Two different surveys, one showing evangelicals gaining ground but just barely, while the other shows them losing ground but just barely. All while being the most organized and well funded. Look at their media and outreach empires. They do so much just to stay in place. Meanwhile, the nones are growing faster than any other demographic, when all we really have are facts.
This bodes well for the future. That so many will simply follow the facts that are quietly stated and rejecting the lies shouted from bullhorns is a positive trend. This is why they are so intent on theocracy, to be able to force the facts into hiding so that people stop seeing their lies for what they are.
That such a large majority remains religious in this day and age bodes well for the future? Who needs artificial intelligence when you have Jesus, Allah and good 'ol Yahweh to think for you?
This is a topic we've talked about before. Shoot, it's something that evangelicals have already commented on, while utterly failing to realize just WHY they're bleeding out.
The fact is that the word is out: religion is a LIE. That simple statement has grown enormous traction in the years since 9/11/2001, and it has grown even more potent with the increased popularity of the internet and the spreading of that message on social media. For perhaps the first time in its history, religion is playing defense, and it doesn't like that very much.
The real danger here as I see it is that, as people leave religion, what remains is more concentrated, more angry, and far more dangerous. Add that to the most recent decisions of the Supreme Court, and you have a mix that is volatile to the point where it resembles a social analog of nitroglycerin.
Which doesn't change the fact that we as atheists need to be public, need to be OUT, and need to stand for our values in the face of all that ... because the alternative is intolerable.
I feel it's pretty clear that the internet has a lot to do with where the switching lands. When I was a kid there were all sorts of opportunities for the friends of friends to invite teens to churches. It made for a great place to meet others for the purpose of expanding one's pool of people they know. Now, we can talk to people all over the world, no church necessary. Additionally, kids raised without a particular church or had been to several like me were ripe for looking at other churches. Now I think teens are more likely to weigh the options themselves before being drawn into a church simply because a friend was. It's no wonder Evangelicals want to keep their kids away from the internet.
Couldn't agree more. Sadly though there will still be the Kenneth Copelands (net worth $760 M) in this country still fleecing those willing to believe their nonsense.
I doubt it. I left the ministry once when I lived in California. I had to get a regular paying job like everyone else. Don't employers pay into a fund, or some kind of employment tax? IRS considers us self-employed, and so churches would not be responsible for us when we ceased working
I get that. Nothing wrong with that so long as your comfort doesn’t harm others. We all deserve the choice and freedom that we seek, not what is foisted upon us.
I am skeptical about these surveys, because a lot of people seem to assume that "unaffiliated" is the same as "no religion". I suspect that a lot of these unaffiliated people continue, at some level, to believe but just without the structure of an established church.
I was once asked to participate in a survey about religion, and one of the first questions was, "Do you believe in God?" When I asked the questioner which deity she was referring to, I was told, "I'll put that sown as a 'yes'", without bothering to determine whether I might be a member of a nonbiblical and possibly polytheistic faith. I hung up on the caller.
It's experiences like that which lead me to question all these polls and surveys since, whether by design or by omission. they tend to skew in favor of biblical religions in general and Christianity in particular. I suspect that if one of these surveys were done at a convention of atheists the results would still show a number of "believers" in the group.
What you say is true. At the same time, shaking free of establishment religion is in many cases a step along the way to not believing at all. Shaking free of the indoctrination is often a gradual process.
At the same time, I wonder how many people affiliated with a church/religion are actually atheist (even if they don’t regard themselves as such). Go along to get along is a powerful force.
And as we all know, 93% of all statistics cited on the internet are made up on the spot (unless there's a decimal point involved, in which case its 94.21%).
Dentists clever enough to realize that sugary gum helps keep them in business. Like the beef and pork industry is to doctors, hospitals and pharma: a golden goose.
There is a disturbing trend of people leaving the church. And it is all your fault. People need to know that their loving God will hate them and burn them forever if they don't choose to use their freewill exactly how He wants them to. And if they leave the church, where else are they going to hear this loving message of eternal damnation? The laundromat? Home depot? No. The church is the only place and people are leaving it. And it is all your fault.
But luckily you can do something about this. Just stop being so fabulous. Be boring. Be plain. If kids see a glamorous drag queen in 10 inch heels reading fun children stories at the local library of course they are going to leave the leave the church. But how about instead of the 10 inch heels, you were some comfortable flats. And maybe instead of reading a fun children's book, how about Ayn Rand. That way instead of learning about the fun of self-expression, they can leave about the evils of empathy. That will make them feel even more at home in church. So please, teh gays, just stop being so damned fabulous, before you get us all damned.
