The reason this is even an issue is that there is a nationwide shortage of teachers and guidance counsellors. There is a shortage because the profession is horrendously under paid, because legislators do not value the profession. So, kind and smart people who could become teachers simply follow the dollars and go into other career tracks. As Adam Smith said over 200 years ago - "It is the first job of every man not to be poor". I am sure potential teachers are looking at having to buy their own school supplies, being harassed by obnoxious parents, fearing you might say something it is forbidden to say... the list goes on. American education is long overdue for an overhaul and bringing Jeebus into the classroom is not the fix we need.
The average starting salary is actually better in GA the I expected, but the turnover rate is unacceptable. Add to that that there are too many 'teachers' without necessary licensing credentials - think TX and FL. It is a high intensity, high stress job with long hours.
I think that might be because so many accredited teachers have quit their jobs in Texas and Florida and fled to other states less antagonistic toward public education.
I fled Naples (Collier County) FL. The school board has been taken over by angry old MAGAts hellbent on giving those 'unworthy' children a real education. Of course, not a one of them have a background in education.
It's interesting – we know what successful school systems look like. There are examples from all over the world although not in huge numbers. And yet for some reason we feel reluctant to copy them.
Because a large part of the body politic in the US has to say evil things about education and starve schools for funds because they do not support an educated populace. They want to impose ignorance of epic proportions on everyone.
That, and they have always wanted to kill public education, and privatize the profits in their greedy little hands, all while dumbing down the population. Thus making more easily swayed non-critical thinking probable republican voters.
School chaplains are just one more stupid idea from people who can never stop trying to mark their territory in the public schools, paid for with everyone's tax dollars. It speaks to just how weak the Christian message really is. School chaplains are going to do a lot more harm than good. You would think these 'law makers' would know enough about government to grasp the fact our secular government cannot choose one religion over another. It is never the job o government to backstop religion. Christians are fighting a rear-guard action in the legislatures and courts to accomplish what they failed to achieve from their pulpits.
This goes past "marking territory." What they want is to turn public schools into Christian indoctrination centers. Sunday School isn't enough for them.
There was a time when the courts would have shot this down in a heart beat, but that was before conservatism became the be-all and end-all of the human thought process in this country.
I don't think it matters how weak their message is...the messengers are rabid, wild-eyed control freaks all coked up on power and power-grabs, oblivious to anything in their way, hell-bent on forcing their message down everyone's throats and punishing those who push back. It's very difficult to stop people like that. They make me think of "the infected" in the movie "28 Days Later."
If that 8 cell zygote counts as a child, if it is stored for 21 years before implantation then as a newborn it counts as an adult and can legally have booze in its bottle. They fail to follow their "logic" to its conclusion.
And if it's determined a girl, it can be married as young as this stage in 4 states, if the parents, or legal tutor, are consenting.
Maybe that would be a good idea for trolling republicons
"4 states have no official minimum age, but still require either parental consent, court approval or both: California, Mississippi, New Mexico, and Oklahoma."
Hmmmm. Something didn’t translate well between what was sent and what was received. The gods of chaos back to their godly ways of seeking amusement by interfering in the communications of the mortals.
Some of us find a fulfillment in spirituality, just as some people find the same in atheism. Calling people all religious people insane is no better than Christians trying to control through these methods.
The issue here is the lack of actual mental health training required. Some denominations (Presbyterian, United Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran) require substantial course work in therapy to qualify people for ministry. But these are typically not the people that would look for jobs as school chaplains. And none of them adequately replace the professional social workers schools typically employ.
I get that. I share a frustration about people who don’t understand when it is and is not appropriate to share their faith with others. What I don’t get is the impulse to insult or demean religious people in general.
Yes, I was sort of the same way when I was younger, but I'm a live and let live kind of person these days. If it makes you happy and you're not harming yourself or others and you're not being harmed, go for it.
Argumentum ad populum doesn't fly around here. The actual problem with most religions, and American Christianity in particular, is that they all require some level of reality denial. Christianity insists that 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘦 must adhere to their specific denial of reality.
Most people are religious? I need a citation for that. I think most people just do their own thing, and let those polling lie-persons believe they are religious.
If there must be chaplains in schools you must have chaplains from all denominations. Not just the Catholic or Christian denominations. Christians you aren't the only religion out there though I'm sure you would beg to differ with me. Every denomination. We don't exclude we include. And if you can't have every denomination every religion represented by a chaplain? Don't have Any chaplains! DUH! Simple. Whatever happened to separation of church and State?
