I was once – for various reasons – attached to a unit that taught kids with disabilities. Mostly Downs syndrome, but some others, one of which was not only pretty much incapable of speech – maybe even thought – but was also blind pretty much. I asked the person in charge what we were doing for this guy, and they said giving him stimulus to help him achieve his potential. Which was fair enough except of course the potential was very, very limited. So we gave him different things to touch and to listen to – occasionally brought a smile to his face. But that's what we did along with giving the parents a bit of a rest.
And I never saw anyone hit one of the kids at all. Sometimes you had to restrain them when they lost their temper, and they were often really strong. But I was there for whole year and not one of them was ever hit. Some of them I would maintain would be incapable of connecting the hit to the behaviour. Not many but some. It's the crudest form of behaviour modification I can think of.
I was hit when I was a kid, (it was the 50s after all) although my dad was pretty much sparing of the rod. I was – two or three times a year perhaps – caned at school. And contrary to people who say "it never did me any harm", it never did me any damn good. Except to learn how to avoid it and that wasn't necessarily by being good.
Sadly, it's very common for abused kids to defend their parents' abusiveness even long after they grow up. The bigger tragedy is that they end up abusing their own kids.
"Should" is one of the most pointless words in the English language. Of course their superstitions "shouldn't" be permitted to influence our laws! But in reality, Christian fascists are gaining absolute control in many states.
Yes, religion certainly is gaining influence and control in many states and unless the citizens there speak up & become active to prevent it, it will continue. The country is heading to theocracy and those of us from away are powerless to prevent it so I’m not sure just how to rephrase my comment but hopefully some get my point & get involved.
My wife taught special needs kids for decades. There can arise situations in which you have to physically restrain a child before he/she harms either himself or others. But, it must be done in a humane manner and limited in duration to avoid hurting the child. The Bible should not be used to determine public policy.
I usually try to avoid these discussions since I don't have kids. I kinda feel the need to make a few points here, so hang in there with me for a moment.
I have been told by people who should know that for some kids, there is no other way than spanking. I have grave concerns about that, since it's hard to know what's been tried, what the actual issue might be, and how the person telling me this got that information. I have always personally felt like I wouldn't make a good parent because I remember how I got spanked as a child and I'm not entirely certain how that's really worked out. (I like to think it hasn't been that bad, but I'm a bit close to it.) I don't like the idea some people seem to have where spanking is the go-to. I don't think spanking is really appropriate in the majority of cases, and certainly not when a child has a developmental disability. I question the wisdom of allowing teachers or administrators to perform such a punishment on students in their care.
I do, however, recognize that children are individuals and there is no licensing system for parenthood. I also wonder why this 'religion of love' always seems to be in such a rush to hurt people for one reason or another, be it spanking kids or toting guns to the war zone. I find it worrying that these lawmakers who appear to be adults seem to think spanking kids needs to happen more often rather than less. It just seems like an excuse to bully kids at some point. At what point do we acknowledge the sheer irony of an adult spanking a child while claiming 'we don't hit'?
I see it this way: If we want our kids to value something, like compassion or love, we as adults need to learn to value it first. Spanking doesn't teach the value of peace or love, it teaches the value of violence so far as I can tell. I don't know if there's a right answer here, but there really do seem to be quite a few wrong ones.
You were a child once. That makes you qualified to have an opinion. Golden rule applies to childrearing - treat your child how you wish to be treated. There are so many adults who are the product of what is abuse by people who they loved and trusted. These people have issues with trust, unresolved anger, shame, guilt and poor self image.
In American Christian history, the abuse is amazing. Children were tied to a bedpost during the day while their parents worked their farm. Kids were beaten with straps and belts, their hands blistered on hot stovetops. Food was withheld. All because the child "sinned" - Thou Shalt Honor Thy Mother and Father. This extended to schoolteachers. I remember in the late 1950s my older sister attended kindergarten and first grade in Catholic school. Kids were force-fed if they didn't eat their lunch, and for misbehaving in class, their hands were struck with a ruler.
let's call it what it is...BEATING. It is just another form of violence. You beat the living daylights out of a child don't be surprised when they are also violent. IF all a parent or a teacher can come up with is to grab a whip or a belt and beat a small defenseless child then they need to rethink their lives and or profession Honestly I could never figure out..if you beat a child it is praised..if you beat an adult it is a criminal offense..?
There are tons of research reports that conclude that violence does not work if you want to raise or educate children. /But, of course, the bibles is the answer. /s
Using corporal punishment is a failure of the adults using it to maintain composure, it is not a failure of the child who is trying to learn to control themselves.