Hell is trying to get the change machine to take your bill so you can do your damn laundry. And damn has it gotten expensive. $10 for two loads when I had to use one on my road trip.
Since we can speculate about the reasons for the huge spike in Catholic flight, it would seem that the Southern Baptist Convention would have similar numbers for the same reasons.
I think the numbers are going down. Someone on only sky used to write about them regularly. There's a certain amount of infighting going on as well if I remember correctly. About what I don't really take enough of an interest to care – as long as they do it.
Check Captain Cassidy back on Only Sky. If I recall correctly, they are in big trouble also. They are down to 14 million from 17 million, and there baptism ratio (an important stat for them) is also way down, and their congregations are aging.
There is no group I would rather see fail, than the Southern Baptist Church. They have a 50+%share of the population. here in my neck of the backwoods. Catholic dominated cities like New Orleans and San Francisco are so much more fun!
I'd be interested to know the trends for other major religions like Islam and Hinduism. Not interested enough to look it up, but still interested. It's nice to see the decline, but the outsized influence is still problematic, how long do people think it will take for Christianity to *not* be a given in the US? I'm in my 40s and don't expect any major shifts in my lifetime.
I try to hasten that day by attacking the idea of Christianity as *a* religion every chance I get. It is many different religions. Let’s make that explicit.
When one church says God sanctifies gay marriage and another church says God sends gays to hell, those two churches cannot possibly be the same religion.
As a friend once said, it may be rather dim for a star but it's awfully close. I can take a few days without sun if it means it only gets into the 90s.
As the billionaire class becomes more billion-airy and the middle class sinks into poverty, I wonder if America will have a "French Revolution" of its own?
And instead of the Bastille, we'll storm the Supreme Court, which has saddled us with the preposterous notion that corporations are people, with all the same rights as citizens (but very few of the responsibilities).
We will see if it's followed by several years of chaos (with a new calendar), a 1st Empire (return to christian calendar), a 2nd Republic, a 2nd Empire...
"The unaffiliated number is growing". You watch. The shifty, crafty, wiley, christians will try to find a way to develop that group and make/call them christians so they can make money off of them. I used to think I would be a christian again some day but they have become TOO VILE for that to happen. And they are VILE whether they are in the USA or in Russia. But of course I am a non christian now due to the evidence/lack of evidence and the Holy Babble.
Well, I have come across Christians who assert that some people are Christian even if they don’t know it. I even had one guy tell me that some of the humans from millennia before Jesus lived were Christian. So you are right.
This article was recently used by our good friend Ben Shapiro as an “interesting study” on his podcast to insinuate that being Christian makes you successful.
With that in mind, even though the data in Hemant’s article is what we like to hear, I take the conclusions with a grain of salt. Burge isn’t doing studies, not academically sound studies anyway, he’s simply interpreting this data, with a bit more than a hint of agenda. He’s not discussing how the data was collected, what questions were asked or other important details. I think the article I mentioned is claiming that religion is a luxury for middle and upper class folks rather than the poor it’s supposed to be focused on, and Shapiro interpreted that article the way he wanted to understand it - more of a tool for success. Shapiro is also the one implying this was a fully academic study rather than an educated blog.
Shapiro is an asshat grifter - are we really surprised that he is manipulating the data to make it seem like a positive?
Burge is a social scientist, but also a pastor so there are definitely competing biases for him there. If nothing else, it is interesting to read these sorts of posts from a pastor and social scientist perspective.
When you weigh the nearly infinite number of things in which it is possible to have faith against non-existent objective evidence, what ever a person believes is almost certainly wrong as a matter of probability. In my view the only acceptable choice is no religion at all, otherwise people are merely trading old nonsense for new.
Two different surveys, one showing evangelicals gaining ground but just barely, while the other shows them losing ground but just barely. All while being the most organized and well funded. Look at their media and outreach empires. They do so much just to stay in place. Meanwhile, the nones are growing faster than any other demographic, when all we really have are facts.
This bodes well for the future. That so many will simply follow the facts that are quietly stated and rejecting the lies shouted from bullhorns is a positive trend. This is why they are so intent on theocracy, to be able to force the facts into hiding so that people stop seeing their lies for what they are.
"when all we really have are facts." WELL SAID!
That such a large majority remains religious in this day and age bodes well for the future? Who needs artificial intelligence when you have Jesus, Allah and good 'ol Yahweh to think for you?
