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Joan the Dork's avatar

Ritualistic loyalty pledges to symbols of state have no place in a free, democratic society; the practice should be done away with entirely. It has clearly done harm, not just to individuals like this student, but to the country as a whole. Too bad conservatives- and I don't just mean Republicans- will never go for that; they place too high a value on performative displays of 'patriotism' rather than the more difficult (and substantial) work of actually advancing the ideals of liberty and justice for all.

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beads's avatar

Ritualistic loyalty oaths are fine. I recited one when I swore into the Navy. It is the forcing that is the problem. I chose to swear that oath, while at the same time not reciting or participating in the Pledge.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

That one teacher was allowed to trample on her constitutional rights because he served in the military.

Uh, no. He should have been the first to protect her rights because he served in the military and sacrificed for her to have them. If it were my child I would have come in every damned day in my best uniform and sat with her making sure he understood what I meant by it. You don’t get to deny others rights because you served in the military.

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beads's avatar

I agree. I definitely served with the intention of protection. My mind is boggled by vets who support trump or republicans, because they quite obviously are intent on removing rights.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

It seems they served with the intent on preserving their superiority rather than everyone’s constitutional rights. But I’m assuming malice, which I may have justification for in many instances. Some might only be ignorant of the consequences of their thinking.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

An oath sworn for a purpose is quite a different thing.

There is value in that- because there are consequences for breaking it, and the oath itself is an acknowledgement of those consequences. Hence, the crime of perjury- lying under oath. I'm sure the UCMJ has some very specific things to say about violating the oath of service, as well. Just as there are *theoretically* consequences for a politician violating an oath of office (although we've been quite lax in enforcing those). These are better understood as *procedures* than rituals. A checklist item to be ticked off before a person is handed some great responsibility- like an airline pilot requesting clearance from the tower before takeoff.

But the Pledge of Allegiance is not like these above. It is a meaningless thing. It consists of buzzwords that tug on the heartstrings, but which are empty of context or substance. It is a recital of words in service to nothing besides the aim of drumming a mindless obedience into those reciting it. It is not aimed at holding a person accountable for their words and actions, but at holding them subservient to the state and its symbols.

That's the difference. The oath a witness on the stand takes to tell the truth has value to the society it serves, and to preserving *liberty and justice* within it- a pledge to bow down before a flag does not.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

“That same judge, however, later lamented, “we increasingly live in a country that does not value freedom.” “

How does forcing school children to recite nonsense like this celebrate freedom? Silencing people is an assault on freedom of speech, but forcing people to say what you want them to is the same thing.

I lament that this country does not value freedom, but I see that it never really has, at least not for everyone.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

The irony of making a loyalty oath compulsory in order to celebrate freedom is thick. But then, so are conservatives' skulls.

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Boreal's avatar

It's the same freedom that North Koreans have. It's why trump and republicans are BFFs with Kim jong.

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Boreal's avatar

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943) renders the Texas law invalid.

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larry parker's avatar

Welcome to the party!

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Boreal's avatar

Thanks. How long is it open bar?

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larry parker's avatar

Until you run out. : )

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wreck's avatar

Free comments! Happy Holidays!

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User's avatar
Comment deleted
Dec 17, 2021
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Chezzy's avatar

Texas law written by white supremacy leaders and child molestors.

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GrandmascienCe's avatar

Mari should've written down the pledge like she was assigned...the *original* pledge, as written by Francis Bellamy: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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Chezzy's avatar

As long as it does not include that fake god all these dumbass religions talk about.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

OT - So sad. 😢

Josh Duggar forbidden from conjugal visits with wife Anna in prison as he faces 40 years for child pornography charges

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tv/17065036/josh-duggar-forbidden-conjugal-visits-anna-prison/

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larry parker's avatar

That applies to all prisoners in Federal prisons.

Clickbait headline from a tabloid.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

So sad as you said, he won't be able to break his father record.

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Lee's avatar

The Pledge of Allegiance is fundamentally wrong. As a teacher during the Vietnam War, I would stand, but refused to state what wasn't true for all Americans. And I am old enough to remember when "under God" was added. Francis Bellamy, the author of the pledge, fought against its inclusion. Neither the Pledge nor its addition is appropriate. It's just a meaningless ritual that most people ignore.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

OT - Largo Capitol rioter sentenced to more than 5 years, toughest sentence yet

https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2021/12/17/largo-capitol-rioter-sentenced-to-more-than-5-years-toughest-sentence-yet/

And for some fucked up reason, I can only type one letter in the comment box, and then nothing. I have to type in notepad and then copy & paste. WTF‽‽‽

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Consequences for the doers are good.

Consequences for the *instigators* would be better.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I can type just fine on my tablet.

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larry parker's avatar

Devine punishment? Have you pissed off any gods recently?

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

All of them, I hope.

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1000th Monkey's avatar

I recall listening to a series of podcasts not too long ago (2019) all about the origins of the Pledge of Allegiance. Really well done, the series is titled

“The Supreme Court vs. Church/State Separation”.

Worth digging up, wherever podcasts live.



It was by some guy named Hemant…

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larry parker's avatar

I thought his name was Herman. ; )

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RegularJoe's avatar

"That same judge, however, later lamented, “we increasingly live in a country that does not value freedom.” Which makes it sound like he hates what Oliver did but can’t find a legal justification to protect Arnold."

Without context to the contrary, I can easily see the judge's lamentation to be referring to Oliver's freedom of speech (to not participate in the Pledge).

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Guerilla Surgeon's avatar

Okay, something weird – my post appeared twice I tried to delete one of them and both of them went. But even so – I was just wondering if anyone else aside from dictatorships forced people to take an oath of loyalty. I guess it was maybe necessary when the US was a very young country, but you'd think it wouldn't be now.

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