"The Catholic Church opposed the bill, preferring instead to watch patients suffer for as long as possible."
This is the church of the Ghoul of Kolkata. The one they canonized. While she was alive, she saw suffering as beautiful yet had no patience for her own suffering. While those under her "care" suffered in poverty, she flew first class to both Europe and the USA to receive the finest care science, technology and modern medicine could provide.
Just like the current pope. When he's ailing, prayer goes out the window and he gets top-notch medical treatment for his ills. Seems suffering is only beautiful to them when it's happening to someone else.
Same as it ever was. There was a local couple that let their kid die from not treating her juvenile diabetes, because their religion was against medical intervention. Yet their baby-sitter was quoted as saying she not only went to the hospital to birth her, she had epidurals and all the pain relief she could get.
As a stage 4 cancer patient, I'm very thankful to live in a state that has such a law. I feel very far from needing it, chemo is going great and scans are clear so far, but knowing the option is there if/when I might need it is comforting. The legal weed helps too.
I hope you beat this and enjoy many more years of life (and the legal weed). My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately, she did not opt for "natural" remedies. The UK had approved a new treatment just as she finished radiotherapy and she finished that earlier this year bumping her 10-year survival rate to just over 80%.
As soon as she was diagnosed, I immediately went into defense mode. She is very much susceptible to the Appeal to Nature fallacy. She had a friend some years ago who went the "natural" route and died, so that saved me the from having that battle. However, her brother is deep into that shit and has expressed a lot of disappointment and applied a lot of pressure on her to switch.
I am hopeful for you as well. And I hope you have a good support network around you, it will make a huge difference to your life as well.
Interesting, but not surprising, to see the highest levels of support for the death with dignity bill from the sandwich generation and the generation they're caring for. I've watched both my parents and my MIL die slow, painful deaths by inches. I listened to my MIL crying to be moved to hospice just so she could refuse all treatment, including food and hydration, which is a horrible way to go. Anyone who's watched a loved one suffer like that knows that 'life' isn't worth a plug nickel at that point; it's just forcing people to go through needless agony so OTHER PEOPLE can have a clear conscience.
We don't make our dearly loved pets suffer the kind of torture the law requires from people. That's NEVER made any sense to me. If humane euthanasia is a gift we can give our dying furry family members, why in the hell are we prevented doing the same for our human loved ones. Especially when those humans are begging us for help.
All the best to the UK for being brave enough to tackle this issue on a nationwide scale. It's long overdue. Just because we can live longer lives, doesn't always mean those lives are worth living. Or wanted.
Tell me about it. I grew up catholic. Took years to break that indoctrination. It's just plain sick to claim that 'god loves you' and in the next breath 'god wants you to suffer. To the bitter end.'
I grew up in a non-religious environment, then switched and became a christian just on the cusp of becoming a teenager. Talk about a double whammy. The indoctrination is insidious and pervasive. The constant immersion convinces you that "this is what I should do" and it roots itself in the mind. It took me a couple of decades and becoming a skeptic to shake the overt stuff, but there are still some leftover things from being a self-hating, angsty teen.
Religion is like deep brain thrombosis: it creates self-loathing that clogs your brain and neural pathways for years.
That's the most incisive commentary on the effects of religious indoctrination I've heard, Sean. If there's any life stage more vulnerable to religious capture than the very young, it has to be those on the cusp of adulthood. 'Deep brain thrombosis' is a brilliant description.
It's taken a lot of research and connecting a lot of different things to finally reach this point.
I literally just came up with "deep brain thrombosis." I recently watched a video that mentioned deep vein thrombosis and my brain was like "insert brain and make it work." I'll have to reward my brain with some chocolate.
The "pro-life" crowd predictably opposes legislation like this. They would rather 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘭𝘰𝘯𝘨 someone's life and suffering than allow any dignity in their death. They even will go against their God's will to keep someone alive well beyond the time they would have died from natural causes.
The asinine Terri Shiavo case comes to my mind. It is the most heart wrenching thing to witness but after a point the parents made themselves the issue not their daughter. This was 15 years in a comatose state! I’m sure she was a beautiful young lady (26 years old) but what an incredible cruelty to her. This should NEVER have been allowed..maybe a year or more to try to exhaust every possibility…this was an extreme misuse of hospital care.
I expect many religious authorities will oppose this bill as it conflicts with the idea suffering is part of God's plan. Mother Theresa certainly loved suffering. She did next to nothing to prevent it. If a person is mentally capable of making a rational decision to end a life that has no chance of ever getting better, then I don't see where the government's interests lie. Who benefits from keeping a terminally ill person alive who is suffering with no chance of recovery?
