Thanks to Hemant for bringing this to my attention in August of 2022. I was able to get in touch with FFRF and be the lead plaintiff in this case, along with three others (Ian quoted in the article is also based in Greenville County). I was the one that had standing in that my two kids go to schools in Greenville County and was asked to be the lead plaintiff by FFRF. I must admit that it was a bit nerve wracking given the possible blowback I could face given where I live (home of Bob Jones University for one). I even had to sit down with my two teenagers and explain what was about to happen and reassure them that this was something that their dad had to do, to take a stand. It was satisfying to take a stand for the Establishment Clause and I was pleasantly surprised that the South Carolina Constitution is even stronger in its prohibition of tax payer funds going to sectarian institutions. A major thank you to Patrick Elliott and Karen Heineman of FFRF and Steven Buckingham, the local SC based attorney that handled the case for us and FFRF. I was pleased at the outcome for the most part, what with the judge tossing out the case as Christian Learning Centers of Greenville County withdrew their request for the money. But a win is a win. Ian was correct in that this being SC, more of this can be expected. It just means that more people need to stand up for secularism and the separation of church and state more than ever.
It's kind of regrettable that the reason those provisions are in so many state constitutions is because of the anti-Catholic sentiment that pervaded much of the country when we started getting lots of immigrants from places like Italy, Spain, Poland, Croatia, Austria, etc. The Catholics themselves, discriminated against in public schools that then featured Protestant Bible readings and prayers, took to creating their own parochial schools, and the Protestants wanted to make damn sure those schools didn't get any of THEIR tax money.
No religious institution, be it a school or otherwise, should ever get one cent of public money, for any reason. The law makers who thought they could get away with this would go out of their tiny little minds at the mere suggestion public money go to an Islamic school. There needs to be national legislation that bars religious organizations from having access to public schools, period. It isn't as if this country suffers from a lack of churches.
Totally agree. But I'm sure legislators don't have the intestinal fortitude to introduce this legislation. We suffer from a surfeit of churches, not the lack of them.
I have long contended the staggering number of Christian tribes should be a bigger problem for believers than it is. It is simply something they have grown used to, and they seldom if ever, stop to consider how bizarre it is to worship a god who can't make himself understood.
There are no maps of world equations, differing from one region to the next. You can have a state flower or bird, but there aren’t any state chemicals. You will not find an azure astronomy, a Baptist biology, a capitalist chemistry, an Egyptian engineering, a mammalian math, or a feminist physics. There’s only one worldwide version of each, because they’re all based on FACTS, not accidents of birth or matters of opinion.
Conversely, religion is nothing BUT opinions, no facts involved, which is why anybody’s word on religion is just as good as anyone else’s (to wit, no good at all). And, since there’s no way of resolving doctrinal disputes, we have (no kidding) 45,000 different sects of Christianity, more added weekly.
"APPEARS" to violate State / Church separation?!? There's no "APPEARS" about it; it DOES violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, so blatantly that a blind man could see it with a cane. It's bad enough that some states provide vouchers for private (and mostly Christian schools). When a state budget has a line item like that, alarm bells should go off with ANYONE who genuinely cares about the secular nature of our government.
Thankfully, it was stopped here. Question is: where else is stuff like this going on?
The state constitution bans any private school from taxpayer money, good. Then they cannot say that it is discriminatory toward Christianity. A secular private school cannot get any tax money either, nor can a Jewish school or Muslim school, or a Satanist school. So the persecution card is void, even though they’ll cry persecution till the cows come home.
Tax money for public schools need to go to public schools, full stop. Vouchers are essentially unconstitutional in this state and no politician should be trying to bring them up. Vouchers should be unconstitutional everywhere too. They’re an end run around directly defunding public schools. They can’t win on that platform, so the GOP lies about what vouchers really are, calling them parental choice, but they’re really defund the public school system so the poor and minorities don’t get an education at all.
Because of course they did. They think the only time they should be held accountable for their actions is after they die, and even then they expect to be rewarded instead of punished for their blatant disregard for others.
Anyone from Wisconsin (or, heck, anywhere really) who's reading this might want to get behind the efforts of Kirk Bangstad of the Minocqua Brewing Company's Super PAC, which is sponsoring a lawsuit to get parochial-school vouchers declared unconstitutional here in the Badger State.
