The military figured that out a long time ago, but after the initial humbling out phase it's all about self-esteem, and I don't see that part happening with these church camps. You do not want service members who do not believe in themselves.
I just pictured a soldier in a combat zone suddenly throwing down his gun and telling the enemy "just go ahead and shoot me - I'm a worthless piece of shit anyway".
It is the whole sorry process of enculting people. Parents sending their kids off to be made into Zombies.Evangelical Christian Nationalism is an authoritarian cult and nothing else.
There's the Willis family, TV celebs pre-Duggar. Dad's went to prison for raping his daughters. On YT, his daughters talk about it. When asked why they didn't report it, one said they thought that this was normal. Cos their family was living in obedience to jesus, all those other heathen teens in the world must be getting it a lot worse than them. Mum must have known, but was so brainwashed, she daren't even mention it. Maybe hubby beat her, like the odious Steve Anderson regularly assaults his wife. Her FB page is all sweetness and light about him and her poor battered, abused kids.
So I wasn't familiar with the family you mentioned, and went looking. That may have been an error in judgment, but the Wiki article is relatively small. If anyone would like to read, here's 𝔜𝔢 𝔒𝔩𝔡𝔢 𝔏𝔦𝔫𝔨: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Willis_Family
It says he'll serve 40years!!!!!!!!!!!! So there is some justice left in the world. I want to see Stevie and Zsu Anderson prosecuted, YT interviews with their oldest 4 kids are graphic in their descriptions of physical abuse. They had to attend church on hot days in long-sleeved clothes to hide bruised limbs, were dragged by their ears or hair across rooms and dad's verbal abuse is apparently a stream of very un-x-tian obscenities and plate or chair throwing at Zsu.
Vintage/Classic car motoring, or sailing boats are far better hobbies … with much more useful information to be learnt … and far better time spent on Sundays or whenever.
Try this great radio station. I’d be lost every day without their JAZZ and WORLD MUSIC. And when their CLASSICAL hits the air, I just turn my radio off and fire up the beautiful iPad and listen to the many past JAZZ programs that are always available online, 24hrs. And please note … there is zero THEISM content … ZERO !
Problem for xtians is that the stats show the longer a person waits to "come to Jesus." the less likely they are to do so. That's why xtians prey on children.
If I may ask a question, What is the difference between a pagan and a Wiccan? Can you suggest any books that I could read to further educate me on this subject (modern pagan religion). I will apologize in advance, just in case I was asking about something I shouldn’t! I just want to learn more, that’s all.
I found ressources online but they were in French and it was all blogs. As I a Pagan, I chose to worship Seshat, Egyptian Goddess of knowledge and wisdom. I am sorry, I can't help you more.
From what I understand of Wicca, it's part veneration of nature and part magic/witchcraft but a Wiccan would be better suited to explain.
And if sin travels at the speed of light, in 6,000 years it has infected 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% of the universe by now. Unless aliens do it too that is.
If you really want to travel fast, spaceships powered by bad news is the way to go. Trouble is nobody is ever very pleased to see you.
Any parent who was aware of what these camps do and sent their kids anyway are guilty of child abuse by definition. It isn't limited to Christianity, but the obsession with indoctrinating children before they can think for themselves is fundamental for the survival of all religions. Why is it ever acceptable to present something to a child as fact, when an educated adult would most likely reject if hearing it for the first time? These tactics are also an open admission as to just how weak their messages ultimately are.
Based on previous journalism about the 'troubled teen' camps, the parents generally don't know what the camp is doing and the camps actively prevent the teens from communicating back to the parents. I'm guessing there's a similar situation going on here, though I haven't seen the series.
I would also guess that the primary parental motivation is to prevent sex and drug use and making friends on the wrong side of the tracks - not to get their kid more Jesusy.
"the camps actively prevent the teens from communicating back to the parents"
I recall watching some talk show back in the late 80's/early 90's that was discussing child abuse at summer camps. Not religious camps, just regular run-of-the-mill summer camps, at a time when people were just beginning to wake up to the dangers of abuse at these places. One of the biggest red flags discussed were camps that did not allow the children to check in with their parents on a regular basis.
Fear plays an important part in the indoctrination. It has been used for millennia to keep the faithful from thinking for themselves and escaping the cult mentality. Imagine telling a small child that they or their parents are going to hell for eternity.
Yes. When they could be spending their precious time on stuff that matters, like trying to help people and make the world a little better for themselves and others.
Right there with ya. When I was in Kindergarten (I think that's about right, but not sure. Memories from that time period are kinda sketchy) through about the first half of grade grade school, we had a manic hellfire-and-brimstone preacher who loved talking about people "burning in hell forever and forever...and FOREVER!"
That is, when he wasn't talking about how the Rapture would leave behind a lot of shocked people who *thought* they were Christians just because they went to church, tithed, and occasionally read their Bibles. "One shall be taken...and the other left. SURPRISE!"
