If no one else has said it, I will: that ruling will HURT PEOPLE. It'll hurt kids who are trying to discover who they are. It'll hurt adults who get told they MUST undergo such "therapy" because reasons. It will hurt families and friends and uncounted others.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the USA hates women and children. Especially children after witnessing the events of the last year(s). Come to think of it, we’ve never cared about children:
On a lot of issues in the current climate, abortion/maternity, LGBTQ, disabilities and employment, the conservative thinking really boils down to “conform to our strict narrow standards or die.” So many of their “solutions” to perceived problems are cruel and dangerous and have lead to many unnecessary deaths, and they are aware of the death they cause and continue to push for the same “solutions”. Many of the problems are of their own making even, then they push for deadly solutions. I mean, we know that there is a faction of white supremacists you in the conservative movement (if not the majority of whole of the movement) so it tracks that they want anyone who doesn’t conform to die. They don’t want to share the world with anyone not lily white and only want women because they can’t reproduce without us.
I had "gender affirming treatment" as a minor...all the way back in 1974. (And I am aware that Conversion Therapy is very different.)
Of course, no one knew what an EVIL MONSTER i (apparently) was back then...
(I can't even imagine a life without having had that very necessary, very simple medical treatment. Tragically, brutality is now part and parcel of controlling a population of innocent people with medical needs.)
The simple treatment gave me a life I never dreamed I might have, even including marriage (to a WOMAN, no less!) I confess gratitude that my issues never involved gender dysphoria. Not because of any bias, but simply because life is already quite complicated enough.
Thank you, Troublesh00ter. Your kindness (and everyone's) means more than might be imagined.
If it were 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 words, then I could see the possible point of allowing it under the First Amendment. But those words are so cruel, hateful, and bullying that it will increase suicidal ideation among its targets, the opposite of what therapy is supposed to do. That is why it shouldn't be allowed, because it is not only words, even when the "therapist" is just talking.
How many bigoted parents are going to try to "fix" their children only to bury them? One is too many.
Remember Nex Benedict? Amateur bullying killed them. Now the professionals will be doing the bullying.
Why do you suppose we do NOT hear of the free-speech restrictions based on the "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" exception on practically a DAILY basis?
Even MAGA pretends to understand things it hears constantly...
MAGA only wants to restrict everyone else's speech. They will do some very impressive mental gymnastics to say that speech they don't like falls under the restrictions already in place. They will do the same impressive mental gymnastics to say that those same restrictions apply to their speech.
I cannot add anything to what hemant has said. I’m not even going to try. This is not a free speech issue, this is a professional conduct issue. And gay kids are going to pay for it. Like the abortion decision, it simply ignores everything else in favor of a predetermined outcome.
I hope every gay person harmed by this as the courage to sue these assholes into next week.
I'm a firm 1a free expression supporter, but KBJ got this one right. What you say as a private individual is free; what you say as a licensed professional or other "on the job" situation can absolutely be punished by removal of license or firing or what have you. The last thing we need is the AMA, ABA, and APA being prevented from disbarring quacks through the legal defense that they have a 1a right to maintain their state license while giving patently bad professional advice. I mean, what's next, Kaiser Permanente denies antibiotics because their on-staff *licensed* humorist says we just need more yellow bile?
Hopefully the lower court will lay out the inconsistency between Chiles and Skrmetti and make a consistent ruling. I.e. both allowed, both forbidden, or maybe "square the circle" by saying talk therapy okay in both cases (affirming and opposing) but other treatments not (again, both affirming and opposing). The latter would at least prevent crazy torture stuff like shock therapy.
The Alliance Defending Freedom’s comment “Kids deserve real help affirming that their bodies are not a mistake and that they are wonderfully made.” Is so nonsensical, rife with Christian flowery language that means nothing important. Compared to Brown-Jackson’s dissent or the church state separation groups’ statements, it’s like a toddler debating a renowned physics scientist about the workings of physics. (You know what I mean, an expert in their field).
