451 Comments

Overturn separation of Church and State? Wtf is GOING ON. We are the United States of America plenty not perfect here but we DO NOT FORCE religious beliefs on to people who don't want to be religious or have other religious beliefs than we do. Not happening in Massachusetts that's for dm sure.

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"we DO NOT FORCE religious beliefs on to people who don't want to be religious or have other religious beliefs than we do."

I hate to disappoint you, but as someone who grew up in the gulf south half a century ago, let me assure you the US did, and does do, just exactly that.

What has happened is that those willing to push back have finally gotten enough of a political and social voice to actually make a difference.

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I have only grown up in New England. I'm sorry the gulf South is like that. Some parts of the US might be ultra conservative Christian but not across the entire country. This is new to me. Massachusetts is not conservative Christian.

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I genuinely don't know the answer to this question, and if you don't know either, I'll look the answer up, but:

How many non-Christian governors has Massachusetts had?

My point in asking (which might not be borne out by the answer, mind you) is that a place doesn't have to be the site of the Jimmy Swaggart Bible College to have Christianity as the presumptive acceptable faith.

To put it another way (and again, I don't know the answer, which is why I'm asking), Sunday mornings, what do you hear: church bells or a Call to Prayer?

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Christian Governors in Massachusetts dio Not force Christianity onto anybody. I live a five minute walk from a Muslim Mosque there are Jewish temples here and trust me if all we heard were Church bells every Sunday morning at 7 am there would be complaints! My church like other churches in the area only ring the bells if there's a wedding or a death. And unlike other states we have a huge LGBTQ+ city on Cape Cod-- Provincetown. We are not ultra conservative but yah it is Christian and we tend to be more tolerant than say Texas or other states. We would not tolerate a Ron DeSantis government here in anyway.

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I'm happy to hear about the local religious diversity.

And it's less about the governor forcing Christianity on others than having to be one themself to be elected.

In any case, thank you for engaging, and I apologize if I gave offense.

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No offense what so ever. We are not the South here in Massachusetts. And yes most of our Governors have been Christian. I don't look at a political candidate and vote for them based on their religion. Have a great weekend wherever you are. The heat is starting a little bit earlier here than I'd like!

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that's great, but this story is about a small number of "religious" people trying to change the FOUNDATIONS that made our country GREAT!! Believe this: the founders are trying to crawl out of their graves as we speak!!

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Just read the Bill of Rights! Since seperation of church & state is the FIRST one, it won't take you long to get your answer! I recommend reading all 10 amendments though! Good luck too you! ✌️💙

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READ THE "BILL OF RIGHTS" there are 10 of them, but the FIRST one has your answer! I learned this in middle school... so they will teach the 10 commandments, in public school which is FICTION!! 🤯 But, not our Bill of Rights? Written by real men that are real laws and have REAL consequences if not obeyed!!?WOW! Please do yourself a favor and read the Constitution & Bill of Rights! ✌️💙

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DITTO from California!! No church in public school or government. ✌️💙

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Massachusetts and California! Yes!

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Heck ya!! 💙✌️

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I think that if tRump and his merry band of fascists regain power then they will gleefully turn the blue states into ghettos.

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And then the economy will collapse quickly. They forget that the red states are primarily financed by the blue ones. How many economic and religious refugees can Canada absorb?

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Bingo! ^^^^^^^^^

The Deep Red states in the South cannot cover their bills, they receive the most disproportionated funding from the federal government (caveat being Florida and Texas who bring in substantial tax revenue)......

Taxes from Blue States such as New Jersey, Illinois, Minnesota, New York, California keep these regressive states afloat. California puts in nearly $600 million, but only takes $116 million.

It's the dreaded "redistribution of wealth" that the regressive Republican states claimed it hate, it's woke - they only like woke when it benefits them.

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too true!!

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Which is accurate, yet Fox tells hem they support the blue cities. Fucking propagandists, the ones who scream the loudest about "the takers" rarely pay anything at all.

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.... by welfare that Democratic states ie: NY & CA put in the most $$!! That's OK so long as these 1%ers start paying their fair share! OMG can u imagine what we could do for this country with their tax dollars?? Teachers & cops would benefit greatly! So would our next generation! Instead of 700 kids entering foster care EVERY SINGLE DAY! 😤😡 So, VOTE it is our greatest power!✌️💙

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tRump knows he can't touch New England. The day he tries I will stand with Massachusetts. If the entire US becomes Trump tertitory Massachusetts won't. Not Ever. Not Even.

