When I was growing up, the youth group leaders and youth pastors in our church were women, usually one of the moms of a youth group member. Even today, decades after the Conservative Resurgence that quickly put an end to that, ruling that from hence forward ALL church officials would be men (and surprise, surprise, resulted in the first sex abuse scandal a mere three or four years later; it was a small town so this scandal was HUGE), I still occasionally hear people ruminating about how fortunate it was that the new conservatism "finally brought the church more in line with Biblical teachings, especially with all this wokism going on."
There's a reason Cub Scouts have den mothers instead of den daddies.
Actually, the real reason is that the Cub Scouts originated in the days of stay-at-home moms, and the working dads were unavailable for after-school activities. I have no idea how things are organized now.
My mom was my den mother. I ended up being den leader for my oldest, was very happy to be done, then got sucked back in for my youngest when his den leader disappeared. I think overall it was about 50/50 between moms and dads (or shared) in the pack.
Cub scouts have den leaders that can be any gender. My eldest child was in cub scouts and there were only males in the leadership roles, but that was because of who volunteered. Women can be den leaders and even scoutmasters at the Boy Scouts level. It is Scouts BSA now though since there are girls troops. The youth protection training requires the girls troops to have a certain number of female leaders present at all events and outings, but male leaders are allowed. The hubs is taking the daughter on a High adventure outing on Saturday for a week sailing around St Thomas, if the storm avoids the area. He is the only male leader on this outing.
The BSA has developed the youth protection training to help stop abuse before it happens, it’s not perfect but it does help. Bad guys will find a way, but still they’re doing something about it nowadays which is a lot more than I can say for practically all religions.
I was a Cub in the mid 1960s, and all the den leaders back then were women, usually mothers of one or more of her scouts. The pack to which the dens belonged usually had a man in charge. The older Boy Scouts had all-male leadership (again, usually the father of one of the scouts, meaning favoritism was common). My mother was both a den mother and a Girl Scout troop leader. I quit the scouts when I was thirteen because the scoutmaster was one of those with favoritism issues. He refused to sign off on badges I earned because he didn't want me outperforming his kid. That was fifty-three years ago, so I assume that things have changed since then, but I don't really give a rat's ass about what the scouts are doing these days.
Yup, it’s a sea base adventure. Just got word that the tropical depression is not expected to develop into a hurricane and is further south, so trip’s still on.
Cool, we looked at that a while ago, but there wasn't any real interest. Our troop did do one big trip a few years ago to Catalina Island, but my oldest wasn't 14 yet so he couldn't really do anything out there anyway.
Pedophiles have been allowed to hide behind their Bibles and clerical collars for far too long. This girl's parents need to be charged right along with the pastor. They're the ones who made it possible. It should have been an automatic 'NO' when he first requested permission to date their daughter, and had he persisted, they should have put that church behind them and contacted the police.
The sad fact is that they were all groomed by the church and the doctrine of submission they subject to the women and girls who attended Abide In the Vine Fellowship. Throw in the pastors as unquestionable authorities and the fix is in.
Yup, the first victims of a groomer are the adults surrounding them. And religion, all religion but Christianity and this type of Christianity especially, trains all adherents to be docile and obedient to the clergy. What could possibly go wrong? These families have been groomed since childhood to believe this type of scam. It’s unfortunate and they are a type of victim in this, however it doesn’t completely absolve the parents of responsibility in their daughter’s abuse.
This is what comes of patriarchal religions. Nothing good.
Short of Christianity itself going away altogether, that religion needs to eliminate the position of youth pastor. It is now inescapably linked to child molestation.
Youth pastor will be as easy to eliminate as Catholic priest. It’s never gonna happen. Clergy as a whole is setup for this type of abuse, there isn’t a single type of clergy that isn’t rife with cases of sexual assault, child molestation or other crimes. The only crime perpetrated by clergy that any church is willing to address seriously are financial crimes. And then, only if it negatively affects their bottom line.
I just read a story in my newspaper this morning that people are using AI to create child porn on the dark web and how it is next-to-impossible to nab the offenders.
I just read in BBC where in the dark web there are people coalescing for the purpose of torturing and killing monkeys for pleasure. I am not sure where the human race is heading, but evil is a core tenant of our species.
EDIT:
This sick sadism where BBC showed a picture of a guy laughing in the thumbnail (I wasn't going to watch the video) reminded me of something I think it was Black Hole Mourner once shared with me (I think it was her) but it was a sicko from France that got his jollies killing boys, choking them to death while laughing doing it. To this day I shudder about reading about that character, but I know that today there are scores of people like in him in cartels, in terrorist organizations and just serial killers.
Actor Mike Ferrell (M*A*S*H) does PSAs for PETA and mentions how people who are mistreated as children go on to mistreat others, usually starting with animals.
Didn't Texas just rule that youth pastors and preachers can replace school counselors? That's just asking for misery to be imposed on innocent children!
To be fair, we only hear about the awful ones. There are thousand of youth pastors out there, statistically they can't *all* be pedos. I'd even venture that most aren't, we just don't hear about them because they aren't doing anything noteworthy.
I really think that's painting with too broad a brush, but I also totally understand the sentiment. Heh.
It's not a lie if they believe it. Well, *they* aren't lying, anyway, you can teach things that are untrue without lying, imo, if you actually believe it. It's still terrible of course, but I think it's a relevant point.
Fair enough, although I think accepting the predators exist is going to need to be the first step. I expect there's a lot of "oh, well, that doesn't happen *here*" in churches. Shit, my Mormon sister has literally said that.
The problem is that there are folks freaking out over LGBT people being groomers because the ideas behind LGBT are antithetical to this type of grooming. Consent and bodily autonomy are training the children not to be obedient to parents and pastors and husbands.
Just like all the rest of the hot button issues, especially abortion, it isn’t about protecting the children/women, it’s about protecting the power over the children/women. And it’s also about protecting and gaining more power in society as a whole.
Kudos to Sarah Carr for coming forward and sharing this with the world, it could not have been easy. Thank you.