Where I come from (Australia) it's actually in school code of conduct policy that staff members are not allowed to push their opinions on the kids (unless it's something harmless like "I don't like apples", of course), for this very reason. Kids are *insanely* impressionable. Nature literally programs them to believe what adults tell them, no matter how awful or ridiculous.
Tellingly, we have our fair share of people like that including a racist as fuck politician (Peter Dutton) who came right out and said he wanted to be Australia's Trump, backed by a corrupt as hell zillionaire (Gina Reinhart). But when he tried that on, the population at large was so vehemently against it that not only did he not become Prime Minister, but he didn't even get enough votes to keep his seat. The creep is out on his arse because we the people were not going to stand for that shit and we told him so with our votes in no uncertain terms. It was one of few times I've felt proud of my country.
As I said, your country is more enlightened than mine. I'm a third generation war veteran who descends from at least six men who fought in the American Revolution. One branch of my family were third generation Americans at the time of the Revolution. My roots run very deep and I never thought things could get this bad.
Our voting system isn't anywhere near as hopelessly broken either. We don't have an Electoral College. Nor do we have that weird political cult of personality thing. I've actually got military roots too, as it happens, on my father's side. Grandfather served in Korea, great grandfather served in WW2. And I never would have thought it could get this bad either. Time and time again my friends and I (some of them American) were saying "oh that couldn't possibly happen" only to watch in disbelief as it did. Over and over again.
They would be screaming at the top of their lungs that this sort of thing should be prohibited and the leaders all arrested on terrorism charges. Zero self awareness. Zero self reflection. Zero realization that Jesus camps like this 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗿𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘀𝘁𝘀.
Talking to one of my older siblings yesterday and when I asked about her grandkids, she happily informed me that they would all be counselors at a xtian summer camp next month. That put a crimp on our conversation.
My older siblings did not escape the Catholic Church as I did and would you even believe that they are also MAGATS? I knew that you would.
A long time ago on The Experience Project website, we had a group called: "I Believe Raising Children With Religion Is CHILD ABUSE." As you might imagine, a great number of the issues that Hemant has discussed here also came up in those discussions, including that travesty known as "Jesus Camp." Personally, What is described in Shiny Happy People follows that same unfortunate pattern.
And this is an issue I find myself coming back to again and again: people putting religious ideology and doctrine over PEOPLE, and especially KIDS. You don't want to guess how that pisses me off.
Indoctrination schemes like this lead to child endangerment stories like yesterday. If I had to guess how much it pisses you off, I would suggest that rage burning with the fire of a thousand suns is a woefully inadequate description. I feel the same way.
My daughter was raised pretty much without religion, though she rubbed shoulders with a lot of believers as a kid and teen. To see her now is to see a sharp, accomplished, self-possessed woman and new mother.
I'll admit, I don't know what her personal beliefs are, and that's probably not even my business ... but I'm THRILLED at how she turned out!
None of this should be a surprise to anybody. There has always been an ascetic movement in Christianity, right from the beginning. The hermits that lived in the desert. Don’t have sex at all because it will distract you from God, or distract you from someone picking your pocket, or someone telling you to die because Jesus wants hymn #666 sung in Latin and not French. Live in poverty so that the pope can live in a palace. Flagellate yourself, torture yourself, beat yourself, starve yourself because the life to come is ever so much more glorious.
For a long time of course, that was true. The life they told you, the life they sold you, promised you, groomed you with – the life that was to come was far more glorious than the life you were living. And it was grooming, maybe not for sexual purposes, or maybe for sexual purposes.
Even when I was a kid, when my best friend was a Christian, but before I started to consider Christianity for myself, I was always rather taken the back by “onward Christian soldiers!” or “the battle hymn of the Republic!”— HE IS TRAMPLING OUT THE VINTAGE WHERE THE GRAPES OF WRATH ARE STORED. HE HAS LOOSED THE FATEFUL LIGHTNING OF HIS TERRIBLE SWIFT SWORD!” Blah blah blah.’
Quite a bit of odds with the whole idea of the meek and mild Prince of peace. Later, the more I read about Christianity and its wars, the more I began to understand the difference between the magic, myths, and miracles of the nice side of Christianity— leaving out things like the crucifixion and martyrs and so on— and the more practical/political side of Christianity— witch burning, slavery, politics and power…
The more I was appalled by it. And of course, as Hemant notes, there is the modern weaponization and militarization of Christianity in favor of everything that stands opposite to what Christianity is supposed to stand for. The abandonment of every principal— truth love fairness justice. The embrace of Trumpism.