If you need to have a looming threat of violence as a classroom management tool, you’ve already failed managing your classroom. As Hemant says, you should not be near a classroom. And if you choose to be a special education teacher with the idea that physical violence is the key to earning respect, you are a horrible person. Children with disabilities and special needs will be even more confused by being beaten , but not surprised. The children that I’ve come across while helping my autistic child grow up have plenty of horror stories of being bullied physically by other students and then blamed for the violent interaction and bullied physically again by teachers and staff.
Children with disabilities are people who may just need more understanding and patience, not less. And children in general are human beings deserving of the same protections against violence than any adult human.
I’m guessing these folks are pro life too. I swear pro-lifers really only want children born so that they have targets weak enough to abuse and murder with their guns.
"he said teachers need the threat of corporal punishment to maintain classroom order"
I would guess a lot of states and countries with less disciplinary problems in their schools would care to disagree.
Look I get that sometimes there may be an absolutely unruly kid. Someone who just will not listen to you. And I get that a degree in teaching math, english, history etc. doesn't especially train you to deal with that. But you stop them from disrupting class by sending them to the counselor...whose degree DOES train them to deal with that. Well assuming the counselor isn't also a fundie christian. If that's the case, I guess you're all (including the kid) SOL.
How? How about: Why should we even CONSIDER scriptures? Whether you want to acknowledge it or not (and we all know you don't), this is a SECULAR government, which recognizes all religion, but favors NONE OF THEM. Why? Because to favor one or another would be to disadvantage the others, and no, that is NOT equitable. This doesn't even mention the fact that corporal punishment has long since been generally deemed to be INEFFECTIVE and in fact, works against reorientation of problem students.
Yeah, yeah, I know; this is Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plain and spanking kids is up there with baseball, hot dogs and apple pie. Maybe we should let them secede... 😔
The United States of America is not in any way shape or form a Christian nation. We have a secular government with a secular constitution, and we had better start define it that way!
Delusional theists need to take your biblical, whatever, and put it where the sun don’t shine.
There is no horror that cannot be, and has not been, justified in the name of religion. Corporal punishment should be illegal for ALL students. The state cannot grant itself permission to commit assault against a minor because they think a magic book justifies it. The Christo-fascist right sickens me.
What beating a child teaches them is that violence is a good way to solve your problems. That it's OK to bully people who are smaller and weaker than you are. And also that they should work harder at not getting caught. None of these things are things I want children learning in school.
I wonder if this legislator was a playground bully as a child?
The only thing that surprises me about this is the child "psychologist" who can't think of a better way of keeping order in a classroom than threatening to hit a child.
I am not one who thinks spanking is inherently evil. I think there are much better ways of behavior modification and that those should be taught in high school parenting classes and reinforced during prenatal parenting classes.
I think many parents spank because that is how they were raised and they don't know other techniques. The only examples they know of of children who weren't spanked are the ones who never received any kind of disciple and run wild.
Parenthood is tough. You fight a lot of battles with yourself to not give in and take the easy way out of some situation. After all, this little kid will believe anything you say and you could browbeat them into doing just about anything, if you chose to. It is trivial to do to them what you could never get away with when dealing with another adult. It's a horrific thought. But probably one that occurs to every parent, on occasion. Why not just scream. Or shake. Or slap. It would be so easy. And it would just be this one time. It's their fault! They made me do it.
But taking the right way doesn't require any special training. No degree. Any adult who has navigated their way through adult society without being regularly thrown in jail *knows how* to deal with upset or obstinant people nonviolently. They already have that toolkit. They use it practically every minute of every day, with every person who is not their kid. And little kids are, if anything, easier. Sure they lose it a lot more often, but OTOH when they lose it, 99% of the time it's due to needing food or rest. With adults, the cause of the bad behavior can be far less easily fixed.
So I have very little sympathy and little desire to excuse an adult who opts to use violence or even verbal abuse against a kid. That's a failure of will, a failure of choice. Not a failure of training.
It's not the same toolkit. With adults exhibiting anti-social behavior it's not your job to correct their behavior and you can walk away. Not so when it's your child.
And from what I've seen most parents use the way they were raised as a guide (granted some take it as an example of what *not* to do), so if you want to change things, then yes training in methodologies of behavior modification that don't involve corporal punishment is necessary, because just deciding not to spank doesn't give you the tools to discipline someone and children don't thrive without limits and knowing there are consequences for exceeding those limits.
The bible gives lots of instructions on causing bodily harm to children:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
What the actual f$@k?
Really, about the only comment necessary!
I was raised by evangelical missionaries and I have had that thought above since I was able to understand cause and effect.
I was once – for various reasons – attached to a unit that taught kids with disabilities. Mostly Downs syndrome, but some others, one of which was not only pretty much incapable of speech – maybe even thought – but was also blind pretty much. I asked the person in charge what we were doing for this guy, and they said giving him stimulus to help him achieve his potential. Which was fair enough except of course the potential was very, very limited. So we gave him different things to touch and to listen to – occasionally brought a smile to his face. But that's what we did along with giving the parents a bit of a rest.
