provide me a job and decent living in a blue state and I say this time we just let them go. In the 1860s they were a vital part of the economy. I don't think they are anymore.
The rest of the first amendment is also a part of the issue with requiring students to say the pledge as well. Requiring someone to say something they do not wish to, religious or otherwise, is unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law … or abridging the freedom of speech, …
Not sure even this court would go so far as to allow schools to compel student speech. Too many ways that can be used against conservativism. But, you never know with this group.
It's unconstitutional; it violates the First Amendment. Years ago I had a dust-up with my daughter's school after they sent me a letter notifying me that my daughter refused to stand and say the Pledge (I won). Years later, as an administrator in a charter school I ran into the same issue but they'd already done their research. It's fascinating that the right wing morons get away with this stuff while they knock themselves out opposing anything that would actually make a positive change in people;s lives.
Near as I can tell. the only parts of the Constitution they think still matter are the first amendment--for themselves only, of course-- and the second amendment--for any criminal, terrorist or psychopath who wants to take advantage of it.
I don't give a shit what they think. It's not up to them. Why are so many people afraid of these fuckwits? I'm not referring to you personally, but it's just ridiculous how easily they push our buttons.
Firstly, an obligatory reminder- from the Constitution- that "it isn't in the Constitution" is not a valid argument that a right doesn't exist, or that it may be infringed upon by the government:
Freedom from religion, also known as church/state separation, is one such right- but it may also be read as implicit in the protections of the First Amendment, since freedom of religion 𝘳𝘦𝘲𝘶𝘪𝘳𝘦𝘴 freedom from it. If one is free to believe in and practice a religion, that means one must be free to 𝘯𝘰𝘵 believe in or practice all of the others- and if one has the right to convert from one religion to another, then one has the freedom to 𝘯𝘰𝘵 believe in or practice that religion as well. Thus, in order for freedom 𝘰𝘧 religion to exist, freedom 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 religion is a prerequisite (atheists simply exercise said freedom against one more religion than everyone else does).
Secondly... the Pledge of Allegiance is a shitty fascist loyalty oath, and it is completely unnecessary and useless to any legitimate purpose of the state. Its existence, and the Republicans' insistence on forcing it upon the rest of us, are antithetical to the very notion of "liberty and justice for all."
I keep saying it: The United States should have done away with this useless relic of a loyalty oath ages ago. It belongs in an autocracy, not a constitutional republic and secular government.
An oath is useless on liars and frauds, ANYWAY, so why not just make it a signed contract, which is far more useful and will still scare compliance among The Sheeple, especially if you have enough lawyers there or cite enough laws that enforce it?
An oath is only really relevant around people who can't even write their name in the dirt with a stick.
COMPELLED speech? In a country that supposedly values and honors FREE SPEECH??? Congratulations, Arizona. Your legislature has well and truly jumped the shark on this one. What's next, morning prayers?
One can only hope that the governor will veto it, but I am not hopeful.
You have to cover Fajr, Dhuhr, and Asr, at a minimum and given the extended school day, although those might be an issue on the school bus to and from school, especially with aligning to the Kaaba on a great circle route, as is required.
Also need to include Maghrib and Isha for extracurricular activities, like those 'Murican Futball games.
I've reached a point in my life where I honestly see no reason to ever attempt to force anyone to repeat the Pledge of Allegiance, sing the National Anthem, or whatever other current group performance idiocy may be in vogue for the next 15 minutes.
Allow me to clarify. I do not think it a good idea to try and coerce/manipulate/force people into repeating something they may not, for whatever reason, believe in as though said repetition will fix anything. Let's be honest here: The vast majority of US citizens simply had the fortune of being born in this country. That's it. Sure, there are things that benefit everyone in the nation, but I can completely understand why someone might not want to pledge allegiance to a country that hasn't been looking out for their best interests over the long haul. I've had plenty of days myself when I've felt the same way, most notably when SCOTUS butchered RvW last year. I have to say, waking up one morning with less civil rights than I went to bed with was not a fun feeling.
Attempting to force this issue simply results in people lying about it. I've had more than enough lies to last me through the rest of my days, even if I were to somehow live to be 10,000,000 years old. I am not interested in trying to make people do bad performance theater as though it has meaning, and I am disappointed (but not terribly surprised) in my government for trying to do so. Don't we have real issues to address in the Arizona House? Because quite frankly, I can find PLENTY for you representatives to do if this is the sort of bill you're wasting time on.