Just as a means of clarification, this excerpt from an article which explains why the 'single payer' concept floated by Bernie Sanders and his followers isn't workable, and also about how NOT much different health care is in other countries:
Of further note is the fact that despite the rhetoric of the proponents of forced Medicare about the universal health care models of other developed nations, not a single one has one that looks like what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are proposing: coverage for essentially everything (primary care to deluxe care to long term care, medical to dental and vision) through one, single, national government payer. That simply is not the case anywhere in the world (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html ).
In France, everyone is required to buy health insurance (individual mandate) which are sold by private nonprofit funds, and that insurance covers, like Medicare, about 70-80% of costs. Most French citizens also have voluntary private insurance akin to Medigap. Switzerland’s plan most closely resembles Obamacare, with the country requiring everyone to buy insurance offered by private insurance companies under strong community rating and guaranteed issue provisions to keep premiums down. In Germany, private insurance is available. Singapore’s public insurance only covers primary care, leaving most other things to health savings accounts and private insurance. Israel ( https://international.commonwealthfund.org/countries/israel/ )has a highly subsidized nonprofit health insurance model in which health plans are mandated to provide coverage determined by the government.
Even in Canada, the system of the most fascination of US single-payer advocates, the public health insurance system does not cover prescription drugs, dental, or vision care - highly regulated private insurance takes care of those. And each of Canada’s provinces run their own public insurance system, rather than the federal government running a single system.
I saw this reported in the New York Times yesterday and discussed on Atheist Universe. From my point of view, it is great news that now, people in the UK whose lives have become more torturous than joyful, owing to pernicious disease or disorder, can take action to end their suffering. I can't help but notice that, by comparison, there are only a handful of states in the US that afford their citizens the same right, and that people actually will move to those states and take up residence, so that they can benefit from that isolated value.
Doubtless the Vatican and Pope Frankie will scream bloody murder (!) at this turn. All they do with their caterwauling is demonstrate their utter lack of both understanding and empathy for those who deal with painful and terminal conditions.
Baby steps. When end of life came to my state, it took two weeks to get the meds. It still takes two doctors, but our politicians came to the realization that the in-person meetings could be handled by Zoom (perhaps the only good thing to come out of Covid), and now the wait is down to a week. Things move slowly, but they move. There are many who take advantage of the meds, and many who, once they have the meds, go one more day without until they die naturally. I see death with dignity the same as I see abortion--if you don't want it, don't have it!
I used to care for a lot of Hospice patients and encountered the 'suffering-is-good-for-the-soul' crowd a lot. As a life-long atheist, I think a well-lived life followed by as painless a death possible is the goal. I felt mildly euphoric drugs at the end were a kindness. Almost nobody has to die in agony any more unless they are maybe in a Catholic hospital. When death is inevitable, there should be widely agreed upon protocols for terminal care.
To me the soul is your feelings and your thoughts, your dreams and preferences, what makes you you, your identity. Nothing mystical, just the "magic" of being alive.
I could never understand that "suffering is good" mentality. For what? More rewards in heaven? If god existed, wouldn't he see into your heart of hearts and know you were only in it for the rewards?
Is it for posterity? Life is already hard enough without also suffering terminal ailments. Do these people also take ibuprofen for headaches or sore muscles? If so, that's hypocritical. Taking any medication or having surgery would also be hypocritical.
I feel like religions are out to cause as much suffering as possible. The only folks who are able to avoid suffering are those that have been successful in grabbing power over the church. And some that have power over government.
The right and the church choosing the heartless option once again. Quelle surprise.
Yes a wonderful move. I think assisted dying is a great idea especially for those whose quality of life be that physically or mentally is a nightmare every waking moment. And of course the Catholic Church opposes it! Please save it about how only God put us on this Earth and only God can let us die b-sh. Another fairy tale those suffering un- needfully must endure because of men and because of The Bible. I hope I will have that choice. Another "My Body My Choice" auguement. Bravo England. Beer on the house for all UK politicians today. Catholic Church why dont you shut the fk up and sit the fk down.
The same thing is happening here in B.C. A terrible waste of money. I'm guessing the woman will win. Times have changed and Catholicism in Canada is collapsing... at last.
I was a "victim" of Catholicism for 20 years of my life. I finally "saw the light" and now I'm an Atheist. I feel very strongly about the ability of taking my own life. I have already told my kids, that if I ever lose my eyesight, I will definitely commit suicide. Friends and family insist life would still be worth living. Well, NO it wouldn't. Catholicism is a scourge.