95% of the private schools in Wisconsin are affiliated with some religious organization. As private entities, they are free to pick and choose their students, so they can (and DO) discriminate on the basis of not only religion but academic talent, athletic ability, able-bodiedness, and (not loudly) race and ethnicity. By being able to cherry-pick their students from the public schools (which, by law, must serve EVERYBODY), they are reducing the public schools to being the educational option of last resort.
Aiding in this process are two American social movements: Christian nationalists (who oppose secularization in all aspects of public life) and economic conservatives (who oppose public funding of pretty much everything except national defense). And, thru their influence on the most gerrymandered state legislature in the nation, they've rigged the state budget so that it now gives MORE money on a per-pupil basis to private schools than public ones. They've made this task even easier by imposing cost controls and levy limits on the public schools and allowing the state share of school costs to dwindle from its former two-thirds to less than half, piling more and more burden on inequitable local property taxes.
Bangstad's Super PAC has filed a lawsuit challenging this state of affairs on the basis of both the state constitution's mandate to support public education and the federal First Amendment guarantee forbidding a government establishment of religion. As a fund-raiser to help finance this lawsuit, they're offering a very nice T-shirt that lets you show the world that you favor keeping church and state separate. You may order one here:
It’s so easy to check on this stuff. Many if not all states have a free database that the public can access. Even prison records are available in a lot of states (I was a researcher in my former life in case you’re wondering). MFL just doesn’t care as long as you’re for Jesus
It’s truly gobsmacking how many don’t. There was a policeman here who got fired for initiating sex with a domestic violence victim. A neighboring town then hired him. WTF? There was a backlash and they rescinded. I don’t know, maybe the town didn’t give a shit.
I love the fact a minimum wage retail worker is supposed to take being cussed out with a smile or be fired, but a cop gets a little attitude and someone's getting arrested (or worse). Damn blue snowflakes.
Part of a long line of grifters trying to get their hands on the public till, like for profit universities grabbing student loan money, personal finance companies gunning for Social Security money, and private prisons violating prisoners rights for upfront discounts to set up long term profits.
And, in case there was ever any doubt about it, the "advantage" in Medicare Advantage is for the insurance companies, not the victims whom they get to sign up for their scams.
Well, you are not supposed to boil a kid in it's mother's milk, so the dairyness in the tartar sauce would definitely offend Yahweh with the meatiness of the fish.
GLC of Greenville County wants $$$? It's very simple. Do what their savior told them and pray for it in his name. Pop's will come through. Jesus hisself guarandamntees it.
“Wow, we didn’t think we’d get caught with our Hans in the cookie jar. Those folks whose money we’re stealing shouldn’t have any say in how this money is being spent, the governor should be able to just dole it out as he sees fit. No silly constitution rules should be considered. I guess we’ll just withdraw and try again later.”
Good for these citizens for paying attention and standing up for what is right.
The facility for troubled youth would have required a great deal of oversight. Especially because it’s religious. Because we know how abusive they get in general, but the religious ones have quite the cruel streak when it comes to vulnerable youth. I’m glad they aren’t getting the money yet.
Spot on, especially your last paragraph. I’ve read far too many articles on how abusive these places can be. A recipe for a never-ending vicious cycle.
We had a major problem with a Jewish one a couple years back. Yet there was oversight + regular visits from politicians, both from France and Israel. It's one of the student who finally found the courage to escape and tell how it really was. Think Dickens.
42nd-ranked South Carolina is also ranked 42nd in Education. I'm thinking that those taxpayer dollars would be better spent on the Palmetto State's public school system.
Props to Mr. Whatley and the other plaintiffs for drawing a line in the sand to stop taxpayer funds being used to build yet another religious victim factory targeting the most vulnerable youth in the state. They prevented a great deal of suffering- maybe even saved a few lives.
"he worried that it wouldn’t be long before the state tried again to use taxpayer dollars to prop up religion"
Oh, it's probably going to happen every year. Every single budget cycle. Because there's no real downside for the proposing legislator; either they get their earmark, or they don't and get goodwill from their constituents for trying and failing.