We have no pledge and if you ask someone to sing/recite the national hymn, you will be lucky to have more than a couple of phrases. That must be why we are currently in a civil war 🙄
Even I know an entire first verse, in French, for other nation's anthem, too.
(Group of us used to stand up participate with the emigres in Casablanca (many of whom were actual refugees in real life) at the local 'golden oldies' cinema for the appointed scene. No Wacht Am Rhein, though.)
We've got Boston tonight. Hope the Kraken put on a better performance than they did against the lowly San Jose Sharks. At least we have one Seattle hockey team that is currently soaring at Number 1 in both the US Division and the Western Conference of the WHL. The aptly-named Thunderbirds (we even held the top spot in the entire league. Only Winnipeg is now slightly ahead).
Another dipshit state legislator wasting taxpayers' money on useless culture war legislation instead of addressing real problems that require facts, reason and compromise--all to which today's MAGA Republicans are impervious.
Well, the pols already have their vibrating La-Z-Boys and personal foot baths paid for out of public funds, so anything else wasted is just their way of showing how Small Gumming Is Gooder!
Well, that's what their self-serving lie-fest platforms are all really about, and that even excuses outright monetary fraud on a par with Predatory Christinanity.
Cool story...I actually have his personal phone number. Years ago, when he was opposing saying the pledge when his daughter was in school, he asked for volunteer teachers to help him with his lawsuit. I readily applied. One day my phone rang. "This is Michael Newdow," he said. I 'bout fainted! The man is a tazmanian devil, in a good way. :)
The much missed Ed Brayton (or Bratyon if you are Modus, whom I also miss) used to say that some of the dumbest people in America could be found amongst state legislators.
Shame he can't write a binding Executive Policy that rotates the God-of-the-Day through a selection that includes one who requires a blood sacrifice to make the prayer work.
That's after signing it into law with the entire GOP delegation invited to the signing ceremony ..., and the first blood sacrifice ...
Do they have foreign students in Arizona? Well I'm pretty sure they do because a school I was associated with had a relationship with a school in Tempe, and they swap students. With these foreign students be forced to commit treason by saying a pledge to the American state? Just askin'. 😎
There is a science fiction story that I read years ago about how some Native Americans go back in time a couple of hundred years before the European discovery of the Americas and handout knowledge of metallurgy another semi-modern technologies, to the point where around 1490 or so – a huge fleet of Native Americans arrives off the coast of Europe. Ominously.
Why would anyone want to invade Europe? They've been out of resources for centuries. That's why they came to steal the Americas and Australia out from under the previous inhabitants.
Good book out there on Primitive War. Some research may be a little dated, but a lot of the observations on the ability of the tribes to even function as a group for non-warfare reasons. Gatheres data for tribal organizations around the world and seems to show there just isn't the ingrained idea of cooperation much less having the organization and cohesion you need for real war above the "Boys Playing Deadly Games" level.
Another aspect, the AZ state party schools hiding as colleges and universities are 'in loco parentis' for a good many of the undergraduate students, too.
Do THEY require a pledge, because, well, they are ALSO in the bidness of good citizenship?!
Why do Rethuglikkkan lawmakers lie and intentionally violate the very Constitution they swore an oath support and defend? Are their promises as empty as they are?
Because there are no real life consequences for being frauds, like removal from office AND meaningful $$$$ fines for their malfeasance and waste of taxpayer money?
But, then again, how to you define 'malfeasance' for any politician when Santos is still a member of even the GOP congressional lynch mob?
"State Rep. Barbara Parker claimed the bill was legal because church/state separation wasn't in the Constitution."
You know what else isn't in the Constitution? The Pledge of Allegiance.
Cesession isn't banned in the constitution either. Yet MTG thinks red states can ceceed from the union. Good luck with that!
"MTG thinks" is a oxymoron. : )
As is she herself.
She's just a moron.
But she wastes a lot of oxy(gen)
provide me a job and decent living in a blue state and I say this time we just let them go. In the 1860s they were a vital part of the economy. I don't think they are anymore.
Her state tried that before and lost. Someone should probably let her know, since her US History is apparently lacking.
Forced speech is not free speech.
I’ll say it again…
Forced speech is not free speech.
The rest of the first amendment is also a part of the issue with requiring students to say the pledge as well. Requiring someone to say something they do not wish to, religious or otherwise, is unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law … or abridging the freedom of speech, …
Forced speech is not free speech.
Forced speech, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing.
"say it again…"
"Good God, y'all!"
I knowed you was a believer when I saw yore name. "Good God"? Hell-ya even capitalized god. GTF off this website-ya hear?