With that said, I would like to observe that as someone raised in the SBC, this is how the system is intended to work. Christianity sets women up to be taken advantage of in numerous ways, and yes, that is the intent of it. While Ms. Carr's experience was particularly heinous, she is not now and likely never will be alone in that respect; Christian teaching about the role of women emphasizes obedience to the men in their lives then makes them responsible for all intimate encounters, leaving them in a situation where they are supposed to be in charge of something they literally cannot decline for any reason. This is one of the major reasons I got out, actually; if I cannot say no to sexual intercourse but I'm still responsible for it, is it any great leap to assume I'm not allowed in heaven since I'm being blamed for the sin of someone else? At that point, why bother trying to please a Jesus who clearly doesn't care enough about me to ensure I'm only responsible for the things I did?
For what it's worth, I didn't suffer the same sort of abuse Ms. Carr did, but the teachings were the same and I did have problems dating for many years. Christianity is toxic to healthy marriages, and while there certainly are stable Christian marriages, they're doing well despite the religion, not because of it. My contention is that there's something wrong with a man who actually wants a doormat for a wife and smart women should stay the heck away from that guy.
Whitney you are absolutely right! It's not right that it takes my type of experience to get heard. So many people, pretty much anyone outside of the control center (typically CIS gendered white men) are harmed within Christianity.
My optimism that those perpetuating the same system will see the outcomes and make change has waned considerably, but I do have hope that as we keep these conversations going people who have been hurt feel validated in their experience and find healing. Those of us out of it continue to remind those in that they have permission to say no and opt out of the system and the culture.
"I cannot say no to sexual intercourse but I'm still responsible for it"
This is one of the most infuriating things about conservative Christianity*. It's disgusting and unspeakably harmful. I'm going to stop before I write a novel about how angry it makes me.
"there's something wrong with a man who actually wants a doormat for a wife"
This. So much this. Honestly I think it would drive me insane, the idea of having a Stepford wife just makes my junk retract. If I can't have a conversation or a healthy debate with a woman I'm not interested. Speaking of which, anyone know any smart, rational, middle-aged women in SE Iowa? I sure as hell can't find any. 😬
5' 10" (sorry, no metric. I know it's better but I'm from the US 😉) If France would take me I'd go right now. I'm sick of US politics and the midwest. Sadly due to certain health and poverty related issues I don't meet the requirements to go... well, anywhere. I'm a food guy, too, I want a proper steak frites. Maybe Belgian (I think?) style, fry 'em in beef fat. Right, now I'm hungry. Heh.
Because they see women as things and not people, they cannot understand how a predatory youth pastor (I know, kind of redundant) is being predatory. They don't see the obvious grooming as being grooming. The only problem they see is that it became physical before the approved magic ceremony. And yet, they think it is grooming to let young people know that gay people exist.
I would really hate to see that Sarah’s case was only a tool for Shapiro’s political career and not an honest attempt at justice. Our system needs to be able to function even after individuals leave their positions. I hope his replacement is still working on the case, but I’m not holding my breath.
Sarah’s strength is amazing and her decision to come forward so others can find strength in her example is what will help change society to hold these abusers accountable.
As for the church, there needs to be an exodus. No more sticking around to change the church from the inside. It’s not working. If the church can convince you that snakes and donkeys talk, then they can convince you that the punishment of moving the preacher to another congregation (rather than going to the police and civil authorities) is a punishment. And there’s evidence in this church’s history for this. The church will continue to ignore the problem and promote its dogma that enables and breeds this abuse. This isn’t a case of one bad apple, this is a case of the species of tree being poisonous.
Yessss!! "The church will continue to ignore the problem and promote its dogma that enables and breeds abuse." I had hope that it wasn't the case, I'm being proven very wrong!
And politics are politics, aren't they? Thank you for your kind words!
I sincerely hope that you speaking out kicks this case into overdrive. Authorities don't react to being shamed very well, it seems that going public is what will motivate them to act. I want this Fenton clown extradited and held accountable for his crimes. He might say it's "god's will," but that doesn't fly in a fair and secular courtroom.
Among the biggest problems with the bible and churches that purport that they follow that book is the doctrine of women as PROPERTY. Regardless of how Robert Fenton or Fred Hoover may want to spin it, they treated Ms. Carr as PROPERTY, as though she had no right to self-determination or self-agency. This is made worse by language such as Fenton alleging that he was “meant to be with her.” All that did was to disguise his horns as some kind of religious imperative, which is something that those who wear priest collars do all the time to project authority onto their congregants. It's also clear that the party line of that church was that women were expected to submit to men, full stop, no argument, no discussion, which only makes Ms. Carr's whole story that much more predictable and tragic.
Sean Eberly said it: “High-demand religions are extremely toxic.” What a shame it took him so long to learn that lesson, and that it had to be learned at Sarah's expense.
"What a shame it took him so long to learn that lesson, and that it had to be learned at Sarah's expense."
So, what are you doing about it now, Sean? Are you still with that toxic church? Are you actively trying to change that environment? Are you advocating on behalf of women and girls so that they understand agency and autonomy? Or are you just making agreeable-sounding mouth noises about "high demand religions being extremely toxic," so you don't have to feel so guilty about being an aiding and abetting asshole?
Well, as stated in the article, Sean now calls himself an atheist, which is at least one step in the right direction. The problem is that he's likely laboring under the same bubble as everyone else in that church was. One has to wonder how good his apprehension of the outside world is or if he recognizes that the issues at the Abide In the Vine Fellowship are in no way rare or isolated.
My guess is that Sean has a LOT of learning to do.
You said it, Troublesh00ter - he has a LOT to learn. He also has a LOT MORE to unlearn.
My guess is that while these events were unfolding, he saw absolutely nothing wrong or off-kilter about it. It probably sat well with his sense of male entitlement and the proper order of things; with men calling the shots and women having no say in the matter.
TBH, that unearned sense of male entitlement is what grinds my gears the most, because it is dangerous, and it isn't confined to religious circles; it is embedded in the broader patriarchal secular culture of the world in general. Toxic religion caters to this sense of entitlement and is a powerful draw to those who subscribe to it.
He saw what was going on and that was just fine with him at the time. When I start seeing or hearing stories about him actively trying to atone for being an aiding and abetting asshole, by publicly and continually excoriating this appalling system and actively lobbying for laws demanding accountability, then I will believe he deserves more consideration. Until then, he is just trying to wash his hands of it and distance himself from an embarrassing episode in the past.
