New Jersey isn't usually known as a hot-bed of religious nuttery. Refusing to change this oath seems like a strange hill to die on for these election officials. There can be no religious tests for holding public office in this country, and Article VI of the U.S. Constitution pre-dates the Bill of Rights. This speaks directly to how the framers felt about keeping religion out of government.
Toscone's district 39 in which he's running contains one of the nuttiest religious groups of all--ultra Hasidic Jews. They live in the communities along the NJ-NY northern border (most on the NY side). In nearby Sussex and Warren counties, it's Christian gun country. Some of the most Christian-religious members of Congress have represented these rural areas. The framers of the Constitution may have been smart enough to keep religion out, but like today's elected officials, they were largely out of touch with the reality of their constituents'' lives and priorities.
How exactly were the framers "out of touch with the reality of their constituents'' lives and priorities"? The eminent historian Richard Hofstadter examined the available records and concluded that as of 1750 only some 15% of the population attended religious services at all regularly. Sounds like the framers were pretty well in tune with that.
I’ve always wondered — not enough to look into it — if Hofstadter’s numbers reflected the sheer difficulty of travel. In the very religious wing of my family, there is always a service on Sunday morning. If a church isn’t handy, then the service takes place in a living room or around a campfire. I’ve seen this many times at family reunions. It probably helps that my extended family always has 2-3 ordained ministers. My dad was one. He used to quietly grumble that he was on vacation and didn’t want to lead the service.
Back in that period, there were huge throngs of traveling ("circuit") ministers taking a shitload of Jesus to all and sundry. Their sort of itinerant preachers far outnumbered the little red meeting house types. Yet attendance at services was damn low.
Most people back then had education that consisted primarily of bible inculcation. The Puritans were religious whack-jobs that would make today's Republicans look sane. The number of churches per capita was higher then than it is today.
The framers had the intelligence and wherewithal to not be what today would be called 'populists.' They created a system for what they knew the people needed, not what they wanted, to thrive as a society. If the latter had happened, none of us would be here today.
This should be an easy win. Being New Jersey and not the deep south, it shouldn't have had to get to the point of a lawsuit. Too bad Christian Fucking Privilege makes the zealots piss on everything.
It should be an easy win. But what if it goes all the way to the supreme court US is having these days, after Trump sold himself to the religious crazy people in the Republican party?
Replace the word god with an underline, so the candidate can declare an appeal for help from whatever inspires them toward fulfilling their oath. "... so help me ________." E.g., "by the power of Grayskull", "thunder, thunder, Thundercats hoooo!", "gods who help those who help themselves", "me", ...
Just as they force people taking this (illegal) oath to lie since they may be of different sects or not religious at all — the Christians then will gleefully swear an oath to their preferred entity… THEN they start lying constantly about almost everything.
They say (their) God is good/loving/great/all-powerful & real yet, after multiple centuries still do not have a single shred of proof of its existence.
God is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet these trite words must be recited to prove to God that you're following his commandments in the book he wrote. Yup, that makes sense.
I hope he wins his case- but 𝘯𝘰𝘵 his next run for office. He's right about the oath, but the 𝘭𝘢𝘴𝘵 thing we need is another dipshit sabotaging government from the inside, because- let's face it- a Libertarian is going to end up voting with the GQP on damned near everything. Good lawsuit; bad candidate.
The same crowd who mock liberals/Democrats as overly sensitive "snowflakes" think mask mandates during COVID outbreaks and having to get a license to drive=GOVERNMENT TYRANNY!!!!
And oppose any kind of drug decriminalization (even just for medicinal purposes like medical marijuana). And support anti-sodomy and anti-fornication laws.
I realize you were trying to be ironic, but I take issue with comparing depression to loneliness. It is much more complicated than that, it is a biological reaction that makes the littlest thing that goes wrong into a reason to question the value of living. Non-depressed people can feel lonely, ask many introverts.
Kids who self-harm don't do it because they're lonely. (I just finished vol. 4 in the Heartstopper series, so this is on my mind. And yes, this 75 year old geezer just read his first four graphic novels--though I still can't help thinking of them as long comic books.)
I can say from parental experience that you are correct. One of my kids was cutting, was clinically depressed, was on suicide watch, and it wasn’t because of loneliness. That was a pretty horrible time for the whole family and I am eternally grateful to the friends who helped us thru it.