*rubs hands*
My scheme worked to perfection. Merely the first step in my plan to rule the world! For Jesus!
(strokes cat and laughs maniacally)
You have no imagination at all. Why it's always a cat ? What about hamsters or rabbits ?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/pets/farmer-discovers-pregnant-besties-a-barn-cat-and-a-rabbit-have-given-birth-at-the-same-time-in-the-same-place-lets-them-raise-their-families-together/ar-AA17OSHg?ocid=windirect
Bond supervillain affectation.
"Who would ever want to be king?" - Coldplay
Tears for Fears sang "Everybody Wants to Rule the World."
Every time I hear it, I think: "Not me."
Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose ...
... despite the color of your nose.
-- Og, the Leprechaun
https://www.gocomics.com/roseisrose/2023/02/23
And forced patriotism is NOT patriotism. It is INTIMIDATION, plain and simple.
It's Nationalism. Very different from patriotism.
We saw Nationalism on the march in Germany during the '30s and '40s. We know what it led to.
And too often it borders on if not equates with jingoism ... and these days, I'd say, more often than not.
Led to the Second Reich, which was far longer and more successful until Willie broke it.
They just can't have nice things?
Once again, a republican works pretty hard to demonstrate they're impervious to facts.
Pervious to conspiracy scenarios*.
*I would have said "theories", but some republicans want those** banned, too.
**Not conspiracy theories, just scientific theories.
"Separation of church and state emerges from the First Amendment and has repeatedly been interpreted that way by the courts."
The courts. Uh-oh.
Not sure even this court would go so far as to allow schools to compel student speech. Too many ways that can be used against conservativism. But, you never know with this group.
It's unconstitutional; it violates the First Amendment. Years ago I had a dust-up with my daughter's school after they sent me a letter notifying me that my daughter refused to stand and say the Pledge (I won). Years later, as an administrator in a charter school I ran into the same issue but they'd already done their research. It's fascinating that the right wing morons get away with this stuff while they knock themselves out opposing anything that would actually make a positive change in people;s lives.
Collective insanity.
Near as I can tell. the only parts of the Constitution they think still matter are the first amendment--for themselves only, of course-- and the second amendment--for any criminal, terrorist or psychopath who wants to take advantage of it.
I don't give a shit what they think. It's not up to them. Why are so many people afraid of these fuckwits? I'm not referring to you personally, but it's just ridiculous how easily they push our buttons.
Unfortunately, with SCOTUS stacked with their minions it IS up to them, at least for now.
Firstly, an obligatory reminder- from the Constitution- that "it isn't in the Constitution" is not a valid argument that a right doesn't exist, or that it may be infringed upon by the government:
"𝑨𝒎𝒆𝒏𝒅𝒎𝒆𝒏𝒕 𝑰𝑿- 𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝒆𝒏𝒖𝒎𝒆𝒓𝒂𝒕𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝒊𝒏 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑪𝒐𝒏𝒔𝒕𝒊𝒕𝒖𝒕𝒊𝒐𝒏, 𝒐𝒇 𝒄𝒆𝒓𝒕𝒂𝒊𝒏 𝒓𝒊𝒈𝒉𝒕𝒔, 𝒔𝒉𝒂𝒍𝒍 𝒏𝒐𝒕 𝒃𝒆 𝒄𝒐𝒏𝒔𝒕𝒓𝒖𝒆𝒅 𝒕𝒐 𝒅𝒆𝒏𝒚 𝒐𝒓 𝒅𝒊𝒔𝒑𝒂𝒓𝒂𝒈𝒆 𝒐𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒓𝒔 𝒓𝒆𝒕𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒆𝒅 𝒃𝒚 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒑𝒆𝒐𝒑𝒍𝒆."
Freedom from religion, also known as church/state separation, is one such right- but it may also be read as implicit in the protections of the First Amendment, since freedom of religion 𝘳𝘦𝘲𝘶𝘪𝘳𝘦𝘴 freedom from it. If one is free to believe in and practice a religion, that means one must be free to 𝘯𝘰𝘵 believe in or practice all of the others- and if one has the right to convert from one religion to another, then one has the freedom to 𝘯𝘰𝘵 believe in or practice that religion as well. Thus, in order for freedom 𝘰𝘧 religion to exist, freedom 𝘧𝘳𝘰𝘮 religion is a prerequisite (atheists simply exercise said freedom against one more religion than everyone else does).