Who is saying an LGBTQ person isn’t “wonderfully made” or that their body is a mistake? Is this how they speak to cancer patients? That they need to accept their cancer as godswill? Or say, a child born without legs, or someone with Ehler’s Danlos Syndrome, or any other condition? We acknowledge the disease or condition and make attempts to help the person with them live their best lives. We don’t bully them into pretending they don’t have the problems or that they can’t make adjustments to their bodies to improve their lives, we don’t just torture them into little boxes of acceptable standards not based in reality. We do work to make other people’s disabilities more palatable for non-disabled people to be around, but that is something progressive society is working on.
I’m sorry, but whenever religious groups and people start trying to debate, they just use a whole other language, and super shallow ideas with black and white thinking and they are always out of their depth. Like yesterday’s bot, “discernment matters”, what do you mean, explain where the discernment that we had detailed wasn’t used or what you mean beyond “discernment matters.” Bumper sticker debate is only paper thin.
So LGBTQ kids DON'T have a right to free speech/free expression, cristers? Is that how the game is played?
Tell you what, let's flip the script and practice conversion therapy on Christians to rid them of their delusions about supernatural beings and realms when there is no evidence for either. How'll that be?
How's that? Persecution, you say? Oh, that's right. Christians are only okay with persecution so long as THEY are the ones doing it.
If we began promoting DECONVERSION THERAPY on Christians, claiming (truthfully!) that they have been bamboozled by their pastors and priests and we provide relief from their brainwashing and indoctrination, they would scream PERSECUTION at the top of their lungs before we could finish a sentence.
"We're through the looking glass, here, people. White is black, and black is white." Boy, howdy, are we ever.
For at least the last thirty years in this country, if you just made lots and lots of noise about your conservatism, you were then free to say any stupid, irresponsible thing you wanted. Thus, conservatism became the be-all and end-all of the human thought process in this once-great country. The fact is, American conservatives have a perfect record of having come down on the wrong side of history when it comes to every great issue that ever moved this country forward and made it better. This isn’t about doing something that will actually help LGBTQ kids, It’s about the fanatics in the anti-LGBTQ movement trying to feel good about themselves in the name of God.
The goal of religious extremism has always been the same, they want to psychologically torment gay kids, so they’ll stay in the closet. As long as the kids stay in the closet they can pretend that homosexuals don’t exist. How much damage they do to children, is irrelevant. Keep in mind these are the same people that sat in conventions and said AIDS was God’s final solution. These are the same people that protested the funerals of families who were laying their loved ones to rest, who had died of AIDS.
And just a sidenote these are the same people that voted a rapist and pedophile into the White House. Those actions alone promote more rape and pedophilia.
That’s exactly what the US needs MORE suppression of being who you are. It’s worked out really well for us and our so-called collective morality so far. It’s dangerous, abusive, and will continue to plaque our society until we stop compromising with religious fascists at every turn. Zero lessons have been learned.
Further Thought: If conversion therapy were purely VOLUNTARY, that might change the playing field at least a bit, though it would NOT change the fact that such treatment has yet to demonstrate anything like effectiveness. Most of us know that it will not be so, certainly not for kids. Kids will be told by intolerant parents that they are somehow WRONG for being who they are and THIS NICE LADY HERE will help them find their True Selves™.
And we will find more headlines about self-harm and suicides, linked to this crap in our news feeds in the not very distant future.
Oh, no, they won't talk about the self-harm of LGBTQ2SIA kids from this. There might be a few headlines wringing hands about an increase, probably blaming some form of metal rock, or social media, or video games. But certainly nothing that might point fingers at the haters and the people they keep in power.
As Hemant said, this ruling doesn't technically overrule the lower court's finding. What it does is send it back to them and tells them to redo the case (a) using the 'strict scrutiny' standard, instead of the rational basis standard, and (b) considering SCOTUS' finding that this looks like viewpoint discrmination.