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I hope you are right, but tRump wants to use the insurrection act to force all citizens to abase themselves before him and he will do whatever it takes to retain the support of the christian nationalists.

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If tRump regains power? No insurrection in 4 years. Nope. He won't want to leave. So we would go to war to oust him. We do Not have dictators here.

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Which is why the idea of changing the Constitution is so abhorrent the first amendment says separation of church and state so I think the founders thought that was pretty important even before the right to bear arms is that separation from religion.

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They’ve had experience dealing with Cthulhu level madness. Trump barely registers as mild headache.

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Have you read any of Charles Stross's 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘓𝘢𝘶𝘯𝘥𝘳𝘺 𝘍𝘪𝘭𝘦𝘴 stories?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Laundry_Files

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Ya I've always liked people from Boston!!

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We aren't too bad up here! I've always liked California! California is good.

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That's why this election I'm not asking my friends to vote, I will be bringing them WITH me!!!🥳✌️💙🤙

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The system won't let me upvote, so ++

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Jun 21·edited Jun 21

I have a workaround. Click on commenters' nyms or avatars. Click on Likes (if it doesn't go there automatically). If you see any "blank" hearts, click on them to turn them red.

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Simpler workaround is to change browsers.

That method worked for me.

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Jun 21·edited Jun 21

I tried that. Didn't work. Same issue.

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Upvote noted! Thank you! ++

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I just read Tim Alberta’s The Kingdom, The Power and the Glory-these people all think they’re fighting a holy war and Trump is the general leading the troops.

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Scary. Because when fanatics like tRump and his ilk think they are right? Nothing can stop them. He just CAN NOT get in again.

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He's a good author, I read an excerpt of that.

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Which is why SCOTUS delaying Jack Smith's case even longer is soooo suspect!! Especially when the answer to a blanket immunity for Presidents is obviously "NO"! I think an ELECTED Prosecutor should be able to bring an indictment without worry that another court, we did NOT VOTE FOR, could stop them!! This feels like a conspiracy more & more! "The rightful masters of both congresses and COURTS are the PEOPLE!" Abraham Lincoln

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"Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?” -- Sandra Day O'Connor, U.S. Supreme Court Justice

The people who would break down the barriers between church and state always seem to be operating under the assumption it will be their tribe calling the shots for everyone else. They should be imagining the tribe they hate most having control over their lives. Neither this country nor the wider world faces a single problem that has religion as a solution. Religion has caused vastly more problems than it ever solved.

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But this time it will work for us. It was because when it failed, those people were heathens and didn't have enough faith.

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Yep, totally. Can Europe export their crazi... I mean faithfuls like Australia do ?

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You did. This is the result.

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Last time I checked marine la peine (2 minutes ago) and her awful niece were still polluting France. Not counting eric zeymmour 🤮r

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So you grew new ones. Proves exporting them doesn’t work and just makes things worse when they get nuclear weapons and decided they are the world cops, and you see what the majority of the U.S. thinks a cop is.

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If someone believes they serve the Really True Real God, and other people don't, it follows that they would think their outcome would be different.

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THIS^^^

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𝐻𝑒 𝑤𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑆𝑢𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑒 𝐶𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 1963 𝑆𝑢𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑒 𝐶𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑡 𝑟𝑢𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑛 𝐴𝑏𝑖𝑛𝑔𝑡𝑜𝑛 𝑆𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝐷𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑡 𝑣. 𝑆𝑐ℎ𝑒𝑚𝑝𝑝, 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐿𝑜𝑟𝑑’𝑠 𝑃𝑟𝑎𝑦𝑒𝑟 𝑖𝑛 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑜𝑙𝑠. 𝑅𝑒𝑠𝑐ℎ𝑘𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑡 𝑎 “𝑤𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑠ℎ𝑒𝑑” 𝑟𝑢𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑢𝑠ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑛 𝑎 “𝑠𝑒𝑐𝑢𝑙𝑎𝑟 𝑠𝑜𝑐𝑖𝑒𝑡𝑦...”

Abington didn't "usher in" anything. This nation was founded as having a SECULAR government from the get-go, and ever since that time, there have been Christians who cannot deal with not having direct access to the levers of power, wanting to superimpose their misguided faith on the government and therewith, the nation. What we have here are more Christians "saying the quiet part out loud," expressing their desire to what would amount to overthrowing the democracy which was so carefully crafted some 240 years ago and replacing it with a Christian theocracy. The hell of it is, with the current makeup of the Supreme Court, they MIGHT just get away with it.