Secondly... the Pledge of Allegiance is a shitty fascist loyalty oath, and it is completely unnecessary and useless to any legitimate purpose of the state. Its existence, and the Republicans' insistence on forcing it upon the rest of us, are antithetical to the very notion of "liberty and justice for all."
𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰 𝘴𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘴 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥𝘰𝘮 𝘰𝘧 𝘤𝘩𝘰𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘶𝘯𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘰 𝘳𝘦𝘧𝘶𝘴𝘦.
-- David Hume
I keep saying it: The United States should have done away with this useless relic of a loyalty oath ages ago. It belongs in an autocracy, not a constitutional republic and secular government.
An oath is useless on liars and frauds, ANYWAY, so why not just make it a signed contract, which is far more useful and will still scare compliance among The Sheeple, especially if you have enough lawyers there or cite enough laws that enforce it?
An oath is only really relevant around people who can't even write their name in the dirt with a stick.
I actually did sign such a contract when I enlisted in the Air Force.
Still had to hold up my hand and swear an oath, and was the 'oath giver' so several friends later on as a result of their promotions.
I did the hold up my hand/swear an oath thing twice: Once upon enlistment and again before I was shipped to a combat zone for a year.
The second time, I thought: Didn't I already do this?
People change, especially the second time around.
I *affirmed* my oath many times...no gods or other magical critters involved.
Army doesn't require any woo if one isn't interested.
Ditto. No mention of space faeries when I took the oath.
Will it be specifically required for joining the Space Force?
COMPELLED speech? In a country that supposedly values and honors FREE SPEECH??? Congratulations, Arizona. Your legislature has well and truly jumped the shark on this one. What's next, morning prayers?
One can only hope that the governor will veto it, but I am not hopeful.
C'mon now, you're more precise than that.
You need to do ALL the prayers.
You have to cover Fajr, Dhuhr, and Asr, at a minimum and given the extended school day, although those might be an issue on the school bus to and from school, especially with aligning to the Kaaba on a great circle route, as is required.
Also need to include Maghrib and Isha for extracurricular activities, like those 'Murican Futball games.
All five for school trips, too!
Bring back Moloch! Let us roll babies down its flaming maw again!
Buffy would just kick his ass again.
Buffy's chasing werewolves now.
https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/sarah-michelle-gellar-wolf-pack-supernatual-return/
She was always good at multi-tasking.
I've reached a point in my life where I honestly see no reason to ever attempt to force anyone to repeat the Pledge of Allegiance, sing the National Anthem, or whatever other current group performance idiocy may be in vogue for the next 15 minutes.
Allow me to clarify. I do not think it a good idea to try and coerce/manipulate/force people into repeating something they may not, for whatever reason, believe in as though said repetition will fix anything. Let's be honest here: The vast majority of US citizens simply had the fortune of being born in this country. That's it. Sure, there are things that benefit everyone in the nation, but I can completely understand why someone might not want to pledge allegiance to a country that hasn't been looking out for their best interests over the long haul. I've had plenty of days myself when I've felt the same way, most notably when SCOTUS butchered RvW last year. I have to say, waking up one morning with less civil rights than I went to bed with was not a fun feeling.
Attempting to force this issue simply results in people lying about it. I've had more than enough lies to last me through the rest of my days, even if I were to somehow live to be 10,000,000 years old. I am not interested in trying to make people do bad performance theater as though it has meaning, and I am disappointed (but not terribly surprised) in my government for trying to do so. Don't we have real issues to address in the Arizona House? Because quite frankly, I can find PLENTY for you representatives to do if this is the sort of bill you're wasting time on.
We have no pledge and if you ask someone to sing/recite the national hymn, you will be lucky to have more than a couple of phrases. That must be why we are currently in a civil war 🙄
Even I know an entire first verse, in French, for other nation's anthem, too.
(Group of us used to stand up participate with the emigres in Casablanca (many of whom were actual refugees in real life) at the local 'golden oldies' cinema for the appointed scene. No Wacht Am Rhein, though.)
Allons enfant de la patrie ...
That is all I've got.
At least you have a national anthem worth singing. The NZ national anthem is just ... Rubbish.
It's about the civil war following the French Revolution...
I know all the lyrics to "O Canada" and can sing that song.
(I know. National anthems aren't the same as "Pledges") :)
I only needed to know God Bless "Murica for the local pro team.
If you were a real hockey fan, you'd know it in French too, for Les Habitants opening ceremonies.
I never get the chance to practice the French lyrics. They never play them at the cross-border hockey games I attend.