Sorry Sean, but that ain't gonna cut it. You were part of the system that did this to Sarah. You owe her a hell of a lot more than just calling yourself an atheist and announcing that "high demand religion is extremely toxic." Well, no shit, Sherlock.
Sarah was your friend, FFS. What if she had been your kid sister? Or your daughter? Show a little humanity and do something concrete to change what led to this.
So I need to weigh in here. Sean is one of my close friends to this day. You bring up a lot of valid points about having a lot of unlearning to do. He's been doing that. It was about 5 years ago that I first told him what had really happened to me with Fenton and that it wasn't just some weird church thing that happened. That conversation led to lots of reflection for him. He had to face his own trauma because boys who grow up in this culture also suffer. Yes they experience some privilege but they suffer their own purity culture traumas as well, which he did. But this isn't about his story here, is it? Please know that Sean is an ally here, in the messiness of doing his work and healing, and being supportive of me and others in our peer group that have had to do so much exhausting emotional work to undo all that was done to us.
He was convinced it was God's will because that's what the church culture was like and you didn't question pastors or the prophetic gifts (I just threw up a little in my mouth). He says it is his biggest regret that he didn't speak up, but he was 16 at the time, a kid himself. I was like a kid sister to him. He was powerless. He's not now and he is doing his part.
Hi Sarah, thanks for coming over! First off as a fellow survivor I just want to say my heart goes out to you and if there's anything I, a random stranger on the net, can do please let me know. I also left a high demand religion (Mormons) and I understand how difficult it can be to unravel it from yourself. Please let Sean know that although it takes time (I'm 45 and still have a little trouble with some stuff, although it's not bad) it can be done and it's totally worth it. Stay strong, both of you, you got this. 🙂
Thank you so much! And I'm so glad you got out as well. Whenever anyone hears my story one of the first follow up questions is are you mormon? It was hearing some of the stories out of LDS and Warren Jeff's extreme beliefs in particular that first helped me better understand what had happened to me and how my parents and extended family could go along with the whole thing. Here's to reclaiming lives of our own choosing!!
Thank you. That's good to know. I have known far too many men who have not even done that much, and just seemed to think that saying the right-sounding thing later while continuing to stay the course or walk away was all that was required of them.
I have also known a few (very few) men who have come out of such systems and fought hard to bring about actual change; this is sorely needed because, sadly, men's voices are still given more credence than women's in this current cultural/political environment. It is also difficult because they themselves come under harsh criticism by the religious right. But at least one told me that it was the best thing he'd ever done, this trying to right a past wrong.
Yes, I am sure boys suffer from the purity culture as well; that is only logical, and I believe this is something we all need more discussion and conversation about. It is now common knowledge that women and girls end up sexually abused in such environments but there has been little investigation or information forthcoming as to what kinds of traumas boys face. I believe that boys and men bringing this to light will lend a powerful impetus to change, because, sadly, boys' lives are deemed more valuable than girls' lives. It's horrid and wrong, but that's the way things are from a cultural/political standpoint at this time. And yes, that needs to change as well. It is something my friends and I fight on a daily basis.
For now, if boys/men are allies, that is good. But if in the future, they were fighters, that would be better.
Well, I can tell you a little about how boys suffer from purity culture. I was raised Mormon and taught very, very conservative things about sexuality (my mom told me that masturbation destroys my soul, for example. Two years after I started doing it... not that she knew that.) and it still effects me 30 years after I left.
I am still very uptight about talking about sex, even if I've been with someone for years. This has seriously affected relationships, even ruined some. When I was younger, especially a teen, I felt massive amounts of guilt when I had or even thought about sex to the point I once told a friend I might as well be Catholic. And I'm straight, the poor LGBTQ kids in the religion have it way, way worse.
Another big effect of it in the LDS church is that kids tend to get married very early, say 18-19, to people they met like 6 months ago because they don't know the difference between being horny and being in love. Two of my sisters have said that if they could travel back in time they would have married someone else and that makes me incredibly sad. Although I understand, I never would have married either of those guys. I might add to this comment after coffee. 😉
I couldn't agree more, we need more men to be fighters in creating this cultural change. I have a few men in my circle that are active thought leaders, questioning the norms, and challenging what has been the status quo. Men, we need more of you and we need to hear your voices too!
For those brainwashed it makes no difference, girls/women are in the wrong, always. My father side didn’t insisted much on immediate weddings but inviting family members who works in several Europeans countries is not an easy task, but chastity ? It was mandatory for girls otherwise it was a (shotgun ?) wedding.
Yes, shotgun wedding is the right term. When the girl's pa catches some young man diddling his daughter, and forces him to marry her at gunpoint.
Or sometimes, when the girl turns up pregnant and the suspect is rounded up and forced into marriage the same way. Several old movies I'm aware of have treated this as a comical trope.
"...she believes Fenton had honest intentions and that it was only his inability to find a wife his own age that led him to target younger women..."
Jesus, there is so much wrong implitic in that. If you are *targeting* someone specifically because you expect them to be unequal in terms of savvy or maturity or because you expect to be able to dominate them in the relationship, then that's a real big warning sign you're doing something selfish, not loving.
"No adults will date me, I want to date your child"
If someone said that to me I'd toss him out of my home so fast he'd leave a red smear on the sidewalk. I'm color blind and even *I* could see that red flag. Of course I'm also not a devout Christian...
Sara Carr is the hero of this story. I cannot fathom the bravery she mustered to reveal what this man did to her and how the religious community paved the way for it to happen.
"It wasn’t just illegal since she was underage; it violated their own religious beliefs regarding abstinence before marriage."
It's really time for the world to realize that a church's publicly avowed beliefs are just that, PUBLIC avowals, essentially in place for the purpose of good PR. They are in no way intended to govern the PRIVATE behavior of the religion's adherents, and most certainly not its leaders. The nearest equivalent would be a company insisting that "Our workers' safety is our highest priority" while forcing their workers to operate in unsafe conditions.
It would sure keep him from repeating his indiscretions. At least for a bit, anyway. The problem is that the biggest erogenous zone in a human is the brain. So maybe I'll get lucky with that punch as his head collides with the wall behind him.