Still, I can't imagine SCOTUS making a less popular or more problematic decision. For all the apathy Hemant rightly cites, such a ruling would face massive opposition from those of us who actually care about the state of our government and its basis and reliance on laws and not men. I see the reaction as being major-league ugly and having considerable fallout. Which is why it will be fought long before SCOTUS sees any such bill or law, fought by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, by American Atheists and Americans United and the ACLU.

We WILL fight ... because our freedoms hang in the balance.

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These idiots do not get that whole correlation does not equal causation bit.

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About the only thing they DO get is their desire to be in control ... and I STILL think that it all boils down to their own insecurity about their faith, that they can't deal with alternative opinions and beliefs and need to FORCE conformity to salve their feelings.

I don't mind telling you, I'm seriously concerned about this mess.

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Yup.

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Ditto.

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Someone should tell them about how going to church makes people into pedophiles, but doing drag shows doesn’t.

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Exactly!!! Pedophiles wear robes and collars and suits (and carry bibles) ......they don't wear drag queen outfits.

RuPaul is safe......Father Joseph who has been moved around to his 10th church now is not safe.

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I am seriously conserned too. And I wonder about my inlaws in US. A few years ago, before DT, we offered them a trip, for visiting us. It never flew. But now, in the last two weeks, several of them has asked to visit us next summer. And I wonder why now.

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If baby donny wins, they may not want to leave.

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Blasphemy has always only been a challenge to their power. If you don't tow their line, you had better still conform. I fear a dominionist inquisition.

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I have exactly ZERO intention of toeing their line or any other, excepting the laws of this nation. If they want to try to force their hand on me, they will discover with alarming rapidity that they have made a MASSIVE mistake.

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They also don't know actual history, just religious myths about it.

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I don’t have as much faith in the US as you do. People don’t see the significance of the ability to appoint judges until it affects them (ie. Abortion!). I am not sure if people pay enough attention to these things to understand what it will mean for them until they actually see it affecting them. Abortion is a big issue. contraception? LGBTQ+ rights?

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And it’s not just about SCOTUS, it’s about the appeals courts, and state and local jurisdictions. The Republicans have spent 50 years slowly building their power at the local and state level and it ended up working so well they were able to get Roe overturned. We have to think long term like them….and we should have started that yesterday.

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Decades ago, in fact.

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Christianity has been a conspiracy since 1506. We do not need to care about first amendment to start prosecuting a conspiracy https://www.youtube.com/shorts/851wBb47hNk

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Topic: Why did the country go to hell in the 60s?

White nativist Substackers: It was immigration reform that started letting in lots of black and brown people.

White supremacist Substackers: It was civil rights legislation that took away our freedom of association with only white people.

Christian nationalist Substackers: It was taking away mandatory rote prayers over the school intercom.

Substack thought leader: People, people! Can’t we all just get along? We can take away people’s civil rights AND make them bow the knee to White American Jesus.

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Taking prayers out ot the public schools where they should have never been in the first place was hardly the only thing that's happened since the 1960's. The idea government can be used to force religion on people is about as stupid and dangerous as thinking gets.

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I doubt they have the slightest idea how SCARED they sound to anyone who isn't them.

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Sadly, they were actually NOT able to get along and a fist fight broke out when the white supremacists accused the Christian nationalists of adhering to a slave morality and the Christian nationalists responded by lifting up some of the white supremacists’ Rome cosplaying togas.

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If the preachers ever attained the power they appear to want, they would begin killing one another over doctrinal errors within a week.

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Just like creationists who would go at each other's throats over their arrogance and how their fantasies should be made up and taught.

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oec or yec ?

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YEC

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Oc or Oui?

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The bulk of catholics are not in cahoots with the dominionists. It is only the Opus Dei types. The dominionists would like nothing better than to rid the country of the whole RCC.

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A week ? You are generous, I give them an hour.

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Whatever happened to the big boogeyman of Sharia Law that would come with Muslim immigration to the US? Never happened. But the same people who were so vocal about the dangers of theocracy have shown their true colors: they want a homegrown *Christian* theocracy forcing their beliefs down our throats ... Theocracy is just fine as long as it's their religion!

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"Whatever happened to the big boogeyman of Sharia Law that would come with Muslim immigration to the US?"

It was the Target of the Moment.

The rhetoric is always the same: X is a threat, X is multiplying, X will do bad things to your virgin daughters, X will destroy western civilization.

The X has to change every so often, of course.

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It was caravans for a while, that mysteriously disappeared just after the election. Like an Ouroborus.

