As 64 year old former Catholic I was not contacted to participate in this survey.
I began drifting away from my strict Catholic upbringing in young adulthood. The final nail in the proverbial coffin was when I attended my very religious nieces church wedding about 10 years ago. In the wedding program on the inside was a statement that said something like, "If you are not in a state of grace with God please do not join in the communion procession."
That was that. I only set foot in a church two more times since, for two other weddings. I never left my seat except to leave.
Now, my only connection to religion is observing my ridiculously hypocritical family members supporting the hateful and deadly trump regime. Sheer insanity.
I have never once felt welcome in a Catholic church as that is exactly the message sent when you are a visitor. I’ve attended a few baptisms and such and always left pissed off. I decided I would never set foot in any church again for any reason.
All my failures are my own fault, and I deserved all the bad things that happened to me.
God's unconditional love is earned, which I never could.
Becoming a christian at 12 and combining these lessons with normal teenage angst proved detrimental to my mental health and development as a person. It took a couple of decades to begin to escape.
I am so dog damn Protestant. During my days of theism, as an ordained United Methodist minister, I did hundreds of weddings in all kinds of settings. But not once in 35 years, was I ever asked to serve communion! The rites and sacraments of the church are the last thing on couples' minds in our low church tradition.
Sadly, old-timey Catholicism as practiced by some of our (US) Opus Dei fossils, is all about exclusionism: LGBTQ+, women, but it's okay to molest children, we'll just move the molesters. etc.
Yes. My parents and their prayer group friends were also friendly with a local priest in the 1970s who was eventually implicated in sex abuse a few years later. They just never seemd distressed about it. Ugh
Perhaps "satan", who fits the bible's description of Abraham's "god" quite well, or Loki. "...the cunning trickster god from Norse mythology, known as the "God of Mischief," who is the blood-brother of Odin and companion to Thor, often causing chaos but also helping the gods. He's a shapeshifter, son of giants (Fárbauti and Laufey), and father to monstrous beings like Fenrir (wolf) and Jörmungandr (world serpent). He's also a popular character in Marvel Comics and the Disney+ series, where he's depicted as Thor's adopted, mischievous brother, exploring time and alternate realities. " - from Google AI
The decline in religiosity among the general population is almost certainly one of the driving factors behind the religious right's all-out attempt to establish one-party rule and, with it, theocracy. They know they need authoritarianism to keep their superstition- and the power it feeds them- on life support for a few generations longer.
Looking at the inverse correlation of religiosity with age, reminds me Planck's principle, "Science progresses one funeral at a time". Scientific theories are not falsified, it's just that proponents of older theories die off, taking the theories with them.
OT: I came here to share some memes, which I can’t find now, about Somalis trolling MAGAts. Referring to Minnesota as “the ancestral homeland” and saying God promised them Minnesota 3000 years ago. Naturally, some MAGAts fail to get the joke and are accusing Somalis of being low IQ.
The problem of every way of thinking on the far right, and perhaps to a lesser extent, to the far left, is that it begins to be impossible to distinguish satire from reality.. There is no theory or position so radical that somebody will not advocate for it, and think that they are justified. That's how we ended up where we are right now.
"That says a lot about the problems with conservative Christianity. If they can’t gain new converts at a time when they have disproportionate political power, unprecedented legal favoritism, and unbroken cultural visibility, then they have no hope. We know Americans can be duped into voting against their best interests, but the culture war bullshit eventually wears thin. And the longer conservative Christians align with cruelty, exclusion, and authoritarianism, the harder they’ll have to work to convince anyone they’re part of a club worth joining."
"And the longer conservative Christians align with cruelty, exclusion, and authoritarianism, the harder they’ll have to work to convince anyone they’re part of a club worth joining."
Which is one of the many explanations to why creationist "museums" and "parks" are poorly attended to and why creationist literature and media poorly sell in the market.
That’s why they’re so desperate to shove it into schools. Need to get to the kids before they learn to recognize how ridiculously moronic the stories are.