When I was 14 I started keeping a journal. Partly because I knew I wanted to be a writer and wanted to "practice," partly because I needed to vent. This was in the wake of my double molestation at school. And I remember very clearly that the first thing I wrote--the very first sentence--was "Someday I'm going to kill myself." As time went on and I kept writing, it was always a given, unstated but always there, that I wouldn't live very far into adulthood, if I even made it that far.
I'm glad you made it. I didn't write a journal, possibly because my 9th grade English teacher forced us to write a 'journal'. Like I was going to tell a teacher anything real for a grade. I'm not sure I would have anyway though, I couldn't let anyone know what I was going through, even though I didn't understand it myself.
Oh, is THIS overdue! Between Article VI, paragraph 3 of the US Constitution and New Jersey's own constitution, this SHOULD go through like grease through a goose. That said, anyone want to bet that a whole bunch of Christian Nationalist sycophants descend on the Garden State and attempt to thwart Tosone's rightful desire to have a religion-free oath? Wouldn't surprise me.
Still, having the FFRF in his corner is very encouraging and maybe one more step in the process of at least beginning to remove religion (and particularly Christianity!) from the halls of government.
Not EXACTLY on-topic (since it doesn't have to do with the actual legal aspects of this story), but why exactly does anyone need "God's help" to do the right thing? Remember years ago when the (then) governor of Minnesota Jesse Ventura said that Christians are "weak-minded?" This kind of thing gives credence to that.
They've infiltrated every level, they're your neighbors, business partners, teachers, doctors, firefighters, mayors, governors, senators and they will not stop. That's what they do! That's all they do! You can't stop them! They'll wade through you, reach down your throat, and pull your fu..... Wait wrong forum.
It's from Reese's police interrogation. Why am I taking to you!? Who's in charge here?! You've got to understand, those fundamentalist Bible touchers are out there! You can't reason with them, there's no bargaining!
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”
The largest chemical dump in North America wants its officials to believe in God? In some weird, twisted, characteristically American way, I guess that makes some kind of sense.
NJ is a very weird state. Reliably blue in Federal elections, sure... but it's a 𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 conservative blue, 𝘣𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘦𝘥 in heaps of megadonor cash between old money assholes in Central Jersey, new money assholes on the Jersey Shore, the festering pustule that is Atlantic City, and the corporate-dominated industrial Northeast. It doesn't take much pressure from religious nutters in their little-but-absurdly-influential enclaves to push state and local elections red, and the place is 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵𝘭𝘺 on the edge of electing purplish Congresscritters as crooked as Manchin and Sinema whose sole redeeming feature is not being a Republican.
Despite right-wing whinging about the state being basically communist because of a handful of laws they don't like, NJ is about as close to a swing state as you can get without it actually 𝘣𝘦𝘪𝘯𝘨 one.
New Jersey isn't usually known as a hot-bed of religious nuttery. Refusing to change this oath seems like a strange hill to die on for these election officials. There can be no religious tests for holding public office in this country, and Article VI of the U.S. Constitution pre-dates the Bill of Rights. This speaks directly to how the framers felt about keeping religion out of government.
Toscone's district 39 in which he's running contains one of the nuttiest religious groups of all--ultra Hasidic Jews. They live in the communities along the NJ-NY northern border (most on the NY side). In nearby Sussex and Warren counties, it's Christian gun country. Some of the most Christian-religious members of Congress have represented these rural areas. The framers of the Constitution may have been smart enough to keep religion out, but like today's elected officials, they were largely out of touch with the reality of their constituents'' lives and priorities.
How exactly were the framers "out of touch with the reality of their constituents'' lives and priorities"? The eminent historian Richard Hofstadter examined the available records and concluded that as of 1750 only some 15% of the population attended religious services at all regularly. Sounds like the framers were pretty well in tune with that.
We've long know the shamans care less about butts in the seats than bills in the plate. (or now the digits on the bank statement)
I’ve always wondered — not enough to look into it — if Hofstadter’s numbers reflected the sheer difficulty of travel. In the very religious wing of my family, there is always a service on Sunday morning. If a church isn’t handy, then the service takes place in a living room or around a campfire. I’ve seen this many times at family reunions. It probably helps that my extended family always has 2-3 ordained ministers. My dad was one. He used to quietly grumble that he was on vacation and didn’t want to lead the service.
Back in that period, there were huge throngs of traveling ("circuit") ministers taking a shitload of Jesus to all and sundry. Their sort of itinerant preachers far outnumbered the little red meeting house types. Yet attendance at services was damn low.