As I wrote four years ago about the insurrection:
“As a Catholic acquaintance of mine wrote, the religious reich uses the unborn as a shield to protect themselves from any criticism or blowback for everything else they want to do. He wrote: “Because instead of defending the unborn, they have devoted their time and energy to defending every lie, cruelty, sadistic act, racist remark, misogynist bullying, sexual assault, kidnapping, call for violence, and criminal act he has committed. They voted for him this time, not because those things were bugs, but because they were features. If they had really only supported the prolife stuff and not all the other filth. they would have spoken against the other filth. They never did. They either remained silent or, as was far more often the case, they passionately supported it.”
In short, it’s all about a topic and a word that I keep using: CORRUPTION. And it isn’t garden variety, Al Capone style corruption, although it certainly is that. But this is what also goes along with that CORRUPTION. As Hemant wrote:
If you see the former as sin that must be overcome but the latter as acceptable for the greater good, your moral compass is irrevocably broken.
“There were hard-core military-style boot camps, too, for members of the “Honor Academy.” (How sleep deprivation and “rolling in vomit” bring kids closer to God is anyone’s guess.) “
Well that’s easy to explain. It breaks down the person so they can build them up again to be obedient mindless drones. It’s successful in the military and that’s why these cults, and the alpha bros, and other groups in this vein offer boot camp-like events. Tear you down to build you better, be the $6,000,000 Man.
I slept on a metal table in ‘Nam. Some wiseasses rolled a firecracker under that table. It went off and the guys who did it later told me “You didn’t even flinch.”
Inflation, he's the $66,000,000,000 Man now. (I'm old enough to remember when a million dollars meant you could live an extravagant lifestyle and still never run out of money. Now in half the country it won't buy you a 3 bedroom/2 bath.
So this is appropriate for this article as well. When you see it, it becomes so obvious. This is the quora discussion about why folks are expected to evangelize, brainwashing. I know I posted it yesterday, but it fits today too.
Like I said earlier in this thread (bears repeating), these Christian bootcamp are designed to create mindless, obedient child/teen soldiers for jeezyboy who won’t question any order given them.
I never saw Shiny Happy People, but I did watch Jesus Camp. The absolute mind fucking these “Christians” do is absolutely abusive. Those who come out on the other side of this insanity deserve our admiration.
Dog-earing a book page is a sin. Any scrap of paper can be used as a bookmark. I can't even throw away the book on DOS in my bookcase for Thor's sake. Only phonebooks am I able to recycle, and it's been several years since anyone sent me one.
I used to buy the books I wanted to read while "in the field" at the airport, and I would use the boarding pass portion of my ticket as a bookmark. I suspect that, if you checked my library, at least half of those books would have a boarding pass in them!
True yesterday, true today, true tomorrow. These are first and foremost grifts. These guys prey on the worry of parents about their teens. They promise to fix the teen, they take the parents' money, they use the teen as slave labor, and the moment it looks like the money spigot is turning off, they leave to pursue another grift (usually the exact same business model in a different place...until nationwide news forces them into a different grift entirely).
So, where’s our buddy to moderately tell us how unpopular this is within the Christian community but not actually stand against it? I’m coming up to my lunch break and need some milquetoast with my soup.
I just posted another video over there to piss him off. Or rather to keep him thinking about his position and challenge how he’s finding ways to defend it. It is indefensible, but he’s tenacious.
Davy redneck is a Christian nationalist (even though Davy redneck denies it) who knows he has the ultimate “truth”, so anything we tell him is wrong and evil/demonic. Like creationists, Davy redneck will never change his mind no matter how many facts or how much evidence we present to him.
Davy redneck is in his Christian nationalist bubble and wants to stay there. Plus I think Davy redneck truly enjoys the suffering of non Christians, including I bet the suffering of any of the atheists on this blog should anything tragic happens.
I hope you are right, I don’t mind being wrong on this! Yet, Davy redneck defending genocide in Gaza is extremely troubling for me, that what lead me to think what I thought and said. That might not of come out right, so I hope you get what I mean!
We had one idiot who burned popcorn several times. It managed to set off the smoke detectors every time, which brought the fire department, which meant we all had to exit the building and stand around in the parking lot. Which really didn't go over well one winter day when it was a mixture of rain, sleet, and snow outside...
William and Susan Trollinger are wonderful folks that rightfully exposes the deception of Dumb Idiot Ham's toxic creationist ideology and the US vs Them mentality that Dumb Idiot Ham heavily and forcefully preach about in his putrid faculties. They've just published an article about Dumb Idiot Ham's toxic Bible/Creationist ideology that denies human causing climate change while endorsing QAnon lies and crap that gives people like me the clear impression that Dumb Idiot Ham and his aids are MAGAts who are in league with that Stupid idiot Trump. Have a look at it here.
I got pulled into this bullshit “Christian ministry” as a teenager in Canada. Was ready to go on a mission trip to Russia but had to go through a two week “team building” camp in Texas first. It was horrible anyway and not any different from typical evangelical/pentecostal/charismatic indoctrination you’d find in so many churches at that time as well.
