That's Wilson's first mistake among too many. He tries to push HIS version of Christianity on the entire populace of Battle Ground and he will in fact have a battle on his hands, particularly when business owners take a hike en masse.
Oh, and he wants to "govern unbelievers?!?" Dougie doesn't want to try that with me or with any of the regulars here. We won't take it, and he won't like it if he attempts to force the issue.
Because we don't take crap from ANYONE, least of all Doug Wilson.
How many times have we said it? They want EVERYONE to agree with them and believe as they do. Wilson said as much. He wants a white-bread, Christian community (if you're a PoC, I would WORRY!), and he wants to push his hallucination across the state.
I always say to xtians: "You can't even agree with each other. Why do you expect US to agree with you? Come back when you decide which is the "right" sect and can present a united front. THEN we'll discuss."
That would be fine if they would just keep their spiritual disagreements between themselves. Unfortunately, they have a tendency to involve unconcerned parties.
Oh, but they have their Great Commission, and they have to tell EVERYONE about Jesus and convert EVERYONE ... mostly so that they don't have to suffer any cognitive dissonance. ๐
Authoritarians are control freaks - taken to excess, it creates billionaires. But also dysfunctional families and communities. It is also not a stable way to organize communities unless you want a dictatorship. unfortunately they are ascendant in the US as of now.
Not all of us are this way. Some of us experience experience cognitive dissonance watching this happen. We grew up being told one thing and in the last 10 years it completely crumbled with where evangelicals are now, maybe they always were but it wasn't so obvious to me.
I spend time who do want everyone to agree with them and it seems to be mostly fear based for others spending eternity in torture (which I don't actually think the Bible says). If you're interested in an alternative to main stream point of view I would point you to the Voxology Podcast, in particular this episode at this time, https://youtu.be/EfGr29aQi4M?t=204
Well, it's not like walking into a town and saying "I want to be your theocratic dictator" is going to net much popularity.
They have to use subterfuge, because their end goal is just so awful. Heck this guy's goal is so awful he speaks about it in aphorisms even to his own crowd. He's probably got "final solution" written on a napkin somewhere, he's just too smart to share it...yet.
Ignoring what Jesus said is a time-honored Christian tradition, going back to at least 418 AD when St. Augustine decided "turn the other cheek" meant "Just War Theory."
They are always hiding their true intentions because they are horrific. Anti-abortion folks have been doing this forever. Eventually, they say the quiet part out loud like, people who have abortions should be in prison or receive the death penalty.
If abortion is as bad as slavery, but "sodomy" is WORSE than slavery, it would follow (from HIS premises, to be clear) that homosexuality is the ultimate sin, ranking above killing a child.
This is not the sort of person you want in charge of law enforcement.
That attitude can only ever be held by someone who is certain that they will never be at the receiving end of that policy. They themselves and maybe a few others of their family/tribe.
Wasn't there a joke or a Twilight Zone episode or something where a racist bastard who hates his black neighbour gets granted a wish and wishes for slavery to come back, only to have the tables turned when he becomes the neighbour's slave?
The internal logic is probably: sodomy leaves a spiritual stain on a human. While abortion leaves a spiritual stain on a human's property. And slavery, well, that's just another property thing again.
That this fool thinks he needs government to backstop his religion speaks directly to just how little confidence he really has in his message. Few people disgust me more than those who claim their religion entitles them to make the rules for everyone. No theocracy was ever a bastion of human rights and intellectual freedom.
What needs to happen is that this story needs to get out to the ordinary citizens of Battle Ground, Washington. Make some noise about it and pull back the curtain on Wilson's and Maddox's plans, and it's entirely possible that it'll hit the fan faster than either of those dips can blink.
They think they can pull a fast one. They need to be disabused of that notion.
Far too many of these authoritarian Christians delude themselves into believing everyone will passively submit to being ruled by religion once they take control.
It may not work in all cases, but if you tell a citizen that their local government is trying something that is severely opposed to their best interests, you will have a ticked-off citizen in the time it takes to read this sentence.
Do that enough times and you have a movement, with thanks and a tip of the chapeau to Arlo Guthrie!
Granted, for what I hear in the comments, Battle Ground is pretty strong MAGA territory. Even then, when someone comes up to you and says, "My way or the highway," in at least a few cases, they'll be pushing a false dichotomy. There's a third choice: RESISTANCE.
And depending on the numbers that do, resistance may NOT be futile.
It's an open question in my mind, whether these fanatics are thinking "If only I am put in charge and get to make all the rules, then peace and prosperity for everyone and puppies and kittens will rain from the sky", or if they just think "If only I am put in charge and get to make all the rules, then I get to be in charge and make all the rules."