State / Church separation is being vitiated on a daily basis by Christian lawmakers such as those mentioned in the article, and governors like DeSantis apparently have ZERO problem with that. Neither do they have a problem with Christian chaplains, for all I can tell.
It will take legal action from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Atheists, and The Satanic Temple to dissuade these lawmakers from their actions, and even then, I would not be certain of the outcome.
I am a bit confused when you write "Not just the Catholic or Christian denominations." Don't you consider Catholics are christians? (Me being picky. Again.)
Catholics kind of think of themselves as superior to other Christian religions. They have The Pope and the Vatican for example. My Catholic church when I was Catholic had nothing to do with other churches even though in my area there is a group of different churches who help the homeless out on a weekly basis- my Catholic church didn't want to get it's hands dirty. No question is too picky for me! Ask away!
Kenny wasn't originally going to receive money from the govt. for his private masturbation fantasy. Instead of turning the other cheek, he kicked and screamed until he got his way.
Ham took taxpayer dollars while simultaneously practicing discrimination in his hiring policies. That's not supposed to happen. It's completely illegal.
Fucking 'faith healers'. None of these people go to a chaplain to heal a broken bone, but 20 years of depression or PTSD, sure you can just 'snap out of it'. I get so sick of how mental health is treated differently from physical health, by laypeople and insurance. It is health, full stop.
All the while banning 𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭 medicine, causing the deaths of more children. And loosening child labor laws to allow children to work in dangerous factories and meat processing plants, causing the deaths of more children. And doing nothing whatsoever to address our national plague of school murder sprees... resulting in scores more of dead children.
Student: I can't handle it anymore. I feel like everyone hates me, and that I'm just a fraud. I feel like I am failing everything.
Counselor: I know you feel that you are under a lot of pressure. But there is a solution. All you have to do is curry favor with great and powerful Tēzcatlīpōca. As a chaplain of Tēzcatlīpōca, I recommend that you take your enemy, preferably a great warrior or a virgin in a pinch, climb the highest building and then rip out their hearts. And then your problems will go away, and your corn harvest will be bountiful.
They won't stop until your country is a bloodbath, excuse-me more of a bloodbath it already is. In a way, they care too much about anyone different of them. There was this ancient Greek story about Procrustes, a man who would invite people for the night and force them to be the right height for a specific bed, by stretching them or cutting their legs. One size for all doesn't work, never had and never will.
An all-powerful being whose existence they are more uncertain of than they are willing to admit, so they close ranks the best they can and take any action necessary to get EVERYONE to agree with and believe as they do.
"Congress shall make no law, respecting an establishment of religion..." And being that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is backed up by Article VI, paragraph 2 of the Constitution ("supreme law of the land"), state constitutions don't get to do it either.
Granted that I am neither a lawyer nor a constitutional scholar ... but that's how I read it.
I don't know how much more blatant these Christian lawmakers could get, in trying to created a de-facto situation where THEIRS is the ONLY religion recognized by the State (a completely improper action, all by itself), and then to use that declaration to shoehorn Christian chaplains into public schools. It's wrong in more ways than I can count.
And yet in Tennessee and Florida, it could go through like grease through a goose.
The dialogue from that conference is powerful ammunition for the FFRF and others who plan to file lawsuits. Thank goodness Christianists feel so comfortable in exposing their true intentions.
It's time for non-christian parents to start schooling their kids about that religion, its mythos and tactics, and encourage their kids to speak up when lines are crossed in "counseling."
Especially those most vulnerable to mental damage, kids who are LGBT. Because we know this position will be abused by bible thumpers, and court cases can cost states and churches when abuse is exposed. Putting a "Spotlight" on the whole situation, if you get my drift. <wink wink>
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" --Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments.
I would argue that having chaplains of any kind in public schools is a religious establishment. In March 1811, Madison vetoed a bill that would have allowed the sale of some federal land to a group in the Mississippi Territory for use as a baptist school. His veto message said even that indirect use of government to support religion was unconstitutional because it violated ’the article of the Constitution which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.'
When you hear christians talking about 'religious freedom', remember they're only talking about the freedom to be christians, and only then when they believe exactly as these people do.
This "event" further illustrates why the key founders wanted to keep religion as far from power as possible.
History has repeatedly shown that religion...especially the Christian one... has always supported dictators, tyrants and murderers. Indeed, those dictators/tyrants/murderers are themselves Christians (or some other religion).