Luckily…? Perhaps? I was only on site for a couple days before I got very sick and, after another couple days & nights at a local hospital clinic type place where I was underwent a barrage of mostly useless medical tests. A doctor told me that I wasn’t healthy enough for any of this and should really just go home.
This of course did not happen right away. I guess it was necessary for some reason to make absolutely sure that I was REALLY truly unwell enough to be allowed to pack it in… When that finally did happen after I was forced to basically confront people who were “in charge” of … again this was unclear.. and weakly attempt to communicate my situation to them- more than once to be sure- was I reluctantly driven back to the Airport and dropped off, completely dehydrated and exhausted and alone. I honestly don’t know how the Hell I managed to get checked in, through security and onto the correct plane at the right gate without passing out or raising someones suspicions and possibly winding up in yet another horrible situation, but I did and I got home and Never the Hell again did I show or give any support or even interest in friggin Teen Mania.
Fuck Ron Luce and everyone else with that place and all others like it. Thank you for furthering the sewing of the necessary seeds that would eventually grow into my golden ticket OUT of the cesspool of Evangelical lies, hypocrisy, hate and control. 🖕
𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑑-𝑐𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑚𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑎𝑟𝑦-𝑠𝑡𝑦𝑙𝑒 𝑏𝑜𝑜𝑡 𝑐𝑎𝑚𝑝𝑠, 𝑡𝑜𝑜, 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑚𝑒𝑚𝑏𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 “𝐻𝑜𝑛𝑜𝑟 𝐴𝑐𝑎𝑑𝑒𝑚𝑦.” (𝐻𝑜𝑤 𝑠𝑙𝑒𝑒𝑝 𝑑𝑒𝑝𝑟𝑖𝑣𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑑 “𝑟𝑜𝑙𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑛 𝑣𝑜𝑚𝑖𝑡” 𝑏𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑘𝑖𝑑𝑠 𝑐𝑙𝑜𝑠𝑒𝑟 𝑡𝑜 𝐺𝑜𝑑 𝑖𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑦𝑜𝑛𝑒’𝑠 𝑔𝑢𝑒𝑠𝑠.)
That isn't about bringing kids "closer to God". It's about tearing the kids down to subsequently build them back up to be obedient little soldiers.
The military figured that out a long time ago, but after the initial humbling out phase it's all about self-esteem, and I don't see that part happening with these church camps. You do not want service members who do not believe in themselves.
I just pictured a soldier in a combat zone suddenly throwing down his gun and telling the enemy "just go ahead and shoot me - I'm a worthless piece of shit anyway".
It is the whole sorry process of enculting people. Parents sending their kids off to be made into Zombies.Evangelical Christian Nationalism is an authoritarian cult and nothing else.
Yeah, that quote from one of the campers- "How do you know you're in a cult if that's your normal?" really hit me, because it explains MAGA too.
There's the Willis family, TV celebs pre-Duggar. Dad's went to prison for raping his daughters. On YT, his daughters talk about it. When asked why they didn't report it, one said they thought that this was normal. Cos their family was living in obedience to jesus, all those other heathen teens in the world must be getting it a lot worse than them. Mum must have known, but was so brainwashed, she daren't even mention it. Maybe hubby beat her, like the odious Steve Anderson regularly assaults his wife. Her FB page is all sweetness and light about him and her poor battered, abused kids.
So I wasn't familiar with the family you mentioned, and went looking. That may have been an error in judgment, but the Wiki article is relatively small. If anyone would like to read, here's 𝔜𝔢 𝔒𝔩𝔡𝔢 𝔏𝔦𝔫𝔨: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Willis_Family
It says he'll serve 40years!!!!!!!!!!!! So there is some justice left in the world. I want to see Stevie and Zsu Anderson prosecuted, YT interviews with their oldest 4 kids are graphic in their descriptions of physical abuse. They had to attend church on hot days in long-sleeved clothes to hide bruised limbs, were dragged by their ears or hair across rooms and dad's verbal abuse is apparently a stream of very un-x-tian obscenities and plate or chair throwing at Zsu.
GMTA.
THEISM … what a terrible hobby !
Vintage/Classic car motoring, or sailing boats are far better hobbies … with much more useful information to be learnt … and far better time spent on Sundays or whenever.
Agreed ... and please throw in high-end stereo and MUSIC of whatever kind works for YOU!
Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
Try this great radio station. I’d be lost every day without their JAZZ and WORLD MUSIC. And when their CLASSICAL hits the air, I just turn my radio off and fire up the beautiful iPad and listen to the many past JAZZ programs that are always available online, 24hrs. And please note … there is zero THEISM content … ZERO !