I guess for religious kooks, the one who suffers the most is guaranteed to win that trip to heaven. I’d rather be in control of my own body and decide when the time is right. I don’t worry about missing a chance to meet my maker. Both my folks have since passed on.
Sure. This is why martyrs are still venerated in the Catholic Church. Always seemed like a waste of good people to me; at least concerning those who chose martyrdom.
"The Catholic Church opposed the bill, preferring instead to watch patients suffer for as long as possible."
This is the church of the Ghoul of Kolkata. The one they canonized. While she was alive, she saw suffering as beautiful yet had no patience for her own suffering. While those under her "care" suffered in poverty, she flew first class to both Europe and the USA to receive the finest care science, technology and modern medicine could provide.
Just like the current pope. When he's ailing, prayer goes out the window and he gets top-notch medical treatment for his ills. Seems suffering is only beautiful to them when it's happening to someone else.
Spot on NOGODZ20 !
My thanks.
Same as it ever was. There was a local couple that let their kid die from not treating her juvenile diabetes, because their religion was against medical intervention. Yet their baby-sitter was quoted as saying she not only went to the hospital to birth her, she had epidurals and all the pain relief she could get.
As a stage 4 cancer patient, I'm very thankful to live in a state that has such a law. I feel very far from needing it, chemo is going great and scans are clear so far, but knowing the option is there if/when I might need it is comforting. The legal weed helps too.
May your suffering be slight, your recovery rapid.
Wishing you all the best for your treatment, Cateck. I hope you have lots of life left to live.
I hope you beat this and enjoy many more years of life (and the legal weed). My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately, she did not opt for "natural" remedies. The UK had approved a new treatment just as she finished radiotherapy and she finished that earlier this year bumping her 10-year survival rate to just over 80%.
I love hearing these stories. Thank you for that. The outlook seemed so bleak when I got the stage 4 diagnosis. But I’m hopeful.
You're welcome.
As soon as she was diagnosed, I immediately went into defense mode. She is very much susceptible to the Appeal to Nature fallacy. She had a friend some years ago who went the "natural" route and died, so that saved me the from having that battle. However, her brother is deep into that shit and has expressed a lot of disappointment and applied a lot of pressure on her to switch.
I am hopeful for you as well. And I hope you have a good support network around you, it will make a huge difference to your life as well.
Catek, my mother-in-law had stage four cancer 16 years ago. I thought the worst was inevitable. Last week she celebrated her 91st birthday!
Wow, that's inspirational!
Catek, I’m with you on this. We should treat people as humanely as possible, not follow stone age dictates.
Interesting, but not surprising, to see the highest levels of support for the death with dignity bill from the sandwich generation and the generation they're caring for. I've watched both my parents and my MIL die slow, painful deaths by inches. I listened to my MIL crying to be moved to hospice just so she could refuse all treatment, including food and hydration, which is a horrible way to go. Anyone who's watched a loved one suffer like that knows that 'life' isn't worth a plug nickel at that point; it's just forcing people to go through needless agony so OTHER PEOPLE can have a clear conscience.
We don't make our dearly loved pets suffer the kind of torture the law requires from people. That's NEVER made any sense to me. If humane euthanasia is a gift we can give our dying furry family members, why in the hell are we prevented doing the same for our human loved ones. Especially when those humans are begging us for help.
All the best to the UK for being brave enough to tackle this issue on a nationwide scale. It's long overdue. Just because we can live longer lives, doesn't always mean those lives are worth living. Or wanted.
> "it's just forcing people to go through needless agony so OTHER PEOPLE can have a clear conscience."
Nailed it. 🔨
Catholicism is all about suffering. Protestantism is just a few degrees off that. A bit more progressive, but still a religion.
Tell me about it. I grew up catholic. Took years to break that indoctrination. It's just plain sick to claim that 'god loves you' and in the next breath 'god wants you to suffer. To the bitter end.'
I grew up in a non-religious environment, then switched and became a christian just on the cusp of becoming a teenager. Talk about a double whammy. The indoctrination is insidious and pervasive. The constant immersion convinces you that "this is what I should do" and it roots itself in the mind. It took me a couple of decades and becoming a skeptic to shake the overt stuff, but there are still some leftover things from being a self-hating, angsty teen.
Religion is like deep brain thrombosis: it creates self-loathing that clogs your brain and neural pathways for years.