Living in next door in Vancouver, WA and often traveling through Battle Ground, this doesn't surprise me. That town is MAGA central and during the pandemic it had loony anti-vaxers out protesting on the main routes in town. Not only that, it also has far too many neo-nazi racist militia members who openly have confederate flags and Nazi flags flying on their lawns. On top of that, along Interstate 5 you can see an infamous display of flag poles flying confederate flags and various militia flags.
Battle Ground is a place that most of us in Clark County try to avoid whenever possible.
Confederate and Nazi flags combined with Christian theocracy. Honestly, maybe we should let it happen. The town can serve as an object lesson of where they *really* want to go with it.
Sometimes, the best argument you can make against your opponent is to simply hand them the mic.
Don't be quite so glib about this. Vancouver itself is experiencing a ton of growth, lots of people moving from more repressive regions of the country. With Vancouver's population, Clark county is getting to be closer to purple. (Lewis and Cowlitz counties are very red, though.) That said, it's not news to those of us who live here that the NE part of the county is a nest of religious conservativism. Patriot Prayer started further out in the county and there has been a sizable population of Evangelistic Apostolic Lutherans for quite a while. A number of long term larger companies are run by EAL believers. It could get interesting if the two groups have disagreements.
This made me truely want to vomit. I studied the slave trade and slavey in high school (in the late 90s, Australia) and it left me sickened.
It makes me wonder where these people were educated. Not that my own country's education system didn't then and doesn't have massive hole is the teaching of our history either. But to think slavery was positive or bought any kind of equanimity is too far of a stretch.
Well, since we are living in the country that thought slavery was a good economic strategy, these folks were taught here. Where the powers that be thought slavery was a good thing to do. The states that utilized slavery the most still promote false claims regarding slavery that have been thoroughly debunked for over a hundred years. These people are so bigoted, uneducated, and steeped in โheritage not hateโ propaganda that this type of thinking is normal. Now, these guys being born and raised in Washington state seem to be far removed from the propaganda, but their Christian nationalist churches have roots in the south and seek to spread the propaganda to bring the slavery back. We really needed to root out the thinking by actually punishing the traitors after the civil war and stomp out Jim Crow before it took hold. But we wanted to placate the white southerners to keep the economy they built going.
Even the folks in the USA that arenโt so bigoted and exposed to the worst of the miseducation regarding our roots, still are not being provided all the information surrounding the civil war and while they might not be committed racists, thereโs still a racist undercurrent throughout the country that needs to be actively fought. Iโm often noticing my biases against black people and I have incidents in the past that Iโm embarrassed of and I constantly work to improve myself in that arena. It is more than being appalled at what these nincompoops say or do, which is the easy part, itโs fighting the racism in the systems that makes these fucks comfortable saying this shit.
Sodomy "worse than slavery" as in sodomy even in the sense of it being done in a private and consensual context? What an insult to the memory of slaves to believe and say such a thing.
โโโNow this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Their own Bible says they are the ones committing sodomy.
Further Thought: How scared, how utterly terrified of diversity must Wilson and those who back him must be, that they have to get an entire city to conform to their hallucination? I've said it more times than I can count: it's INSECURITY. Their faith is so freaking fragile that they can't tolerate anything resembling alternative thinking, belief, or worst of all, KNOWLEDGE. And on top of everything else, this putsch has a billion-dollar backer.
This BS needs to be stopped IN ITS TRACKS ... and Wilson needs to understand that nothing more of this stripe will be tolerated.
โ๐ผ ๐๐๐โ๐ก ๐ค๐๐๐ก ๐๐๐ฆ ๐๐๐๐ก ๐๐ ๐๐ก,โ ๐๐๐ ๐๐ข๐ ๐๐๐๐ ๐ ๐๐ค๐๐๐ ๐ ๐๐๐ ๐คโ๐๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐ก๐๐๐ฃ๐๐๐ค ๐๐๐๐ข๐ก ๐๐๐๐๐๐ฅโ๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐ก ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ก๐ฆ ๐๐๐๐ข๐๐ ๐๐ก๐๐๐๐ . โ๐โ๐๐ฆโ๐๐ ๐ $1 ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ฆ. ๐โ๐๐ฆ ๐๐ข๐ โ ๐๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐ผ ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐.โ
That's Wilson's first mistake among too many. He tries to push HIS version of Christianity on the entire populace of Battle Ground and he will in fact have a battle on his hands, particularly when business owners take a hike en masse.