Radio 5mbs 99.9FM
https://5mbs.com/
Jazz and world music, eh? Makes me think of my FAVORITE ensemble! Ever listen to Oregon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAcGuRSVvMA
In the USA we love good little obedient soldiers - Full Metal Jacket
For any film buffs out there, “Come and See” is also a fantastic anti-war/horror movie 🍿
They should have gone into the marines instead/s.
Seems we need a broader definition of child molestation. If this isn't molestation by Christians, I don't know what is.
Oh, and sin isn't any more real than GodJesus.
Sometimes I think it should be illegal to expose children to any religion before the age they can legally consume alcoholic beverages.
I've championed religion being 21 and over only.
Problem for xtians is that the stats show the longer a person waits to "come to Jesus." the less likely they are to do so. That's why xtians prey on children.
Exactly. Who would ever sign up for all the bullshit at age 25? Never happen.
I must be the exception, I became Pagan around 25 after being raised secular 🤣
If I may ask a question, What is the difference between a pagan and a Wiccan? Can you suggest any books that I could read to further educate me on this subject (modern pagan religion). I will apologize in advance, just in case I was asking about something I shouldn’t! I just want to learn more, that’s all.
Thank you in advance Black Hole and DM mourner.
I found ressources online but they were in French and it was all blogs. As I a Pagan, I chose to worship Seshat, Egyptian Goddess of knowledge and wisdom. I am sorry, I can't help you more.
From what I understand of Wicca, it's part veneration of nature and part magic/witchcraft but a Wiccan would be better suited to explain.
But your brain was fully grown by then.
Also I don't see Pagans forcing anyone to live by their rules. The many Pagans I know are very chill.
And except for the mentally ill, religion would die out.
They seem to be the majority in the "flocks".
perfect comment,and oh so TRUE ! (sigh)
Groomers.
And Catholic babies!
25, the adult brain age.
😂😂😂
And if sin travels at the speed of light, in 6,000 years it has infected 0.00000000000000000000000000000001% of the universe by now. Unless aliens do it too that is.
If you really want to travel fast, spaceships powered by bad news is the way to go. Trouble is nobody is ever very pleased to see you.
It is "spiritual rape".
I’ve called xtian proselytizing date rape. They don’t take NO! for an answer.
Any parent who was aware of what these camps do and sent their kids anyway are guilty of child abuse by definition. It isn't limited to Christianity, but the obsession with indoctrinating children before they can think for themselves is fundamental for the survival of all religions. Why is it ever acceptable to present something to a child as fact, when an educated adult would most likely reject if hearing it for the first time? These tactics are also an open admission as to just how weak their messages ultimately are.
Based on previous journalism about the 'troubled teen' camps, the parents generally don't know what the camp is doing and the camps actively prevent the teens from communicating back to the parents. I'm guessing there's a similar situation going on here, though I haven't seen the series.
I would also guess that the primary parental motivation is to prevent sex and drug use and making friends on the wrong side of the tracks - not to get their kid more Jesusy.
"the camps actively prevent the teens from communicating back to the parents"
I recall watching some talk show back in the late 80's/early 90's that was discussing child abuse at summer camps. Not religious camps, just regular run-of-the-mill summer camps, at a time when people were just beginning to wake up to the dangers of abuse at these places. One of the biggest red flags discussed were camps that did not allow the children to check in with their parents on a regular basis.
Fear plays an important part in the indoctrination. It has been used for millennia to keep the faithful from thinking for themselves and escaping the cult mentality. Imagine telling a small child that they or their parents are going to hell for eternity.
As a young child I used to worry a lot that I wasn’t a good enough Christian to avoid hell. A lot!
Sadly, there are still adults who do the same.
Yes. When they could be spending their precious time on stuff that matters, like trying to help people and make the world a little better for themselves and others.
Right there with ya. When I was in Kindergarten (I think that's about right, but not sure. Memories from that time period are kinda sketchy) through about the first half of grade grade school, we had a manic hellfire-and-brimstone preacher who loved talking about people "burning in hell forever and forever...and FOREVER!"
That is, when he wasn't talking about how the Rapture would leave behind a lot of shocked people who *thought* they were Christians just because they went to church, tithed, and occasionally read their Bibles. "One shall be taken...and the other left. SURPRISE!"
A repeated theme in many churches of this kind, and one which Seth Andrews gave significant voice to is: "Get Them While They're Young."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEUqWKfdLeM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACVTHHPA37E
I rejected it as a seven year-old, it just didn't make sense.
Where I come from (Australia) it's actually in school code of conduct policy that staff members are not allowed to push their opinions on the kids (unless it's something harmless like "I don't like apples", of course), for this very reason. Kids are *insanely* impressionable. Nature literally programs them to believe what adults tell them, no matter how awful or ridiculous.
Your country is more enlightened than mine. My country is being governed by a collection of petulant adolescents.