Thanks to Hemant for bringing this to my attention in August of 2022. I was able to get in touch with FFRF and be the lead plaintiff in this case, along with three others (Ian quoted in the article is also based in Greenville County). I was the one that had standing in that my two kids go to schools in Greenville County and was asked to be the lead plaintiff by FFRF. I must admit that it was a bit nerve wracking given the possible blowback I could face given where I live (home of Bob Jones University for one). I even had to sit down with my two teenagers and explain what was about to happen and reassure them that this was something that their dad had to do, to take a stand. It was satisfying to take a stand for the Establishment Clause and I was pleasantly surprised that the South Carolina Constitution is even stronger in its prohibition of tax payer funds going to sectarian institutions. A major thank you to Patrick Elliott and Karen Heineman of FFRF and Steven Buckingham, the local SC based attorney that handled the case for us and FFRF. I was pleased at the outcome for the most part, what with the judge tossing out the case as Christian Learning Centers of Greenville County withdrew their request for the money. But a win is a win. Ian was correct in that this being SC, more of this can be expected. It just means that more people need to stand up for secularism and the separation of church and state more than ever.
Congratulations to you for standing up for public schools. Doxing is not a joke.
Only one appropriate response, really: 𝘉𝘳𝘢-𝘷𝘰!
https://media.tenor.com/Sq7rY9NKKd4AAAAC/oscars-standing-ovation.gif
This guy agrees...
https://imgur.com/gallery/FrbYdgn
Well done! May your courage be an example for others to follow.
Thank you for standing up on behalf of all of us.
It's kind of regrettable that the reason those provisions are in so many state constitutions is because of the anti-Catholic sentiment that pervaded much of the country when we started getting lots of immigrants from places like Italy, Spain, Poland, Croatia, Austria, etc. The Catholics themselves, discriminated against in public schools that then featured Protestant Bible readings and prayers, took to creating their own parochial schools, and the Protestants wanted to make damn sure those schools didn't get any of THEIR tax money.
No religious institution, be it a school or otherwise, should ever get one cent of public money, for any reason. The law makers who thought they could get away with this would go out of their tiny little minds at the mere suggestion public money go to an Islamic school. There needs to be national legislation that bars religious organizations from having access to public schools, period. It isn't as if this country suffers from a lack of churches.
Totally agree. But I'm sure legislators don't have the intestinal fortitude to introduce this legislation. We suffer from a surfeit of churches, not the lack of them.
I have long contended the staggering number of Christian tribes should be a bigger problem for believers than it is. It is simply something they have grown used to, and they seldom if ever, stop to consider how bizarre it is to worship a god who can't make himself understood.
And so many people will say, with a straight face, "MY god wouldn't do/say that...", implying that every Christian has his "own god." It's bizarre.
The Christian God is nothing, if not flexible.
Gumby should be so flexible.
There are no maps of world equations, differing from one region to the next. You can have a state flower or bird, but there aren’t any state chemicals. You will not find an azure astronomy, a Baptist biology, a capitalist chemistry, an Egyptian engineering, a mammalian math, or a feminist physics. There’s only one worldwide version of each, because they’re all based on FACTS, not accidents of birth or matters of opinion.
Conversely, religion is nothing BUT opinions, no facts involved, which is why anybody’s word on religion is just as good as anyone else’s (to wit, no good at all). And, since there’s no way of resolving doctrinal disputes, we have (no kidding) 45,000 different sects of Christianity, more added weekly.
Is meth considered a chemical? I think it's the state chemical in several places.
Oh, there's one way of resolving doctrinal disputes. Kill all those who disagree with you. Europe had several hundred years of that, so did Jerusalem.
“Dead men preach no doctrine.”
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F-gCONLDWRQS1qBHL3sBOSqL1MAj2IKpK8d5ByVucshE.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D6bbb4c50ea6256868219ee94236d543a0e4e8350
"APPEARS" to violate State / Church separation?!? There's no "APPEARS" about it; it DOES violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, so blatantly that a blind man could see it with a cane. It's bad enough that some states provide vouchers for private (and mostly Christian schools). When a state budget has a line item like that, alarm bells should go off with ANYONE who genuinely cares about the secular nature of our government.