That’s a good point that I hadn’t thought about.
Most people back then had education that consisted primarily of bible inculcation. The Puritans were religious whack-jobs that would make today's Republicans look sane. The number of churches per capita was higher then than it is today.
The framers had the intelligence and wherewithal to not be what today would be called 'populists.' They created a system for what they knew the people needed, not what they wanted, to thrive as a society. If the latter had happened, none of us would be here today.
I wouldn't think this would be a local issue though. It sounds like a state-wide issue.
Agree, but the point is, all politics is local.
That makes their refusal suspicious and worrying. Trump’s “Steal The Election” operatives are in place.
This should be an easy win. Being New Jersey and not the deep south, it shouldn't have had to get to the point of a lawsuit. Too bad Christian Fucking Privilege makes the zealots piss on everything.
It should be an easy win. But what if it goes all the way to the supreme court US is having these days, after Trump sold himself to the religious crazy people in the Republican party?
That's why I said "should" and not "will".
Replace the word god with an underline, so the candidate can declare an appeal for help from whatever inspires them toward fulfilling their oath. "... so help me ________." E.g., "by the power of Grayskull", "thunder, thunder, Thundercats hoooo!", "gods who help those who help themselves", "me", ...
Naive question: How is this in any way enforceable? Even if it is somehow a state law, Federal law overrides it
The 7 key founders knew what they were doing when they made sure religion had no place at the table of governance.
Those were the good ol' days when a cabal of 7 wealthy white men could make all the rules, and the masses had to trust it was in their best interest.
I could see some governmental agencies requiring an oath that ended in "So help me Trump", since Disaster Pumpkin has replaced God in their theology.
Just as they force people taking this (illegal) oath to lie since they may be of different sects or not religious at all — the Christians then will gleefully swear an oath to their preferred entity… THEN they start lying constantly about almost everything.
They say (their) God is good/loving/great/all-powerful & real yet, after multiple centuries still do not have a single shred of proof of its existence.
God is omniscient and omnipotent, and yet these trite words must be recited to prove to God that you're following his commandments in the book he wrote. Yup, that makes sense.
I hope he wins his case- but 𝘯𝘰𝘵 his next run for office. He's right about the oath, but the 𝘭𝘢𝘴𝘵 thing we need is another dipshit sabotaging government from the inside, because- let's face it- a Libertarian is going to end up voting with the GQP on damned near everything. Good lawsuit; bad candidate.
A Libertarian running for a public office is like someone applying for a nanny position who doesn't like children.
"I got mine, screw everyone else."
Republican? Libertarian? You be the judge (hint: BOTH).
The same crowd who mock liberals/Democrats as overly sensitive "snowflakes" think mask mandates during COVID outbreaks and having to get a license to drive=GOVERNMENT TYRANNY!!!!
The anti-vaxxers who scream MY BODY, MY CHOICE! are the first to deny a woman a needed abortion,
And oppose any kind of drug decriminalization (even just for medicinal purposes like medical marijuana). And support anti-sodomy and anti-fornication laws.
Not to mention all those self-proclaimed "patriots" who "defending Murika" always claim SovCit when charged with insurrection.
If you're so sovereign, why are driving on someone else's roads without paying?
As I once saw them described in a Kim Stanley Robinson novel. Libertarians: Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
I just think of them as conservative Republicans who are ashamed to admit it.
Spent 30 years at Pfizer helping them make drugs that make the world a better place: Viagra, Zoloft, and Lipitor. Boners, loneliness and juicy steaks.
I realize you were trying to be ironic, but I take issue with comparing depression to loneliness. It is much more complicated than that, it is a biological reaction that makes the littlest thing that goes wrong into a reason to question the value of living. Non-depressed people can feel lonely, ask many introverts.
Kids who self-harm don't do it because they're lonely. (I just finished vol. 4 in the Heartstopper series, so this is on my mind. And yes, this 75 year old geezer just read his first four graphic novels--though I still can't help thinking of them as long comic books.)
I can say from parental experience that you are correct. One of my kids was cutting, was clinically depressed, was on suicide watch, and it wasn’t because of loneliness. That was a pretty horrible time for the whole family and I am eternally grateful to the friends who helped us thru it.
I'm glad you and your kid are okay.