Tellingly, we have our fair share of people like that including a racist as fuck politician (Peter Dutton) who came right out and said he wanted to be Australia's Trump, backed by a corrupt as hell zillionaire (Gina Reinhart). But when he tried that on, the population at large was so vehemently against it that not only did he not become Prime Minister, but he didn't even get enough votes to keep his seat. The creep is out on his arse because we the people were not going to stand for that shit and we told him so with our votes in no uncertain terms. It was one of few times I've felt proud of my country.
As I said, your country is more enlightened than mine. I'm a third generation war veteran who descends from at least six men who fought in the American Revolution. One branch of my family were third generation Americans at the time of the Revolution. My roots run very deep and I never thought things could get this bad.
Our voting system isn't anywhere near as hopelessly broken either. We don't have an Electoral College. Nor do we have that weird political cult of personality thing. I've actually got military roots too, as it happens, on my father's side. Grandfather served in Korea, great grandfather served in WW2. And I never would have thought it could get this bad either. Time and time again my friends and I (some of them American) were saying "oh that couldn't possibly happen" only to watch in disbelief as it did. Over and over again.
Petulant enraged adolescents prone to tantrums and out to punish the entire country for not looking and behaving exactly like them.
𝐼𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑎 𝑑𝑜𝑐𝑢𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑒𝑠 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝐼𝑠𝑙𝑎𝑚, 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦, 𝑖𝑡’𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 ℎ𝑎𝑟𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑑𝑖𝑐𝑡 𝑤ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑆𝑜𝑢𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑛 𝐵𝑎𝑝𝑡𝑖𝑠𝑡 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑏𝑒 𝑠𝑎𝑦𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑖𝑡.
They would be screaming at the top of their lungs that this sort of thing should be prohibited and the leaders all arrested on terrorism charges. Zero self awareness. Zero self reflection. Zero realization that Jesus camps like this 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗿𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘀𝘁𝘀.
Talking to one of my older siblings yesterday and when I asked about her grandkids, she happily informed me that they would all be counselors at a xtian summer camp next month. That put a crimp on our conversation.
My older siblings did not escape the Catholic Church as I did and would you even believe that they are also MAGATS? I knew that you would.
Look at it this way, they'll still hook up and have sex like normal kids, the girls will just feel guilty about it.
Sorry to hear that. It sucks having MAGA relatives, especially when one can remember them as formerly being more or less sane and reasonable people.
A long time ago on The Experience Project website, we had a group called: "I Believe Raising Children With Religion Is CHILD ABUSE." As you might imagine, a great number of the issues that Hemant has discussed here also came up in those discussions, including that travesty known as "Jesus Camp." Personally, What is described in Shiny Happy People follows that same unfortunate pattern.
And this is an issue I find myself coming back to again and again: people putting religious ideology and doctrine over PEOPLE, and especially KIDS. You don't want to guess how that pisses me off.
Indoctrination schemes like this lead to child endangerment stories like yesterday. If I had to guess how much it pisses you off, I would suggest that rage burning with the fire of a thousand suns is a woefully inadequate description. I feel the same way.
My daughter was raised pretty much without religion, though she rubbed shoulders with a lot of believers as a kid and teen. To see her now is to see a sharp, accomplished, self-possessed woman and new mother.
I'll admit, I don't know what her personal beliefs are, and that's probably not even my business ... but I'm THRILLED at how she turned out!
Good parenting!
Our most valuable asset, our children, are being used and abused. It’s not just the church, either. Child predation is everywhere.
You really need to think twice before bringing a child into THIS world.
I thought about it and the 80's seemed too nihilistic, so, I opted not to.
Same here. The older I get, the more I'm confirmed in that decision. Even my religious mother said it'd be fine with her if I didn't have children.
I’m the youngest. My mother said I did not have to have any kids, and if they had better birth control in her day there would not have been six of us!
None of this should be a surprise to anybody. There has always been an ascetic movement in Christianity, right from the beginning. The hermits that lived in the desert. Don’t have sex at all because it will distract you from God, or distract you from someone picking your pocket, or someone telling you to die because Jesus wants hymn #666 sung in Latin and not French. Live in poverty so that the pope can live in a palace. Flagellate yourself, torture yourself, beat yourself, starve yourself because the life to come is ever so much more glorious.
For a long time of course, that was true. The life they told you, the life they sold you, promised you, groomed you with – the life that was to come was far more glorious than the life you were living. And it was grooming, maybe not for sexual purposes, or maybe for sexual purposes.
Even when I was a kid, when my best friend was a Christian, but before I started to consider Christianity for myself, I was always rather taken the back by “onward Christian soldiers!” or “the battle hymn of the Republic!”— HE IS TRAMPLING OUT THE VINTAGE WHERE THE GRAPES OF WRATH ARE STORED. HE HAS LOOSED THE FATEFUL LIGHTNING OF HIS TERRIBLE SWIFT SWORD!” Blah blah blah.’
