You can get the Bible to say just about anything you want it to say and therein lies the problem. Christianity is the most factionalized religion on the planet. Nothing else even comes close. Thousands of Christian denominations all claiming to be right and more often than not, condemning those they disagree with to eternal damnation.
I have a quote from a reverend I follow on Twitter that says, "Imagine taking a few bible verses on human sexuality as literal divine commands from God for ALL society, but minimizing the 3000+ plus verses calling for the care for immigrants, the marginalized, the oppressed and the poor to a personal choice."
it isn't *necessarily* a problem the same way a CEO dating an intern isn't necessarily a problem, or a 30 y.o. teacher dating an 18 y.o. student isn't necessarily a problem. In all such cases, yes it is hypothetically possible for everyone in the relationship to have a true informed consent. But most of the time, the power dynamics make that very unlikely. Even when all participants profess there's no social coercion, you have to suspect that they're skewed/biased and that the subconscious social pressure has got to socially more vulnerable or less socially powerful participant.
Israel Ford is 47. His first wife is mid-40s. The new "wife" is 28. We can't be 100% sure there's social coercion and social power imbalance dynamics at play here...but I think we can be 90% sure that they are.
It's also ILLEGAL, bub! The bible endorses all sorts of lovely stuff, like beating your kids (or stoning them to death!) if they step out of line. It doesn't just endorse slavery, it tells anyone HOW TO DO IT and to whom! Women? They're chattel, property, to be dealt with as the man sees fit. All that is VERY biblical.
It's also AGAINST CURRENT CRIMINAL LAW, and in case you hadn't heard, Pastor Ford, civil, secular, criminal law is what runs this country and not your atavistic holy book!
Whether or not polyamorous marriages should be legal is a separate question from religious beliefs surrounding the practice. It seems that all of the poly relationships that are justified by preachers tend to be preachers plus as many women as he can control, just like what we find in the bible. I would bet that he wouldn't allow one of his wives out if she wanted. Ethical polyamory demands that any member can leave at any time.
Marriage should be a contract between consenting adults, not a man collecting women to show his status and to exercise his control.
At least in part, marriage persists because of TRADITION (well defined as: "peer pressure from dead people!). It may be that, when children and their security are factored in, there is something to be said for the formalization of a family unit by civil law.
Look, if a bunch of people want to live polyamorously, that’s their business. What happens between CONSENTING adults behind their bedroom doors is up to them, and no one else. BUT bringing religion into it like this makes things so manipulative that I’m not sure that consent is actually possible, especially for a young woman brought up in this church.
Also, you can call her your second wife all you like, it doesn’t legally make it so. She has no legal rights in that household, in the way that the ‘first wife’ does. No biblical quote is gonna change that! (And I bet all those are OT quotes, and no NT ones, like Christians are *supposed* to follow 🙄)
Hey, I’d like a wife too! But since my husband and I are confirmed monogamists, I guess I’ll have to settle for a babysitter, DoorDash, and a secretary.
Sometimes it is difficult to tease out consent when peer pressure and power imbalances are in play at the same time. I generally think laws against polyamory do more good than harm, because if the practice was legal, for every one healthy adult group relationship, there would be 100 group relationships consisting of old guys using the law to collect harems of vulnerable dependent teens and twenty somethings.
Maybe one way to split the difference is to make it legal for folks over 35. There will still be some bad outcomes, but the goal of such a limit would be to ensure every participant has the experience and ability to independently self-support if they find it's toxic and need to walk away. None of this 'teen who has a GED and has never held a job or lived on their own' wives.
Never because men believe women are inferior and property. Women think men should be life partners and there for each other equally. This disjointed expectation is why we have a whole new generation finding out the fairy tales are not true. The world is run by men. Men do not think of women as people. Therefore they get all the wives they want, but the wives do not have the same options.
Yes, Pastor Ford, I think it's an abomination. It's an abomination to groom a young woman to be (effectively) a sex slave. It's an abomination to treat women as property. It's an abomination to beat your children. The polygamy alone only scratches the surface of why what you are doing is an abomination.
The prohibition against polygamy in leadership was more related to the dominant Roman culture of monogamy plus mistresses and any slaves you happened to want to rape which viewed polygamy as a backwoods kind of thing.
Biblical sexual ethics are a lot more fluid and culture based than they are divine prescriptions.
Having said this, I'm guessing this guy is very much against homosexuality and the LGBTQ community and he sounds very much like an actual groomer and rapist. And that is always the danger of polygamous marriages where consent becomes blurred or impossible due to power imbalances, manipulation, and child grooming or outright child marriage and rape.
I fully expect this creep to take a third "wife" eventually who is a child.