Came across this, I'm sure you've seen it but it's pretty cool.
https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/35711900/seattle-kraken-select-muckleshoot-indian-tribe-jersey-patch
That was in my newspaper this morning.
We've got Boston tonight. Hope the Kraken put on a better performance than they did against the lowly San Jose Sharks. At least we have one Seattle hockey team that is currently soaring at Number 1 in both the US Division and the Western Conference of the WHL. The aptly-named Thunderbirds (we even held the top spot in the entire league. Only Winnipeg is now slightly ahead).
HEY! Watch what you say about my lowly Sharkies!
At least your team is still competitive. The Penguins have been dropping like a rock lately.
Another dipshit state legislator wasting taxpayers' money on useless culture war legislation instead of addressing real problems that require facts, reason and compromise--all to which today's MAGA Republicans are impervious.
Well, the pols already have their vibrating La-Z-Boys and personal foot baths paid for out of public funds, so anything else wasted is just their way of showing how Small Gumming Is Gooder!
Well, that's what their self-serving lie-fest platforms are all really about, and that even excuses outright monetary fraud on a par with Predatory Christinanity.
Where's Michael Newdow when you need him?
The last I knew, he was still at it, trying to remove “In God We Trust” from US currency. Honestly, I'm not certain there's any quit in the man.
There isn't.
Cool story...I actually have his personal phone number. Years ago, when he was opposing saying the pledge when his daughter was in school, he asked for volunteer teachers to help him with his lawsuit. I readily applied. One day my phone rang. "This is Michael Newdow," he said. I 'bout fainted! The man is a tazmanian devil, in a good way. :)
The much missed Ed Brayton (or Bratyon if you are Modus, whom I also miss) used to say that some of the dumbest people in America could be found amongst state legislators.
The "cream" rises to the top.
So do pond scum and bloated corpses.
Thankfully, republicans do not have a supermajority in the legislature so if this were to pass, Governor Hobbs can veto this batshit crazy bill.
Shame he can't write a binding Executive Policy that rotates the God-of-the-Day through a selection that includes one who requires a blood sacrifice to make the prayer work.
That's after signing it into law with the entire GOP delegation invited to the signing ceremony ..., and the first blood sacrifice ...
Do they have foreign students in Arizona? Well I'm pretty sure they do because a school I was associated with had a relationship with a school in Tempe, and they swap students. With these foreign students be forced to commit treason by saying a pledge to the American state? Just askin'. 😎
How else would they learn that America is the Land of the Free?
Gettin' rid of them there furners is next. MAGA!!!!!
NATIVE AMERICANS: "Yes, let's talk about removing foreigners from this land."
In hindsight, I'm sure the east coast tribes wish they had put aside their differences and formed one nation and one fighting force.
There is a science fiction story that I read years ago about how some Native Americans go back in time a couple of hundred years before the European discovery of the Americas and handout knowledge of metallurgy another semi-modern technologies, to the point where around 1490 or so – a huge fleet of Native Americans arrives off the coast of Europe. Ominously.
Why would anyone want to invade Europe? They've been out of resources for centuries. That's why they came to steal the Americas and Australia out from under the previous inhabitants.
I think the point of the story was – as a precaution.
Ahem, and the sub-continent, which was the BIGGEST asset they had.
Good book out there on Primitive War. Some research may be a little dated, but a lot of the observations on the ability of the tribes to even function as a group for non-warfare reasons. Gatheres data for tribal organizations around the world and seems to show there just isn't the ingrained idea of cooperation much less having the organization and cohesion you need for real war above the "Boys Playing Deadly Games" level.
https://www.amazon.com/Primitive-war-Its-practice-concepts/dp/B0007ECP0C#customerReviews
Well, inverted black triangles were more....'disposable', as it were.
Another aspect, the AZ state party schools hiding as colleges and universities are 'in loco parentis' for a good many of the undergraduate students, too.
Do THEY require a pledge, because, well, they are ALSO in the bidness of good citizenship?!
Wonder why they DON'T?
Why do Rethuglikkkan lawmakers lie and intentionally violate the very Constitution they swore an oath support and defend? Are their promises as empty as they are?
I know. Silly question.
The same reason they have to repeat a loyalty oath everyday. They don't consider an oath valid if it was said yesterday.
Because there are no real life consequences for being frauds, like removal from office AND meaningful $$$$ fines for their malfeasance and waste of taxpayer money?
But, then again, how to you define 'malfeasance' for any politician when Santos is still a member of even the GOP congressional lynch mob?