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oraxx's avatar

I have some sympathy for his case, but the real problem here lies with governmental meetings opening with ANY kind of invocation. The founders did not give religion any role to play in government, and that was not an accidental omission. It's high time for conservative Christians to be banned from marking their territory in the public square.

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Pale Blue Dot's avatar

You pretty much said what I was going to say. I applaud any atheist or religiously unaffiliated person who publicly advocates for equality in such a hostile environment. It takes a level of bravery that I'm not sure I possess. However the main issue here is that invocations are just plain stupid. They accomplish nothing and have always been, as you said, a way to mark territory and force others to adopt a submissive stance unless they want to risk becoming a target of religious fanatics who will then double down with legislation that works even more in their favor.

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Julie Duggan's avatar

Exactly

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JohnH's avatar

I largely agree with this take. I also believe that invocations to open meetings of any government body are improper, but that’s not exactly a hill I’d choose to die on. Also, if members of this board are free to walk out on Mr Williams’s invocations, then Mr Williams is also free to walk out on any theist invocation which he’d prefer not to hear.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Yes, nothing like them doing their territorial pissing in public thing, that they do.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"Sovereign immunity?" Didn't know we were a monarchy.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Some seem to regret this time, believing in it like they believe in their mythical 50's.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

They are adamantly against the one thing that made the 50s better, what made living in the nuclear family functional, what gave folks like them security and stability, taxing corporations and the wealthy. They confused the racism, misogyny and general xenophobia with the reason the middle class was thriving, when it really was the government was better funded and functional because of it. So the social safety nets were cast and caught folks from falling through cracks. So middle class white families could live like on tv, to an extent, and not worry about making ends meet.

But then the others showed up, demanding their fair share. And the corporations and robber Barons that were in hiding couldn’t take it anymore so they came up with shit like trickle down economics and stock buybacks and all kinds of shit that’s only legal because of their lobbying power (cold hard cash in pockets of politicians). The racism of the average Joe overwhelmed their sense of community and self preservation, because if they have to share welfare with the black population, they’d rather not have it at all. Or the idea that they can eliminate the black population altogether (you know, since they can’t make them work for free) by denying them access to basic human needs like healthcare and food, and the education required to enable them to attain those things for themselves.

I don’t want the racism, but the taxation seems right.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

— President Lyndon B. Johnson

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Yes, he was a southerner and knew his peers. And the white-trash cousins everywhere.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Jordan Klepper often interviewed people who say that America was great in the 1950s, he then points out that it wasn't so great for women or minorities. But that doesn't seem to bother them very much.

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Bagen Onuts's avatar

50's was horrible as I was just coming to grips with my budding homosexuality.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Ah yes, the time of the so-called nuclear family "documented" in TV shows like Father Knows Best.

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Len Koz's avatar

Too many people base their knowledge of history on TV shows. They think America was like Father Knows Best and that our ancestors used to work with a brontosaurus in the quarry, then go home to their wife, their baby daughter, and their pet dinosaur.

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Psittacus Ebrius's avatar

We must not forget the Cartwrights - Ben, Adam, Hoss, and Li'l Joe. Virtuous and pious. Their world was black or white, nothing gray.

If people want to base their knowledge of history on TV shows, they should probably start with Deadwood and all those c***suckers.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

I remember the early Bonanza. Adam and Little Joe didn't get along at first. They had some nasty things to say to each other.

And the 3 sons all had the same father but 3 different mothers. Seems marrying Ben Cartwright was akin to a death sentence.

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Whitney's avatar

Seems to me it's more a reflection of how common dying in childbirth was at the time. Something that changed when Roe vs. Wade came down, and now it's changing again just for the worse this time.

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Psittacus Ebrius's avatar

Did you ever notice that the four main characters never changed their clothes?

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

For any of the Cartwright men, their girlfriends always died convienently before the episode was over.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

I loved Deadwood. Very well written and no glorification and sanitization of the times.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Not to mention a wife wearing a dress and pearls to do the dishes (Leave it to Beaver).

The Life of Riley had a nuclear family set up (husband/father, wife/mother, son and daughter) but undermined that set up by concentrating on the endless buffoonery of the title character.

And Ozzie & Harriet was a sham from the outset. Ozzie Nelson was portrayed as a genial guy, but the reality behind-the-scenes was vastly different. He was a tough taskmaster who controlled every aspect of his sons lives. David and Rick wanted to go to college. Their father wanted them to work in show business. The boys couldn't relate to some of what was in their scripts. Said David: "Malt shops? That's what Pop remembers. We went to drive-ins."