The reason this is even an issue is that there is a nationwide shortage of teachers and guidance counsellors. There is a shortage because the profession is horrendously under paid, because legislators do not value the profession. So, kind and smart people who could become teachers simply follow the dollars and go into other career tracks. As Adam Smith said over 200 years ago - "It is the first job of every man not to be poor". I am sure potential teachers are looking at having to buy their own school supplies, being harassed by obnoxious parents, fearing you might say something it is forbidden to say... the list goes on. American education is long overdue for an overhaul and bringing Jeebus into the classroom is not the fix we need.
Well, another big reason is the reich-wingers see chaplains-as-counselors as another opportunity to shove Jesus into public schools.
They call that (according to Dennis Praeger) "good indoctrination".
Praeger U is where folks go when they can't pass the entrance exam for Dunning-Kruger Community College.
🤣😂🤣😂👏👏😁
Yes, yet another oxymoron, and I don't mean of the Rushbo variety.
Yes, as evidenced in the article, it is the biggest factor
Scroll down to see the chart
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/teacher-salary-by-country
The average starting salary is actually better in GA the I expected, but the turnover rate is unacceptable. Add to that that there are too many 'teachers' without necessary licensing credentials - think TX and FL. It is a high intensity, high stress job with long hours.
I think that might be because so many accredited teachers have quit their jobs in Texas and Florida and fled to other states less antagonistic toward public education.
I fled Naples (Collier County) FL. The school board has been taken over by angry old MAGAts hellbent on giving those 'unworthy' children a real education. Of course, not a one of them have a background in education.
I wonder if there are any school districts left in either state that haven't suffered this same fate.
There are few blue dots around Orlando.
It's interesting – we know what successful school systems look like. There are examples from all over the world although not in huge numbers. And yet for some reason we feel reluctant to copy them.
Because a large part of the body politic in the US has to say evil things about education and starve schools for funds because they do not support an educated populace. They want to impose ignorance of epic proportions on everyone.
BINGO!
That, and they have always wanted to kill public education, and privatize the profits in their greedy little hands, all while dumbing down the population. Thus making more easily swayed non-critical thinking probable republican voters.
https://www.zentaur.org/memes/national_teacher_shortage.jpg
Bingo!
Scroll down to see the chart
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/teacher-salary-by-country
Oh, I'm certain the IRS would beg to differ. And, if we're putting clergy in schools now, it's past time to tax the churches.
Back taxes. Take everything.
^THIS!^
School chaplains are just one more stupid idea from people who can never stop trying to mark their territory in the public schools, paid for with everyone's tax dollars. It speaks to just how weak the Christian message really is. School chaplains are going to do a lot more harm than good. You would think these 'law makers' would know enough about government to grasp the fact our secular government cannot choose one religion over another. It is never the job o government to backstop religion. Christians are fighting a rear-guard action in the legislatures and courts to accomplish what they failed to achieve from their pulpits.
This goes past "marking territory." What they want is to turn public schools into Christian indoctrination centers. Sunday School isn't enough for them.
They want all education to be CHRISTIAN.
There was a time when the courts would have shot this down in a heart beat, but that was before conservatism became the be-all and end-all of the human thought process in this country.
We need a new Madelyn Murray OHair.
Every molesty asshole in their church, will want at all those potential victims.
I don't think it matters how weak their message is...the messengers are rabid, wild-eyed control freaks all coked up on power and power-grabs, oblivious to anything in their way, hell-bent on forcing their message down everyone's throats and punishing those who push back. It's very difficult to stop people like that. They make me think of "the infected" in the movie "28 Days Later."
Edited for missing word,
That is a perfect description, especially to those of us adjacent to the coke scene in the 80's.
Christianity is "not a sane religion," said a wise panelist at a conference for the National Association of Truth Seekers.
Problem is: people like Abraham and Pickren and Schmidt aren't truth seekers. They are POWER seekers.
Megalomaniacs.
I'm sitting here listening to a clip of Chris Cuomo talking to an "adviser" to the Southern Baptist Convention talking about IVF.
Calling 8 cell embryos "children".
No sir, they are not ever going to be children until they are implanted into a uterus. They are literally nothing more than a clump of cells.
If that 8 cell zygote counts as a child, if it is stored for 21 years before implantation then as a newborn it counts as an adult and can legally have booze in its bottle. They fail to follow their "logic" to its conclusion.
And if it's determined a girl, it can be married as young as this stage in 4 states, if the parents, or legal tutor, are consenting.
Maybe that would be a good idea for trolling republicons
"4 states have no official minimum age, but still require either parental consent, court approval or both: California, Mississippi, New Mexico, and Oklahoma."
OMG, Joe, that is BRILLIANT. Born as a 21 year old, LOL.
They really will 'believe' anything they are told to. so gullible.