Oh, and he wants to "govern unbelievers?!?" Dougie doesn't want to try that with me or with any of the regulars here. We won't take it, and he won't like it if he attempts to force the issue.
Because we don't take crap from ANYONE, least of all Doug Wilson.
What is it with xtians and the constant need for subterfuge to get what they want?
How many times have we said it? They want EVERYONE to agree with them and believe as they do. Wilson said as much. He wants a white-bread, Christian community (if you're a PoC, I would WORRY!), and he wants to push his hallucination across the state.
This SO needs to be nipped in the bud!
I always say to xtians: "You can't even agree with each other. Why do you expect US to agree with you? Come back when you decide which is the "right" sect and can present a united front. THEN we'll discuss."
They're insecure and power hungry ... NOT a healthy combination!
That would be fine if they would just keep their spiritual disagreements between themselves. Unfortunately, they have a tendency to involve unconcerned parties.
Oh, but they have their Great Commission, and they have to tell EVERYONE about Jesus and convert EVERYONE ... mostly so that they don't have to suffer any cognitive dissonance. ๐
"They want EVERYONE to agree with them and believe as they do."
At least in public.
Authoritarians are control freaks - taken to excess, it creates billionaires. But also dysfunctional families and communities. It is also not a stable way to organize communities unless you want a dictatorship. unfortunately they are ascendant in the US as of now.
Not all of us are this way. Some of us experience experience cognitive dissonance watching this happen. We grew up being told one thing and in the last 10 years it completely crumbled with where evangelicals are now, maybe they always were but it wasn't so obvious to me.
I spend time who do want everyone to agree with them and it seems to be mostly fear based for others spending eternity in torture (which I don't actually think the Bible says). If you're interested in an alternative to main stream point of view I would point you to the Voxology Podcast, in particular this episode at this time, https://youtu.be/EfGr29aQi4M?t=204
Well, it's not like walking into a town and saying "I want to be your theocratic dictator" is going to net much popularity.
They have to use subterfuge, because their end goal is just so awful. Heck this guy's goal is so awful he speaks about it in aphorisms even to his own crowd. He's probably got "final solution" written on a napkin somewhere, he's just too smart to share it...yet.
Yep. Completely ignoring jebus when he said:
"And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."
Matthew 10:14
Ignoring what Jesus said is a time-honored Christian tradition, going back to at least 418 AD when St. Augustine decided "turn the other cheek" meant "Just War Theory."
I think these folks are more Reconquista, less New Testament.
They are always hiding their true intentions because they are horrific. Anti-abortion folks have been doing this forever. Eventually, they say the quiet part out loud like, people who have abortions should be in prison or receive the death penalty.
Unless itโs their own (or their daughterโs) abortion - thatโs a totally different thing. Totally.
The subterfuge is so creepy. Those who employ it are predators.
Their own holy book says their deity finds lying detestable.
While filling it with lies.
Because they know that the vast majority of Americans are against what they want.
Because the fundamentalist men are rapists who don't 'do' consent.
It's been that way since Rome.
They very well know that being honest won't get them a thing, and it's not like their Jesus will stop them.
Plausible deniability.
Well, they can't use swords anymore. (For now.)
Because they are deceitful liars.
So sodomy and abortion are compared to slavery but slavery is good so....
Also, I'm going to say it again; if you are against anti-fascists you have told me your position on fascism.
If abortion is as bad as slavery, but "sodomy" is WORSE than slavery, it would follow (from HIS premises, to be clear) that homosexuality is the ultimate sin, ranking above killing a child.
This is not the sort of person you want in charge of law enforcement.
But slavery was a good thing. He said so himself.
That attitude can only ever be held by someone who is certain that they will never be at the receiving end of that policy. They themselves and maybe a few others of their family/tribe.
Just not willing to put himself in it and putting it to a test.
I wonder if he would feel the same way if he was the slave?๐
Wasn't there a joke or a Twilight Zone episode or something where a racist bastard who hates his black neighbour gets granted a wish and wishes for slavery to come back, only to have the tables turned when he becomes the neighbour's slave?
The internal logic is probably: sodomy leaves a spiritual stain on a human. While abortion leaves a spiritual stain on a human's property. And slavery, well, that's just another property thing again.
That this fool thinks he needs government to backstop his religion speaks directly to just how little confidence he really has in his message. Few people disgust me more than those who claim their religion entitles them to make the rules for everyone. No theocracy was ever a bastion of human rights and intellectual freedom.