IMO creationists have identified their niche 'evangelical/deluded' market and actually do quite well selling their 'product' to this audience--which is why they're still in business. Same reason uber-Christians (including Catlicks) have such an outsized amount of power despite their relatively low numbers. There is no shortage of culture warriors, a.ka. suckers (with apologies to P.T. Barnum).
Those headlines were absolutely written with the idea of how to lie with statistics. There is a book I read, I’ve mentioned it before during the decade or so I’ve been with you all, that explains how people use statistics, graphs and charts to manipulate reality. The revival they see is some misleading extract from a study or graph that shows an uptick in church attendance or baptisms or something. Maybe it was only in a small area, or one month or something specific. Maybe young men did decide to go to church because Russel Brand found Jesus, now Joe Rogan did too, and they jumped on the bandwagon but quickly realized that the church was too much effort for the unrealistic promise of getting the control they are missing, so they leave quickly too. Maybe they realized that Brand was only using religion to buffer his despicable behavior (which makes me question what Rogan is hiding) and not because he really believes. The media picks up the influx of disaffected young men, but doesn’t bother to follow up a year later. The reality is as reported here, stagnation, sorry holding steady for now. Looking at the graphs over long periods show the trends with a smooth line, but when you zoom in on shorter time frames you will see plateaus, ups and downs, that is what we see now, a zoomed in picture of a smoother decline.
But now there are folks who benefit from saying there’s a revival, trying to manufacture a trend to see if it will inspire folks to jump on a bandwagon. It might have worked in the past, but it doesn’t seem to be working now. It could if they keep pushing, but Trump and the Heritage Foundation are undermining the whole plan.
I think there is a danger in looking at a short period of time here. Trends have their ups and downs, but as Hemant said the overall trend is down and that's a good thing. I think one thing that might accelerate the downward trend would be to give Americans more certainty in their lives - it's a case for workplace legislation, trade unions, and free or subsidised medical care. I'm pretty sure that's what accelerated the decline in Europe. Where is everybody by the way?
"I think there is a danger in looking at a short period of time here. "
This quotation from Ernest Hemingway applies:
“How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked.
“Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”
I don't know whether the same applies in the US as the UK. The parishioners are responsible for the funding of the church buildings. This is fine, so long as there are enough parishioners to supply funding. However, as Mr. Micawber (from Dickens, "David Copperfield") says, "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
As older members die off and nobody replaces them, then the church ceases to be viable. What happens then, is that churches amalgamate. In my local area, Aberfeldy, Dull and Weem, Grantully, Logierait and Strathtay churches rotate services between them. Each church may get a service a month.
Human trends are rarely as simple as upward or downward in direction. Certainly, the movement was largely downward until about three years ago, and for myself, I put that down to the influence of people like Trump, Charlie Kirk, and those like them. Still, the wheels are beginning to come off the Trump train, and I suspect that, eventually, the kinds of attitudes represented by Kirk and his ilk will come under sufficient scrutiny to create issue for them as well.
Give it time. I fully expect the downward slide to restart, possibly as soon as the midterms.
"Still, the wheels are beginning to come off the Trump train"
Personally, I have to wonder whether it is a last hurrah, that the more moderate churches are fading away, leaving those led by people like Doug Wilson. They may have money and power, but given the vileness of their message, and the indifference of the young to sexuality or ethnicity one can hope for a turning away.
Same here Troublesh00ter. People don’t go from atheist to belief….ever. If they say they have…it’s a lie. One doesn’t see the truth, then decide to take the false belief as a better option.
What don't you understand in "I was raised SECULAR" ? I never went to catechism or learned anything about christianity except it's whitewashed spreading in Europe and in the world in history classes. My schools were all religion free public schools. Unlike the US, some countries know the definition of secular. You should try to learn about them one of these days instead of blabbering about what you know nothing about.
Don't bother to answer. I will block you. I have an allergy to pretentious pedants who believe their way is the only one worth following, religious or not.
"Same here Troublesh00ter. People don’t go from atheist to belief….ever."
One of the older "British Social Attitudes" surveys looked at movements between belief to non-belief and vice versa.
