I said it the other day. This isn't about preventing or improving ANYTHING. It's about Christian Nationalists getting their foot in the door and subverting the government to the point where they can get their hands fully on the levers of power. Oh, and while I'm at it:
Religious right figures like David Barton cling to the fiction this country was somehow based on the Ten Commandments, in spite of the fact eight of them would be unconstitutional should someone try writing them into law. The US Constitution prohibits our government from choosing one religion over another, and yet forcing the Ten Commandments into the public school classrooms is exactly that. Once upon a time, when things worked in this country, this is something the courts would have struck down in a heartbeat. That was before conservatism became the be-all and end-all of the human thought process and a magic book began trumping the Constitution.
So it's finally come down to this. SCOTUS is going to rule on whether the Establishment Clause actually means anything, or whether it's just an inconvenience for Christian Nationalists to ignore. Accuse me of being melodramatic if you wish, but this one is CRUCIAL. If the US is to continue to be at least a secular nation de-jure if not de-facto, The Nine had better damned well come down on the side of those opposed to this foolishness.
Oh they will definitely rule it means something. What Alito will say is that it means you can't establish any religion *except* Christianity, because of history nobody can change.
Do you somehow think the origin of the 10C's is going to stop the harassment of Jewish students who object to the practice, or who say nothing but still get constantly told to follow Jesus by the evangelical students and teachers empowered by such posters?
It's not about what it could represent in a rational world. It's about what it does represent to conservative evangelicals who want dominionism.
Whether or not that matters to SCOTUS remains to be seen. If it doesn't, then all the work done by the founders to create a government of, by, and for the people will have been squandered, because some hung-up Christians felt as though they needed undeserved priority.
That is a tough question, because 6/9 are members of the RCC. The 10 C are quite truncated in their bible as opposed to the KJ and in the Hebrew bible.
Of course the Supreme Suck-Ups are just as likely to shoot this down as long as Trump has some clout, acting on the presumption that doing so would possibly result in likely attempts toward constitutional changes making Christianity official....and mandatory.
It woild not surprise me if a teacher posted a bunch of religious codes on posters the same size as the mandatory 10c poster, and subsequently gets fired and/or sued. Nevermind that only one third of the children aren't Christians and need their own ideas belief systems represented. Paxton would likely see this as a violation of the law.
That would not test the law though, since a teacher putting something up on their own falls under the discretion of the Principal, it's not something mandated by county or state law. The Principal could say 'take it down' and fire someone for not obeying and it wouldn't be a 1a violation, that would just be a workplace discipline non-issue.
What we would need as a stronger counter-case would be for some place like Portland, Or to insist all their district schools put up Islam's 5 or TST's 7 citing some desire to educate the student body on different cultural practices, then have a conservative Christian sue for it being a 1a violation by establishing religion in the classroom.
Alito and Thomas would have no problem in that case saying it's a violation (while the 10C's is not) using Alito's "but history" garbage argument. However, in that case they might have a much harder time getting the other conservatives to buy into the obvious hypocrisy.
The problem is, that's Gandhi's "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" solution. 10C's posters in Texas classrooms is bad. Posters of tons of religious claims in every classroom in the US is arguably worse. We want to argue for 'no religious endorsement posters anywhere', we do not want to argue for the 'religious endorsement for all, let's bring wars of religion into the classroom' solution.
This will be the 3rd time I’ve commented on this issue, the first 2 times following SCOTUS decision or lack thereof on the subject of the Ten Commandments in schools or on government properties and they’ve been pretty clear on this point every time. Do you think they metaphorically roll their eyes whenever another suit on the subject hits the docket (that’s what I picture every time)? Now far be it from me to be certain SCOTUS would necessarily agree with their own previous rulings, they can’t be trusted, their memories are short, that’s true. But nothing that props up their previous rulings has changed. And what will kids think upon learning these ‘commandments’, supposedly written by a god (or the God), while the leaders of their country, the very people elected to lead by example, violate them every day? Behave nefariously, covet wives, kill, and see adults worship at the feet of a mortal fail of a man who covers himself in gold? Seems to me the entire idea of posting them in learning environments may have the opposite effect from what they envision.