Quite a bit of odds with the whole idea of the meek and mild Prince of peace. Later, the more I read about Christianity and its wars, the more I began to understand the difference between the magic, myths, and miracles of the nice side of Christianity— leaving out things like the crucifixion and martyrs and so on— and the more practical/political side of Christianity— witch burning, slavery, politics and power…
The more I was appalled by it. And of course, as Hemant notes, there is the modern weaponization and militarization of Christianity in favor of everything that stands opposite to what Christianity is supposed to stand for. The abandonment of every principal— truth love fairness justice. The embrace of Trumpism.
As I wrote four years ago about the insurrection:
“As a Catholic acquaintance of mine wrote, the religious reich uses the unborn as a shield to protect themselves from any criticism or blowback for everything else they want to do. He wrote: “Because instead of defending the unborn, they have devoted their time and energy to defending every lie, cruelty, sadistic act, racist remark, misogynist bullying, sexual assault, kidnapping, call for violence, and criminal act he has committed. They voted for him this time, not because those things were bugs, but because they were features. If they had really only supported the prolife stuff and not all the other filth. they would have spoken against the other filth. They never did. They either remained silent or, as was far more often the case, they passionately supported it.”
In short, it’s all about a topic and a word that I keep using: CORRUPTION. And it isn’t garden variety, Al Capone style corruption, although it certainly is that. But this is what also goes along with that CORRUPTION. As Hemant wrote:
If you see the former as sin that must be overcome but the latter as acceptable for the greater good, your moral compass is irrevocably broken.
“There were hard-core military-style boot camps, too, for members of the “Honor Academy.” (How sleep deprivation and “rolling in vomit” bring kids closer to God is anyone’s guess.) “
Well that’s easy to explain. It breaks down the person so they can build them up again to be obedient mindless drones. It’s successful in the military and that’s why these cults, and the alpha bros, and other groups in this vein offer boot camp-like events. Tear you down to build you better, be the $6,000,000 Man.
No sleep deprivation and rolling in vomit while I was in Basic, in tech school, in 'Nam or stateside. Maybe that's why I'm an atheist today. ;)
(Too late for the military. I stopped believing in religious balloon juice when i was 8)
Actually, the Navy taught me to sleep anytime any where.
I slept on a metal table in ‘Nam. Some wiseasses rolled a firecracker under that table. It went off and the guys who did it later told me “You didn’t even flinch.”
" It breaks down the person so they can build them up again to be obedient mindless drones."
Just like in George Orwell's book "1984."
Inflation, he's the $66,000,000,000 Man now. (I'm old enough to remember when a million dollars meant you could live an extravagant lifestyle and still never run out of money. Now in half the country it won't buy you a 3 bedroom/2 bath.
So this is appropriate for this article as well. When you see it, it becomes so obvious. This is the quora discussion about why folks are expected to evangelize, brainwashing. I know I posted it yesterday, but it fits today too.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/edd2d053fe68ced33479baa3d1640d5c015a7d4e7ba3aef240799208094886fc.png
Yup it's brainwashing. It's how cults survive.
Like I said earlier in this thread (bears repeating), these Christian bootcamp are designed to create mindless, obedient child/teen soldiers for jeezyboy who won’t question any order given them.
I never saw Shiny Happy People, but I did watch Jesus Camp. The absolute mind fucking these “Christians” do is absolutely abusive. Those who come out on the other side of this insanity deserve our admiration.
"the goal of abstinence from sin."
Sin, like unicorns and leprechauns is the stuff of fairy tales that mature adults realize does not exist.
Self
Inflicted
Nonsense
Dog-earing a book page is a sin. Any scrap of paper can be used as a bookmark. I can't even throw away the book on DOS in my bookcase for Thor's sake. Only phonebooks am I able to recycle, and it's been several years since anyone sent me one.
"Any scrap of paper can be used as a bookmark. "
My brother used a $20 and my mom returned the book to the library.
I used to buy the books I wanted to read while "in the field" at the airport, and I would use the boarding pass portion of my ticket as a bookmark. I suspect that, if you checked my library, at least half of those books would have a boarding pass in them!
D'oh!
Tax write-off.
Self-Inflicted Nonsense. I LIKE that!
I would have loved it but my maths* teachers didn't agree.
*What's the use of droites and quadrature du cercle when you could learn more about Clio and its mysteries ?
Always partial to cos myself.
I always preferred cosh. Great outlook on life, always positive.
“I have always been here.”
I was waiting for that.
𝑇𝑒𝑒𝑛 𝑀𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑎 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑦 𝑐𝑎𝑚𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑛 𝑒𝑛𝑑 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑎 𝑑𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑑𝑒 𝑎𝑔𝑜. 𝐶𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑡ℎ? 𝐹𝑖𝑛𝑎𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑎𝑙 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑠 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑡𝑜𝑝 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑙𝑖𝑠𝑡
True yesterday, true today, true tomorrow. These are first and foremost grifts. These guys prey on the worry of parents about their teens. They promise to fix the teen, they take the parents' money, they use the teen as slave labor, and the moment it looks like the money spigot is turning off, they leave to pursue another grift (usually the exact same business model in a different place...until nationwide news forces them into a different grift entirely).