Thankfully, it was stopped here. Question is: where else is stuff like this going on?
Easier to answer where 𝘪𝘴𝘯'𝘵 stuff like this going on.
The state constitution bans any private school from taxpayer money, good. Then they cannot say that it is discriminatory toward Christianity. A secular private school cannot get any tax money either, nor can a Jewish school or Muslim school, or a Satanist school. So the persecution card is void, even though they’ll cry persecution till the cows come home.
Tax money for public schools need to go to public schools, full stop. Vouchers are essentially unconstitutional in this state and no politician should be trying to bring them up. Vouchers should be unconstitutional everywhere too. They’re an end run around directly defunding public schools. They can’t win on that platform, so the GOP lies about what vouchers really are, calling them parental choice, but they’re really defund the public school system so the poor and minorities don’t get an education at all.
Beat me to it as I was typing it.
I wonder when, not if, one of two SC senators will going to cry on conservative outlets and which one will be the first. I bet on "la belle du sud".
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛 𝑡𝑟𝑖𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑣𝑜𝑖𝑑 𝑔𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑑𝑒𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠
Because of course they did. They think the only time they should be held accountable for their actions is after they die, and even then they expect to be rewarded instead of punished for their blatant disregard for others.
Anyone from Wisconsin (or, heck, anywhere really) who's reading this might want to get behind the efforts of Kirk Bangstad of the Minocqua Brewing Company's Super PAC, which is sponsoring a lawsuit to get parochial-school vouchers declared unconstitutional here in the Badger State.
95% of the private schools in Wisconsin are affiliated with some religious organization. As private entities, they are free to pick and choose their students, so they can (and DO) discriminate on the basis of not only religion but academic talent, athletic ability, able-bodiedness, and (not loudly) race and ethnicity. By being able to cherry-pick their students from the public schools (which, by law, must serve EVERYBODY), they are reducing the public schools to being the educational option of last resort.
Aiding in this process are two American social movements: Christian nationalists (who oppose secularization in all aspects of public life) and economic conservatives (who oppose public funding of pretty much everything except national defense). And, thru their influence on the most gerrymandered state legislature in the nation, they've rigged the state budget so that it now gives MORE money on a per-pupil basis to private schools than public ones. They've made this task even easier by imposing cost controls and levy limits on the public schools and allowing the state share of school costs to dwindle from its former two-thirds to less than half, piling more and more burden on inequitable local property taxes.
Bangstad's Super PAC has filed a lawsuit challenging this state of affairs on the basis of both the state constitution's mandate to support public education and the federal First Amendment guarantee forbidding a government establishment of religion. As a fund-raiser to help finance this lawsuit, they're offering a very nice T-shirt that lets you show the world that you favor keeping church and state separate. You may order one here:
https://www.minocquabrewingcompany.com/products/separation-of-church-and-state-shirt
I need someone in the army deployed in Europe to order one 🙄
Um....why?
Order one and follow the steps in check out.
Ooooo, I like that shirt
Bought!!
O/T: Would you believe that Moms For Liberty Leader is a registered sex offender?
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/philadelphia/moms-for-liberty-philadelphia-pastor-sex-offender-20231120.html
It’s so easy to check on this stuff. Many if not all states have a free database that the public can access. Even prison records are available in a lot of states (I was a researcher in my former life in case you’re wondering). MFL just doesn’t care as long as you’re for Jesus
A bigot for Jesus, I doubt mfl would have gotten along with Abbott Pierre.
Surprising absolutely no one here.
(damn paywall won't let me read the article)
Try this.
https://www.newsweek.com/moms-liberty-chapter-worked-sex-offender-christian-outreach-1845203
Thanks. That worked.
Morons for Liberty sure can pick 'em. Guess they never heard of vetting.
It’s truly gobsmacking how many don’t. There was a policeman here who got fired for initiating sex with a domestic violence victim. A neighboring town then hired him. WTF? There was a backlash and they rescinded. I don’t know, maybe the town didn’t give a shit.
And yet a minimum wage worker can be fired or not hired if zir drug test shows up with pot on it. Priorities man. Gotta love ‘em.
I love the fact a minimum wage retail worker is supposed to take being cussed out with a smile or be fired, but a cop gets a little attitude and someone's getting arrested (or worse). Damn blue snowflakes.