Yeah. I spent over 30 years having at least passing thoughts of ending my life at least once a week. It wasn't because I was lonely
When I was 14 I started keeping a journal. Partly because I knew I wanted to be a writer and wanted to "practice," partly because I needed to vent. This was in the wake of my double molestation at school. And I remember very clearly that the first thing I wrote--the very first sentence--was "Someday I'm going to kill myself." As time went on and I kept writing, it was always a given, unstated but always there, that I wouldn't live very far into adulthood, if I even made it that far.
I'm glad you made it. I didn't write a journal, possibly because my 9th grade English teacher forced us to write a 'journal'. Like I was going to tell a teacher anything real for a grade. I'm not sure I would have anyway though, I couldn't let anyone know what I was going through, even though I didn't understand it myself.
In very small handwriting, change god to dog and see if anyone notices.
Oh, is THIS overdue! Between Article VI, paragraph 3 of the US Constitution and New Jersey's own constitution, this SHOULD go through like grease through a goose. That said, anyone want to bet that a whole bunch of Christian Nationalist sycophants descend on the Garden State and attempt to thwart Tosone's rightful desire to have a religion-free oath? Wouldn't surprise me.
Still, having the FFRF in his corner is very encouraging and maybe one more step in the process of at least beginning to remove religion (and particularly Christianity!) from the halls of government.
What's that thing I see on the horizon? Could it possibly be still another ADF loss?
Depends on how much money ADF pays good 'ole Clarence.
Not EXACTLY on-topic (since it doesn't have to do with the actual legal aspects of this story), but why exactly does anyone need "God's help" to do the right thing? Remember years ago when the (then) governor of Minnesota Jesse Ventura said that Christians are "weak-minded?" This kind of thing gives credence to that.
Look at the condition of the country that's said to be "under God." IOW, on YHVHs watch.
Someone needs to hand this deity his pink slip.
America being "under God" is a rather peculiar way to look at things, since I was unaware that "God" is another word for "Canada." *smiles*
Norther elitist!
Take off, you hoser.
They've infiltrated every level, they're your neighbors, business partners, teachers, doctors, firefighters, mayors, governors, senators and they will not stop. That's what they do! That's all they do! You can't stop them! They'll wade through you, reach down your throat, and pull your fu..... Wait wrong forum.
Can they bend their little finger ?
> "They've infiltrated every level....You can't stop them!"
The lizard people? Any forum is the right forum. We have to warn everyone.
It's from the Terminator....
Sounds like it could also be from They Live!
It's from Reese's police interrogation. Why am I taking to you!? Who's in charge here?! You've got to understand, those fundamentalist Bible touchers are out there! You can't reason with them, there's no bargaining!
“Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.”
― Barry Goldwater :)
We are the Bible-ers.
You will be assimilated.
Resistance is futile.
Typical. Can't come up with anything on their own so they steal everything. Just like the Borg.
Kyle Reese... umm, I'll be in my bunk.
Michael Biehn as Kyle Reese, yes. Biehn as the crazy Lt. Coffey in 'The Abyss," not so much.
Just make sure you take the pulse rifle and your tracker.
Or an excerpt from an Allen Drury Cold-War-era novel about communists in our midst.
Or Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Are you sure this is the wrong forum?
Nothing says 'faith in god' like insisting on defending him with state law.
To me this sounds like a Secretary of State with an agenda and a bunch of apathetic legislators.
OT
This Modern Life. MAGA Edition:
https://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2023/10/08
When it comes to MAGA, it's now hard to tell if it's satire or not.
I thought The Onion would go out of business by June of 2017.
The largest chemical dump in North America wants its officials to believe in God? In some weird, twisted, characteristically American way, I guess that makes some kind of sense.
NJ is a very weird state. Reliably blue in Federal elections, sure... but it's a 𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺 conservative blue, 𝘣𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘦𝘥 in heaps of megadonor cash between old money assholes in Central Jersey, new money assholes on the Jersey Shore, the festering pustule that is Atlantic City, and the corporate-dominated industrial Northeast. It doesn't take much pressure from religious nutters in their little-but-absurdly-influential enclaves to push state and local elections red, and the place is 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘵𝘭𝘺 on the edge of electing purplish Congresscritters as crooked as Manchin and Sinema whose sole redeeming feature is not being a Republican.
Despite right-wing whinging about the state being basically communist because of a handful of laws they don't like, NJ is about as close to a swing state as you can get without it actually 𝘣𝘦𝘪𝘯𝘨 one.
Thanks for dispelling stereotype of 'largest chemical dump.'
Suggested replacement phrase: "...and I won't wait for some god to bail me out."