Believe me, as bad as a punch to the breast plate might be to a guy, it pales in comparison to a boot landing directly in guy's package. The sack, most of all.
When MAGAts ask "why should we have good relations with other countries?" - This right here? 𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘺. Not just for fighting the next war, or preventing it, or extending humanitarian aid after a major disaster, or for leveraging grand concessions in trade agreements, or gaining access to treasure troves of natural resources... but also for every time some boil on the ass of humanity flies the coop to duck the consequences of their actions.
A country as closely aligned with us as Australia has been should absolutely 𝘯𝘰𝘵 have been a safe haven for this monster. Hopefully, wherever the extradition process stalled or broke down, the issue can soon be resolved so that justice can finally be done (and, hopefully, it wasn't something so banal and stupid as Sarah's case getting lost in the shuffle as politicians switched chairs with each other).
These are also people who ask why we should have food stamps. Why should they pay taxes? If it doesn't benefit them directly then there's no point in their minds. They buy the lie that a man can be independent of any of his fellow humans.
You missed the intent of the comment. People who are sarcastically asking this are acting in bad faith anyway. They think America should be alone not just first. Conversations with them are useless
Two of Joseph Smith's brides (Helen Mar Kimball and Nancy Winchester) were 14 when the old fraud and perv married them. The former was 8 when she met him and the latter was 6 when she met him.
Joey came to a bad end, shot and killed in jail along with his brother Hiram by a mob. But he wasn't executed for child molestation. It was for destroying a printing press that had churned out news unflattering to him (polygamy and attempts to make himself king of a theocracy. He was also charged with treason for declaring martial law).
Their apologetics is that Joseph Smith only had the one wife. The bigamy was Brigham Young’s idea.
Remember that one guy who wrote the letter to the LDS church asking for clarification on all kinds of questions. He was still in good standing to get the answers but when they didn’t respond for a long while he eventually left. This was a story 8 or 10 years ago. One of his questions was why the folks not in the LDS church knew all about Joe’s wives but he and all of his church didnt.
"Liberty." Another word reichwingers don't understand.
(BTW, when you were on your walk around Green Lake the other day, did notice whether or not Spud Fish and Chips was still still there in the original little googie building or did they move it to a mixed use unit yet?)
Deep fried bad for you? Try the Salmon Cooker at Pier 57. Smoked halibut, cod and salmon fish and chips. And the "fries" are big jojos that are not deep fried.
Christian clergy, who are normally obsessed about the sexual practices of others (gay people in particular), never seem to be able to control their own lusts. Especially when it comes to the underaged. Yet they continue to present themselves as moral whereas they condemn others as vile and hell-bound.
Wasn't it their savior that told these hypocrites to first remove the beam/log/plank from their own eyes before attempting to remove the mote/speck/splinter from the eyes of others?
Dude, these are American Christians (tm). They don't give a shit about what that dirty, socialist, hippie had to say. I mean hell, he was *Jewish* for Christ's sake.
Not only that, but they simply refuse to condemn many of those predators. I can't understand the mentality – but then I really can't understand Christianity either.
Xtianity rose in a time of barbaric practices. Chopping off hands or feet for theft. Or death for adultery. Superstitious nonsense was rampant and controlled everything. Only kings and noblemen had any ability to read or write.
I think it was back on Ed Brayton's* blog where we were trying to find a secular phrase for "preaching to the choir". I don't think we came up with a good one, but it was a long time ago and I've... well, let's just say I've burned a few brains cells since then, if you know what I mean. 😏
*RIP Ed, you are missed. Dammit, he's not going to see this. Now I have a sad.
"Youth pastor" is even more of a red flag than "Catholic priest".
When I was growing up, the youth group leaders and youth pastors in our church were women, usually one of the moms of a youth group member. Even today, decades after the Conservative Resurgence that quickly put an end to that, ruling that from hence forward ALL church officials would be men (and surprise, surprise, resulted in the first sex abuse scandal a mere three or four years later; it was a small town so this scandal was HUGE), I still occasionally hear people ruminating about how fortunate it was that the new conservatism "finally brought the church more in line with Biblical teachings, especially with all this wokism going on."
*bangs head on desk*
There's a reason Cub Scouts have den mothers instead of den daddies.
Actually, the real reason is that the Cub Scouts originated in the days of stay-at-home moms, and the working dads were unavailable for after-school activities. I have no idea how things are organized now.
When I was a Cub Scout 35 years ago we did have den mothers. I'm also not sure how things are now since so much has changed in Scouting.
My mom was my den mother. I ended up being den leader for my oldest, was very happy to be done, then got sucked back in for my youngest when his den leader disappeared. I think overall it was about 50/50 between moms and dads (or shared) in the pack.
Cub scouts have den leaders that can be any gender. My eldest child was in cub scouts and there were only males in the leadership roles, but that was because of who volunteered. Women can be den leaders and even scoutmasters at the Boy Scouts level. It is Scouts BSA now though since there are girls troops. The youth protection training requires the girls troops to have a certain number of female leaders present at all events and outings, but male leaders are allowed. The hubs is taking the daughter on a High adventure outing on Saturday for a week sailing around St Thomas, if the storm avoids the area. He is the only male leader on this outing.
The BSA has developed the youth protection training to help stop abuse before it happens, it’s not perfect but it does help. Bad guys will find a way, but still they’re doing something about it nowadays which is a lot more than I can say for practically all religions.
I was a Cub in the mid 1960s, and all the den leaders back then were women, usually mothers of one or more of her scouts. The pack to which the dens belonged usually had a man in charge. The older Boy Scouts had all-male leadership (again, usually the father of one of the scouts, meaning favoritism was common). My mother was both a den mother and a Girl Scout troop leader. I quit the scouts when I was thirteen because the scoutmaster was one of those with favoritism issues. He refused to sign off on badges I earned because he didn't want me outperforming his kid. That was fifty-three years ago, so I assume that things have changed since then, but I don't really give a rat's ass about what the scouts are doing these days.
Is that Sea Base?
Yup, it’s a sea base adventure. Just got word that the tropical depression is not expected to develop into a hurricane and is further south, so trip’s still on.
Cool, we looked at that a while ago, but there wasn't any real interest. Our troop did do one big trip a few years ago to Catalina Island, but my oldest wasn't 14 yet so he couldn't really do anything out there anyway.