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

I had to explain to my nephew that "Happy Days" wasn't real.

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Bill Lawrence's avatar

'Mythical' is the word for it. People only seem to remember that they were on top in the '50s, forgetting everything else. Just like the delusionals who insist that 'things were better' during the four years of Trump chaos and corruption. We --and I mean all of us--are in a far better place than we were in the '50s.

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larry parker's avatar

The USA didn't become great until September 15, 1961. ; )

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Maltnothops's avatar

Jack Nicklaus winning something?

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larry parker's avatar

Dan Marino was born.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Let's see. Kennedy was sworn in in January the same year. The bay of pigs invasion was in April. Nobody went back in time to murder drumpster. I am at a loss.

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larry parker's avatar

https://www.onthisday.com/date/1961/september/15

I don't know why my birth wasn't mentioned? Must be an oversight.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

You want something cool ?

https://www.cousteau.org/legacy/vessels/calypso/

"In June, 1951, Cousteau decided to put the ship in the water and run her first trials off Corsica."

DM was about one month old 😎

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Matri's avatar

The 1750's?

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

Is some moistened bint going around lobbing scimitars?

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NOGODZ20's avatar

No sword-wielding watery tarts in Wyoming.

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

This is very poetic.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Sword-wielding watery tarts? Stole it from Monty Python and slightly reworded it. 😃

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

That's only because we don't have water and prefer guns.

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Joe King's avatar

Last I went through Wyoming, I didn't see any lakes for some aquatic ceremony. Had to be a horse tossing a revolver or something.

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

I was driving cross-country once and overnighted in Cheyenne at a hotel that was hosting the International Cowboy Symposium, if I remember correctly. They were slightly scary because armed frequently but they did give me a shit ton of bagels because they weren't eating them. There were actually a fair amount of international cowboys.

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

Do you remember when and where?

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

I didn't realize it was a city-wide thing, I thought they were having meetings in the conference rooms discussing the shared problems of cowboys. I was imagining some Annie Proulx scenarios rather than torturing young animals.

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

I learned it's called this now, but I have no clue what hotel we stayed in. This was like 2004, I think. https://www.cheyenne.org/asset-request/detail/cheyenne-cowboy-symposium/568d975f8710e47b4f989797/

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

Thanks, I'm not familiar with it. I moved here in 2007.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I wonder if there were manadiers from Camargue https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manade

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Let me guess, they were all on a low-carb diet to watch their weight?

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

Lol I don't think that was a thing yet, but they seemed to be enjoying the bacon.

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Richard S. Russell's avatar

Simple misspelling. They meant "soviet impunity".

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painedumonde's avatar

I said, what does God need with a Constitution anyway?

Jim!

C'mon Bones, Creator of the Universe?! He don't need no law...

Written by Christians, enacted by Christians, enforced by Christians, interpreted by Christians...

Not yet, not today. I don't what it will take for the majority of the people on this planet to at least question their beliefs about a supernatural realm, but we're stuck with it until that happens...

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Old Man Shadow's avatar

If you don't have the right sort of cleric cast the protection from evil spell, then devils might just end up possessing the Parks department employees or something... demonic pot hole patches... do you want demonic pot hole patches? Because this is how you get demonic pot hole patches, atheists.

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ericc's avatar

𝑑𝑜 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑤𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝑑𝑒𝑚𝑜𝑛𝑖𝑐 𝑝𝑜𝑡 ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑒 𝑝𝑎𝑡𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑠?

Always!

It's why I put a stick pentagram into the pothole before I fill it with new asphalt. The stick may disintegrate, but the symbol remains. That way every one who drives over it commits an act of satanic obeisance.

Think on that, fundies, next time you go out for a Sunday drive.

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Len Koz's avatar

You make me want to show up to give an invocation dressed as a cleric of Hextor.

https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Hextor

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

🤣😂🤣

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AlbertCamus's avatar

“sovereign immunity” ? Just no words.

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Joe King's avatar

Works like qualified immunity for cops.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

And both are terrible ideas that belong on the underside of an outhouse at a chili convention.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I would need some clarification here. So if a Wyoming city violated the Etablishment Clause, the only recourse would be to appellate to the state legislature ? What are the chances of success ? Wouldn't such a system allow discrimination even if no one except for Mr Williams seem to complain ?