But maybe there's a way the lower court can point out that by only applying it to minors, it is "narrowly tailored to serve compelling state interests", i.e. passes the strict scrutiny standard.
Is there any kind of medical care that does not include speech? Meaning absolutely nothing is off limits? I heard part of Brown’s dissent on NPR and it made a lot of sense to me.
If no one else has said it, I will: that ruling will HURT PEOPLE. It'll hurt kids who are trying to discover who they are. It'll hurt adults who get told they MUST undergo such "therapy" because reasons. It will hurt families and friends and uncounted others.
And it will help NO ONE.
They definitely won't care if they hurt kids. In fact, I think it's something that leaves the anti-LGBTQ movement feeling validated.
Once again, the cruelty IS the point.
At least some of them want to hurt kids.
Even if they're not trying to deliberatly hurt kids, they're so blinded by their beliefs they cannot grasp the fact that's exactly what they're doing.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the USA hates women and children. Especially children after witnessing the events of the last year(s). Come to think of it, we’ve never cared about children:
https://www.instagram.com/p/DJdlMCNu588/?igsh=N2VyY2V0aGRuZjNq
Honestly, I'm sure some of them would prefer the kids to kill themselves than be gay or trans.
Tragically, a lot of 'em may get their wish. [sigh] DAMN, but this pisses me off!
On a lot of issues in the current climate, abortion/maternity, LGBTQ, disabilities and employment, the conservative thinking really boils down to “conform to our strict narrow standards or die.” So many of their “solutions” to perceived problems are cruel and dangerous and have lead to many unnecessary deaths, and they are aware of the death they cause and continue to push for the same “solutions”. Many of the problems are of their own making even, then they push for deadly solutions. I mean, we know that there is a faction of white supremacists you in the conservative movement (if not the majority of whole of the movement) so it tracks that they want anyone who doesn’t conform to die. They don’t want to share the world with anyone not lily white and only want women because they can’t reproduce without us.
Well, not quite, they also want women for recreational use. Otherwise someone might think they're gay. But treat them as people? Heresy.
Yes, that would “solve” the problem for some parents.
💯💯
I had "gender affirming treatment" as a minor...all the way back in 1974. (And I am aware that Conversion Therapy is very different.)
Of course, no one knew what an EVIL MONSTER i (apparently) was back then...
(I can't even imagine a life without having had that very necessary, very simple medical treatment. Tragically, brutality is now part and parcel of controlling a population of innocent people with medical needs.)
Your treatment was (I presume) both consensual and beneficial. I have a tough time believing that any form of conversion therapy would be either.
And if you is a "evil monster," ya coulda fooled me! 😉
Two injections of an unknown (to me) hormone.
The simple treatment gave me a life I never dreamed I might have, even including marriage (to a WOMAN, no less!) I confess gratitude that my issues never involved gender dysphoria. Not because of any bias, but simply because life is already quite complicated enough.
Thank you, Troublesh00ter. Your kindness (and everyone's) means more than might be imagined.
My joy, foofaraw. Always glad to help ... and beaucoup hugs available (if only virtual) if desired!
If it were 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 words, then I could see the possible point of allowing it under the First Amendment. But those words are so cruel, hateful, and bullying that it will increase suicidal ideation among its targets, the opposite of what therapy is supposed to do. That is why it shouldn't be allowed, because it is not only words, even when the "therapist" is just talking.
How many bigoted parents are going to try to "fix" their children only to bury them? One is too many.
Remember Nex Benedict? Amateur bullying killed them. Now the professionals will be doing the bullying.
Joe,
Why do you suppose we do NOT hear of the free-speech restrictions based on the "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" exception on practically a DAILY basis?
Even MAGA pretends to understand things it hears constantly...