I can't find the survey, so you these are from memory and may not be the exact values from the survey. For Church of England members, for those raised in the CofE the movement to non-belief was about 45%. For Catholics, the movement was on the order of 30%. For non-belief to belief, the rate was about 4%.
Authoritarian movements always lie about religious numbers. Inflating belief, exaggerating dominance, or claiming moral consensus is how they manufacture legitimacy. If they can convince people that “most believe this,” they can justify control in the name of a false mandate.
I don’t understand how anyone can actually believe religious stories as literal. We live in a time when we know the earth has existed for billions of years and humans, in some form, for millions. When I was younger, I thought adults understood bible stories as fables, just tales used to impart a lesson. I did not realize many people believed it as a child believes in Santa and the North Pole. When I was told/realized Santa was a myth, I assumed all the god and heaven stuff was too.
Less than 1/3 of the world population is christian, but some act like “everyone” is or “should” be.
Even here in the heart of the Bible Belt most of the people publicly proclaiming their alignment with the current administration and professing their strong "Christian" faith don't attend any church regularly. When they do attend, to be sure it's the Evangelical Mega-Hate Circuses they haul their oversized pick-up trucks with giant flag decals to, packing their unvaccinated children into the cabs for their quarterly indoctrination against the actual message of the Jesus they claim to be follow. It's unfortunate I guess that it's only a matter of time before one of these major holiday trips to the God Mall results in a new measles outbreak. It's not their children's fault, but these people are so deluded and selfish it's not going to matter.
Is the downward trend truly leveling off? Or is it just the normal statistical ups and downs in the short term?
I think it's the latter, similar to those decades long downward trend of violent crime. Although correlation dos not equal causation, the two trends seem to share this: desperate people are more likely to be religious, and more likely to be violent. Most of us here who are non-religious are also more likely to be nonviolent and more willing to help others.
What I see is serious growth in Christian Nationalist churches throughout Ohio in semi-rural towns. They are targeting children through LifeWise Academy and on-site inside playgrounds. And they are well-funded by wealthy businessmen and local charitable foundations. I’m not getting complacent, one of these churches has a stranglehold on my hometown and are gaining ground.
Ah, but the C of E is one of those wishy-washy Anglican type churches without the fire and brimstone. For a long time it was these mainstream churches losing parishioners who were going to more fundamentalist/evangelical churches. Now at least they're dropping out altogether, if not becoming atheists.
It's been noted many, many times that religion is often the best long-term con around. "God says so!" covers a terrifying amount of 'sin' after all, and forgiveness is a requirement.
As 64 year old former Catholic I was not contacted to participate in this survey.
I began drifting away from my strict Catholic upbringing in young adulthood. The final nail in the proverbial coffin was when I attended my very religious nieces church wedding about 10 years ago. In the wedding program on the inside was a statement that said something like, "If you are not in a state of grace with God please do not join in the communion procession."
That was that. I only set foot in a church two more times since, for two other weddings. I never left my seat except to leave.
Now, my only connection to religion is observing my ridiculously hypocritical family members supporting the hateful and deadly trump regime. Sheer insanity.
I am 81, and was a "victim" of Catholicism until I was 20. NO MORE, or ever again. Religion is the scourge off the earth.
I have never once felt welcome in a Catholic church as that is exactly the message sent when you are a visitor. I’ve attended a few baptisms and such and always left pissed off. I decided I would never set foot in any church again for any reason.
Baptist here.
I learned that I am worthless without god.
All my accomplishments are only because of god.
All my failures are my own fault, and I deserved all the bad things that happened to me.
God's unconditional love is earned, which I never could.
Becoming a christian at 12 and combining these lessons with normal teenage angst proved detrimental to my mental health and development as a person. It took a couple of decades to begin to escape.
I am so dog damn Protestant. During my days of theism, as an ordained United Methodist minister, I did hundreds of weddings in all kinds of settings. But not once in 35 years, was I ever asked to serve communion! The rites and sacraments of the church are the last thing on couples' minds in our low church tradition.
Sadly, old-timey Catholicism as practiced by some of our (US) Opus Dei fossils, is all about exclusionism: LGBTQ+, women, but it's okay to molest children, we'll just move the molesters. etc.
