already of the same mind, so chances are telling them to vote for a certain candidate is useless because they were already going to vote for the candidate anyway. There's more of a chance of turning people off to a certain candidate, especially people who may be questioning their church membership already.
Churches don't like the Johnson amendment because preachers don't like having less control over their congregation. It has nothing to do with religious persecution.
Well yes, that's often how it goes. You have to have an unfair or unconstitutional law applied to you before you can sue to say it's unfair. Thus the notion of "standing." No harm, generally no standing.
While there are exceptions (10 C posters in classrooms cough cough), those generally require some harm where "you can't unring the bell", i.e. where a future remedy can't really fix the harm done. But here, we're talking about money. That's easily reversible; if the IRS taxed you and a judge rules they shouldn't have, you just get your money back (with court costs possibly being covered too) and you're in the same basic position you started from.
Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's. Why are you all spending so much money, time, and energy trying to avoid that command? Hmm? Maybe because you all love filthy lucre more?
They sure love to fight having to give to Caesar while at the same time fight for their turn at Caesar’s trough. Our society works best as Rock Soup, not when we selfishly take but never give (I’m thinking of the story about the greedy kid getting sour bread rather than the sweet rolls the other children got, I can’t remember the name of that story).
Conservative religious organizations spend a lot of time in court demanding they be considered for tax money offered to the public, for religious private or charter schools, or playground repairs, or improvements to the water utilities in another state (iykyk), or even contracts to perform public services while also refusing to follow the laws about who they provide services to or how (Ark Encounter, adoption agencies, school counselors, etc.). But the very thought of paying a penny into the tax pot apparently gives them hives. “Oh no! We can’t pay taxes, we do charity. (Terms and conditions apply and only after we provide our clergy with mansions, expensive cars, clothes, writing utensils, and private jets.)”
Also Jesus’ words about how no man can serve two masters. That they must hate one and love the other or be devoted to one and despise the other. No serving both God AND money.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I don't understand why someone would be using an AI bot to put comments in Hemant's forum. Are they trying to trash it?
Forced? Really? They always had the option to render unto Caesar instead. And they got the added benefit of zero paperwork requirements.
It seems to me that the way to fix this is stop granting automatic 501c3 status to churches just because they are churches. If they want the Establishment Clause adjacent benefit of government subsidy through tax exemption, they need to follow ALL the rules for non-profits. If they want to use their pulpit outside of those rules, they need to pay the price of admission that John Q Public must pay.
😫 I am perpetually sick of evangelical xtians whining about being silenced. And they complain while one of their own, SecDef Pete Hegseth, gives us an update (sermon) about a war I don't want MY taxes supporting. After a sermon about our great, decisive Prez 🤢, and over-the-top lethality and killing and giving no quarter, SecDef of the US finishes with "in Jesus' name Amen." 🤬🤬🤬🤬
JFC!! There is not one xtian in the nation who cares that my freedom of religion got violated by that statement. Only their rights are important. But it's OK because they violate me in Jesus' name! Once they turned Christ upside-down for their own purposes, they no longer needed to pretend that my life has purpose and meaning.
Well, OK, but couldn't they just stop whining at me 24/7?! 😖
From Wikipedia: An unenforced law (also symbolic law, dead letter law) is a law which is formally in effect (de jure), but is usually (de facto) not penalized by a jurisdiction. .....usually ignored by law enforcement, ..... few or no practical consequences for breaking them. .....unenforced laws has been criticized for undermining the legal system in general, as such laws may be selectively enforced.
Although Trump tried to EO limits on the Johnson Amendment in his first term, the order was performative - the amendment wasn't being enforced. However, Trump knew he was taking a stand to continue the status quo, gaining religious zealots' support, while no Democratic President ever took a stand to enforce it, since its enactment in the 1950s. When does the left get some spine and speak out against the deference that we keep giving to religion??
Anyone who would take political advice from the clergy deserves every bad thing that happens to them as a result. The Christian right sees religion as the solution to all this country’s problems, without ever providing a single example to support their claims. The Bible-belt South has some of this country’s worst social metrics, but they dismiss things like that as the work-product of people who were not TRUE Christians. If Christianity is the solution, then why was the Civil Rights Act necessary?
Boarding in 10 minutes, I hope.
Even if churches were subject to taxes, it seems to me that most of them would owe little to no income tax. Deductible expenses would likely be close to revenue. Property taxes would be something else.
And the megachurches are likely a different story but, hey, they are rich and I’ve no problem taxing the rich.
Safe journey!
Have a good flight and a very pleasant time.
How long to get through security?
Enjoy your demon tube.
EEEEWWWWWW! Demon tube! 👿👿👿 🤣🤣🤣
Let me be clear: I am very glad that the Johnson Amendment is out there. Evangelical and other churches that wish to insist on breaching their tax-exempt status deserve to face consequences for their unconstitutional actions. The problem is that THERE HAVE BEEN NO CONSEQUENCES. I cannot remember a time in the past 20 years when I have heard that the Johnson Amendment was actually exercised against a church that blatantly endorsed a candidate for office.
