Yes, and ? Every public display of religion is a publicity stunt, point barre. Religion and politics should cross paths as much as two parallels lines.
"my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven"
In that case, wear clothes made of hemp, flax and badly tanned leather, stop shaping your beard and cutting your hair, don't forget to cover your head with ashes and go find the nearest desert (or a pillar), it depends of your level of dedication, to meditate. And forget too luxurious meals, wine, beer and spirits.
Marching down main streets toting religious statues. Holding 'prayer marches' around buildings that host things you disapprove of. Hollering on street corners. Holding massive, politically charged rallies.
What was that thing about ignoring the beam in your own eye while yelling about a mote in someone else's?
The problem is uneven distribution. "County commissioner" voting turnout is almost certainly low and probably heavily overrrepresented by organized groups that push their members to go out and vote. IOW, churches. Add to that, I'm guessing the local GOP has basically been captured by this sect, so that anyone who comes in to vote on some higher office and votes party line is inadvertently voting in one of these religious extremists, simply because they have an (R) next to their name.
So IMO "increase in nones" isn't going to change things. What is needed to change things is (1) more nones voting, which means (2) young people actually voting, and also means (3) nones of all ages actually paying attention to local politics rather than downballot party line voting, and finally (4) going to the polls much more than just every 4th year in November.
Or, if all that sounds like way to much work and social responsibility, we can go with the standard way of solving this problem. Which is ignore our elected officials until they make such an egregious error that the community is forced to pay attention and votes them out the next time around. I suspect this guy may show us how that works.
"my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven" And THERE he personally throws the constitution out the window. Hear that voters? It is the sound of all of YOUR rights being flushed down the toilet.
He don't give one flying fuck about YOU he only cares about kissing the ass of his imaginary sky-daddy.
The daydream I just had about busloads of Christians being rejected at the pearly gates is completely your fault, I'll have you know. I'll admit it was kinda nice while it lasted, but then I had to come back and deal with reality, and I think I got some bruises from it.
Has it really? Can you demonstrate the truth of this assertion? Or are you taking your Christian faith as an assumption that your god actively participates in the growth of your community, 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝗰𝗼𝗿𝗿𝗼𝗯𝗼𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻?
This is what Christians do. They take their numbers in the community as license to dominate the culture. Then, when minority elements of that same culture speak up and insist on recognition, these same Christians label them as "other" and claim that said minorities somehow devalue the community as a whole, without so much as an iota of evidence to support their claim. That this also happened with a Episcopal leader who desired to make his own public invocation only further confirms the problem.
Such bullying tactics need to be confronted head-on, and I am mightily pleased that Bendr Bones and The Satanic Temple – West Michigan is prepared to face their opponents in court.
"The Satanic Temple's actions are a waste of our valuable time with their frivolous antics."
Talk about projection. So it's NOT a waste of time for a CHRISTIAN to give an invocation, Bon Enema? Does it get heavy carrying two standards? Want to stop the time wasting? You can help by putting an end to useless, ineffective invocations altogether.
But you won't do that, will you? You want Christian exclusivity. Trouble with that is: How long before you start trying to exclude different sects of your religion that you don't like or agree with personally?
He and/or his group have already DONE that with the Episcopal leader, who had to SUE to be heard. Bonnema badly needs to be taught a lesson, preferably in court, that our governments are SECULAR, and his Christian faith does NOT give him an inside track.
It would be nice to see an Episcopalian's complaint legally rolled up with the Satanist's. That would likely prevent judges from carving out some broad-based Christian privilege the way they easily could if it was just a Satanist.
THAT would be VERY impressive, particularly seeing the Episcopalian and the Satanist working together, perhaps along with the FFRF. I would genuinely LOVE that!
I think TST just emphasized their nontheistic beliefs to show that these idiots never even research the group they are so opposed to. They see the word Satan and lose their minds over a fairy tale that isn’t even biblically accurate.
These Christian Nationalists are all alike: warped and ignorant. It’s a dangerous combo since people are lazy and often just agree with the loudest moron in the room.
“if we deviate from these foundational values and stray from God, our community may lose the very essence that has drawn people, including those with differing beliefs like Satanists, to want to reside here.”
Oh yes, the Satanists would no longer want to live in a community that was tolerant and constitutional. They’d definitely leave a community who stopped oppressing them. No, it is clear you want the Satanists to leave so you can force everyone to be your kind of Christian.
“From my perspective, as a follower of Christ, my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven. I firmly believe that Satan's defeat is already sealed, and his aim is to defame and undermine all that is righteous.”