Considering the current content of the Court and the influence from the Heritage Foundation, under which they operate, I think there is very little rolling of eyes by the conservative majority. Some of them may have been awaiting this particular case / opportunity for the better part of their careers, an idea I find positively terrifying.
That said, I still hope for an 8 – 1 ruling AGAINST (depend on Thomas at minimum to be the asshat here), but realistically, I an not at all sanguine.
Alito and Thomas can both be guaranteed to be asshats on this matter. Alito because he clearly thinks the 1a should protect Christian privilege, and Thomas because he'd burn down every civil rights advance since the 1950s on principle.
I think the smart money is heavily in favor of "they take the case" because that only requires the four most conservative members to want to hear it. I think it's also likely they make it the law of the land, though that is a tougher call.
Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Sotomayor, Kavanaugh and Barrett are ALL Catholic.
One would think that would make them opposed to the Protestant 10Cs going up, and to see the sectarian establishment in it. But we can't assume. Particularly with the hardliners, they may think 'this is still better than a secular classroom.'
Anyway, it sure would be good to get some RCC written submission to the court or some Texas Catholic family videos talking about why this imposes on their religious faith added to the case file. Not that that would make much of a difference for Thomas and Alito, but it might matter to the others more than any testimony by a Jew, Protestant, or none.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Never mind the fact that Congress has already made too many laws violating the above statement. In the case of posting the 10Cs in public school classrooms, I'm not sure you get much more foundational than those 10 basic words above. The problem is what it always has been with Christianity: its avarice and lust for power and governmental influence, and its utterly irrational desire to superimpose itself on all of society, wanted or not (News Bulletin: mostly NOT).
What I wonder now is what the reaction will be from the general population, should SCOTUS side with the 10C posters. Will there be an outcry or an apathetic shrug of the shoulders. I worry about that, too.
Have these commandment thingies prevented a single school shooting? If not, then they are worthless.
I said it the other day. This isn't about preventing or improving ANYTHING. It's about Christian Nationalists getting their foot in the door and subverting the government to the point where they can get their hands fully on the levers of power. Oh, and while I'm at it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfCALsfj4I
Never mess with a genius packing a flamethrower. Or a laptop.
Ms. Atwood continues to be brilliant, and utterly her own woman.
Get enough of them piled up and you can make a bullet resistant bunker. See? They can be useful.
But but they get to feel superior
Religious right figures like David Barton cling to the fiction this country was somehow based on the Ten Commandments, in spite of the fact eight of them would be unconstitutional should someone try writing them into law. The US Constitution prohibits our government from choosing one religion over another, and yet forcing the Ten Commandments into the public school classrooms is exactly that. Once upon a time, when things worked in this country, this is something the courts would have struck down in a heartbeat. That was before conservatism became the be-all and end-all of the human thought process and a magic book began trumping the Constitution.
So it's finally come down to this. SCOTUS is going to rule on whether the Establishment Clause actually means anything, or whether it's just an inconvenience for Christian Nationalists to ignore. Accuse me of being melodramatic if you wish, but this one is CRUCIAL. If the US is to continue to be at least a secular nation de-jure if not de-facto, The Nine had better damned well come down on the side of those opposed to this foolishness.
Otherwise, Gilead awaits.
Oh they will definitely rule it means something. What Alito will say is that it means you can't establish any religion *except* Christianity, because of history nobody can change.
Depictions of the Ten Commandments are a direct violation of the 2nd Commandment.
Case closed.
But this SCOTUS wants to change the Constitution, they will just reach in and pull some made-up nonsense out of Alito's ass again.
I think they are certainly an example of political idolatry where believers put their faith in government to force their message upon others.
Since the 10 C are Jewish in nature and predate Christianity, are xtians unknowingly pushing Judaism in the classroom?
Do you somehow think the origin of the 10C's is going to stop the harassment of Jewish students who object to the practice, or who say nothing but still get constantly told to follow Jesus by the evangelical students and teachers empowered by such posters?