Pretty much anything you feel like doing is justified SOMEWHERE in the Bible, along with lots of other references saying that it's wrong. Makes it SO easy to pick and choose your favorite parts and claim it's simply what God wants.
That pastor can have two wives; and fundamentalist Mormons allow for multiple wives; and Islam allows for up to four wives —
But God forbid — GOD FORBID that two men, or two women are involved in a monogamous relationship, lasting multiple decades, because THAT is a SIN!
I have been with my partner for 37 years. Last year, I played the Celebration of Life service for the partner of a good friend of mine. They had been together 58 years. They met in 1967, and had been together ever since. (The deceased partner had developed cancer. He survived the cancer, but the side effects of chemotherapy killed him.)
I'm going to add to this: a serious respiratory disease, pulmonary fibrosis, runs in my extended family. Five blood-related members have had the disease. (I'm number five.)
The other four were straight, evangelical Christians. In their case, "God had given them a cross to bear, as a witness in this life to God's power and God's strength, by which the Glory of God will be fully manifest in this life as a preparation for the next life."
I'm gay, and a member of the liberal ELCA. I also have developed pulmonary fibrosis, Why? Because, according to my Christian Nationalist relatives, "God is punishing me for my *choice* of knowingly adopting a sinful lifestyle; flaunting that lifestyle in a same-sex so-called 'marriage'; rejecting sound counsel to repent of that lifestyle; and refusing to leave a liberal, apostate church which ordains women and LGBTs, so that every member who partakes of Communion in that denomination drinks a cup of damnation".
And Have A Nice Day! 🙂
I've written off large chunks of both (father's and mother's) side of the family. I'm not planning on dying anytime soon; and actually, the disease is quite well-managed for now. I was *supposed* to be dead five years ago. I'm still kicking strong, working in my garden, going to the gym, learning (and performing) difficult piano music, and going downtown to protest the Trumpwaffen SS (ICE).
When my time comes, I'm going to commit another "sin" -- I plan to end my life by putting enough fentanyl in a top-shelf, prickly pear Margarita (these are just indescribably good!) to bring down a raging bull elephant, because I'm NOT going out of this life suffocating to death. The MAGA and Christian Nationalists on both sides of the family are to be informed of my death a month *after* my Celebration of Life service.
I have known some of these relatives for 60, going on 70 years. We were extremely close when I was young. Unfortunately, people can change -- and sometimes, that change is for the worse. Friendships which were valid 60 years ago may not be valid today.
Piano pieces, eh? Are you familiar with Aaron Copland's Four Piano Blues? I tackled it years ago, back when my hands were still in shape. I don't see them as particularly difficult, but ... drat it, they are PRETTY, especially #2 (my fave!).
If you haven't already, you might give 'em a look.
You can get the Bible to say just about anything you want it to say and therein lies the problem. Christianity is the most factionalized religion on the planet. Nothing else even comes close. Thousands of Christian denominations all claiming to be right and more often than not, condemning those they disagree with to eternal damnation.
At first I read "factionalized" as "fictionalized"; ultimately realized "why not both?".
I have a quote from a reverend I follow on Twitter that says, "Imagine taking a few bible verses on human sexuality as literal divine commands from God for ALL society, but minimizing the 3000+ plus verses calling for the care for immigrants, the marginalized, the oppressed and the poor to a personal choice."
You know, polyamory isn't necessarily a problem. No need to come up with religious justifications
𝐴𝑝𝑝𝑎𝑟𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑙𝑦, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑦 𝑤𝑎𝑦 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑣𝑜𝑖𝑑 𝑠𝑒𝑥𝑢𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑎𝑏𝑢𝑠𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑡𝑙𝑒 𝑐ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑑𝑟𝑒𝑛 𝑖𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑔𝑒𝑡 𝑦𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑠𝑒𝑙𝑓 𝑚𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑖𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤𝑖𝑣𝑒𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑠𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑠𝑓𝑦 𝑦𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑢𝑟𝑔𝑒𝑠. 𝑊ℎ𝑜 𝑘𝑛𝑒𝑤.
Oh yeah. It's because they're predators.
They're also very much in favor of patriarchy and male domination. Nudge them hard enough and they won't just admit to that; they'll say it proudly! 😝
I thought it was the closeted gays in the RCC 😉
it isn't *necessarily* a problem the same way a CEO dating an intern isn't necessarily a problem, or a 30 y.o. teacher dating an 18 y.o. student isn't necessarily a problem. In all such cases, yes it is hypothetically possible for everyone in the relationship to have a true informed consent. But most of the time, the power dynamics make that very unlikely. Even when all participants profess there's no social coercion, you have to suspect that they're skewed/biased and that the subconscious social pressure has got to socially more vulnerable or less socially powerful participant.