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Mostly I think they're driven by the idea of having THEIR system in power, while utterly failing to recognize the similarities between Mosaic Law and Sharia.

But then, they don't deal with subtleties very well, if at all.

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IIRC, didn't Mosaic Law call for, among other things, the stoning of adulterers? And any unmarried people caught having sex?

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It did. One of the things that made me a heathen. (I actually read the bible, that also worked.)

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I know, right?

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I thought it was Shakira Law: Hips Don't Lie.

(Or maybe I'm thinking of Cole's Law: Thinly-Sliced Cabbage With A Special Sauce.)

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They’re too distracted at the moment by trans panic. They can only focus on one existential threat at a time. They’ll eventually get bored with looking for trans groomers and get back to fighting Sharia law from taking over Mayberry.

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It always was jealousy, just like with the Taliban.

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Jun 21·edited Jun 21

Next on the agenda, unwinding the 13th, 14th, & 15th Amendments. (Don't worry, Justice Three-Fifths, I'm sure they'll remember your good service to the cause and let you finish out your years as a house n.................)

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Before or after they jail his race traitor wife? Don't think for a nanosecond that she'll get off scot-free with this crowd.

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I assumed a lynching on that one.

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Same goes for ofdrumpster. What is she doing on a bench instead of serving her owner like a good trad'wife ?

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As if he isn't already?

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OT (sort of) -

We just got a mailer from Legacy Traditional Schools. Now, most of us here probably know that is code for "Christian Training Academy!" But nowhere on the mailer or their website does it say ANYTHING about Christianity. A little research shows that it was founded by a Mormon family who stated they wanted a 'leadership' academy with their values. So undoubtedly, they are teaching Christian values. Add to this that here in AZ they get public funds via our really messed up voucher program and it is a clear violation of separation. This school's biggest talking point is how much they out perform the public school system but it turns out they deny entrance to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of an ideal student. iow - kids with bad grades need not attend. Schools like this are a pox on our educational system not just because they are teaching our kids hate but because they are clearly only there to make money while sucking at the public teat.

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"The unwinding of the fundamentals of the Constitution."

Too.

Fucking.

Right.

These people are fascists plain and simple. Just because they act gently and civilized and aren't toying with an AR while speaking to you does not disqualify them from being lumped into that camp. It's literally in the presentation: "why shouldn't we continue to press our right?"

Mark my words, they are coming for it all, slow or fast, easily or violently, the rights of Citizens, yours and mine included, will be curtailed until a significant portion of the day will be rituals of Christian adulation.

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"...Just because they act gently and civilized and aren't toying with an AR while speaking to you ..."

If they're acting gently, and you can't tell they're fantasizing about an AR while they talk at you, you live in a blue state or city.

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Or you're a resident in psychiatry who hasn't bothered to look at the world (admitted not knowing much about LGBT issues, for example) and has the gall to tell someone else they're living in a bubble and their fear of a Nazi resurgence or Civil War are ridiculous (okay he didn't use those words, which is worse for a therapist. The fact that he doesn't agree with me isn't why I dropped him. The fact that he didn't hide his own personal feelings is why.)

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Or you're a resident in psychiatry who hasn't bothered to look at the world…and has the gall to tell someone else they're living in a bubble…his fears…”

You were right to drop hiim. That's terrible. I'm sorry that happened to you.

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Good, I'm glad the last thing you need is someone inept at reality.

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My rights will take some time to violate. BTW, my husbands father escaped paying child support and taxes because of an agreement between Nato/US and my country. He got work at NATO here. US sucks.

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This doesn’t look a lot like Christianity to me. It looks like a blatant power grab dressed up as religion. They may kid the hoi polloi that they are soldiers for Christ but their motives should be clear to those with eyes to see - to grab and hang onto power and if it destroys America so what? They only care about power and the money to be made from it.

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I believe you've hit the nail on the head, Ann.

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As an European, allow me to say "L"un n'empêche pas l'autre". If someone can go back in time, please don't kill hitler, go kill theodosius instead.

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Kill whoever Abraham is based on. That ancient lunatic has far more to answer for.

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Sure, then go kill whoever King Arthur is based on. Donnant-donnant.

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One of the things I really Really hate about these christofacist right wing politicians is the outright lies they spin around the history And founding of the US.

Several of the founders were Deists, not blasphemous false christians marketing their cherry picked beliefs to the masses.

God, whichever friggin “god” or sunny deity these fascists mean, was PURPOSEFULLY NOT included in the constitution, at all.