If his defeat is sealed, then you need not worry. What you do on earth has no bearing on the outcome, so let it go. Or do you not trust your god to do what he says.
Oh, they trust their god completely. So long as it does what it’s told.
But it should remember that it is completely replaceable. After all, this isn’t the first God to sit in Heaven’s throne. Its predecessors learned that the hard way.
“The Satanic Temple's actions are a waste of our valuable time with their frivolous antics.”
Oh no, it is not a waste of time, it has already brought forth fruit. It exposed you for the Christian Nationalist you are. What is a waste of time is your desire to push back on them. You are the only one committed antics, frivolous or otherwise.
Only because it is one, albeit coming from what amounts to a paper tiger. I want to see the look on Bonnema's face when he has to deal with FFRF lawyers and those they represent in court.
Shouldn't surprise me at all that his attitude will be considerably different.
And here we go AGAIN. Commissioner Bonnema is such a dedicated Christian that he cannot tolerate the thought of a competing belief system. This obsession among the commissioners in general is SO bad that an Episcopal minister had to sue in order to be heard. No surprise at all that when an avowed Satanist from The Satanist Temple successfully petitions to deliver an invocation, that Bonnema completely loses his shit. Sadly, this is all about as predictable as the sun rising in the east.
Granted that invocations, religious or secular, should NOT be going on at all. I'm all for: "This meeting will come to order. What business do we have before this commission?" That said, the Constitution demands that NO favoritism between religions can be entertained by the government, and that means NONE. Clearly, Bendr Bones is ready to engage, and I'm sure that the Freedom From Religion Foundation will have no problem in backing him and his Satanists up, if necessary.
As for Bonnema, I would suggest that he hold onto his hat.
I have been a member of various public committees in my 40 years as a grown up. Never ever was any meeting started with an invocation or prayer. Never. The really weird thing is that nothing bad happened. But I live on another continent.
"From my perspective, as a follower of Christ, my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven."
And that's where we have a problem in a secular body: Your personal loyalties to a phantom deity and its equally phantom realm. It has NO place in governance. If you truly have an allegiance with either, then you should step down as District 4s County Commissioner. Not only that, you should do what your savior tells you to do to gain that kingdom: Sell all you own, give all the money to the poor and follow him on your own dime. Think you can live-hand-to-mouth spreading "The Good Word?" Somehow, I doubt it. Your alleged devotion only stretches so far. Jesus would be ashamed of you, were he real.
Oh, and by the way? Christians delivering invocations is tantamount to praying in public. Something your own messiah told people NOT to do.
Exactly. So, you want to serve the kingdom of heaven? Good! Then quit your job in the worldly government and go become a fucking priest or something. You weren't elected by Jesus, dipshit, you were elected by 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘷𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘴... and your religion is not the law of the land, no matter how much you might want it to be. If you aren't going to serve the people- 𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘮- then your ass shouldn't be parked in that chair.
The Satanic Temple has been recognized by the government as a religion, the IRS recognizes it, therefore, whether the actions TST take are perceived as a publicity stunt by you is irrelevant. They are a religion that followed the rules to give an invocation. It would undermine them more, since this is just a publicity stunt, to allow them their invocation without even bringing it up. To get angry about it and write this stupid tirade only give the stunt more publicity. Ignore it and it goes away, fight it and you give it more power. It’s so much easier for you to actually follow the constitution on this than to do what you are doing.
America's lunatic right has never been able to process the fact rights are not matters of majority rule. If they love the Constitution so much they should know the founders did not give religion any role to play in governance, and that our government at all levels, cannot choose one religion over another. Every bit of progress the human race has ever made on every front, as been accomplished by overcoming people like these board members.
Pendant que j'y suis. If you are determined to start your meetings with a religious invocation, why not start them by invoking Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Athena or Manjushri ?
Goddess of Wisdom. Most legislative bodies could do with more Wisdom. Not that prayers to her would be anymore effective than prayers to Yahweh, but the symbolism is nicer.
“God's hand has guided the development of our community”. I guess the commissioner hasn’t read “The Stand”. IIRC the hand of god wiped out a shitload of people. Be careful what you wish for.
"pulling a “publicity stunt.”
Yes, and ? Every public display of religion is a publicity stunt, point barre. Religion and politics should cross paths as much as two parallels lines.
"my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven"
In that case, wear clothes made of hemp, flax and badly tanned leather, stop shaping your beard and cutting your hair, don't forget to cover your head with ashes and go find the nearest desert (or a pillar), it depends of your level of dedication, to meditate. And forget too luxurious meals, wine, beer and spirits.