Tomatoe, ta-matoe, it's a distinction without a difference.
Let's call the whole thing off.
Pedophiles have been allowed to hide behind their Bibles and clerical collars for far too long. This girl's parents need to be charged right along with the pastor. They're the ones who made it possible. It should have been an automatic 'NO' when he first requested permission to date their daughter, and had he persisted, they should have put that church behind them and contacted the police.
The sad fact is that they were all groomed by the church and the doctrine of submission they subject to the women and girls who attended Abide In the Vine Fellowship. Throw in the pastors as unquestionable authorities and the fix is in.
Yup, the first victims of a groomer are the adults surrounding them. And religion, all religion but Christianity and this type of Christianity especially, trains all adherents to be docile and obedient to the clergy. What could possibly go wrong? These families have been groomed since childhood to believe this type of scam. It’s unfortunate and they are a type of victim in this, however it doesn’t completely absolve the parents of responsibility in their daughter’s abuse.
This is what comes of patriarchal religions. Nothing good.
Short of Christianity itself going away altogether, that religion needs to eliminate the position of youth pastor. It is now inescapably linked to child molestation.
Youth pastor will be as easy to eliminate as Catholic priest. It’s never gonna happen. Clergy as a whole is setup for this type of abuse, there isn’t a single type of clergy that isn’t rife with cases of sexual assault, child molestation or other crimes. The only crime perpetrated by clergy that any church is willing to address seriously are financial crimes. And then, only if it negatively affects their bottom line.
I just read a story in my newspaper this morning that people are using AI to create child porn on the dark web and how it is next-to-impossible to nab the offenders.
*smfh*
I just read in BBC where in the dark web there are people coalescing for the purpose of torturing and killing monkeys for pleasure. I am not sure where the human race is heading, but evil is a core tenant of our species.
EDIT:
This sick sadism where BBC showed a picture of a guy laughing in the thumbnail (I wasn't going to watch the video) reminded me of something I think it was Black Hole Mourner once shared with me (I think it was her) but it was a sicko from France that got his jollies killing boys, choking them to death while laughing doing it. To this day I shudder about reading about that character, but I know that today there are scores of people like in him in cartels, in terrorist organizations and just serial killers.
Actor Mike Ferrell (M*A*S*H) does PSAs for PETA and mentions how people who are mistreated as children go on to mistreat others, usually starting with animals.
I think Jeffrey Dahmer said he starting harming animals before moving to humans.
I must admit, I'd probably laugh while executing abusive youth pastors in my basement...
Nope, not me. Maybe CorporalKlinger or Martin Penwald.
By the way, I am not a trans man, so please drop the "Dude" and "He" 😁
OK, bro. ;)
Ok girl, no Bibimbap for you. It's ready and in the fridge, I just have to assemble it 😝
I apologize if I called you "he" and you identify differently. Just let me know and I will correct it.
I am a cis woman ;)
Ah, some ancient France serial killer, forgot his name, but a very haunting figure.
Ah, Gilles de Rais 15th century ?
Gilles de Rais?
Didn't Texas just rule that youth pastors and preachers can replace school counselors? That's just asking for misery to be imposed on innocent children!
Must've been the climate change-induced triple-digit heatwave they're currently embroiled in that caused them to lose what little sanity they had.
Have you met our legislators? Sanity is disqualifying.
Yep. In Florida I can be a teacher, in Texas I can be a school counselor. Go figure.
Tex-ass again. Why am I not surprised.....
Especially the LGBT ones who can't get true psychological care for their confusion and pain unless their parents pay for it.
To be fair, we only hear about the awful ones. There are thousand of youth pastors out there, statistically they can't *all* be pedos. I'd even venture that most aren't, we just don't hear about them because they aren't doing anything noteworthy.
The bad ones have ruined it for the rest.
Not that teaching lies about supernatural deities and realms to children is moral in any way.
I really think that's painting with too broad a brush, but I also totally understand the sentiment. Heh.
It's not a lie if they believe it. Well, *they* aren't lying, anyway, you can teach things that are untrue without lying, imo, if you actually believe it. It's still terrible of course, but I think it's a relevant point.
Forgot to say...
The "good" ones need to accept responsibility for their bad ones and either rein them in or drive them out.
Fair enough, although I think accepting the predators exist is going to need to be the first step. I expect there's a lot of "oh, well, that doesn't happen *here*" in churches. Shit, my Mormon sister has literally said that.
Hey MAGAts, tell me again WHO are the groomers?
The problem is that there are folks freaking out over LGBT people being groomers because the ideas behind LGBT are antithetical to this type of grooming. Consent and bodily autonomy are training the children not to be obedient to parents and pastors and husbands.
Just like all the rest of the hot button issues, especially abortion, it isn’t about protecting the children/women, it’s about protecting the power over the children/women. And it’s also about protecting and gaining more power in society as a whole.
Kudos to Sarah Carr for coming forward and sharing this with the world, it could not have been easy. Thank you.
With that said, I would like to observe that as someone raised in the SBC, this is how the system is intended to work. Christianity sets women up to be taken advantage of in numerous ways, and yes, that is the intent of it. While Ms. Carr's experience was particularly heinous, she is not now and likely never will be alone in that respect; Christian teaching about the role of women emphasizes obedience to the men in their lives then makes them responsible for all intimate encounters, leaving them in a situation where they are supposed to be in charge of something they literally cannot decline for any reason. This is one of the major reasons I got out, actually; if I cannot say no to sexual intercourse but I'm still responsible for it, is it any great leap to assume I'm not allowed in heaven since I'm being blamed for the sin of someone else? At that point, why bother trying to please a Jesus who clearly doesn't care enough about me to ensure I'm only responsible for the things I did?
For what it's worth, I didn't suffer the same sort of abuse Ms. Carr did, but the teachings were the same and I did have problems dating for many years. Christianity is toxic to healthy marriages, and while there certainly are stable Christian marriages, they're doing well despite the religion, not because of it. My contention is that there's something wrong with a man who actually wants a doormat for a wife and smart women should stay the heck away from that guy.
Whitney you are absolutely right! It's not right that it takes my type of experience to get heard. So many people, pretty much anyone outside of the control center (typically CIS gendered white men) are harmed within Christianity.