Israel Ford is 47. His first wife is mid-40s. The new "wife" is 28. We can't be 100% sure there's social coercion and social power imbalance dynamics at play here...but I think we can be 90% sure that they are.
At least now they have someone to change their diapers when they are older.
𝐴𝑠 𝑎 𝑛𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑤𝑒 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑏𝑒𝑒𝑛 𝑡𝑎𝑢𝑔ℎ𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑎 𝑚𝑎𝑛 𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑜𝑛𝑒 𝑤𝑖𝑓𝑒 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑦. 𝑇ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑠 𝑢𝑛𝑏𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙.
It's also ILLEGAL, bub! The bible endorses all sorts of lovely stuff, like beating your kids (or stoning them to death!) if they step out of line. It doesn't just endorse slavery, it tells anyone HOW TO DO IT and to whom! Women? They're chattel, property, to be dealt with as the man sees fit. All that is VERY biblical.
It's also AGAINST CURRENT CRIMINAL LAW, and in case you hadn't heard, Pastor Ford, civil, secular, criminal law is what runs this country and not your atavistic holy book!
𝑁𝑜𝑡𝑎 𝑏𝑒𝑛𝑒.
Whether or not polyamorous marriages should be legal is a separate question from religious beliefs surrounding the practice. It seems that all of the poly relationships that are justified by preachers tend to be preachers plus as many women as he can control, just like what we find in the bible. I would bet that he wouldn't allow one of his wives out if she wanted. Ethical polyamory demands that any member can leave at any time.
Marriage should be a contract between consenting adults, not a man collecting women to show his status and to exercise his control.
𝑀𝑎𝑟𝑟𝑖𝑎𝑔𝑒 𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑏𝑒 𝑎 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡 𝑏𝑒𝑡𝑤𝑒𝑒𝑛 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎𝑑𝑢𝑙𝑡𝑠, 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑎 𝑚𝑎𝑛 𝑐𝑜𝑙𝑙𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑤𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑤 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑒𝑥𝑒𝑟𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑒 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑜𝑙.
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ Absolutely Stinking THIS!!! ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
I don't know why we need marriage these days anyway. It just makes you lose a bunch of money in the divorce.
At least in part, marriage persists because of TRADITION (well defined as: "peer pressure from dead people!). It may be that, when children and their security are factored in, there is something to be said for the formalization of a family unit by civil law.
Absent that, marriage looks far more problematic.
To keep a certain subset of lawyers off the street and employed.
“And maybe that’s what it takes to get them to realize the whole institution is a sham.”
That’s adorable, Hemant.
Every time you think xtians can't get more absurd...
And they think WE'RE the ones in need of help?
Look, if a bunch of people want to live polyamorously, that’s their business. What happens between CONSENTING adults behind their bedroom doors is up to them, and no one else. BUT bringing religion into it like this makes things so manipulative that I’m not sure that consent is actually possible, especially for a young woman brought up in this church.
Also, you can call her your second wife all you like, it doesn’t legally make it so. She has no legal rights in that household, in the way that the ‘first wife’ does. No biblical quote is gonna change that! (And I bet all those are OT quotes, and no NT ones, like Christians are *supposed* to follow 🙄)
Hey, I’d like a wife too! But since my husband and I are confirmed monogamists, I guess I’ll have to settle for a babysitter, DoorDash, and a secretary.
Sometimes it is difficult to tease out consent when peer pressure and power imbalances are in play at the same time. I generally think laws against polyamory do more good than harm, because if the practice was legal, for every one healthy adult group relationship, there would be 100 group relationships consisting of old guys using the law to collect harems of vulnerable dependent teens and twenty somethings.
Maybe one way to split the difference is to make it legal for folks over 35. There will still be some bad outcomes, but the goal of such a limit would be to ensure every participant has the experience and ability to independently self-support if they find it's toxic and need to walk away. None of this 'teen who has a GED and has never held a job or lived on their own' wives.
But it IS legal to practice polyamory, just not to have legal rights based on it.
"But she urged everyone else to be considerate because their church practiced openness and tolerance in the name of Jesus."
But only tolerance for those within the congregation that have two wives, it might seem.
Do you think that they wouldn't accept a man with 3 husbands and 1 wife? 🤨
Doubtful...
Openness and tolerance are one thing, and generally worthy of support and encouragement. Violation of the law is entirely another!
It's always the man who gets 2 or more wives. When will it be OK for women to get 2 or more husbands?
Never because men believe women are inferior and property. Women think men should be life partners and there for each other equally. This disjointed expectation is why we have a whole new generation finding out the fairy tales are not true. The world is run by men. Men do not think of women as people. Therefore they get all the wives they want, but the wives do not have the same options.
Can we at least say “some men”?