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Joe King's avatar

There are two sets of laws and courts here. He appealed to the highest 𝘞𝘺𝘰𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘨 court. He can still sue in US District court. The problem he ran into with the state level lawsuit is Wyoming has a law requiring the state legislature to sign off on lawsuits involving violations of the state constitution. And, Wyoming being Wyoming, that's a dead end.

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Alverant's avatar

Reminds me of the SCOTUS justification for keeping Trump on the ballot despite participating in an insurrection.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

So once again federal law is above state law, unless it's deemed a bother ?

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Joe King's avatar

Pretty much. It's an uphill battle against Christian Fucking Privilege either way.

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Tinker's avatar

He's suing based on the Wyoming constitution. The US courts have little jurisdiction about that. This happens when a state constitution has more defined freedoms than the US Constitution. As it happens here the US Constitution just talks about government establishing religion whereas the State says “The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship without discrimination or preference shall be forever guaranteed in this state.” Which is much more explicit than the US Constitution.

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ericc's avatar

Yeah, the ruling seems ripe for discrimination via selective enforcement. No way they leave it up to the legislature to fire, discipline, or fix some executive branch wrongdoing the next time some public official defrauds their office of $ thousands or millions "while on the job." Or for any other government-embarrassing criminal act. They'll selectively drop back to 'leave it to the legislature' only when they want to defend some questionable action. Some conservative violating the civil rights of some unpopular minority or something like that.

On the other hand, Mr. Williams did not hand them a great test case. The award is ridiculous and paints him as a plaintiff more concerned about making a buck off a government mistake rather than getting the mistake fixed. Here's hoping that if he pursues the federal option, that he brings in ACLU or FFRF or an outfit like that to help him craft the argument and an appropriate remedy. Something like "procedures for selecting invocation speakers shall be written down, followed as written, and provide equal opportunity access for all local citizens rather than defaulting to the use of any specific religious (or non-religious) organization.'

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

Do you think any of those groups would take his case? I don't. He's already proven himself to be concerned with damages to a degree that makes me believe he may not listen to counsel. I think there's a test case here somewhere, but not with him .

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

In Floriduh, we don't need to get permission to sue cities, counties, or even the state. But (humongous but) if you are awarded anything over $200k, then the legislature and governor must sign off on it before you can collect. Needless to say, that is an uphill battle.

$𝟏.𝟐𝐌 𝐝𝐞𝐚𝐥 𝐟𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐏𝐚𝐬𝐜𝐨 𝐦𝐚𝐧 𝐢𝐧𝐣𝐮𝐫𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐧 𝟐𝟎𝟎𝟔 𝐬𝐜𝐡𝐨𝐨𝐥 𝐛𝐮𝐬 𝐜𝐫𝐚𝐬𝐡

Florida lawmakers did not approve the bill needed to authorize the payment.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/12m-deal-falls-through-for-pasco-man-injured-in-2006-school-bus-crash/ar-BB1jz2UE

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clairence's avatar

I agree with you; I don't think he had a very compelling argument.

What I take issue with is an invocation being an "official act". This seems to place religion straight into government.

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Joe King's avatar

Which is exactly what that city council wants to do.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

This is yet another clarion call to do away with invocations at civil, secular doings altogether.

They are divisive, ineffective and serve no purpose whatsoever.

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Kay-El's avatar

Sovereign immunity = we don’t have to play by the rules like everyone else. Sovereign citizenry = we don’t have to play by the rules like everyone else. Except the latter never wins in court.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"

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Rachel Baldes's avatar

I agree with your assessment of this case. I understand his frustration on many levels but he's grasping in others. He's also behaving in some ways like he has the ability to determine intent when he clearly can't, and while I sympathize with his feelings, I disagree with his approach.

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larry parker's avatar

OT: "Apparently I'm stupid," Trump Jr. declared. "I'm a Putin apologist and a Russia lover."

I agree.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Especially about the stupid part. Like father, like son.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

They come 𝘴𝘰 close to self-awareness sometimes...

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larry parker's avatar

To be fair, he was trying to be sarcastic, but he sucks at that too.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Sarcasm, like all humor involves intellect. Theye never get parody, or satire, either.

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Kiwiwriter47's avatar

Given that Gerrit Cole and Aaron Judge are hurt, Blake Snell, Trevor Bauer, and Jordan Montgomery won't join the Yankees, Juan Soto is a one-year rental, the Yankee 2024 season is a write-off.