That's the most incisive commentary on the effects of religious indoctrination I've heard, Sean. If there's any life stage more vulnerable to religious capture than the very young, it has to be those on the cusp of adulthood. 'Deep brain thrombosis' is a brilliant description.
Thanks. :)
It's taken a lot of research and connecting a lot of different things to finally reach this point.
I literally just came up with "deep brain thrombosis." I recently watched a video that mentioned deep vein thrombosis and my brain was like "insert brain and make it work." I'll have to reward my brain with some chocolate.
You've definitely earned some chocolate!
Sean, so true! And developing suspicions about other people if they dare get a break in life. The whole sinner mindset is quite stupid.
That's the thing about christianity. Any "failure" is your fault, and every success is only possible through god.
How can we say a right is a right if you cannot waive the right. If we can’t choose to end our lives, life is a duty, an obligation, not a right.
Those who wield phrases like "right to life" are usually just weaponizing it against others.
Perfectly stated.
The "pro-life" crowd predictably opposes legislation like this. They would rather 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘭𝘰𝘯𝘨 someone's life and suffering than allow any dignity in their death. They even will go against their God's will to keep someone alive well beyond the time they would have died from natural causes.
It's really all about control for them.
👆👆👆👆👆👆🎯They aren't Pro-life they are pro-suffering, and a hideous death cult. They love war, and torture, and executions.
The asinine Terri Shiavo case comes to my mind. It is the most heart wrenching thing to witness but after a point the parents made themselves the issue not their daughter. This was 15 years in a comatose state! I’m sure she was a beautiful young lady (26 years old) but what an incredible cruelty to her. This should NEVER have been allowed..maybe a year or more to try to exhaust every possibility…this was an extreme misuse of hospital care.
And an abuse of power by ¡qǝſ Her cerebellum had liquefied.
I expect many religious authorities will oppose this bill as it conflicts with the idea suffering is part of God's plan. Mother Theresa certainly loved suffering. She did next to nothing to prevent it. If a person is mentally capable of making a rational decision to end a life that has no chance of ever getting better, then I don't see where the government's interests lie. Who benefits from keeping a terminally ill person alive who is suffering with no chance of recovery?
Who benefits? In the US? Healthcare corporations with a profit motive.
This.
People who rail against healthcare* never complain about this aspect of the profit motive.
* Should it really be called "care"? Maybe "healthprofit" is more suitable.
Just as a means of clarification, this excerpt from an article which explains why the 'single payer' concept floated by Bernie Sanders and his followers isn't workable, and also about how NOT much different health care is in other countries:
Of further note is the fact that despite the rhetoric of the proponents of forced Medicare about the universal health care models of other developed nations, not a single one has one that looks like what Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are proposing: coverage for essentially everything (primary care to deluxe care to long term care, medical to dental and vision) through one, single, national government payer. That simply is not the case anywhere in the world (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html ).
In France, everyone is required to buy health insurance (individual mandate) which are sold by private nonprofit funds, and that insurance covers, like Medicare, about 70-80% of costs. Most French citizens also have voluntary private insurance akin to Medigap. Switzerland’s plan most closely resembles Obamacare, with the country requiring everyone to buy insurance offered by private insurance companies under strong community rating and guaranteed issue provisions to keep premiums down. In Germany, private insurance is available. Singapore’s public insurance only covers primary care, leaving most other things to health savings accounts and private insurance. Israel ( https://international.commonwealthfund.org/countries/israel/ )has a highly subsidized nonprofit health insurance model in which health plans are mandated to provide coverage determined by the government.
Even in Canada, the system of the most fascination of US single-payer advocates, the public health insurance system does not cover prescription drugs, dental, or vision care - highly regulated private insurance takes care of those. And each of Canada’s provinces run their own public insurance system, rather than the federal government running a single system.
https://www.reclaimthefight.com/2019/10/the-case-against-forced-medicare.html
I saw this reported in the New York Times yesterday and discussed on Atheist Universe. From my point of view, it is great news that now, people in the UK whose lives have become more torturous than joyful, owing to pernicious disease or disorder, can take action to end their suffering. I can't help but notice that, by comparison, there are only a handful of states in the US that afford their citizens the same right, and that people actually will move to those states and take up residence, so that they can benefit from that isolated value.
Doubtless the Vatican and Pope Frankie will scream bloody murder (!) at this turn. All they do with their caterwauling is demonstrate their utter lack of both understanding and empathy for those who deal with painful and terminal conditions.
They deserve to be ignored.
I live in such a state and am grateful that if I ever need it, I’ll have that option.
We here in Washington as well, thanks to the Death With Dignity Act.