The reason is simple: the IRS office in charge of dealing with the Johnson Amendment has not been properly funded in DECADES. If there is no action, it is because there is no money to support the necessary action. Further, it is a safe bet that there will be none forthcoming during the Trump administration, as they have wanted to eliminate the JA practically since Trump took office.
So yes, I'm glad that this attempt failed. I just wish something could be done to put some teeth into that amendment.
Corruption at it's finest: elected officials defunding the one part of the government that actually *makes* money enforcing the law, because their major campaign donors are the biggest crooks not obeying those laws. Yet another reason for campaign finance reform. But we'll have to wait for a different SCOTUS for that...Roberts says money IS speech, don'cha know.
I’m afraid the corrupt SCOTUS situation will last my lifetime and then some if we don’t make some radical changes fast. We can start by replacing every corporatist Democrat in congress with young(er) progressives.
As an “older millennial” I’ve never experienced anything close to a “healthy middle class” life that my parents talked about. Capitalism on steroids is literally hell on earth when you are working 80 hr work weeks for corrupt CEO’s for little pay. Using the bathroom is a crime because time is money at these jobs. I wish I were exaggerating. This is why Gen Z is so cynical and has decided just not to participate at all. The majority of congress is out of step with reality.
Religions have always been out of step with reality!🤨
https://youtu.be/TMHCw3RqulY
😂 exactly!
Why do churches have a tax-exempt status to begin with? Doesn't Romans 13:6-7 tell believers to pay their taxes and why? I'd think they'd be the FIRST to pony up.
If the preachers want to get involved in secular politics then they need to pay the price of admission . . . taxes.
No pay, no play.
They have tax-exempt status because they are seen by the general public as a non-profit (I would like to see the balance sheets from the RCC and LDS) public good. The oldest Christian Fucking Privilege in the country.
I have said many times I really don't mind churches being tax-exempt, I just think they need to follow all the rules that other tax-exempt entities must, instead of being seen as non-profit charities by default.
"Why do churches have a tax-exempt status to begin with?"
Religious organisations in the UK are charities because "Advancement of religion" is counted as a charitable purpose. It is a thing that the National Secular Society has been trying to get abolished for a long time. I suspect that at least part of the reason it hasn't is that the "Church of England" is an established church with the King as the head of it.
Pay taxes if you want to participate in the political process, otherwise fuck right off.
R'amen.
GOOD!
Tax the damn churches, I say.
Let’s hope the appeal takes several more years to work through, by then our government will have gone through a huge overhaul and clarify the laws across the board to ensure these types of issues never happen again. This hope is what is getting me through our current fascist hellscape. Let’s look to the right people to build us back once we tear down the evil regime.
I wish I shared your optimism.
Perhaps it’s more desperation than optimism.
A little bit fuzzy this morning. Maybe the coffee will fix it.
With this entire article shows is that the modern churches about power and money, money and power, and power and money and money and power.
Who said, “my kingdom is not of this world.“? Who said, “you cannot serve both God and mammon.”? No one important to modern, politicize, culture war Christianity.
That someone also said “stop screwing the kids or it’s millstones for you.” And yet…and yet…
This ones a professor who has written two books…
ON CHRISTIAN MORALITY IN MARRIAGE AND BUSINESS.
Seriously. And even better? The victim was one of his own kids!!!!! Inc’est si bon! Christian Morality!!!!!
A former Cedarville University finance professor whose writings promote a Christian ethic of marriage and sexuality was arrested Tuesday on eight sex-related felony charges involving one or more of his children.
The indictment, filed March 27 in Ohio’s Greene County Common Pleas Court, charges John Kent Tarwater with two counts of rape, three counts of sexual battery and three counts of gross sexual imposition.
There are too many churches out there whose association with the traditional ideals of Jesus is tenuous at best and flat-out nonexistent at worst. They are far more about "an eye for an eye" than they are about "love your neighbor as yourself." Then, too, as was observed the other day, they can't give [love] what they don't have.
Scary business.
Whenever churches start talking about love, I usually want to check my wallet to make sure it hasn’t been molested.
Depends on love of WHAT, exactly, and in what context.
I actually don't see the point in preachers endorsing politicians. Most congregants are already of the same mind, so chances are telling them to vote for a certain candidate is useless because they were already going to vote for the candidate anyway. There's more of a chance of turning people off to a certain candidate, especially people who may be questioning their church membership already.
Churches don't like the Johnson amendment because preachers don't like having less control over their congregation. It has nothing to do with religious persecution.
𝑀𝑖𝑐ℎ𝑎𝑒𝑙 𝐹𝑎𝑟𝑟𝑖𝑠, 𝑔𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑙 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑠𝑒𝑙 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑁𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙 𝑅𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝐵𝑟𝑜𝑎𝑑𝑐𝑎𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑠, 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑...𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑗𝑢𝑑𝑔𝑒’𝑠 𝑟𝑢𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑟𝑒𝑞𝑢𝑖𝑟𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑙𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑓𝑓𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑣𝑖𝑜𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑙𝑎𝑤 𝑡𝑜 𝑔𝑒𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑐𝑎𝑠𝑒 ℎ𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑑.