Yes. My parents and their prayer group friends were also friendly with a local priest in the 1970s who was eventually implicated in sex abuse a few years later. They just never seemd distressed about it. Ugh
As an ex-conservative Lutheran, with denominational leadership, not just the lay, going down the politicization road, I got it.
You know who could stop the downward trend? An omnipotent god.
Odin? No way...he doesn't give a crap.
For what I know of Odin, he had a lot more sense in his head than Yahweh ever had!
Also never impregnated any virgins that I can recall.
Every time you type Yahweh I wanna tell you to cover your mouth when you yawn.
😝😝😝😁😁😁
Perhaps "satan", who fits the bible's description of Abraham's "god" quite well, or Loki. "...the cunning trickster god from Norse mythology, known as the "God of Mischief," who is the blood-brother of Odin and companion to Thor, often causing chaos but also helping the gods. He's a shapeshifter, son of giants (Fárbauti and Laufey), and father to monstrous beings like Fenrir (wolf) and Jörmungandr (world serpent). He's also a popular character in Marvel Comics and the Disney+ series, where he's depicted as Thor's adopted, mischievous brother, exploring time and alternate realities. " - from Google AI
The decline in religiosity among the general population is almost certainly one of the driving factors behind the religious right's all-out attempt to establish one-party rule and, with it, theocracy. They know they need authoritarianism to keep their superstition- and the power it feeds them- on life support for a few generations longer.
Their god is SO all-powerful people have to be made to worship and obey him by force. That makes sense, right?
Looking at the inverse correlation of religiosity with age, reminds me Planck's principle, "Science progresses one funeral at a time". Scientific theories are not falsified, it's just that proponents of older theories die off, taking the theories with them.
I love that principle. “Science advances one funeral* at a time.”
*might be death rather than funeral.
That gets a WOW from me!
OT: I came here to share some memes, which I can’t find now, about Somalis trolling MAGAts. Referring to Minnesota as “the ancestral homeland” and saying God promised them Minnesota 3000 years ago. Naturally, some MAGAts fail to get the joke and are accusing Somalis of being low IQ.
The problem of every way of thinking on the far right, and perhaps to a lesser extent, to the far left, is that it begins to be impossible to distinguish satire from reality.. There is no theory or position so radical that somebody will not advocate for it, and think that they are justified. That's how we ended up where we are right now.
I'd say pot/kettle but that might be a bit on the nose.
I've been hearing about these and I want to see them too!
Superb analysis once again, Hemant!
"That says a lot about the problems with conservative Christianity. If they can’t gain new converts at a time when they have disproportionate political power, unprecedented legal favoritism, and unbroken cultural visibility, then they have no hope. We know Americans can be duped into voting against their best interests, but the culture war bullshit eventually wears thin. And the longer conservative Christians align with cruelty, exclusion, and authoritarianism, the harder they’ll have to work to convince anyone they’re part of a club worth joining."
"And the longer conservative Christians align with cruelty, exclusion, and authoritarianism, the harder they’ll have to work to convince anyone they’re part of a club worth joining."
Which is one of the many explanations to why creationist "museums" and "parks" are poorly attended to and why creationist literature and media poorly sell in the market.
That’s why they’re so desperate to shove it into schools. Need to get to the kids before they learn to recognize how ridiculously moronic the stories are.
IMO creationists have identified their niche 'evangelical/deluded' market and actually do quite well selling their 'product' to this audience--which is why they're still in business. Same reason uber-Christians (including Catlicks) have such an outsized amount of power despite their relatively low numbers. There is no shortage of culture warriors, a.ka. suckers (with apologies to P.T. Barnum).