So, where’s our buddy to moderately tell us how unpopular this is within the Christian community but not actually stand against it? I’m coming up to my lunch break and need some milquetoast with my soup.
Not enough lurkers have shown up yet to make his comment worthwhile.
Probably still defending genocide.
I just posted another video over there to piss him off. Or rather to keep him thinking about his position and challenge how he’s finding ways to defend it. It is indefensible, but he’s tenacious.
"tenacious" - should be tedious.
And tiresome.
That bad ?
For what I've seen? Yeah 😝
No quiero conocer. I already don't sleep enough.
He’s a cultist and deprogramming is difficult if not impossible for many.
"Or rather to keep him thinking..."
Is that possible?
Davy redneck is a Christian nationalist (even though Davy redneck denies it) who knows he has the ultimate “truth”, so anything we tell him is wrong and evil/demonic. Like creationists, Davy redneck will never change his mind no matter how many facts or how much evidence we present to him.
Davy redneck is in his Christian nationalist bubble and wants to stay there. Plus I think Davy redneck truly enjoys the suffering of non Christians, including I bet the suffering of any of the atheists on this blog should anything tragic happens.
No. I've seen nothing from him that would lead me to go that far.
I hope you are right, I don’t mind being wrong on this! Yet, Davy redneck defending genocide in Gaza is extremely troubling for me, that what lead me to think what I thought and said. That might not of come out right, so I hope you get what I mean!
I pointed out Bibi has contributed to keeping Hamas going with a Canadian CBC article explaining his corruption. His reply was "I'm not a fan of his."
He knows but still supports genocide.
Bon appétit.
It’ll probably be McDonalds cause I almost have time to go home and cook something but not quite. The new office location is now in my town.
Bring some fish to reheat in the office microwave. Then they'll decide it's okay for you to work from home.
Burning popcorn works too.
We had one idiot who burned popcorn several times. It managed to set off the smoke detectors every time, which brought the fire department, which meant we all had to exit the building and stand around in the parking lot. Which really didn't go over well one winter day when it was a mixture of rain, sleet, and snow outside...
William and Susan Trollinger are wonderful folks that rightfully exposes the deception of Dumb Idiot Ham's toxic creationist ideology and the US vs Them mentality that Dumb Idiot Ham heavily and forcefully preach about in his putrid faculties. They've just published an article about Dumb Idiot Ham's toxic Bible/Creationist ideology that denies human causing climate change while endorsing QAnon lies and crap that gives people like me the clear impression that Dumb Idiot Ham and his aids are MAGAts who are in league with that Stupid idiot Trump. Have a look at it here.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/735722
While the goal of abstinence from sin might be laudable
___________
Well, if you manage to get the definition of "sin" correct, it's laudable.
Sir Pratchett's definition is still the best one I've heard so far. Sin happens when you begin to see people as things, including yourself.
Even the bible includes the verse that your "love of God" is shown by well you love people.
Sounds like the "Joshua generation" bullshit that produced perverts like Josh Duggar.
I got pulled into this bullshit “Christian ministry” as a teenager in Canada. Was ready to go on a mission trip to Russia but had to go through a two week “team building” camp in Texas first. It was horrible anyway and not any different from typical evangelical/pentecostal/charismatic indoctrination you’d find in so many churches at that time as well.
Luckily…? Perhaps? I was only on site for a couple days before I got very sick and, after another couple days & nights at a local hospital clinic type place where I was underwent a barrage of mostly useless medical tests. A doctor told me that I wasn’t healthy enough for any of this and should really just go home.
This of course did not happen right away. I guess it was necessary for some reason to make absolutely sure that I was REALLY truly unwell enough to be allowed to pack it in… When that finally did happen after I was forced to basically confront people who were “in charge” of … again this was unclear.. and weakly attempt to communicate my situation to them- more than once to be sure- was I reluctantly driven back to the Airport and dropped off, completely dehydrated and exhausted and alone. I honestly don’t know how the Hell I managed to get checked in, through security and onto the correct plane at the right gate without passing out or raising someones suspicions and possibly winding up in yet another horrible situation, but I did and I got home and Never the Hell again did I show or give any support or even interest in friggin Teen Mania.
Fuck Ron Luce and everyone else with that place and all others like it. Thank you for furthering the sewing of the necessary seeds that would eventually grow into my golden ticket OUT of the cesspool of Evangelical lies, hypocrisy, hate and control. 🖕
I am so sorry you were used in such a heinous fashion. You deserve better.