No, that so many are leaving religion.
They are hemorrhaging money in order to keep from hemorrhaging members.
The only way to survive is to get rid of the old guard who are the root cause of the hemorrhage (assuming they'd admit to their mistakes), or die.
This is a topic we've talked about before. Shoot, it's something that evangelicals have already commented on, while utterly failing to realize just WHY they're bleeding out.
The fact is that the word is out: religion is a LIE. That simple statement has grown enormous traction in the years since 9/11/2001, and it has grown even more potent with the increased popularity of the internet and the spreading of that message on social media. For perhaps the first time in its history, religion is playing defense, and it doesn't like that very much.
The real danger here as I see it is that, as people leave religion, what remains is more concentrated, more angry, and far more dangerous. Add that to the most recent decisions of the Supreme Court, and you have a mix that is volatile to the point where it resembles a social analog of nitroglycerin.
Which doesn't change the fact that we as atheists need to be public, need to be OUT, and need to stand for our values in the face of all that ... because the alternative is intolerable.
I feel it's pretty clear that the internet has a lot to do with where the switching lands. When I was a kid there were all sorts of opportunities for the friends of friends to invite teens to churches. It made for a great place to meet others for the purpose of expanding one's pool of people they know. Now, we can talk to people all over the world, no church necessary. Additionally, kids raised without a particular church or had been to several like me were ripe for looking at other churches. Now I think teens are more likely to weigh the options themselves before being drawn into a church simply because a friend was. It's no wonder Evangelicals want to keep their kids away from the internet.
As religion becomes increasingly hateful and regressive, sane and compassionate people will want less and less to do with it.
Couldn't agree more. Sadly though there will still be the Kenneth Copelands (net worth $760 M) in this country still fleecing those willing to believe their nonsense.
One thing that Atheists are not so good at is breeding.
Maybe we'd all be better off just scrapping religion altogether. It would save a great deal of time and effort in trying to prop it up.
You're just trying to increase the unemployment numbers.
(Actually, I don't know if ministers can collect unemployment. Can they actually be said to be out of "work"? Anyone know?)
I doubt it. I left the ministry once when I lived in California. I had to get a regular paying job like everyone else. Don't employers pay into a fund, or some kind of employment tax? IRS considers us self-employed, and so churches would not be responsible for us when we ceased working
Self-employed people (incl. writers like myself) can pay into Social Security, but it's voluntary.
Religion gives me comfort. What's wrong with that? (TM)
Let me count the ways. 2000 years worth.
And that's just Christian history. Religion has been a horror for humanity, from the first ritual human sacrifice to the latest child suicide bomber.
Alluh Akbar!
I get that. Nothing wrong with that so long as your comfort doesn’t harm others. We all deserve the choice and freedom that we seek, not what is foisted upon us.
Just so you know, XJC was engaging in sarcasm. :)
As I continued reading I figured that out! I probably would have known if I knew what (TM) stood for. I’m slow sometimes.
You see it most often as this ™
I once explained how to use the emoji picker to get to it, but you know what they say about the terminally aged and new tricks.
Hey! ;)
I don't, I am too young. Can you elaborate ?
(TM) = Trademark.
I wonder if his XJC nym is another way of saying "Ex-Jesus Christ."
Fortuitous but unintentional.
Maybe he drives a Jaguar?
Which would be sad, because JC is the only thing worth keeping.
Trademark (TM). Unlike God, this is real.
I am skeptical about these surveys, because a lot of people seem to assume that "unaffiliated" is the same as "no religion". I suspect that a lot of these unaffiliated people continue, at some level, to believe but just without the structure of an established church.
I was once asked to participate in a survey about religion, and one of the first questions was, "Do you believe in God?" When I asked the questioner which deity she was referring to, I was told, "I'll put that sown as a 'yes'", without bothering to determine whether I might be a member of a nonbiblical and possibly polytheistic faith. I hung up on the caller.
It's experiences like that which lead me to question all these polls and surveys since, whether by design or by omission. they tend to skew in favor of biblical religions in general and Christianity in particular. I suspect that if one of these surveys were done at a convention of atheists the results would still show a number of "believers" in the group.
What you say is true. At the same time, shaking free of establishment religion is in many cases a step along the way to not believing at all. Shaking free of the indoctrination is often a gradual process.
At the same time, I wonder how many people affiliated with a church/religion are actually atheist (even if they don’t regard themselves as such). Go along to get along is a powerful force.