What needs to happen is that this story needs to get out to the ordinary citizens of Battle Ground, Washington. Make some noise about it and pull back the curtain on Wilson's and Maddox's plans, and it's entirely possible that it'll hit the fan faster than either of those dips can blink.
They think they can pull a fast one. They need to be disabused of that notion.
Far too many of these authoritarian Christians delude themselves into believing everyone will passively submit to being ruled by religion once they take control.
They delude themselves that they are the majority, that most people agree with them.
They live in a bubble.
Yup ... something else they need a wake-up call on!
It may not work in all cases, but if you tell a citizen that their local government is trying something that is severely opposed to their best interests, you will have a ticked-off citizen in the time it takes to read this sentence.
Do that enough times and you have a movement, with thanks and a tip of the chapeau to Arlo Guthrie!
https://youtu.be/m57gzA2JCcM?si=3GXrvltbEFJREiJE
I donโt think they care if we submit. They are going to try and force it.
And when force meets counter-force?
Granted, for what I hear in the comments, Battle Ground is pretty strong MAGA territory. Even then, when someone comes up to you and says, "My way or the highway," in at least a few cases, they'll be pushing a false dichotomy. There's a third choice: RESISTANCE.
And depending on the numbers that do, resistance may NOT be futile.
It's an open question in my mind, whether these fanatics are thinking "If only I am put in charge and get to make all the rules, then peace and prosperity for everyone and puppies and kittens will rain from the sky", or if they just think "If only I am put in charge and get to make all the rules, then I get to be in charge and make all the rules."
โThe church pastor for whom Spiller is building a new chapel has spoken about the importance of โgoverning unbelievers.โโ
Excuse me!?! You donโt get to govern unbelievers with your faith. Your beliefs govern you. Only. Period.
This is how the Mormons have ruled over Utah and Idaho, and are trying to take over the rest of the country.
Hold the line Battle Ground. We are able to fight the data centers, we should be able to fight these religious nutjobs from taking over towns too.
And โunbelieversโ almost certainly includes Catholics, most Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.
Kolob here we come.๐คช
โ๐ ๐๐๐๐๐ฃ๐๐๐๐ ๐ ๐๐๐๐ก๐ข๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐ โ๐ต๐ข๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐ข๐๐ก๐ข๐๐ ๐๐ โ๐๐ ๐ก๐๐๐ ๐ก๐๐๐๐๐ก๐๐๐ฆโ
"Live and let live" is not hostility. Unless you're a control freak. (Which they are.)
โ๐ฝ๐ข๐ ๐ก ๐๐๐ ๐กโ๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐, ๐๐๐ข๐ ๐๐ ๐ฆ๐๐ข ๐๐ ๐๐๐ก ๐ค๐๐๐ก ๐ก๐ ๐๐๐ก ๐กโ๐ ๐๐ข๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐ค ๐๐ข๐ ๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ก๐๐๐๐ ๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐ฆ๐๐ ๐ก๐ ๐กโ๐๐ ๐๐๐๐ก๐๐๐,โ ๐ ๐๐๐ ๐ถ๐๐ข๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐ฆ ๐๐๐ถ๐๐ฆ ๐๐๐ก๐๐ ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐ฃ๐๐ก๐๐ ๐๐๐ก ๐ก๐ ๐๐ข๐๐๐๐๐๐ฆ ๐ โ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ ๐ก ๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ฃ๐๐๐ ๐๐๐๐ ๐๐๐ก๐ฆ ๐๐ก๐ก๐๐๐๐๐ฆ๐ ๐๐๐ก๐๐ ๐กโ๐ ๐๐ ๐ ๐ข๐ ๐๐๐๐ ๐ข๐ ๐๐๐ ๐ก ๐ฆ๐๐๐.
Goodness that's bad. But with the organizer's deep pockets, I expect his plan is to simply pay out for sealed settlements for the inevitable lawsuits.
I guess my only response to that is: keep the lawsuits coming, one after another.
Again, ignoring the jebus he loves to hate.
Matthew 10:14
โYouโll know weโre christians by our loveโฆโ
Of power and money.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fthere-is-no-hate-quite-like-christian-love-v0-drtbtjik5nbc1.jpeg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dd56ff82c6af7b790cd68b04899cef0aa5b59539e
Isn't their Jesus supposed to bring them peace and comfort?
I thought he said he came not to bring peace, but a sword. Seems he meant it.
Living in next door in Vancouver, WA and often traveling through Battle Ground, this doesn't surprise me. That town is MAGA central and during the pandemic it had loony anti-vaxers out protesting on the main routes in town. Not only that, it also has far too many neo-nazi racist militia members who openly have confederate flags and Nazi flags flying on their lawns. On top of that, along Interstate 5 you can see an infamous display of flag poles flying confederate flags and various militia flags.