MAGA only wants to restrict everyone else's speech. They will do some very impressive mental gymnastics to say that speech they don't like falls under the restrictions already in place. They will do the same impressive mental gymnastics to say that those same restrictions apply to their speech.
Bigots: “Kids deserve real help affirming that their bodies are not a mistake and that they are wonderfully made."
We now take you to a children's cancer ward for an update on those wonderfully made bodies.
I cannot add anything to what hemant has said. I’m not even going to try. This is not a free speech issue, this is a professional conduct issue. And gay kids are going to pay for it. Like the abortion decision, it simply ignores everything else in favor of a predetermined outcome.
I hope every gay person harmed by this as the courage to sue these assholes into next week.
I'm a firm 1a free expression supporter, but KBJ got this one right. What you say as a private individual is free; what you say as a licensed professional or other "on the job" situation can absolutely be punished by removal of license or firing or what have you. The last thing we need is the AMA, ABA, and APA being prevented from disbarring quacks through the legal defense that they have a 1a right to maintain their state license while giving patently bad professional advice. I mean, what's next, Kaiser Permanente denies antibiotics because their on-staff *licensed* humorist says we just need more yellow bile?
Hopefully the lower court will lay out the inconsistency between Chiles and Skrmetti and make a consistent ruling. I.e. both allowed, both forbidden, or maybe "square the circle" by saying talk therapy okay in both cases (affirming and opposing) but other treatments not (again, both affirming and opposing). The latter would at least prevent crazy torture stuff like shock therapy.
The Alliance Defending Freedom’s comment “Kids deserve real help affirming that their bodies are not a mistake and that they are wonderfully made.” Is so nonsensical, rife with Christian flowery language that means nothing important. Compared to Brown-Jackson’s dissent or the church state separation groups’ statements, it’s like a toddler debating a renowned physics scientist about the workings of physics. (You know what I mean, an expert in their field).
Who is saying an LGBTQ person isn’t “wonderfully made” or that their body is a mistake? Is this how they speak to cancer patients? That they need to accept their cancer as godswill? Or say, a child born without legs, or someone with Ehler’s Danlos Syndrome, or any other condition? We acknowledge the disease or condition and make attempts to help the person with them live their best lives. We don’t bully them into pretending they don’t have the problems or that they can’t make adjustments to their bodies to improve their lives, we don’t just torture them into little boxes of acceptable standards not based in reality. We do work to make other people’s disabilities more palatable for non-disabled people to be around, but that is something progressive society is working on.
I’m sorry, but whenever religious groups and people start trying to debate, they just use a whole other language, and super shallow ideas with black and white thinking and they are always out of their depth. Like yesterday’s bot, “discernment matters”, what do you mean, explain where the discernment that we had detailed wasn’t used or what you mean beyond “discernment matters.” Bumper sticker debate is only paper thin.
Let's stop calling it conversion therapy and refer to it by its real name: Torture. A violation of international law and a crime against humanity.
"Shaming Therapy." "I'm Not Comfortable With LGBTQ+ People Therapy" "Conform Therapy." "Everyone MUST Be Like ME Therapy"
I'm sure there are LOTS of other more appropriate names for this crap.
"Conform or die" therapy.
So LGBTQ kids DON'T have a right to free speech/free expression, cristers? Is that how the game is played?
Tell you what, let's flip the script and practice conversion therapy on Christians to rid them of their delusions about supernatural beings and realms when there is no evidence for either. How'll that be?
How's that? Persecution, you say? Oh, that's right. Christians are only okay with persecution so long as THEY are the ones doing it.
If we began promoting DECONVERSION THERAPY on Christians, claiming (truthfully!) that they have been bamboozled by their pastors and priests and we provide relief from their brainwashing and indoctrination, they would scream PERSECUTION at the top of their lungs before we could finish a sentence.
"We're through the looking glass, here, people. White is black, and black is white." Boy, howdy, are we ever.
They don't want to give LGBTQ kids any rights, because they see all children as things that are owned by the parents.