Well yes, that's often how it goes. You have to have an unfair or unconstitutional law applied to you before you can sue to say it's unfair. Thus the notion of "standing." No harm, generally no standing.
While there are exceptions (10 C posters in classrooms cough cough), those generally require some harm where "you can't unring the bell", i.e. where a future remedy can't really fix the harm done. But here, we're talking about money. That's easily reversible; if the IRS taxed you and a judge rules they shouldn't have, you just get your money back (with court costs possibly being covered too) and you're in the same basic position you started from.
And where, exactly is the harm? That they are not exempted from the rules everyone else has to follow? The persecution complex runs deep.
The harm would be the government taxing them when it shouldn't. But the judge is absolutely right - UNTIL that actually happens, they have no case.
It's the equivalent of "I'm suing because that policeman was carrying a gun. He could've shot me, you know!"
Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesar's. Why are you all spending so much money, time, and energy trying to avoid that command? Hmm? Maybe because you all love filthy lucre more?
They sure love to fight having to give to Caesar while at the same time fight for their turn at Caesar’s trough. Our society works best as Rock Soup, not when we selfishly take but never give (I’m thinking of the story about the greedy kid getting sour bread rather than the sweet rolls the other children got, I can’t remember the name of that story).
Conservative religious organizations spend a lot of time in court demanding they be considered for tax money offered to the public, for religious private or charter schools, or playground repairs, or improvements to the water utilities in another state (iykyk), or even contracts to perform public services while also refusing to follow the laws about who they provide services to or how (Ark Encounter, adoption agencies, school counselors, etc.). But the very thought of paying a penny into the tax pot apparently gives them hives. “Oh no! We can’t pay taxes, we do charity. (Terms and conditions apply and only after we provide our clergy with mansions, expensive cars, clothes, writing utensils, and private jets.)”
Oops, ranting. My point’s been made.
Also Jesus’ words about how no man can serve two masters. That they must hate one and love the other or be devoted to one and despise the other. No serving both God AND money.
But, over and over again they try to pull it off with the usual bad consequences.
They don't mind giving to Caesar. They just want to make sure they rules are rigged so that Caesar's cut of their grift is zero.
I see the AI slop bot is back
And repeating itself.
Who or what are you referring to?
@Boreal nails it, a little further down (I browse "Newest first").
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I don't understand why someone would be using an AI bot to put comments in Hemant's forum. Are they trying to trash it?
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑎𝑖𝑛𝑡 𝑎𝑟𝑔𝑢𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑐ℎ𝑢𝑟𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑠 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑐𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑜 501(𝑐)(3) 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑒 “𝑎𝑢𝑡𝑜𝑚𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑠𝑖𝑙𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑑” 𝑏𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡.
Forced? Really? They always had the option to render unto Caesar instead. And they got the added benefit of zero paperwork requirements.
It seems to me that the way to fix this is stop granting automatic 501c3 status to churches just because they are churches. If they want the Establishment Clause adjacent benefit of government subsidy through tax exemption, they need to follow ALL the rules for non-profits. If they want to use their pulpit outside of those rules, they need to pay the price of admission that John Q Public must pay.
Silenced? Xtians?
*giggle**snort**GUFFAW!*
https://i1.wp.com/leftycartoons.visionmule.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2018/08/silenced.png
Ahhhh, an oldie but a goodie. That guy is pretty mouthy for someone who has been "silenced!" 🤣
See, that's funny cuz it's true. :D
In an ideal world I agree with you. It would be a start at least.
Very early OT, but...
Wind up your radios. Dr. Demento (Barry Hansen) turns 85 today (damn, he just missed being born on April Fools' Day).
😫 I am perpetually sick of evangelical xtians whining about being silenced. And they complain while one of their own, SecDef Pete Hegseth, gives us an update (sermon) about a war I don't want MY taxes supporting. After a sermon about our great, decisive Prez 🤢, and over-the-top lethality and killing and giving no quarter, SecDef of the US finishes with "in Jesus' name Amen." 🤬🤬🤬🤬
JFC!! There is not one xtian in the nation who cares that my freedom of religion got violated by that statement. Only their rights are important. But it's OK because they violate me in Jesus' name! Once they turned Christ upside-down for their own purposes, they no longer needed to pretend that my life has purpose and meaning.
Well, OK, but couldn't they just stop whining at me 24/7?! 😖
From Wikipedia: An unenforced law (also symbolic law, dead letter law) is a law which is formally in effect (de jure), but is usually (de facto) not penalized by a jurisdiction. .....usually ignored by law enforcement, ..... few or no practical consequences for breaking them. .....unenforced laws has been criticized for undermining the legal system in general, as such laws may be selectively enforced.
Although Trump tried to EO limits on the Johnson Amendment in his first term, the order was performative - the amendment wasn't being enforced. However, Trump knew he was taking a stand to continue the status quo, gaining religious zealots' support, while no Democratic President ever took a stand to enforce it, since its enactment in the 1950s. When does the left get some spine and speak out against the deference that we keep giving to religion??