It's biblical, is it? So is one man having 700 wives and 300 concubines.
Try pulling THAT off today, Ford.
Yeah, making dinner reservations for your (VERY) extended family would be quite a challenge!
𝐴𝑛𝑑 𝐼 𝑘𝑛𝑜𝑤 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑘, “𝑂ℎ, 𝑖𝑡’𝑠 𝑎𝑛 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛.”
Yes, Pastor Ford, I think it's an abomination. It's an abomination to groom a young woman to be (effectively) a sex slave. It's an abomination to treat women as property. It's an abomination to beat your children. The polygamy alone only scratches the surface of why what you are doing is an abomination.
The prohibition against polygamy in leadership was more related to the dominant Roman culture of monogamy plus mistresses and any slaves you happened to want to rape which viewed polygamy as a backwoods kind of thing.
Biblical sexual ethics are a lot more fluid and culture based than they are divine prescriptions.
Having said this, I'm guessing this guy is very much against homosexuality and the LGBTQ community and he sounds very much like an actual groomer and rapist. And that is always the danger of polygamous marriages where consent becomes blurred or impossible due to power imbalances, manipulation, and child grooming or outright child marriage and rape.
I fully expect this creep to take a third "wife" eventually who is a child.
I also expect this creep to get a visitation from local law enforcement before too very long!
We can hope.
Pretty much anything you feel like doing is justified SOMEWHERE in the Bible, along with lots of other references saying that it's wrong. Makes it SO easy to pick and choose your favorite parts and claim it's simply what God wants.
$5 says these grifters are auditioning for a reality TV show.
"Two Wives and Counting?" Oy, vey!
Three's Company: As God Intended
Seven Brides for One Brother.
[GROAN!] Oh, is THAT on target! 🎯🎯🎯
Do you REALLY think Ford will stop at three?
To be fair, "Biblical marriage" has so many definitions/options it's silly.
Just ask America’s Best Christian Betty Bowers.
Love BB!
Fun fact, she's portrayed by Deven Green, and she's created and written by Andrew Bradley.
Even more fun? She’s both Canadian and atheist. :D
Further Thought: Okay, let's be honest, people. You all KNEW this was coming, right? Take it away, BETTY!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw
That pastor can have two wives; and fundamentalist Mormons allow for multiple wives; and Islam allows for up to four wives —
But God forbid — GOD FORBID that two men, or two women are involved in a monogamous relationship, lasting multiple decades, because THAT is a SIN!
I have been with my partner for 37 years. Last year, I played the Celebration of Life service for the partner of a good friend of mine. They had been together 58 years. They met in 1967, and had been together ever since. (The deceased partner had developed cancer. He survived the cancer, but the side effects of chemotherapy killed him.)
I'm going to add to this: a serious respiratory disease, pulmonary fibrosis, runs in my extended family. Five blood-related members have had the disease. (I'm number five.)
The other four were straight, evangelical Christians. In their case, "God had given them a cross to bear, as a witness in this life to God's power and God's strength, by which the Glory of God will be fully manifest in this life as a preparation for the next life."
I'm gay, and a member of the liberal ELCA. I also have developed pulmonary fibrosis, Why? Because, according to my Christian Nationalist relatives, "God is punishing me for my *choice* of knowingly adopting a sinful lifestyle; flaunting that lifestyle in a same-sex so-called 'marriage'; rejecting sound counsel to repent of that lifestyle; and refusing to leave a liberal, apostate church which ordains women and LGBTs, so that every member who partakes of Communion in that denomination drinks a cup of damnation".
And Have A Nice Day! 🙂
I've written off large chunks of both (father's and mother's) side of the family. I'm not planning on dying anytime soon; and actually, the disease is quite well-managed for now. I was *supposed* to be dead five years ago. I'm still kicking strong, working in my garden, going to the gym, learning (and performing) difficult piano music, and going downtown to protest the Trumpwaffen SS (ICE).
When my time comes, I'm going to commit another "sin" -- I plan to end my life by putting enough fentanyl in a top-shelf, prickly pear Margarita (these are just indescribably good!) to bring down a raging bull elephant, because I'm NOT going out of this life suffocating to death. The MAGA and Christian Nationalists on both sides of the family are to be informed of my death a month *after* my Celebration of Life service.
I have known some of these relatives for 60, going on 70 years. We were extremely close when I was young. Unfortunately, people can change -- and sometimes, that change is for the worse. Friendships which were valid 60 years ago may not be valid today.
Piano pieces, eh? Are you familiar with Aaron Copland's Four Piano Blues? I tackled it years ago, back when my hands were still in shape. I don't see them as particularly difficult, but ... drat it, they are PRETTY, especially #2 (my fave!).
If you haven't already, you might give 'em a look.