Battle Ground is a place that most of us in Clark County try to avoid whenever possible.
Confederate and Nazi flags combined with Christian theocracy. Honestly, maybe we should let it happen. The town can serve as an object lesson of where they *really* want to go with it.
Sometimes, the best argument you can make against your opponent is to simply hand them the mic.
Having run into a few of these nut jobs, I have mixed feelings about that since these goons dole out death threats like it's second nature to them.
Southern Washington tends to be conservative like the eastern part of the state, so I'm not too surprised.
Having said that, I'm appalled that it's happening in my blue state at all.
I'm appalled that it's happening in my country.
I think you're in pretty good company on that one!
Don't be quite so glib about this. Vancouver itself is experiencing a ton of growth, lots of people moving from more repressive regions of the country. With Vancouver's population, Clark county is getting to be closer to purple. (Lewis and Cowlitz counties are very red, though.) That said, it's not news to those of us who live here that the NE part of the county is a nest of religious conservativism. Patriot Prayer started further out in the county and there has been a sizable population of Evangelistic Apostolic Lutherans for quite a while. A number of long term larger companies are run by EAL believers. It could get interesting if the two groups have disagreements.
"...slavery was a net positive because it โproduced in the South a genuine affection between the races.โ
I. Don't. Think. So.
Slaves did NOT have a "safe word" to stop overseers from whipping them when it was no longer "genuine affection".
This made me truely want to vomit. I studied the slave trade and slavey in high school (in the late 90s, Australia) and it left me sickened.
It makes me wonder where these people were educated. Not that my own country's education system didn't then and doesn't have massive hole is the teaching of our history either. But to think slavery was positive or bought any kind of equanimity is too far of a stretch.
Well, since we are living in the country that thought slavery was a good economic strategy, these folks were taught here. Where the powers that be thought slavery was a good thing to do. The states that utilized slavery the most still promote false claims regarding slavery that have been thoroughly debunked for over a hundred years. These people are so bigoted, uneducated, and steeped in โheritage not hateโ propaganda that this type of thinking is normal. Now, these guys being born and raised in Washington state seem to be far removed from the propaganda, but their Christian nationalist churches have roots in the south and seek to spread the propaganda to bring the slavery back. We really needed to root out the thinking by actually punishing the traitors after the civil war and stomp out Jim Crow before it took hold. But we wanted to placate the white southerners to keep the economy they built going.
Even the folks in the USA that arenโt so bigoted and exposed to the worst of the miseducation regarding our roots, still are not being provided all the information surrounding the civil war and while they might not be committed racists, thereโs still a racist undercurrent throughout the country that needs to be actively fought. Iโm often noticing my biases against black people and I have incidents in the past that Iโm embarrassed of and I constantly work to improve myself in that arena. It is more than being appalled at what these nincompoops say or do, which is the easy part, itโs fighting the racism in the systems that makes these fucks comfortable saying this shit.
They are educated in their church.
I mean, most of them also attended a public school, but THIS sort of garbage, they're getting from their religious communities.
We had over 600 local people at the last No Kings. Please don't abandon hope for us in BG.
Better call Obi-Wan Kenobi. May the force be with you. : )
Ummm ... What's the area code for "A galaxy far, far away?" ๐
There's lots of different ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_filming_locations
The Taliban would approve.
The Taliban probably stole Wilson's playbook ... or he stole theirs!
Sodomy "worse than slavery" as in sodomy even in the sense of it being done in a private and consensual context? What an insult to the memory of slaves to believe and say such a thing.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 NIV (New International Version)
โโโNow this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Their own Bible says they are the ones committing sodomy.
Further Thought: How scared, how utterly terrified of diversity must Wilson and those who back him must be, that they have to get an entire city to conform to their hallucination? I've said it more times than I can count: it's INSECURITY. Their faith is so freaking fragile that they can't tolerate anything resembling alternative thinking, belief, or worst of all, KNOWLEDGE. And on top of everything else, this putsch has a billion-dollar backer.
This BS needs to be stopped IN ITS TRACKS ... and Wilson needs to understand that nothing more of this stripe will be tolerated.
"Building culture in hostile territory."
We've repeatedly seen the hostility of xtians. More projection by the "Religion of Love."
Building hostility in a cultured territory.
I just found a new way to describe MAGA nutcases. The "Strategic moron reserve." I stole it straight away of course so I could post it here.
Restolen!