It's not about what it could represent in a rational world. It's about what it does represent to conservative evangelicals who want dominionism.
Good point. You'd think they'd want to go with how Jesus summed up the commandments with just two - love God and love your neighbor.
Further Thought:
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝐹𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝐶𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑣𝑖𝑜𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐹𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡.
-- Aron Ra
Whether or not that matters to SCOTUS remains to be seen. If it doesn't, then all the work done by the founders to create a government of, by, and for the people will have been squandered, because some hung-up Christians felt as though they needed undeserved priority.
They have felt they needed that undeserved priority for 17 centuries. It's a hard habit to get them to give up.
That is a tough question, because 6/9 are members of the RCC. The 10 C are quite truncated in their bible as opposed to the KJ and in the Hebrew bible.
Of course the Supreme Suck-Ups are just as likely to shoot this down as long as Trump has some clout, acting on the presumption that doing so would possibly result in likely attempts toward constitutional changes making Christianity official....and mandatory.
Thou shall not be dumb fucking assholes--liberty of conscience belongs to EVERYONE
𝐵𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑙𝑜𝑔𝑖𝑐, 𝑇𝑒𝑥𝑎𝑠 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑝𝑎𝑠𝑠 𝑎 𝑙𝑎𝑤 𝑡𝑜 𝑝𝑢𝑡 𝑢𝑝 𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑆𝑎𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑐 𝑇𝑒𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑒’𝑠 𝑆𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛 𝐹𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑎𝑙 𝑇𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑡𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑏𝑒 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑒, 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑠𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑙𝑖𝑠𝑡, 𝑠𝑜 𝑤ℎ𝑎𝑡’𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑏𝑖𝑔 𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑙?
So what would actually happen?
𝑌𝑜𝑢 𝑔𝑒𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑒𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑖𝑓 𝑎 𝑙𝑖𝑠𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑣𝑎𝑙𝑢𝑒𝑠 𝑓𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑄𝑢𝑟'𝑎𝑛 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑢𝑝 𝑖𝑛 𝑐𝑙𝑎𝑠𝑠𝑟𝑜𝑜𝑚𝑠, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑗𝑢𝑑𝑔𝑒𝑠 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑𝑛’𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑝𝑎𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑑 ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑚𝑙𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑎𝑡 𝑎𝑙𝑙.
Same thing.
It woild not surprise me if a teacher posted a bunch of religious codes on posters the same size as the mandatory 10c poster, and subsequently gets fired and/or sued. Nevermind that only one third of the children aren't Christians and need their own ideas belief systems represented. Paxton would likely see this as a violation of the law.
That would not test the law though, since a teacher putting something up on their own falls under the discretion of the Principal, it's not something mandated by county or state law. The Principal could say 'take it down' and fire someone for not obeying and it wouldn't be a 1a violation, that would just be a workplace discipline non-issue.
What we would need as a stronger counter-case would be for some place like Portland, Or to insist all their district schools put up Islam's 5 or TST's 7 citing some desire to educate the student body on different cultural practices, then have a conservative Christian sue for it being a 1a violation by establishing religion in the classroom.
Alito and Thomas would have no problem in that case saying it's a violation (while the 10C's is not) using Alito's "but history" garbage argument. However, in that case they might have a much harder time getting the other conservatives to buy into the obvious hypocrisy.
The problem is, that's Gandhi's "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" solution. 10C's posters in Texas classrooms is bad. Posters of tons of religious claims in every classroom in the US is arguably worse. We want to argue for 'no religious endorsement posters anywhere', we do not want to argue for the 'religious endorsement for all, let's bring wars of religion into the classroom' solution.
Please note that the 10 commandments are not christian, they are in the Hebrew scriptures (old testament).
Yup. Meant for the Chosen People only.
My goodness, this is not the time. The SCOTUS couldn’t be more corrupt and this is falling right into place just as planned.