Like the polls that show 91% of Democrats favor the incumbent, and 9% don't. Who are those 9%??!
And as we all know, 93% of all statistics cited on the internet are made up on the spot (unless there's a decimal point involved, in which case its 94.21%).
https://authoradamgainer.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/do-not-believe-abraham-lincoln.jpg
Who are the 1 out of five dentists who don't recommend sugarless gum?
I thought they settled that a couple of decades ago. The one that got bit in the nuts by a squirrel.
Dentists clever enough to realize that sugary gum helps keep them in business. Like the beef and pork industry is to doctors, hospitals and pharma: a golden goose.
Dear LBGTQ+ community,
There is a disturbing trend of people leaving the church. And it is all your fault. People need to know that their loving God will hate them and burn them forever if they don't choose to use their freewill exactly how He wants them to. And if they leave the church, where else are they going to hear this loving message of eternal damnation? The laundromat? Home depot? No. The church is the only place and people are leaving it. And it is all your fault.
But luckily you can do something about this. Just stop being so fabulous. Be boring. Be plain. If kids see a glamorous drag queen in 10 inch heels reading fun children stories at the local library of course they are going to leave the leave the church. But how about instead of the 10 inch heels, you were some comfortable flats. And maybe instead of reading a fun children's book, how about Ayn Rand. That way instead of learning about the fun of self-expression, they can leave about the evils of empathy. That will make them feel even more at home in church. So please, teh gays, just stop being so damned fabulous, before you get us all damned.
Your brother in Christ,
Holytape
If you're at the laundromat you're already in hell.
Hell is trying to get the change machine to take your bill so you can do your damn laundry. And damn has it gotten expensive. $10 for two loads when I had to use one on my road trip.
The "Home Depot" that you mentioned is it's own special kind of hell. It''s a CULT!
HERESY IS FUN https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/358034768_1452666582186366_8240027609759463916_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p843x403&_nc_cat=106&cb=99be929b-59f725be&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=V1uMWIPUSHQAX_r-KdT&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfDrl8HMqRurZ4Bm8bV4OJ8lHWBvE4kw-qRbU1KLfhm3Hw&oe=64A944E7
𝐴𝑙𝑙 𝑛𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑠 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 ℎ𝑎𝑡, 𝐵𝑒𝑛. 𝑀𝑎𝑛 𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑜 𝑏𝑢𝑖𝑙𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑖𝑚𝑎𝑔𝑖𝑛𝑒 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑜𝑤𝑛 𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑡ℎ. 𝑇ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑑𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑖𝑛𝑣𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑜𝑓 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠.
-- Robert A. Heinlein, S̲t̲r̲a̲n̲g̲e̲r̲ ̲i̲n̲ ̲a̲ ̲S̲t̲r̲a̲n̲g̲e̲ ̲L̲a̲n̲d̲
I grok.
Share water. Never thirst.
Thou art God.
Needs salt.
What doesn't? (My cardiologist hates me)
Everyone is a heretic
Hmm. There are no numbers for the SBC.
Since we can speculate about the reasons for the huge spike in Catholic flight, it would seem that the Southern Baptist Convention would have similar numbers for the same reasons.
I think the numbers are going down. Someone on only sky used to write about them regularly. There's a certain amount of infighting going on as well if I remember correctly. About what I don't really take enough of an interest to care – as long as they do it.
I think SBC falls under Evangelical Protestants.
I know they are the largest evangelical group, but they are so huge that they may encompass other non-evangelical sects.
Check Captain Cassidy back on Only Sky. If I recall correctly, they are in big trouble also. They are down to 14 million from 17 million, and there baptism ratio (an important stat for them) is also way down, and their congregations are aging.
There is no group I would rather see fail, than the Southern Baptist Church. They have a 50+%share of the population. here in my neck of the backwoods. Catholic dominated cities like New Orleans and San Francisco are so much more fun!
SBC in Dutch? Gee, that's too bad. *winkwink*
I'd be interested to know the trends for other major religions like Islam and Hinduism. Not interested enough to look it up, but still interested. It's nice to see the decline, but the outsized influence is still problematic, how long do people think it will take for Christianity to *not* be a given in the US? I'm in my 40s and don't expect any major shifts in my lifetime.
I try to hasten that day by attacking the idea of Christianity as *a* religion every chance I get. It is many different religions. Let’s make that explicit.
When one church says God sanctifies gay marriage and another church says God sends gays to hell, those two churches cannot possibly be the same religion.