My optimism that those perpetuating the same system will see the outcomes and make change has waned considerably, but I do have hope that as we keep these conversations going people who have been hurt feel validated in their experience and find healing. Those of us out of it continue to remind those in that they have permission to say no and opt out of the system and the culture.
"I cannot say no to sexual intercourse but I'm still responsible for it"
This is one of the most infuriating things about conservative Christianity*. It's disgusting and unspeakably harmful. I'm going to stop before I write a novel about how angry it makes me.
"there's something wrong with a man who actually wants a doormat for a wife"
This. So much this. Honestly I think it would drive me insane, the idea of having a Stepford wife just makes my junk retract. If I can't have a conversation or a healthy debate with a woman I'm not interested. Speaking of which, anyone know any smart, rational, middle-aged women in SE Iowa? I sure as hell can't find any. 😬
*bet you the Unitarians don't teach that shit.
What's your height and when will you move to France ? 😁
5' 10" (sorry, no metric. I know it's better but I'm from the US 😉) If France would take me I'd go right now. I'm sick of US politics and the midwest. Sadly due to certain health and poverty related issues I don't meet the requirements to go... well, anywhere. I'm a food guy, too, I want a proper steak frites. Maybe Belgian (I think?) style, fry 'em in beef fat. Right, now I'm hungry. Heh.
Disqualified. Sorry you are too tall.
What height are you into? I'm not overly attached to my feet... 😉
5'7" at most, slightly smaller is better.
I am 5' 9, what about me?
I had a fuck buddy your height, not again. My limit is 5'7".
I am 4'9"/1,45 m. NOGODZ would be an acceptable candidate :)
I'm 5'6" and I tower over B H m. :)
And I'll add kudos to Hemant for his excellent work on this article.
𝑊ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑚𝑖𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑚𝑛 𝐹𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑜𝑛 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑤ℎ𝑎𝑡 ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑖𝑑, 𝑠ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑑𝑜𝑛’𝑡 𝑠𝑒𝑒 ℎ𝑖𝑚 𝑎𝑠 𝑎 “𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑑𝑎𝑡𝑜𝑟.”
Because they see women as things and not people, they cannot understand how a predatory youth pastor (I know, kind of redundant) is being predatory. They don't see the obvious grooming as being grooming. The only problem they see is that it became physical before the approved magic ceremony. And yet, they think it is grooming to let young people know that gay people exist.
This is why purity culture is so harmful.
I would really hate to see that Sarah’s case was only a tool for Shapiro’s political career and not an honest attempt at justice. Our system needs to be able to function even after individuals leave their positions. I hope his replacement is still working on the case, but I’m not holding my breath.
Sarah’s strength is amazing and her decision to come forward so others can find strength in her example is what will help change society to hold these abusers accountable.
As for the church, there needs to be an exodus. No more sticking around to change the church from the inside. It’s not working. If the church can convince you that snakes and donkeys talk, then they can convince you that the punishment of moving the preacher to another congregation (rather than going to the police and civil authorities) is a punishment. And there’s evidence in this church’s history for this. The church will continue to ignore the problem and promote its dogma that enables and breeds this abuse. This isn’t a case of one bad apple, this is a case of the species of tree being poisonous.
Yessss!! "The church will continue to ignore the problem and promote its dogma that enables and breeds abuse." I had hope that it wasn't the case, I'm being proven very wrong!
And politics are politics, aren't they? Thank you for your kind words!
Or they'll ignore the problem until the lawsuits start flying and their coffers start to empty out.
THEN they'll take action...maybe.
Or they will borrow a page from catholic's book and declare (fraudulent) bankruptcy.
I sincerely hope that you speaking out kicks this case into overdrive. Authorities don't react to being shamed very well, it seems that going public is what will motivate them to act. I want this Fenton clown extradited and held accountable for his crimes. He might say it's "god's will," but that doesn't fly in a fair and secular courtroom.
Thank you for coming here. I’m glad you can see that there are folks here who have your back, as best as we can.
Among the biggest problems with the bible and churches that purport that they follow that book is the doctrine of women as PROPERTY. Regardless of how Robert Fenton or Fred Hoover may want to spin it, they treated Ms. Carr as PROPERTY, as though she had no right to self-determination or self-agency. This is made worse by language such as Fenton alleging that he was “meant to be with her.” All that did was to disguise his horns as some kind of religious imperative, which is something that those who wear priest collars do all the time to project authority onto their congregants. It's also clear that the party line of that church was that women were expected to submit to men, full stop, no argument, no discussion, which only makes Ms. Carr's whole story that much more predictable and tragic.
Sean Eberly said it: “High-demand religions are extremely toxic.” What a shame it took him so long to learn that lesson, and that it had to be learned at Sarah's expense.
"What a shame it took him so long to learn that lesson, and that it had to be learned at Sarah's expense."
So, what are you doing about it now, Sean? Are you still with that toxic church? Are you actively trying to change that environment? Are you advocating on behalf of women and girls so that they understand agency and autonomy? Or are you just making agreeable-sounding mouth noises about "high demand religions being extremely toxic," so you don't have to feel so guilty about being an aiding and abetting asshole?
Well, as stated in the article, Sean now calls himself an atheist, which is at least one step in the right direction. The problem is that he's likely laboring under the same bubble as everyone else in that church was. One has to wonder how good his apprehension of the outside world is or if he recognizes that the issues at the Abide In the Vine Fellowship are in no way rare or isolated.
My guess is that Sean has a LOT of learning to do.
You said it, Troublesh00ter - he has a LOT to learn. He also has a LOT MORE to unlearn.
My guess is that while these events were unfolding, he saw absolutely nothing wrong or off-kilter about it. It probably sat well with his sense of male entitlement and the proper order of things; with men calling the shots and women having no say in the matter.
TBH, that unearned sense of male entitlement is what grinds my gears the most, because it is dangerous, and it isn't confined to religious circles; it is embedded in the broader patriarchal secular culture of the world in general. Toxic religion caters to this sense of entitlement and is a powerful draw to those who subscribe to it.
He saw what was going on and that was just fine with him at the time. When I start seeing or hearing stories about him actively trying to atone for being an aiding and abetting asshole, by publicly and continually excoriating this appalling system and actively lobbying for laws demanding accountability, then I will believe he deserves more consideration. Until then, he is just trying to wash his hands of it and distance himself from an embarrassing episode in the past.