And I never saw anyone hit one of the kids at all. Sometimes you had to restrain them when they lost their temper, and they were often really strong. But I was there for whole year and not one of them was ever hit. Some of them I would maintain would be incapable of connecting the hit to the behaviour. Not many but some. It's the crudest form of behaviour modification I can think of.
I was hit when I was a kid, (it was the 50s after all) although my dad was pretty much sparing of the rod. I was – two or three times a year perhaps – caned at school. And contrary to people who say "it never did me any harm", it never did me any damn good. Except to learn how to avoid it and that wasn't necessarily by being good.
"It never did me any harm" is a typical Stockholm syndrom reply.
Sadly, it's very common for abused kids to defend their parents' abusiveness even long after they grow up. The bigger tragedy is that they end up abusing their own kids.
I was spanked and that taught me to lie.
A child psychiatrist who recommends corporal punishment should have his license revoked and forbidden to obtain it in another state.
Do. Not. Iron. While. Praying. *yourresultsmayvary
I don't iron my clothes 😁
I thank cotton T-shirts and hiking pants.
Religion poisons everything!! Their superstition should NEVER be permitted to define or influence laws.
"Should" is one of the most pointless words in the English language. Of course their superstitions "shouldn't" be permitted to influence our laws! But in reality, Christian fascists are gaining absolute control in many states.
Yes, religion certainly is gaining influence and control in many states and unless the citizens there speak up & become active to prevent it, it will continue. The country is heading to theocracy and those of us from away are powerless to prevent it so I’m not sure just how to rephrase my comment but hopefully some get my point & get involved.
My wife taught special needs kids for decades. There can arise situations in which you have to physically restrain a child before he/she harms either himself or others. But, it must be done in a humane manner and limited in duration to avoid hurting the child. The Bible should not be used to determine public policy.
There's a world of difference between restraining someone and hitting someone.
Unless you're a cop and the someone is guilty of being black in America.
I usually try to avoid these discussions since I don't have kids. I kinda feel the need to make a few points here, so hang in there with me for a moment.
I have been told by people who should know that for some kids, there is no other way than spanking. I have grave concerns about that, since it's hard to know what's been tried, what the actual issue might be, and how the person telling me this got that information. I have always personally felt like I wouldn't make a good parent because I remember how I got spanked as a child and I'm not entirely certain how that's really worked out. (I like to think it hasn't been that bad, but I'm a bit close to it.) I don't like the idea some people seem to have where spanking is the go-to. I don't think spanking is really appropriate in the majority of cases, and certainly not when a child has a developmental disability. I question the wisdom of allowing teachers or administrators to perform such a punishment on students in their care.
I do, however, recognize that children are individuals and there is no licensing system for parenthood. I also wonder why this 'religion of love' always seems to be in such a rush to hurt people for one reason or another, be it spanking kids or toting guns to the war zone. I find it worrying that these lawmakers who appear to be adults seem to think spanking kids needs to happen more often rather than less. It just seems like an excuse to bully kids at some point. At what point do we acknowledge the sheer irony of an adult spanking a child while claiming 'we don't hit'?
I see it this way: If we want our kids to value something, like compassion or love, we as adults need to learn to value it first. Spanking doesn't teach the value of peace or love, it teaches the value of violence so far as I can tell. I don't know if there's a right answer here, but there really do seem to be quite a few wrong ones.
You were a child once. That makes you qualified to have an opinion. Golden rule applies to childrearing - treat your child how you wish to be treated. There are so many adults who are the product of what is abuse by people who they loved and trusted. These people have issues with trust, unresolved anger, shame, guilt and poor self image.
In American Christian history, the abuse is amazing. Children were tied to a bedpost during the day while their parents worked their farm. Kids were beaten with straps and belts, their hands blistered on hot stovetops. Food was withheld. All because the child "sinned" - Thou Shalt Honor Thy Mother and Father. This extended to schoolteachers. I remember in the late 1950s my older sister attended kindergarten and first grade in Catholic school. Kids were force-fed if they didn't eat their lunch, and for misbehaving in class, their hands were struck with a ruler.
let's call it what it is...BEATING. It is just another form of violence. You beat the living daylights out of a child don't be surprised when they are also violent. IF all a parent or a teacher can come up with is to grab a whip or a belt and beat a small defenseless child then they need to rethink their lives and or profession Honestly I could never figure out..if you beat a child it is praised..if you beat an adult it is a criminal offense..?
There are tons of research reports that conclude that violence does not work if you want to raise or educate children. /But, of course, the bibles is the answer. /s
Using corporal punishment is a failure of the adults using it to maintain composure, it is not a failure of the child who is trying to learn to control themselves.