For at least the last thirty years in this country, if you just made lots and lots of noise about your conservatism, you were then free to say any stupid, irresponsible thing you wanted. Thus, conservatism became the be-all and end-all of the human thought process in this once-great country. The fact is, American conservatives have a perfect record of having come down on the wrong side of history when it comes to every great issue that ever moved this country forward and made it better. This isn’t about doing something that will actually help LGBTQ kids, It’s about the fanatics in the anti-LGBTQ movement trying to feel good about themselves in the name of God.
The goal of religious extremism has always been the same, they want to psychologically torment gay kids, so they’ll stay in the closet. As long as the kids stay in the closet they can pretend that homosexuals don’t exist. How much damage they do to children, is irrelevant. Keep in mind these are the same people that sat in conventions and said AIDS was God’s final solution. These are the same people that protested the funerals of families who were laying their loved ones to rest, who had died of AIDS.
And just a sidenote these are the same people that voted a rapist and pedophile into the White House. Those actions alone promote more rape and pedophilia.
That’s exactly what the US needs MORE suppression of being who you are. It’s worked out really well for us and our so-called collective morality so far. It’s dangerous, abusive, and will continue to plaque our society until we stop compromising with religious fascists at every turn. Zero lessons have been learned.
Further Thought: If conversion therapy were purely VOLUNTARY, that might change the playing field at least a bit, though it would NOT change the fact that such treatment has yet to demonstrate anything like effectiveness. Most of us know that it will not be so, certainly not for kids. Kids will be told by intolerant parents that they are somehow WRONG for being who they are and THIS NICE LADY HERE will help them find their True Selves™.
And we will find more headlines about self-harm and suicides, linked to this crap in our news feeds in the not very distant future.
Oh, no, they won't talk about the self-harm of LGBTQ2SIA kids from this. There might be a few headlines wringing hands about an increase, probably blaming some form of metal rock, or social media, or video games. But certainly nothing that might point fingers at the haters and the people they keep in power.
Yes.
As Hemant said, this ruling doesn't technically overrule the lower court's finding. What it does is send it back to them and tells them to redo the case (a) using the 'strict scrutiny' standard, instead of the rational basis standard, and (b) considering SCOTUS' finding that this looks like viewpoint discrmination.
But maybe there's a way the lower court can point out that by only applying it to minors, it is "narrowly tailored to serve compelling state interests", i.e. passes the strict scrutiny standard.
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑚𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑎𝑔𝑒 𝑖𝑠 𝑐𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑟: 𝑌𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤𝑠 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑎𝑙𝑤𝑎𝑦𝑠 𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑚𝑖𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑒 𝑖𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑥𝑡 𝑎𝑠 𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑔 𝑎𝑠 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑐𝑎𝑛 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑡’𝑠 𝑎 “𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒 𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑒𝑐ℎ” 𝑖𝑠𝑠𝑢𝑒. 𝐽𝑢𝑠𝑡 𝑖𝑔𝑛𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑖𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑑 𝐿𝐺𝐵𝑇𝑄 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑖𝑠 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑒.
We need the Trevor Project more than ever.
The Trevor Project - Suicide Prevention for LGBTQ+ Young People https://share.google/OZXzPzWTMHnuhofXc
As I said elsewhere, there was some small optimistic part of me that hoped I wouldn't have to leave them money in my will.
We are now the Turning Point United States of America where my speech is protected and yours is not. Funny how that works.
Thank you Ketanji Brown Jackson for standing your ground. She knows that the game is and has been rigged and isn’t afraid to say it.
OT: I’m signing off until I’m packed for Arizona, have mowed the lawn, and have made dinner.
Americans United posted this 22 hours ago
au.org/the-latest/press/au-denounces-scotus-conversion-therapy-decision/
Is there any kind of medical care that does not include speech? Meaning absolutely nothing is off limits? I heard part of Brown’s dissent on NPR and it made a lot of sense to me.