Sorry Sean, but that ain't gonna cut it. You were part of the system that did this to Sarah. You owe her a hell of a lot more than just calling yourself an atheist and announcing that "high demand religion is extremely toxic." Well, no shit, Sherlock.
Sarah was your friend, FFS. What if she had been your kid sister? Or your daughter? Show a little humanity and do something concrete to change what led to this.
So I need to weigh in here. Sean is one of my close friends to this day. You bring up a lot of valid points about having a lot of unlearning to do. He's been doing that. It was about 5 years ago that I first told him what had really happened to me with Fenton and that it wasn't just some weird church thing that happened. That conversation led to lots of reflection for him. He had to face his own trauma because boys who grow up in this culture also suffer. Yes they experience some privilege but they suffer their own purity culture traumas as well, which he did. But this isn't about his story here, is it? Please know that Sean is an ally here, in the messiness of doing his work and healing, and being supportive of me and others in our peer group that have had to do so much exhausting emotional work to undo all that was done to us.
He was convinced it was God's will because that's what the church culture was like and you didn't question pastors or the prophetic gifts (I just threw up a little in my mouth). He says it is his biggest regret that he didn't speak up, but he was 16 at the time, a kid himself. I was like a kid sister to him. He was powerless. He's not now and he is doing his part.
Hi Sarah, thanks for coming over! First off as a fellow survivor I just want to say my heart goes out to you and if there's anything I, a random stranger on the net, can do please let me know. I also left a high demand religion (Mormons) and I understand how difficult it can be to unravel it from yourself. Please let Sean know that although it takes time (I'm 45 and still have a little trouble with some stuff, although it's not bad) it can be done and it's totally worth it. Stay strong, both of you, you got this. 🙂
Thank you so much! And I'm so glad you got out as well. Whenever anyone hears my story one of the first follow up questions is are you mormon? It was hearing some of the stories out of LDS and Warren Jeff's extreme beliefs in particular that first helped me better understand what had happened to me and how my parents and extended family could go along with the whole thing. Here's to reclaiming lives of our own choosing!!
Thank you. That's good to know. I have known far too many men who have not even done that much, and just seemed to think that saying the right-sounding thing later while continuing to stay the course or walk away was all that was required of them.
I have also known a few (very few) men who have come out of such systems and fought hard to bring about actual change; this is sorely needed because, sadly, men's voices are still given more credence than women's in this current cultural/political environment. It is also difficult because they themselves come under harsh criticism by the religious right. But at least one told me that it was the best thing he'd ever done, this trying to right a past wrong.
Yes, I am sure boys suffer from the purity culture as well; that is only logical, and I believe this is something we all need more discussion and conversation about. It is now common knowledge that women and girls end up sexually abused in such environments but there has been little investigation or information forthcoming as to what kinds of traumas boys face. I believe that boys and men bringing this to light will lend a powerful impetus to change, because, sadly, boys' lives are deemed more valuable than girls' lives. It's horrid and wrong, but that's the way things are from a cultural/political standpoint at this time. And yes, that needs to change as well. It is something my friends and I fight on a daily basis.
For now, if boys/men are allies, that is good. But if in the future, they were fighters, that would be better.
Well, I can tell you a little about how boys suffer from purity culture. I was raised Mormon and taught very, very conservative things about sexuality (my mom told me that masturbation destroys my soul, for example. Two years after I started doing it... not that she knew that.) and it still effects me 30 years after I left.
I am still very uptight about talking about sex, even if I've been with someone for years. This has seriously affected relationships, even ruined some. When I was younger, especially a teen, I felt massive amounts of guilt when I had or even thought about sex to the point I once told a friend I might as well be Catholic. And I'm straight, the poor LGBTQ kids in the religion have it way, way worse.
Another big effect of it in the LDS church is that kids tend to get married very early, say 18-19, to people they met like 6 months ago because they don't know the difference between being horny and being in love. Two of my sisters have said that if they could travel back in time they would have married someone else and that makes me incredibly sad. Although I understand, I never would have married either of those guys. I might add to this comment after coffee. 😉
I couldn't agree more, we need more men to be fighters in creating this cultural change. I have a few men in my circle that are active thought leaders, questioning the norms, and challenging what has been the status quo. Men, we need more of you and we need to hear your voices too!
For those brainwashed it makes no difference, girls/women are in the wrong, always. My father side didn’t insisted much on immediate weddings but inviting family members who works in several Europeans countries is not an easy task, but chastity ? It was mandatory for girls otherwise it was a (shotgun ?) wedding.
Yes, shotgun wedding is the right term. When the girl's pa catches some young man diddling his daughter, and forces him to marry her at gunpoint.
Or sometimes, when the girl turns up pregnant and the suspect is rounded up and forced into marriage the same way. Several old movies I'm aware of have treated this as a comical trope.
Happened to one of my aunts in the 70's.
"...she believes Fenton had honest intentions and that it was only his inability to find a wife his own age that led him to target younger women..."
Jesus, there is so much wrong implitic in that. If you are *targeting* someone specifically because you expect them to be unequal in terms of savvy or maturity or because you expect to be able to dominate them in the relationship, then that's a real big warning sign you're doing something selfish, not loving.
"No adults will date me, I want to date your child"
If someone said that to me I'd toss him out of my home so fast he'd leave a red smear on the sidewalk. I'm color blind and even *I* could see that red flag. Of course I'm also not a devout Christian...
Sara Carr is the hero of this story. I cannot fathom the bravery she mustered to reveal what this man did to her and how the religious community paved the way for it to happen.
"It wasn’t just illegal since she was underage; it violated their own religious beliefs regarding abstinence before marriage."
It's really time for the world to realize that a church's publicly avowed beliefs are just that, PUBLIC avowals, essentially in place for the purpose of good PR. They are in no way intended to govern the PRIVATE behavior of the religion's adherents, and most certainly not its leaders. The nearest equivalent would be a company insisting that "Our workers' safety is our highest priority" while forcing their workers to operate in unsafe conditions.
Work-life balance. You work when we want you as long as we want you to, if there's any time left over you can have a life until we take it away.