God, whichever one, was NOT in the original pledge of allegiance, nor on our currency, until the post WWII red scare began in the 1950s.

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“Nazis. I hate these guys.” -Indiana Jones

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That reminds me of the gamer bros, who were pissed that The Wolfenstein games had Nazis as the villains. They always had Nazis as the villains as they were based in WWll.

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The whole notion of a "National Association of Christian Lawmakers" would be anathema to most of the founders who fled from state-sponsored religion. And these people don't give a damn about Christians either. This is weaponized religion in order to push fascist ends.

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In a very similar vein, if you missed Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, I suggest you go watch it. We atheists aren't the only ones noticing Project 2025 and its very alarming content. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwqpx6lp_s)

I honestly wish I could claim to be surprised by this, but truthfully, I'm pretty sure this was the goal the entire time. Tinker walked in while I was reading this, and told me that this is how The Handmaid's Tale started out - women were shocked when they got fired, then shocked again when they discovered they were also penniless. It's becoming clear that the real goal is to make the United States a religious nation rather than the democracy it currently is, and when the Christian Nationalists tell us they're out to destroy the country, we should believe them.

I cannot have children any longer, but I'm terrified of what might happen come next January if Trump wins in November. If church/state separation falls, I have little doubt that various minority rights will follow very closely behind since this SCOTUS appears more than happy to force its religious views on the nation. I've heard people say things like 'not in America' for years, but the truth is bad things can and have happened in America and no amount of denial will change that. The alarms are ringing and it's time to wake up.

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Jun 21·edited Jun 21

Yep, they want to turn the US into the kristian version of Afghanistan.

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FULL of sectarian violence over which god is THE ONE TRUE GOD. TM

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The NatC death cult wants a chimera of N Korea and Afghanistan. Then they burn the world to jump start that end of days these enemies of humanity have always lusted for.

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To be honest, I am just as surprised and terrified as you are.

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You need a VPN outside of the US I think. I may have posted a pirated copy of that yesterday – not the best quality sound but.

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"Several decades ago, and long before that, Christianity was the only game in town when it came to religion. There are many reasons for that, including a lack of diversity as well as scientific ignorance."

The diversity was there, and scientific ignorance doesn't account for it either, the reason Christianity was the only game in town was because it was a bully, it had people in the right positions to allow folks to discriminate and misrepresent who the diverse people were and what diversity meant as a whole. It wasn't simple ignorance of how the world works, or a lack of access to others. It was a concerted effort to keep the masses ignorant and to vilify others. Progressives have made great strides in the past 50 years to fight the cruelty of Christian nationalists, and these Christian Nationalists are lashing out over losing their grip.

It is precisely the problem of the apathetic voter and overzealous progressives. Baby steps are always better than baby tantrums. I've said it before, vote blue or die from the red.

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Did some religious nuts come to the colonies because they didn't like the religion of the King? Yes, they did but even they recognized that in order to ensure that they were not persecuted by government they needed to keep government out of religion. Stick that in you 'historical precedent'.

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The pilgrims were so fanatical, that even the tolerant Dutch told them to leave!

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“You just got to get the cases up there."

Translation, everyone go around infringing all day.

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Remember, Jesus was a member of the National Rifle Association, packed AR-15s in both hands, and told His followers to blow away anyone who was not an Evangelical Christian.

At least, that's how it appeared in the Bible, right off the original typewriter....

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They're just a little more open about worshipping death.

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AR 15's? Are they an offshoot of the church of the M 14?

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If you only have a handgun, are you excommunicated? Son of Moonie just as whacked as dad.

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Don't forget his velociraptor mount...

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How proud he must be.

Tomorrow he’ll be getting thank-you e-mails, letters, and donations from every domestic abuser in the nation.

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Sorry, I should have used the sarcasm tag. Also, as Zorg points out, Jebus rides a tyrannosaurus, not a velociraptor. My bad.

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Velociraptors are pretty tough, too.

I like the image.

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Except velociraptors were about the size of a turkey AFAIK. That there series of movies has got a lot to answer for.

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Stephen Jay Gould said the biggest was how they were actually able to clone dinosaurs. He wrote an essay in the book “Past Imperfect,” on how films treat history, which says, in short, it can’t be done.

Personally, I think if they are going to clone animals, they should clone the ones wiped out by humans, not that gigantic asteroid. Like Jeff Goldblum says, dinosaurs had their shot.

I’d rather we have Dodos and Passenger Pigeons in zoos and nature preserves than velociraptors.

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It also showed compys about the size of a sparrow. They still killed a man or two by swarming them.

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