Why pick on Christianity as not a sane religion? How about, religion is not sane?
On the other hand, since most people are religious, perhaps being religious is the definition of sanity? Ouch.
Hmmmm. Something didn’t translate well between what was sent and what was received. The gods of chaos back to their godly ways of seeking amusement by interfering in the communications of the mortals.
Hail Eris, Goddess of Chaos!
For many, out of chaos comes confusion. For some select few, out of chaos come inspiration
And for many others, out of chaos comes Loki.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c8a25dfc0ba826d36b6b2ee8a174391fbd2e326e7558cd586ce1eadb52e1eb89.jpg
Some of us find a fulfillment in spirituality, just as some people find the same in atheism. Calling people all religious people insane is no better than Christians trying to control through these methods.
The issue here is the lack of actual mental health training required. Some denominations (Presbyterian, United Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran) require substantial course work in therapy to qualify people for ministry. But these are typically not the people that would look for jobs as school chaplains. And none of them adequately replace the professional social workers schools typically employ.
And that is wonderful, that you take comfort in that.
Our problem isn't the spirituality, it's the people that want to force their version of religion on others.
"Pray in your closet" and all that.
I get that. I share a frustration about people who don’t understand when it is and is not appropriate to share their faith with others. What I don’t get is the impulse to insult or demean religious people in general.
Yes, I was sort of the same way when I was younger, but I'm a live and let live kind of person these days. If it makes you happy and you're not harming yourself or others and you're not being harmed, go for it.
Argumentum ad populum doesn't fly around here. The actual problem with most religions, and American Christianity in particular, is that they all require some level of reality denial. Christianity insists that 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘰𝘯𝘦 must adhere to their specific denial of reality.
Most people are religious? I need a citation for that. I think most people just do their own thing, and let those polling lie-persons believe they are religious.
What about worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
That's only because he hasn't shown up yet.....
Neither has Jesus nor Yahweh, and that doesn't stop the christers. 😝
Yes, but the Flying Spaghetti Monster has a better track record of picking World Series winners.
Disbeliever! Scoffer! Fool!/s
Yes, but it is a great intellectual troll!
If there must be chaplains in schools you must have chaplains from all denominations. Not just the Catholic or Christian denominations. Christians you aren't the only religion out there though I'm sure you would beg to differ with me. Every denomination. We don't exclude we include. And if you can't have every denomination every religion represented by a chaplain? Don't have Any chaplains! DUH! Simple. Whatever happened to separation of church and State?
State / Church separation is being vitiated on a daily basis by Christian lawmakers such as those mentioned in the article, and governors like DeSantis apparently have ZERO problem with that. Neither do they have a problem with Christian chaplains, for all I can tell.
It will take legal action from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, American Atheists, and The Satanic Temple to dissuade these lawmakers from their actions, and even then, I would not be certain of the outcome.
Dominionists don't believe in Separation of Church and State.
And they need to to be put out of politics, and any positions of power, where they can do public damage.
I am a bit confused when you write "Not just the Catholic or Christian denominations." Don't you consider Catholics are christians? (Me being picky. Again.)
Catholics kind of think of themselves as superior to other Christian religions. They have The Pope and the Vatican for example. My Catholic church when I was Catholic had nothing to do with other churches even though in my area there is a group of different churches who help the homeless out on a weekly basis- my Catholic church didn't want to get it's hands dirty. No question is too picky for me! Ask away!
And evangelicals think THEIRS is superior and Muslims think THEIRS is and on and on.
You KNOW how well that question went over in 16th century Europe--are you trying to start a war?
Yeah, that would be fun. Or not. I am sure it would be bloody.
My country probably being one of the leaders in that area with England and Holy Roman Empire.
20th century Ireland: 16th century Europe? Do I mean nothing to you?
And 6th (Arianism), 7th-10th (Paganism), 13th-14th (Catharism).
Fair.
Abraham's 50th-ranked Louisiana, by the ugly numbers (be sure to scroll down to see all the rankings)
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/louisiana
Maybe it's just me, but it seems that they have a Noah's Ark of issues that are far more pressing.
Ken Ham is a ham and his ark "tour" with animatronic dinosaurs giving kids a ride is just a grift for these uneducated morons.
Indeed. Both his park and "museum" are monuments to human ignorance.
I wouldn't have a problem with them if they weren't a waste of taxpayers' money.
Kenny wasn't originally going to receive money from the govt. for his private masturbation fantasy. Instead of turning the other cheek, he kicked and screamed until he got his way.
Ham took taxpayer dollars while simultaneously practicing discrimination in his hiring policies. That's not supposed to happen. It's completely illegal.