Those headlines were absolutely written with the idea of how to lie with statistics. There is a book I read, I’ve mentioned it before during the decade or so I’ve been with you all, that explains how people use statistics, graphs and charts to manipulate reality. The revival they see is some misleading extract from a study or graph that shows an uptick in church attendance or baptisms or something. Maybe it was only in a small area, or one month or something specific. Maybe young men did decide to go to church because Russel Brand found Jesus, now Joe Rogan did too, and they jumped on the bandwagon but quickly realized that the church was too much effort for the unrealistic promise of getting the control they are missing, so they leave quickly too. Maybe they realized that Brand was only using religion to buffer his despicable behavior (which makes me question what Rogan is hiding) and not because he really believes. The media picks up the influx of disaffected young men, but doesn’t bother to follow up a year later. The reality is as reported here, stagnation, sorry holding steady for now. Looking at the graphs over long periods show the trends with a smooth line, but when you zoom in on shorter time frames you will see plateaus, ups and downs, that is what we see now, a zoomed in picture of a smoother decline.
But now there are folks who benefit from saying there’s a revival, trying to manufacture a trend to see if it will inspire folks to jump on a bandwagon. It might have worked in the past, but it doesn’t seem to be working now. It could if they keep pushing, but Trump and the Heritage Foundation are undermining the whole plan.
Exactly what I was trying to say, except that you actually said it. I promise I won't sue for nonexistent plagiarism.
You should, and ask to be compensated with coffee.
Or Ice Cream Cake from Dairy Queen.
It has already worked. I have coffee right now!
I think there is a danger in looking at a short period of time here. Trends have their ups and downs, but as Hemant said the overall trend is down and that's a good thing. I think one thing that might accelerate the downward trend would be to give Americans more certainty in their lives - it's a case for workplace legislation, trade unions, and free or subsidised medical care. I'm pretty sure that's what accelerated the decline in Europe. Where is everybody by the way?
Church. They're all in church, eating the potluck garbage.
"I think there is a danger in looking at a short period of time here. "
This quotation from Ernest Hemingway applies:
“How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked.
“Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”
I don't know whether the same applies in the US as the UK. The parishioners are responsible for the funding of the church buildings. This is fine, so long as there are enough parishioners to supply funding. However, as Mr. Micawber (from Dickens, "David Copperfield") says, "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
As older members die off and nobody replaces them, then the church ceases to be viable. What happens then, is that churches amalgamate. In my local area, Aberfeldy, Dull and Weem, Grantully, Logierait and Strathtay churches rotate services between them. Each church may get a service a month.
Eventually though, there ceases to be monies to maintain all the buildings, want to buy a church? https://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/about-us/departments/property-and-church-buildings/properties-for-sale?property_type=15794
Human trends are rarely as simple as upward or downward in direction. Certainly, the movement was largely downward until about three years ago, and for myself, I put that down to the influence of people like Trump, Charlie Kirk, and those like them. Still, the wheels are beginning to come off the Trump train, and I suspect that, eventually, the kinds of attitudes represented by Kirk and his ilk will come under sufficient scrutiny to create issue for them as well.
Give it time. I fully expect the downward slide to restart, possibly as soon as the midterms.
"Still, the wheels are beginning to come off the Trump train"
Personally, I have to wonder whether it is a last hurrah, that the more moderate churches are fading away, leaving those led by people like Doug Wilson. They may have money and power, but given the vileness of their message, and the indifference of the young to sexuality or ethnicity one can hope for a turning away.
Same here Troublesh00ter. People don’t go from atheist to belief….ever. If they say they have…it’s a lie. One doesn’t see the truth, then decide to take the false belief as a better option.
I was raised secular by an Atheist mother. I am a Pagan since I was 25 years. Sorry. I am wrong, I am actually a liar from your comment.
Just because you were RAISED by an atheist, doesn’t mean you are one. So much for your point.
What don't you understand in "I was raised SECULAR" ? I never went to catechism or learned anything about christianity except it's whitewashed spreading in Europe and in the world in history classes. My schools were all religion free public schools. Unlike the US, some countries know the definition of secular. You should try to learn about them one of these days instead of blabbering about what you know nothing about.
Don't bother to answer. I will block you. I have an allergy to pretentious pedants who believe their way is the only one worth following, religious or not.
"Same here Troublesh00ter. People don’t go from atheist to belief….ever."
One of the older "British Social Attitudes" surveys looked at movements between belief to non-belief and vice versa.