Interesting. I was able to read it and when I went back to copy it for you, I was paywalled.
Stoopid interwebz.
It could be worse (for me) and geowalled.
Refresh the page. It worked for me.
Merci. Works now.
Mauvais murikhan, tu t'es servi d'un mot franchouillard 😁
Part of a long line of grifters trying to get their hands on the public till, like for profit universities grabbing student loan money, personal finance companies gunning for Social Security money, and private prisons violating prisoners rights for upfront discounts to set up long term profits.
And, in case there was ever any doubt about it, the "advantage" in Medicare Advantage is for the insurance companies, not the victims whom they get to sign up for their scams.
I like my Advantage plan.
$1.5 million for a christian school $6000 for nutrition? Illustrative.
It's the bible belt, where they worship an imaginary being almost as much as they do porn.
Give the money to the christians and they can make a whole bunch of fish sandwiches.
Loaves and fishes all in one.
The bible was never clear on whether or not he could do tartar sauce as well.
Well, you are not supposed to boil a kid in it's mother's milk, so the dairyness in the tartar sauce would definitely offend Yahweh with the meatiness of the fish.
I'm not sure I'd want to know where that tartar sauce came from.
Tartarus?
Wrong myth.
"The Tatars[34] (/ˈtɑːtərz/ TAH-tərz),[35] sometimes referred to as Tartars"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars
Hope South Carolina isn't pumping tax money into one of these...
https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2023/11/20
Wasn't that what the $1.5 million was really for?
(He writes after 2 separate edits because his brain just isn't working today)
It's Monday. It's after 1700 here and I'm still not sure my brain is firing on all cylinders.
You have cylinders?
I love the comics section on this here site
GLC of Greenville County wants $$$? It's very simple. Do what their savior told them and pray for it in his name. Pop's will come through. Jesus hisself guarandamntees it.
I read poop's 🤣
I wonder if the students accepted if this "learning center" had been built would all suffer of bone spurs.
It's either that or be "losers" and "suckers".
“Wow, we didn’t think we’d get caught with our Hans in the cookie jar. Those folks whose money we’re stealing shouldn’t have any say in how this money is being spent, the governor should be able to just dole it out as he sees fit. No silly constitution rules should be considered. I guess we’ll just withdraw and try again later.”
Good for these citizens for paying attention and standing up for what is right.
The facility for troubled youth would have required a great deal of oversight. Especially because it’s religious. Because we know how abusive they get in general, but the religious ones have quite the cruel streak when it comes to vulnerable youth. I’m glad they aren’t getting the money yet.
“Wow, we didn’t think we’d get caught with our Hans in the cookie jar.”
Getting caught with Hans in the cookie jar is more Jim Bakker’s brand.
The only dessert anybody's having after partaking of one of Bakker's buckets is a handful of Immodium and some Pepto-Bismol.
Hans can keep his hands out of the cookie jar too!
That’s what Tammy Fae said.
And Franz?
He’s here to pump you up!
https://imgur.com/t/snl/koNHnws
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GhCXAiNz9Jo&pp=ygUPZnJhbnogZmVyZGluYW5k
Spot on, especially your last paragraph. I’ve read far too many articles on how abusive these places can be. A recipe for a never-ending vicious cycle.
We had a major problem with a Jewish one a couple years back. Yet there was oversight + regular visits from politicians, both from France and Israel. It's one of the student who finally found the courage to escape and tell how it really was. Think Dickens.
42nd-ranked South Carolina is also ranked 42nd in Education. I'm thinking that those taxpayer dollars would be better spent on the Palmetto State's public school system.
But that would make sense. Can't have that in Jesusland.
Props to Mr. Whatley and the other plaintiffs for drawing a line in the sand to stop taxpayer funds being used to build yet another religious victim factory targeting the most vulnerable youth in the state. They prevented a great deal of suffering- maybe even saved a few lives.
"he worried that it wouldn’t be long before the state tried again to use taxpayer dollars to prop up religion"
Oh, it's probably going to happen every year. Every single budget cycle. Because there's no real downside for the proposing legislator; either they get their earmark, or they don't and get goodwill from their constituents for trying and failing.