Their God suffers from multiple personalities, why shouldn't Their followers?
They should. But let’s at least point that out.
Off-topic, obviously, but to all who celebrate, have a great 4th of July!
Back atcha!
That was yesterday. :)
Go, what it is, 200 miles, East and it's today.
The sun'll come out tomorrow. Bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow we'll have sun. Or so it is alleged. I'm not sure I buy it.
As a friend once said, it may be rather dim for a star but it's awfully close. I can take a few days without sun if it means it only gets into the 90s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnbmCj-0QU So there!
Couldn't find a link to the *real* Annie? (1982)
Did you mean 14th ? It's a little early to celebrate.
As the billionaire class becomes more billion-airy and the middle class sinks into poverty, I wonder if America will have a "French Revolution" of its own?
And instead of the Bastille, we'll storm the Supreme Court, which has saddled us with the preposterous notion that corporations are people, with all the same rights as citizens (but very few of the responsibilities).
We will see if it's followed by several years of chaos (with a new calendar), a 1st Empire (return to christian calendar), a 2nd Republic, a 2nd Empire...
Hey it's not our fault you were 10 days late to the party. :)
You were the ones who sent the invitations.
That'll teach you to check your e-mail. :)
Hey! It takes time to row a dinghy across the Atlantic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_rowing
'murica: Land of Religious Free-dum. Hooray!
Plugging holes may be a reason they are leaking members.
"The unaffiliated number is growing". You watch. The shifty, crafty, wiley, christians will try to find a way to develop that group and make/call them christians so they can make money off of them. I used to think I would be a christian again some day but they have become TOO VILE for that to happen. And they are VILE whether they are in the USA or in Russia. But of course I am a non christian now due to the evidence/lack of evidence and the Holy Babble.
Well, I have come across Christians who assert that some people are Christian even if they don’t know it. I even had one guy tell me that some of the humans from millennia before Jesus lived were Christian. So you are right.
Have you explored Islam yet? A whole world of hate and retribution awaits. Alluh Akbar!
That's before you get to fuck the "72 virgins" (who have never lost their virginity despite having been fucked by every suicide bomber) in heaven.
What Islam doesn't teach about those 72 virgins...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNxKdb8DWm0
Sounds pretty good to me. We'd have more than sex in common. They also like crack-on-a-card.
Alluh Crack-bar!
Here’s another article by Burge from the same data source.
https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/religion-has-become-a-luxury-good
This article was recently used by our good friend Ben Shapiro as an “interesting study” on his podcast to insinuate that being Christian makes you successful.
With that in mind, even though the data in Hemant’s article is what we like to hear, I take the conclusions with a grain of salt. Burge isn’t doing studies, not academically sound studies anyway, he’s simply interpreting this data, with a bit more than a hint of agenda. He’s not discussing how the data was collected, what questions were asked or other important details. I think the article I mentioned is claiming that religion is a luxury for middle and upper class folks rather than the poor it’s supposed to be focused on, and Shapiro interpreted that article the way he wanted to understand it - more of a tool for success. Shapiro is also the one implying this was a fully academic study rather than an educated blog.
Shapiro is an asshat grifter - are we really surprised that he is manipulating the data to make it seem like a positive?
Burge is a social scientist, but also a pastor so there are definitely competing biases for him there. If nothing else, it is interesting to read these sorts of posts from a pastor and social scientist perspective.
Shapiro is an enlightened Jew making some easy money. Nothing to see, move along.
Enlightened … how?
Does he eat light bulbs ?
That’s too rational.
Blame DM and the secular and science based education she wanted for me.
He knows a grift when he sees one. Light bulb is "on."
When you weigh the nearly infinite number of things in which it is possible to have faith against non-existent objective evidence, what ever a person believes is almost certainly wrong as a matter of probability. In my view the only acceptable choice is no religion at all, otherwise people are merely trading old nonsense for new.
In other words, 'you can't explain the obvious to people who need the obvious explained?'
No, you cannot.
There's also THIS:
𝐼𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑑𝑖𝑓𝑓𝑖𝑐𝑢𝑙𝑡 𝑡𝑜 𝑔𝑒𝑡 𝑎 𝑚𝑎𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑠𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔, 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑎𝑙𝑎𝑟𝑦 𝑑𝑒𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑠 𝑜𝑛 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑡.
-- Upton Sinclair
Unrestrained capitalism and no social safety net. It's the American Way.
The cross in the photo looks like it is on public land. It should come down.