I can't find the survey, so you these are from memory and may not be the exact values from the survey. For Church of England members, for those raised in the CofE the movement to non-belief was about 45%. For Catholics, the movement was on the order of 30%. For non-belief to belief, the rate was about 4%.
Authoritarian movements always lie about religious numbers. Inflating belief, exaggerating dominance, or claiming moral consensus is how they manufacture legitimacy. If they can convince people that “most believe this,” they can justify control in the name of a false mandate.
That’s why trump’s most used lie is “Many people say…”
The finest people, the best people, people with tears in their eyes, yada yada yada.
Except all of them only exist as voices in his head.
I don’t understand how anyone can actually believe religious stories as literal. We live in a time when we know the earth has existed for billions of years and humans, in some form, for millions. When I was younger, I thought adults understood bible stories as fables, just tales used to impart a lesson. I did not realize many people believed it as a child believes in Santa and the North Pole. When I was told/realized Santa was a myth, I assumed all the god and heaven stuff was too.
Less than 1/3 of the world population is christian, but some act like “everyone” is or “should” be.
Even here in the heart of the Bible Belt most of the people publicly proclaiming their alignment with the current administration and professing their strong "Christian" faith don't attend any church regularly. When they do attend, to be sure it's the Evangelical Mega-Hate Circuses they haul their oversized pick-up trucks with giant flag decals to, packing their unvaccinated children into the cabs for their quarterly indoctrination against the actual message of the Jesus they claim to be follow. It's unfortunate I guess that it's only a matter of time before one of these major holiday trips to the God Mall results in a new measles outbreak. It's not their children's fault, but these people are so deluded and selfish it's not going to matter.
Is the downward trend truly leveling off? Or is it just the normal statistical ups and downs in the short term?
I think it's the latter, similar to those decades long downward trend of violent crime. Although correlation dos not equal causation, the two trends seem to share this: desperate people are more likely to be religious, and more likely to be violent. Most of us here who are non-religious are also more likely to be nonviolent and more willing to help others.
What I see is serious growth in Christian Nationalist churches throughout Ohio in semi-rural towns. They are targeting children through LifeWise Academy and on-site inside playgrounds. And they are well-funded by wealthy businessmen and local charitable foundations. I’m not getting complacent, one of these churches has a stranglehold on my hometown and are gaining ground.
Christers are terrified of being treated the way they treated women, POC and LGBTQ people.
Except they're not likely to be treated like that. So it's pretty much an unfounded fear.
They think everyone else will behave badly like they do.
It's a fairly simple set of statistics, I think a deeper dig might be useful.
How are numbers for hatch/match/dispatch ceremonies holding up. This article from the UK National Secular Society notes that Church of England marriages have dropped 9% since 2023, baptisms by 10% and funerals by 8%. Christmas attendance is down by 5% - https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/10/cofe-marriages-and-funerals-in-decline-church-data-shows
I particularly like the paragraph that indicates the average CofE church has 36 attendees on a Sunday, one wedding and six funerals.
I have to wonder whether the same pattern is happening in the US. Captain Cassidy has figures for the Southern Baptists - https://www.patreon.com/posts/stories-hiding-143554893
Ah, but the C of E is one of those wishy-washy Anglican type churches without the fire and brimstone. For a long time it was these mainstream churches losing parishioners who were going to more fundamentalist/evangelical churches. Now at least they're dropping out altogether, if not becoming atheists.
I suspect that the end result may not even be atheism. I think it will be a very healthy dose of " I have other things to do!"
God doesn't become nonexistent, he becomes simply irrelevant.
"God doesn't become nonexistent, he becomes simply irrelevant."
My suspicion is that most of the population of the UK is apatheist.
"one wedding and six funerals." - Didn't that movie star Hugh Grant and Andie McDowell?
I had no idea that the SBC hauled in so many $$$$. Over $700 per year per person? Over a billion? Shhee-it I am in the wrong biz.
It's been noted many, many times that religion is often the best long-term con around. "God says so!" covers a terrifying amount of 'sin' after all, and forgiveness is a requirement.
Yeah I know. I just didn't know that the crazies at the SBC were raking in the dough. A billion is a shit ton.