I look at Fenton and I want to punch a wall with his face in the way.
Christians like this ogre always manage to bring out the worst in me.
You are not the only one, my target is lower than yours.
It would sure keep him from repeating his indiscretions. At least for a bit, anyway. The problem is that the biggest erogenous zone in a human is the brain. So maybe I'll get lucky with that punch as his head collides with the wall behind him.
For once, I meant the sternum, get your mind out of the gutter (it's my place anyway).
For a guy, "lower" always means one target and one target only. :)
He is obese, the sternum should be an easier and more painful target when punched.
Believe me, as bad as a punch to the breast plate might be to a guy, it pales in comparison to a boot landing directly in guy's package. The sack, most of all.
Plenty of room for all of us!
When MAGAts ask "why should we have good relations with other countries?" - This right here? 𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘸𝘩𝘺. Not just for fighting the next war, or preventing it, or extending humanitarian aid after a major disaster, or for leveraging grand concessions in trade agreements, or gaining access to treasure troves of natural resources... but also for every time some boil on the ass of humanity flies the coop to duck the consequences of their actions.
A country as closely aligned with us as Australia has been should absolutely 𝘯𝘰𝘵 have been a safe haven for this monster. Hopefully, wherever the extradition process stalled or broke down, the issue can soon be resolved so that justice can finally be done (and, hopefully, it wasn't something so banal and stupid as Sarah's case getting lost in the shuffle as politicians switched chairs with each other).
Anyone who asks --> "why should we have good relations with other countries"
Is probably someone you shouldn't be talking to.
These are also people who ask why we should have food stamps. Why should they pay taxes? If it doesn't benefit them directly then there's no point in their minds. They buy the lie that a man can be independent of any of his fellow humans.
You missed the intent of the comment. People who are sarcastically asking this are acting in bad faith anyway. They think America should be alone not just first. Conversations with them are useless
America First and Only.
Right. Wish they could see how far that would get them if it actually happened.
Two of Joseph Smith's brides (Helen Mar Kimball and Nancy Winchester) were 14 when the old fraud and perv married them. The former was 8 when she met him and the latter was 6 when she met him.
Joey came to a bad end, shot and killed in jail along with his brother Hiram by a mob. But he wasn't executed for child molestation. It was for destroying a printing press that had churned out news unflattering to him (polygamy and attempts to make himself king of a theocracy. He was also charged with treason for declaring martial law).
Only two ? What a show of restraint.
Well he wasn't a pedo. Hebephile, sure, but how was he supposed to show his virtue if he didn't have a metric shit ton of wives? Wait a second....
He had other teen brides. These were the two youngest.
He had wives in every age group, maybe he thought they were Pokemon? Gotta wed 'em all!
forgot the /s
Crap, I can't even remember the Mormon apologetics for this. Nice. One step closer to just forgetting all of that nonsense. *fist pump*
Their apologetics is that Joseph Smith only had the one wife. The bigamy was Brigham Young’s idea.
Remember that one guy who wrote the letter to the LDS church asking for clarification on all kinds of questions. He was still in good standing to get the answers but when they didn’t respond for a long while he eventually left. This was a story 8 or 10 years ago. One of his questions was why the folks not in the LDS church knew all about Joe’s wives but he and all of his church didnt.
Unfortunately for the Mor(m)ons, Smith's wives are all listed, along with their ages.
The Mormons acknowledged he had multiple wives a long time ago. I knew about it when I was a kid, learned it in Sunday school.
Yup, the CES letter. I have a pdf of it on my phone, I use it when I want my Mormon brother in law to go away. Heh.
Yep. Cause anything and everything is more important than wimmin and younguns.
because of coarse they are.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d93qd/moms-for-liberty-proud-boys
"Liberty." Another word reichwingers don't understand.
(BTW, when you were on your walk around Green Lake the other day, did notice whether or not Spud Fish and Chips was still still there in the original little googie building or did they move it to a mixed use unit yet?)
honestly never tried spuds fish and chips. maybe tomorrow will give it a try for lunch.
Good stuff. Big pieces of fish.
this does not fit my diet currently, but I do have a reason to celebrate.
Deep fried bad for you? Try the Salmon Cooker at Pier 57. Smoked halibut, cod and salmon fish and chips. And the "fries" are big jojos that are not deep fried.
I am still on a keto type diet. But the good news is lost about 60 pounds and no longer have pre diabetes.
it is still around. I had to google that one.
That's good. Been going to the 2-story one in Alki.
Christian clergy, who are normally obsessed about the sexual practices of others (gay people in particular), never seem to be able to control their own lusts. Especially when it comes to the underaged. Yet they continue to present themselves as moral whereas they condemn others as vile and hell-bound.
Wasn't it their savior that told these hypocrites to first remove the beam/log/plank from their own eyes before attempting to remove the mote/speck/splinter from the eyes of others?
They're quite happy sticking their logs into others. How can you expect them to stop?
Dude, these are American Christians (tm). They don't give a shit about what that dirty, socialist, hippie had to say. I mean hell, he was *Jewish* for Christ's sake.
Yeah! He’s oneathem that crucified Jesus, Christ.
At this point it wouldn't surprise me to hear MTG or one of them say something like that.
Not only that, but they simply refuse to condemn many of those predators. I can't understand the mentality – but then I really can't understand Christianity either.
Compare and contrast atheists condemning David Silverman for HIS actions.
Very different story.
Was he ever convicted of anything?
He was never even charged with anything.
There were allegations of financial and sexual misconduct but to the best of my knowledge nothing ever came of them.
Xtianity rose in a time of barbaric practices. Chopping off hands or feet for theft. Or death for adultery. Superstitious nonsense was rampant and controlled everything. Only kings and noblemen had any ability to read or write.
Oh, it was Jesus who said that ... and those clergy listen to it about as well as they listened to Matthew 6:5-6.
But then you already knew that, didn't you?
"But then you already knew that, didn't you?"
I think it was back on Ed Brayton's* blog where we were trying to find a secular phrase for "preaching to the choir". I don't think we came up with a good one, but it was a long time ago and I've... well, let's just say I've burned a few brains cells since then, if you know what I mean. 😏
*RIP Ed, you are missed. Dammit, he's not going to see this. Now I have a sad.