We haven’t quite got there yet - the Bill still has several stages to go before it becomes law. But I believe we are going in the right direction.
OT: but pertinent to this site
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-catholic-family-election-trump-1e2f8723d4a7f2c24dbd3ada590baa65
“A Catholic family's answer to opposing abortion: adopt, foster and vote” For Trump, naturally, because he’s the pro-life candidate, doncha know? 🙄
"They can bite my shiny metal ass": Bender.
Growing up with those assholes should be against the Geneva convention.
Unfortunately for the children of this couple, it isn't.
Baby steps. When end of life came to my state, it took two weeks to get the meds. It still takes two doctors, but our politicians came to the realization that the in-person meetings could be handled by Zoom (perhaps the only good thing to come out of Covid), and now the wait is down to a week. Things move slowly, but they move. There are many who take advantage of the meds, and many who, once they have the meds, go one more day without until they die naturally. I see death with dignity the same as I see abortion--if you don't want it, don't have it!
I used to care for a lot of Hospice patients and encountered the 'suffering-is-good-for-the-soul' crowd a lot. As a life-long atheist, I think a well-lived life followed by as painless a death possible is the goal. I felt mildly euphoric drugs at the end were a kindness. Almost nobody has to die in agony any more unless they are maybe in a Catholic hospital. When death is inevitable, there should be widely agreed upon protocols for terminal care.
I always ask them, "Whose soul?"
I ask them: "Where is this so-called 'soul' in the human body? Point to it."
To me the soul is your feelings and your thoughts, your dreams and preferences, what makes you you, your identity. Nothing mystical, just the "magic" of being alive.
😄
I could never understand that "suffering is good" mentality. For what? More rewards in heaven? If god existed, wouldn't he see into your heart of hearts and know you were only in it for the rewards?
Is it for posterity? Life is already hard enough without also suffering terminal ailments. Do these people also take ibuprofen for headaches or sore muscles? If so, that's hypocritical. Taking any medication or having surgery would also be hypocritical.
I feel like religions are out to cause as much suffering as possible. The only folks who are able to avoid suffering are those that have been successful in grabbing power over the church. And some that have power over government.
The right and the church choosing the heartless option once again. Quelle surprise.
I think that is the reality.
Yes a wonderful move. I think assisted dying is a great idea especially for those whose quality of life be that physically or mentally is a nightmare every waking moment. And of course the Catholic Church opposes it! Please save it about how only God put us on this Earth and only God can let us die b-sh. Another fairy tale those suffering un- needfully must endure because of men and because of The Bible. I hope I will have that choice. Another "My Body My Choice" auguement. Bravo England. Beer on the house for all UK politicians today. Catholic Church why dont you shut the fk up and sit the fk down.
The same thing is happening here in B.C. A terrible waste of money. I'm guessing the woman will win. Times have changed and Catholicism in Canada is collapsing... at last.
https://bccatholic.ca/news/catholic-van/family-sues-over-hospital-s-religious-exemption-for-euthanasia
Twinkle, twinkle.
https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/468818876_533788222824651_3012641331616310458_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=aa7b47&_nc_ohc=YJHGPGW18CMQ7kNvgEspsod&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-2.xx&_nc_gid=A1aM3DdZdp1iMPuUBszL-vg&oh=00_AYB9MJ563HtJZQctjebJrv0ZA80jrZSUtvmcjx-P06oZ8g&oe=67518736
Trump just announced Charles Kushner as his pick for ambassador to France. Quick – tell BHM to hide.
Amb-ass-ador in Kushner's case.
"Make, uh, Nepotism, yeah, that's it, Great Again!"
In France that’s a flavour of icecream.
A couple of nut punches from her, and he will be the one hiding.
I was a "victim" of Catholicism for 20 years of my life. I finally "saw the light" and now I'm an Atheist. I feel very strongly about the ability of taking my own life. I have already told my kids, that if I ever lose my eyesight, I will definitely commit suicide. Friends and family insist life would still be worth living. Well, NO it wouldn't. Catholicism is a scourge.
I RAN in 5th grade of kkkatlik gulag.
I guess for religious kooks, the one who suffers the most is guaranteed to win that trip to heaven. I’d rather be in control of my own body and decide when the time is right. I don’t worry about missing a chance to meet my maker. Both my folks have since passed on.
Sure. This is why martyrs are still venerated in the Catholic Church. Always seemed like a waste of good people to me; at least concerning those who chose martyrdom.
I thought you were made in Taiwan. : )
Lol, some parts in Russia, some parts in Holland.