310 Comments
User's avatar
Joe King's avatar

Sent to the Mayor:

Mayor Koch:

Although you may think that installing large statues of religious icons at the public safety building is acceptable, it is a violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Last I checked, Quincy is a city in Massachusetts, one of those United States. Your claim that the statues "transcend religion" is false. You have publicly stated that St Michael is a figure in all three Abrahamic faiths, as though that makes it ok. It does not. Not everyone in your city is Christian. Not everyone there is Jewish. Not everyone there is Muslim. There are citizens of Quincy who practice faiths outside of those three, and there are citizens of no fatih at all.

Perhaps you would understand how egregious this constitutional violation is if The Satanic Temple brought their Baphomet statue to join these. Their headquarters is not very far from you, shall I contact them on your behalf?

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Chiche.

Expand full comment
Lynn Veit's avatar

Oh, do it! Mayor Koch needs something eye-opening, and I am afraid logic and reasoned arguments will not be efficacious here. Koch is far too blinded by his unthinking faith. Only Baphomet can shock him out of his comfortable faith-trance long enough to consider his actions from another POV.

Expand full comment
John Roberts's avatar

Put "In Baphomet We Trust" next to In "God We Trust" on all United States currency.

Embarrassing and pure entertainment.

Religion, George Carlin was right!

Thanks

Expand full comment
NOGODZ20's avatar

Sue Quincy and Koch into into penury for their attempts to piss on church-state separation.

Quincy's the home of Dunkin', right? May this lawsuit be a slam dunk.

Expand full comment
Maltnothops's avatar

Yet again, it is time for people like Koch to be PERSONALLY liable for their BS when they pretty obviously knew that what they were doing is illegal.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

If these idiots were hit in their own wallets, the tune they'd be singing would be WAY DIFFERENT!

Expand full comment
Bensnewlogin's avatar

It’s very funny about this.

I asked Siri “what are the origins of the word ‘religion’”? This is what Siri had to say. (I knew he would. He’s a cute Irish boy and we are always in agreement). “ The word 'religion' originates from the Latin 'religio' and 'religare', suggesting a binding respect for the sacred. It has evolved to describe belief systems and practices that are deeply intertwined with culture, reflecting shared values and communal experiences.

So religion is a word that refers to the ties that bind people together. And yet, more and more, religion seems to be something that divides people from each other. It’s not enough for you to have your religion, but I must have it too. It’s not enough that you get tax breaks for your religion, but I must support them While you are insisting that I must share your religion with you.

It’s only 6:30, and I’m already annoyed.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

It's the same with église (church), the original word "Ecclesia" meant an assembly of people, it was not specifically religious.

Expand full comment
Stephen Brady's avatar

I still remember the dialogue in high school French where the word 'église' was introduced:

"Ah, Monsieur - Y a-t-il un hotel près d'ici. Oui, mademoiselle , il y'a en face de l'église." Forgive me if I got the accents wrong - it has been 57 years.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

The accents are the correct ones and at the right place 👍

"Y a-t-il" is currently spelled "y'a t'il" (don't fret, it's part of the normal evolution of a language).

You made only one minor mistake. You should have write "il y'en a un".

Expand full comment
Stephen Brady's avatar

I memorized all those dialogues and never had occasion to use them. At least, I can still read a little of it.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Feel free to hit me.

Expand full comment
Stephen Brady's avatar

Heavens, no! I appreciate all the bons mots English absconded from French with.

Expand full comment
Stephen Brady's avatar

Religion is always seeking to advance the in-group over the out-group. If you don't religiously hold your butt just right, then you are a bad person and need to be excluded. And, you're gonna go to Hell, too! (no proof that anyone ever goes to Hell is ever offered.)

Expand full comment
Bensnewlogin's avatar

Just remember, God so loved the world that he threatened to burn you in hell forever if you don’t love him back

Expand full comment
Larry Desmond's avatar

But not just excluded, but those who aren't part of the religious) are expected to financially support religion, usually christian in the U.S. Koch and those like him in positions of power are nothing more than criminals. malfeasance /malˈfiːzns/

noun Law wrongdoing, especially (US) by a public official.

Expand full comment
dammit barry's avatar

Sacred wants me dead. Screw sacred.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Sacred also wants to think of itself as being above reproach. It isn't.

Expand full comment
RegularJoe's avatar

Besides, profane is far more fun & interesting.