But but but you are taking it out of context.
Spoiler: the context makes it worse.
*gasp* Christians?! Pulling publicity stunts?; NEVER! The Bible explicitely forbids it! Everyone knows Christians obeys the Bible!
Except that part about selling everything you own and giving it to the poor. And for many of them, that love your neighbor bullshit.
And do not covet thy neighbor's ass er, wife.
Let's talk about 'publicity stunts."
Marching down main streets toting religious statues. Holding 'prayer marches' around buildings that host things you disapprove of. Hollering on street corners. Holding massive, politically charged rallies.
What was that thing about ignoring the beam in your own eye while yelling about a mote in someone else's?
Or that thing about not praying in public.
No deserts near Grand Rapids or Ottawa County. But there are some pretty impressive sand dunes next to Lake Michigan, would those work?
It should be a bother enough.
Sleeping Bear! My parents took us there quite a few times back in the era of drifts of dead alewives on the shore.
And no shrimp. Or lobsters.
I really wish they would follow the shellfish commandment as that would leave more lobster for me.
Was re-reading this just now and for a moment thought it said: "my primary allegiance is to the 𝗞𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗴𝗼𝗻 𝗘𝗺𝗽𝗶𝗿𝗲"
I have one very simple solution to this dilemma.
Stop with the useless invocations entirely.
No Episcopalians, No Satanists, No prayers at all.
Simple and no lawsuit needed.
It'd be nice, but we've been 'round this track entirely too many times. Frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath.
With te increasing portion of Americans becoming non-religious, Nones, I think we may have a chance to infuse a more secular form of Government.
The problem is uneven distribution. "County commissioner" voting turnout is almost certainly low and probably heavily overrrepresented by organized groups that push their members to go out and vote. IOW, churches. Add to that, I'm guessing the local GOP has basically been captured by this sect, so that anyone who comes in to vote on some higher office and votes party line is inadvertently voting in one of these religious extremists, simply because they have an (R) next to their name.
So IMO "increase in nones" isn't going to change things. What is needed to change things is (1) more nones voting, which means (2) young people actually voting, and also means (3) nones of all ages actually paying attention to local politics rather than downballot party line voting, and finally (4) going to the polls much more than just every 4th year in November.
Or, if all that sounds like way to much work and social responsibility, we can go with the standard way of solving this problem. Which is ignore our elected officials until they make such an egregious error that the community is forced to pay attention and votes them out the next time around. I suspect this guy may show us how that works.
One sincerely hopes!
Republican gerrymandering means that 2% of the population have 104% of the votes.
"my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven" And THERE he personally throws the constitution out the window. Hear that voters? It is the sound of all of YOUR rights being flushed down the toilet.
He don't give one flying fuck about YOU he only cares about kissing the ass of his imaginary sky-daddy.
Can we bus him there? He's considered an 'illegal'.
The daydream I just had about busloads of Christians being rejected at the pearly gates is completely your fault, I'll have you know. I'll admit it was kinda nice while it lasted, but then I had to come back and deal with reality, and I think I got some bruises from it.
And thus the Christian Nationalists agenda for 2025 and beyond.
𝐺𝑜𝑑'𝑠 ℎ𝑎𝑛𝑑 ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑔𝑢𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑙𝑜𝑝𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦, 𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑡 𝑎 𝑏𝑒𝑎𝑐𝑜𝑛 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛 𝑀𝑖𝑐ℎ𝑖𝑔𝑎𝑛.
Has it really? Can you demonstrate the truth of this assertion? Or are you taking your Christian faith as an assumption that your god actively participates in the growth of your community, 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝗰𝗼𝗿𝗿𝗼𝗯𝗼𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻?
This is what Christians do. They take their numbers in the community as license to dominate the culture. Then, when minority elements of that same culture speak up and insist on recognition, these same Christians label them as "other" and claim that said minorities somehow devalue the community as a whole, without so much as an iota of evidence to support their claim. That this also happened with a Episcopal leader who desired to make his own public invocation only further confirms the problem.
Such bullying tactics need to be confronted head-on, and I am mightily pleased that Bendr Bones and The Satanic Temple – West Michigan is prepared to face their opponents in court.
"The Satanic Temple's actions are a waste of our valuable time with their frivolous antics."
Talk about projection. So it's NOT a waste of time for a CHRISTIAN to give an invocation, Bon Enema? Does it get heavy carrying two standards? Want to stop the time wasting? You can help by putting an end to useless, ineffective invocations altogether.