This will be the 3rd time I’ve commented on this issue, the first 2 times following SCOTUS decision or lack thereof on the subject of the Ten Commandments in schools or on government properties and they’ve been pretty clear on this point every time. Do you think they metaphorically roll their eyes whenever another suit on the subject hits the docket (that’s what I picture every time)? Now far be it from me to be certain SCOTUS would necessarily agree with their own previous rulings, they can’t be trusted, their memories are short, that’s true. But nothing that props up their previous rulings has changed. And what will kids think upon learning these ‘commandments’, supposedly written by a god (or the God), while the leaders of their country, the very people elected to lead by example, violate them every day? Behave nefariously, covet wives, kill, and see adults worship at the feet of a mortal fail of a man who covers himself in gold? Seems to me the entire idea of posting them in learning environments may have the opposite effect from what they envision.
Considering the current content of the Court and the influence from the Heritage Foundation, under which they operate, I think there is very little rolling of eyes by the conservative majority. Some of them may have been awaiting this particular case / opportunity for the better part of their careers, an idea I find positively terrifying.
That said, I still hope for an 8 – 1 ruling AGAINST (depend on Thomas at minimum to be the asshat here), but realistically, I an not at all sanguine.
Alito and Thomas can both be guaranteed to be asshats on this matter. Alito because he clearly thinks the 1a should protect Christian privilege, and Thomas because he'd burn down every civil rights advance since the 1950s on principle.
I think Uncle Thomas may be retiring, so he really has no excuse not to make the ruling unanimous
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑆𝑢𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑒 𝐶𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑑𝑜 𝑎𝑛𝑦𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑓𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑟𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑑𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑜𝑝𝑒𝑛𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑜𝑜𝑟 𝑡𝑜 𝑇𝑒𝑛 𝐶𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑔𝑜𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑢𝑝 𝑖𝑛 𝑐𝑙𝑎𝑠𝑠𝑟𝑜𝑜𝑚𝑠 𝑎𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑦.
Well, let's count.
Thomas, Alito, Barrett, Kavanaugh - for
Gorsuch - harder to predict, but probably for
Roberts - harder to predict, but probably against
Sotmayor, Kagan, Jackson - against
I think the smart money is heavily in favor of "they take the case" because that only requires the four most conservative members to want to hear it. I think it's also likely they make it the law of the land, though that is a tougher call.
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑅𝑒𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑠 (𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑎 ℎ𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑓𝑢𝑙 𝑜𝑓 𝐷𝑒𝑚𝑜𝑐𝑟𝑎𝑡𝑠) 𝑖𝑔𝑛𝑜𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑜𝑝𝑝𝑜𝑠𝑖𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑡𝑜 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑏𝑖𝑙𝑙, 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎 𝑙𝑒𝑡𝑡𝑒𝑟 𝑠𝑖𝑔𝑛𝑒𝑑 𝑏𝑦 𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟 150 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝐽𝑒𝑤𝑖𝑠ℎ 𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑 𝑖𝑡 “𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑒𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑎𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚 𝑤𝑒 𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑠ℎ.”
Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Sotomayor, Kavanaugh and Barrett are ALL Catholic.
One would think that would make them opposed to the Protestant 10Cs going up, and to see the sectarian establishment in it. But we can't assume. Particularly with the hardliners, they may think 'this is still better than a secular classroom.'
Anyway, it sure would be good to get some RCC written submission to the court or some Texas Catholic family videos talking about why this imposes on their religious faith added to the case file. Not that that would make much of a difference for Thomas and Alito, but it might matter to the others more than any testimony by a Jew, Protestant, or none.
Asking Christians to protect others from their privilege is asking too much.
Obligatory:
Not. The. Ten. Commandments.
Okay, let's say it out loud:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
Never mind the fact that Congress has already made too many laws violating the above statement. In the case of posting the 10Cs in public school classrooms, I'm not sure you get much more foundational than those 10 basic words above. The problem is what it always has been with Christianity: its avarice and lust for power and governmental influence, and its utterly irrational desire to superimpose itself on all of society, wanted or not (News Bulletin: mostly NOT).
What I wonder now is what the reaction will be from the general population, should SCOTUS side with the 10C posters. Will there be an outcry or an apathetic shrug of the shoulders. I worry about that, too.