If you need to have a looming threat of violence as a classroom management tool, you’ve already failed managing your classroom. As Hemant says, you should not be near a classroom. And if you choose to be a special education teacher with the idea that physical violence is the key to earning respect, you are a horrible person. Children with disabilities and special needs will be even more confused by being beaten , but not surprised. The children that I’ve come across while helping my autistic child grow up have plenty of horror stories of being bullied physically by other students and then blamed for the violent interaction and bullied physically again by teachers and staff.
Children with disabilities are people who may just need more understanding and patience, not less. And children in general are human beings deserving of the same protections against violence than any adult human.
I’m guessing these folks are pro life too. I swear pro-lifers really only want children born so that they have targets weak enough to abuse and murder with their guns.
"he said teachers need the threat of corporal punishment to maintain classroom order"
I would guess a lot of states and countries with less disciplinary problems in their schools would care to disagree.
Look I get that sometimes there may be an absolutely unruly kid. Someone who just will not listen to you. And I get that a degree in teaching math, english, history etc. doesn't especially train you to deal with that. But you stop them from disrupting class by sending them to the counselor...whose degree DOES train them to deal with that. Well assuming the counselor isn't also a fundie christian. If that's the case, I guess you're all (including the kid) SOL.
If you have to resort to violence, you've already lost control of the class.
𝑆𝑜 ℎ𝑜𝑤 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑏𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑐𝑟𝑖𝑝𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑒𝑠…?
How? How about: Why should we even CONSIDER scriptures? Whether you want to acknowledge it or not (and we all know you don't), this is a SECULAR government, which recognizes all religion, but favors NONE OF THEM. Why? Because to favor one or another would be to disadvantage the others, and no, that is NOT equitable. This doesn't even mention the fact that corporal punishment has long since been generally deemed to be INEFFECTIVE and in fact, works against reorientation of problem students.
Yeah, yeah, I know; this is Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plain and spanking kids is up there with baseball, hot dogs and apple pie. Maybe we should let them secede... 😔
Oklahoma where the wind comes sweeping past the brain in one ear and out the other.
The United States of America is not in any way shape or form a Christian nation. We have a secular government with a secular constitution, and we had better start define it that way!
Delusional theists need to take your biblical, whatever, and put it where the sun don’t shine.
There is no horror that cannot be, and has not been, justified in the name of religion. Corporal punishment should be illegal for ALL students. The state cannot grant itself permission to commit assault against a minor because they think a magic book justifies it. The Christo-fascist right sickens me.
What beating a child teaches them is that violence is a good way to solve your problems. That it's OK to bully people who are smaller and weaker than you are. And also that they should work harder at not getting caught. None of these things are things I want children learning in school.
I wonder if this legislator was a playground bully as a child?
I like this young lady.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiSFB-h_Rss
The only thing that surprises me about this is the child "psychologist" who can't think of a better way of keeping order in a classroom than threatening to hit a child.
I am not one who thinks spanking is inherently evil. I think there are much better ways of behavior modification and that those should be taught in high school parenting classes and reinforced during prenatal parenting classes.
I think many parents spank because that is how they were raised and they don't know other techniques. The only examples they know of of children who weren't spanked are the ones who never received any kind of disciple and run wild.
Parenthood is tough. You fight a lot of battles with yourself to not give in and take the easy way out of some situation. After all, this little kid will believe anything you say and you could browbeat them into doing just about anything, if you chose to. It is trivial to do to them what you could never get away with when dealing with another adult. It's a horrific thought. But probably one that occurs to every parent, on occasion. Why not just scream. Or shake. Or slap. It would be so easy. And it would just be this one time. It's their fault! They made me do it.
But taking the right way doesn't require any special training. No degree. Any adult who has navigated their way through adult society without being regularly thrown in jail *knows how* to deal with upset or obstinant people nonviolently. They already have that toolkit. They use it practically every minute of every day, with every person who is not their kid. And little kids are, if anything, easier. Sure they lose it a lot more often, but OTOH when they lose it, 99% of the time it's due to needing food or rest. With adults, the cause of the bad behavior can be far less easily fixed.
So I have very little sympathy and little desire to excuse an adult who opts to use violence or even verbal abuse against a kid. That's a failure of will, a failure of choice. Not a failure of training.
It's not the same toolkit. With adults exhibiting anti-social behavior it's not your job to correct their behavior and you can walk away. Not so when it's your child.
And from what I've seen most parents use the way they were raised as a guide (granted some take it as an example of what *not* to do), so if you want to change things, then yes training in methodologies of behavior modification that don't involve corporal punishment is necessary, because just deciding not to spank doesn't give you the tools to discipline someone and children don't thrive without limits and knowing there are consequences for exceeding those limits.
The bible gives lots of instructions on causing bodily harm to children:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”