But you won't do that, will you? You want Christian exclusivity. Trouble with that is: How long before you start trying to exclude different sects of your religion that you don't like or agree with personally?
He and/or his group have already DONE that with the Episcopal leader, who had to SUE to be heard. Bonnema badly needs to be taught a lesson, preferably in court, that our governments are SECULAR, and his Christian faith does NOT give him an inside track.
He won't like the lesson. Frankly, I don't care.
It would be nice to see an Episcopalian's complaint legally rolled up with the Satanist's. That would likely prevent judges from carving out some broad-based Christian privilege the way they easily could if it was just a Satanist.
THAT would be VERY impressive, particularly seeing the Episcopalian and the Satanist working together, perhaps along with the FFRF. I would genuinely LOVE that!
Bad, not bon, I doubt there is anything good to expect from him.
He needs a good enema. Preferably a high colonic that finally removes his head from his ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gADVJDW7WTw
If it weren’t for double standards, they wouldn’t have ANY standards.
Again, it wouldn't matter if they did believe in and worship the pop culture Christian Satan. The 1st amendment would still apply.
I think TST just emphasized their nontheistic beliefs to show that these idiots never even research the group they are so opposed to. They see the word Satan and lose their minds over a fairy tale that isn’t even biblically accurate.
These Christian Nationalists are all alike: warped and ignorant. It’s a dangerous combo since people are lazy and often just agree with the loudest moron in the room.
...and even if they worshiped the Christian version of Satan, he'd still be more worthy of the adoration than their monster of a goddything.
“if we deviate from these foundational values and stray from God, our community may lose the very essence that has drawn people, including those with differing beliefs like Satanists, to want to reside here.”
Oh yes, the Satanists would no longer want to live in a community that was tolerant and constitutional. They’d definitely leave a community who stopped oppressing them. No, it is clear you want the Satanists to leave so you can force everyone to be your kind of Christian.
“From my perspective, as a follower of Christ, my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven. I firmly believe that Satan's defeat is already sealed, and his aim is to defame and undermine all that is righteous.”
If his defeat is sealed, then you need not worry. What you do on earth has no bearing on the outcome, so let it go. Or do you not trust your god to do what he says.
Oh, they trust their god completely. So long as it does what it’s told.
But it should remember that it is completely replaceable. After all, this isn’t the first God to sit in Heaven’s throne. Its predecessors learned that the hard way.
Well, a big part of the problem is all these gods seem shaky on the concept of consent. Zeus and Yahweh come particularly to mind.
“The Satanic Temple's actions are a waste of our valuable time with their frivolous antics.”
Oh no, it is not a waste of time, it has already brought forth fruit. It exposed you for the Christian Nationalist you are. What is a waste of time is your desire to push back on them. You are the only one committed antics, frivolous or otherwise.
Well, invocations as a whole are a waste of time, no matter who's performing them. And it *is* a performance, no matter whose shaman is doing it.
"I advocate for maintaining peace within our community."
That sounds like a threat.
Only because it is one, albeit coming from what amounts to a paper tiger. I want to see the look on Bonnema's face when he has to deal with FFRF lawyers and those they represent in court.
Shouldn't surprise me at all that his attitude will be considerably different.
Of course it does, graveyards are some of the most peaceful places around.
And here we go AGAIN. Commissioner Bonnema is such a dedicated Christian that he cannot tolerate the thought of a competing belief system. This obsession among the commissioners in general is SO bad that an Episcopal minister had to sue in order to be heard. No surprise at all that when an avowed Satanist from The Satanist Temple successfully petitions to deliver an invocation, that Bonnema completely loses his shit. Sadly, this is all about as predictable as the sun rising in the east.
Granted that invocations, religious or secular, should NOT be going on at all. I'm all for: "This meeting will come to order. What business do we have before this commission?" That said, the Constitution demands that NO favoritism between religions can be entertained by the government, and that means NONE. Clearly, Bendr Bones is ready to engage, and I'm sure that the Freedom From Religion Foundation will have no problem in backing him and his Satanists up, if necessary.
As for Bonnema, I would suggest that he hold onto his hat.
I have been a member of various public committees in my 40 years as a grown up. Never ever was any meeting started with an invocation or prayer. Never. The really weird thing is that nothing bad happened. But I live on another continent.
Don't forget we live in Satamunists countries who send tornadoes and other calamities in the babble belt because we support LGBTQI+ and Drags Q/K.
Probably not as magical as here in these United States...so there's that.