And the endless Presidential Election is another horror.

It's almost enough to make one turn to an Omnipotent Celestial Being to Intervene to restore goodness and order.

Only that won't happen, because there isn't one.

So what the heck is wrong with an atheist invocation?

I want this outfit to let me deliver an invocation for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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Len Koz's avatar

And Saquon Barkley signed with the Eagles. WTF?

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Kiwiwriter47's avatar

Good point...forgot about that, not being a football fan.

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Joan the Dork's avatar

Remind me to stock up on boxes labeled "Not Joan" before some idiot techbro turns Skynet loose.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

That may be where the Marines got the idea from.

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larry parker's avatar

Metal Gear Solid, maybe. That's my guess.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Artificial Intelligence isn't so intelligent if it falls for cheap tricks by mere humans. :)

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I think we have a case of jousting against windmills here. Sure, I support Williams' right to deliver a secular invocation, but $24 million? My sense here is that he's at least as interested in getting a nice payday as he is in exercising his rights.

Sorry, Bruce, but I ain't havin' any.

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Alverant's avatar

How much should he have sued for? I think most of that 24 mil was punitive damages, something to make them think twice before doing it again.

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ericc's avatar

He should have sued to get a change in procedure implemented plus court costs for bringing the suit. Having to pay for his lawyers' time is plenty enough punitive - particularly since fundie Christian city and school boards tend to fight these cases much much longer than they should, racking up the plaintiff bills as they do.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

I just found out that what's his face Kennedy was looking at Jesse Ventura for VP. At least he's on the shortlist. Wasn't he elected governor of somewhere? Does anyone know how he did?

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

RFK, Jr. is also apparently looking at Aaron Rodgers for VP. Not sure you, as a non-American, would be familiar with who that is. Let's just say, at least in this case, ignorance is bliss.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Apparently he's approached both Rogers and Ventura. Ventura I know Rogers I had to google he's an American football player of some sort. Other than that I'm not especially interested. But from what I can gather both of them have reacted positively.

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larry parker's avatar

Yes, Ventura was Governor of Minnesota. I actually lived up there for a couple of years when he was Governor.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Not Ace Ventura ?

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Matri's avatar

Allllll 𝑅𝐼𝐺𝐻𝑇𝑌 then...

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

Non! :)

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Daniel Rotter's avatar

"What's his face"-Robert Kennedy, Jr.

"Does anyone know how he (Jesse Ventura) did?" Because it was a rare competitive three-way race between a Democrat, a Republican and someone not of either of the two major parties (JV, in this case), he managed to eke out a win with 37% of the vote.

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Guerillasurgeon's avatar

I was wondering what sort of a governor he made – someone on another site said he was reasonably ineffectual but then I only know him from Predator. And he's supposed to have sued someone he shouldn't have something something something.

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Ethereal fairy Natalie's avatar

Ammosexual dude claimed to have beat Ventura up in a bar fight that none of the other guys that were there remember. it was more of his lies that he made up to sell his book.

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

38th governor of Minnesota for one term.

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Maltnothops's avatar

I agree with Hemant that the electeds have every right to walk out of any invocation. One of my local govts made a point of starting meetings with a prayer, usually Christian, and I made a point, if I happened to be there, of not bowing my head, not being attentive, and, usually, fiddling around on my phone.

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wreck's avatar

On the one hand, it seems like he's pissing into the wind. On the other hand,...um,...it's nice to have a hobby?

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"If you spit in the air, it will land in your face."

-- Tevye. "Fiddler on the Roof"

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

️🎵 You don't tug on Superman's cape

You don't spit into the wind

You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger

And you don't mess around with Jim ️🎵

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jx-B5wbKOQ

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

We know wind here. There have been several times I've been passed by debris (pizza box, tin can, plastic cups, etc.) while driving

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NOGODZ20's avatar

"We know wind here."

Do you perchance call it Maria?

https://youtu.be/ByqYEzugleE

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Zorginipsoundsor's avatar

Why didn't you go with the Adam Cartwright/Trapper John version. It even has CC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRFqgZQZ-VE

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NOGODZ20's avatar

3 separate thoughts...

* Didn't know this existed. Thanks for putting me on to it.

* Boy, the Ponderosa just kept getting bigger and bigger.

* Hard to believe the whole cast is gone now.

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