Hilariously, Ken Ham sued their insurance company back in 2019 for not paying up after WATER DAMAGE and a road being blocked from flooding. Hee Hee!
Well it is made of cement and would not float!
Fucking 'faith healers'. None of these people go to a chaplain to heal a broken bone, but 20 years of depression or PTSD, sure you can just 'snap out of it'. I get so sick of how mental health is treated differently from physical health, by laypeople and insurance. It is health, full stop.
They wouldn't go to a faith healer themselves but they are the one to push for faith healing = medicine, causing the death of children.
All the while banning 𝘢𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭 medicine, causing the deaths of more children. And loosening child labor laws to allow children to work in dangerous factories and meat processing plants, causing the deaths of more children. And doing nothing whatsoever to address our national plague of school murder sprees... resulting in scores more of dead children.
Republicans sure do love dead children.
They're drains on society and can't vote.
Dey beez wit jeezy.
🎯
Indiana mandates healthcare for kids.
Cut off their balls with some rusty shears and tell them to pray themselves whole again.
Before they breed, or it loses some efficacy
Student: I can't handle it anymore. I feel like everyone hates me, and that I'm just a fraud. I feel like I am failing everything.
Counselor: I know you feel that you are under a lot of pressure. But there is a solution. All you have to do is curry favor with great and powerful Tēzcatlīpōca. As a chaplain of Tēzcatlīpōca, I recommend that you take your enemy, preferably a great warrior or a virgin in a pinch, climb the highest building and then rip out their hearts. And then your problems will go away, and your corn harvest will be bountiful.
They won't stop until your country is a bloodbath, excuse-me more of a bloodbath it already is. In a way, they care too much about anyone different of them. There was this ancient Greek story about Procrustes, a man who would invite people for the night and force them to be the right height for a specific bed, by stretching them or cutting their legs. One size for all doesn't work, never had and never will.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes
"Perhaps it’s a given since they’ve never read a second book."
They read one ? Première nouvelle.
"If you blaspheme God, you do not qualify to be a religion."
Your god of ignorance, tantrums, and massacres is a blasphemy for my Goddess.
It's the defensiveness that gets me, I thought these people were adherents of the most powerful being in the universe...
An all-powerful being whose existence they are more uncertain of than they are willing to admit, so they close ranks the best they can and take any action necessary to get EVERYONE to agree with and believe as they do.
And still they're losing out to the nones.
"Congress shall make no law, respecting an establishment of religion..." And being that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment is backed up by Article VI, paragraph 2 of the Constitution ("supreme law of the land"), state constitutions don't get to do it either.
Granted that I am neither a lawyer nor a constitutional scholar ... but that's how I read it.
I don't know how much more blatant these Christian lawmakers could get, in trying to created a de-facto situation where THEIRS is the ONLY religion recognized by the State (a completely improper action, all by itself), and then to use that declaration to shoehorn Christian chaplains into public schools. It's wrong in more ways than I can count.
And yet in Tennessee and Florida, it could go through like grease through a goose.
The dialogue from that conference is powerful ammunition for the FFRF and others who plan to file lawsuits. Thank goodness Christianists feel so comfortable in exposing their true intentions.
Because they sincerely believe they are exempt from all consequences.
They think Gilead is coming.
It's time for non-christian parents to start schooling their kids about that religion, its mythos and tactics, and encourage their kids to speak up when lines are crossed in "counseling."
Especially those most vulnerable to mental damage, kids who are LGBT. Because we know this position will be abused by bible thumpers, and court cases can cost states and churches when abuse is exposed. Putting a "Spotlight" on the whole situation, if you get my drift. <wink wink>
"Spotlight" as in the Boston Globe, I'll guess!
James Madison saw these people coming:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" --Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments.
I would argue that having chaplains of any kind in public schools is a religious establishment. In March 1811, Madison vetoed a bill that would have allowed the sale of some federal land to a group in the Mississippi Territory for use as a baptist school. His veto message said even that indirect use of government to support religion was unconstitutional because it violated ’the article of the Constitution which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.'
When you hear christians talking about 'religious freedom', remember they're only talking about the freedom to be christians, and only then when they believe exactly as these people do.
This "event" further illustrates why the key founders wanted to keep religion as far from power as possible.
History has repeatedly shown that religion...especially the Christian one... has always supported dictators, tyrants and murderers. Indeed, those dictators/tyrants/murderers are themselves Christians (or some other religion).
When religious leaders didn't want to be kings themselves. See the dog fight between pharaohs and Amon clergy during New Empire.
It's good to be the god-king.