୧(﹒︠ᴗ﹒︡)୨
Hahahah. Hahaha. Yep, magical, that has never been what I thought while visiting my inlaws in US. But you knew that. ;-)
Grown up‽
Jeg forstår ikke hva du mener med det.
I want to be a Toys 'R' Us kid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRMmvRpmZ8I
Engelsk Grown up = Voksen på norsk, dansk og svensk. Og hvor er du fra? Ble bittelitt mye nysgjerrig nå.
Illinois, currently in St. Petersburg, FL.
Men kan skrive norsk. Hvorfor?
https://translate.google.com/
We have a secular government here as well, but the religious right cannot accept that.
"From my perspective, as a follower of Christ, my primary allegiance is to the Kingdom of Heaven."
And that's where we have a problem in a secular body: Your personal loyalties to a phantom deity and its equally phantom realm. It has NO place in governance. If you truly have an allegiance with either, then you should step down as District 4s County Commissioner. Not only that, you should do what your savior tells you to do to gain that kingdom: Sell all you own, give all the money to the poor and follow him on your own dime. Think you can live-hand-to-mouth spreading "The Good Word?" Somehow, I doubt it. Your alleged devotion only stretches so far. Jesus would be ashamed of you, were he real.
Oh, and by the way? Christians delivering invocations is tantamount to praying in public. Something your own messiah told people NOT to do.
Exactly. So, you want to serve the kingdom of heaven? Good! Then quit your job in the worldly government and go become a fucking priest or something. You weren't elected by Jesus, dipshit, you were elected by 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘷𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘴... and your religion is not the law of the land, no matter how much you might want it to be. If you aren't going to serve the people- 𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘮- then your ass shouldn't be parked in that chair.
The Satanic Temple has been recognized by the government as a religion, the IRS recognizes it, therefore, whether the actions TST take are perceived as a publicity stunt by you is irrelevant. They are a religion that followed the rules to give an invocation. It would undermine them more, since this is just a publicity stunt, to allow them their invocation without even bringing it up. To get angry about it and write this stupid tirade only give the stunt more publicity. Ignore it and it goes away, fight it and you give it more power. It’s so much easier for you to actually follow the constitution on this than to do what you are doing.
But it wouldn't feed his persecution complex.
Or his ego.
America's lunatic right has never been able to process the fact rights are not matters of majority rule. If they love the Constitution so much they should know the founders did not give religion any role to play in governance, and that our government at all levels, cannot choose one religion over another. Every bit of progress the human race has ever made on every front, as been accomplished by overcoming people like these board members.
So straightforward, yet so difficult for so many to comprehend.
Pendant que j'y suis. If you are determined to start your meetings with a religious invocation, why not start them by invoking Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Athena or Manjushri ?
Goddess of Wisdom. Most legislative bodies could do with more Wisdom. Not that prayers to her would be anymore effective than prayers to Yahweh, but the symbolism is nicer.
I'd suggest Dionysus or Ninkasi, but then they 𝘥𝘦𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘺 wouldn't get any work done.
With nast-Cs it would definitely be an improvement.
At least Ninkasi doesn't seem to have a dangerous frenzy as part of her worship.
How 'bout Bacchus?
Bacchus is just the Roman aspect of Dionysus. :)
But he drinks Diet Pepsi, so definitely the better aspect. :)
Or something that everybody can agree on. 🍝😋🤤
Soy sauce, sesame seeds and green onions be udon you 😁
Soy sauce‽‽‽ Glug, glug, glug.
I am short on ponzu.
Bon point mais, I seriously doubt he has any idea as to who these other deities are.
It doesn't matter as long as the ones trolling him know what they represent.
“God's hand has guided the development of our community”. I guess the commissioner hasn’t read “The Stand”. IIRC the hand of god wiped out a shitload of people. Be careful what you wish for.
"What does God need with a nuclear warhead? Doesn't he have fire and brimstone?"
We should refer to YHVH as Captain Trips.
It’s done as much damage
Mostly bad guys, just a couple of good guys. : )
Yep, Larry and Ralph, which broke my heart.
God needs a better project manager. The whole plan from Campian to Las Vegas was a disaster.
I have recently come across this wonderful (NSFW!!!) song called “The Hand of the Almighty”.
A sample verse:
“Long ago a man named Lot
Had a wife he thought was hot
But she wouldn’t stop her black and sinful ways
You know it was her own damn fault
When God turned that bitch to salt
That’s how He used to work back in those days.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIK0xIZbim8
I'm pretty sure that isn't how the story went...
No matter how many times you urinate on the Constitution, Mr. Bonnema, it still won't belong to you.