Expand full comment
Vanity Unfair's avatar

Possibly, but the OED has another derivation:

(ii) classical Latin religiōn-, religiō supernatural feeling of constraint, usually having the force of a prohibition or impediment, that which is prohibited, taboo, positive obligation, rule, impediment to action proceeding from religious awe or conscience, scruple, manifestation of divine sanction, religious fear, awe, religious feeling, superstition, quality evoking awe or reverence, sanctity, religious observance, religious practice, ritual, particular system of religious observance, cult, conscientiousness, in post-classical Latin also monastic community (8th cent.), religious order, rule observed by a religious order (12th cent.) < re- re- prefix + a second element of uncertain origin; by Cicero connected with relegere to read over again (see relection n.), so that the supposed original sense of ‘religion’ would have been ‘painstaking observance of rites’, but by later authors (especially by early Christian writers) with religāre religate v., ‘religion’ being taken as ‘that which ties believers to God’. Each view finds supporters among modern scholars.

Oxford English Dictionary, “religion (n.), Etymology,” December 2024, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/4617717718.

I prefer Cicero's derivation but the position is uncertain. It just seems more likely, or is that just me? Anyway, Siri v. OED: no contest.

"the supposed original sense of ‘religion’ would have been ‘painstaking observance of rites’"

Expand full comment
Bensnewlogin's avatar

Mine’s easier.😜😜😜😜😜😜

Expand full comment
avis piscivorus's avatar

"Koch, a devout Catholic, pointed out that St. Michael is a figure common to Christianity, Islam and Judaism."

And all three religions he talks about are based on books that explicitely forbids to make images of such a figure.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

And that figure is completely UNCOMMON to those of us who espouse no belief in a deity. Ol' Tommy never thought of that.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

You are too kind. From his comments, it's clear he knows and doesn't care.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

If that is in fact the case, then the ACLU and the FFRF will have no problem in rubbing his sorry nose in it!

Expand full comment
Old Man Shadow's avatar

There are some beautiful pieces of religiously themed art that have been crafted over the years. Buddhist, Islamic, Christian, Hindu, etc.

They do not belong at a police station.

They police should view themselves with humility. They are not agents of God or the divine. They are fallible men. They should act with great thought.

Let there be a general room to meditate or pray silently if need be. That allows for reflection without exclusion or pride.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

"They should act with great thought."

Whew! Now THERE's a big ask!

Expand full comment
Joe King's avatar

It's a big ask to request that they act with any thought.

Expand full comment
Walt Svirsky's avatar

“They should act with great thought.”

And the smell of tires burning will be shared throughout the community.

Expand full comment
John Smith's avatar

I can hear the two remaining brain cells in the mayor/city council slamming each other trying to decide which one of them dies next.

Expand full comment
ericc's avatar

Blech I'd prefer Minton's 'The Runaway' statue over an unused meditation room.

But that's not for me to say. Both alternatives - and neither - should ultimately be up for counselors to vote on in open session, after the costs have been made publicly available.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Mayor Koch? When the First Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion," that INCLUDES STATUARY! On top of which, you're spending close to a million dollars on what amounts to DECORATION. That same money could go to equipping and/or training your officers, or simply funding their salaries for a goodly period. You seem to think that it's not a problem, but then, you are thinking as a Catholic.

You SHOULD be thinking as a secular governmental official who needs to be able to serve ALL the citizens of Quincy, regardless of belief or lack thereof, EQUALLY. Do us all a favor and give that some serious thought!

Expand full comment
Vanity Unfair's avatar

"You continue to revise," Koch said. "The bottom line doesn't change."

Does that mean that you have taken $850,000 out of the building costs? How? What have you junked?

Expand full comment
avis piscivorus's avatar

Just replacing some structural integrity parts with much cheaper duct tape in places where nobody will detect it, can save up to $850,000.

Expand full comment
Joan the Dork's avatar

A perfectly cromulent word, which I shall file away beside "indignorant" for its utility in describing wingnut assholes.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Indignorant works in French too.

Expand full comment
Joan the Dork's avatar

Pretty sure we stole both of those words from you, anyway, based on the spelling. XD

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

N'en déplaise aux puristes* who have no idea how a language works, our respective languages borrowed** from each and from Latin since the early Middle-Ages. English borrowed "G" from French alphabet, and we borrowed your "w".

* Quebecois and academiciens.

** Among others languages, such as Chinese and Arab.

Expand full comment
dammit barry's avatar

syn. KKKrister.

Expand full comment
wreck's avatar

Councilman Asshole:

"This was someone trying to embarrass us, which I don't appreciate. The council should not be put in a position, whether by the mayor's office or by anyone who wanted to subvert this, where we appear uninformed."

Were you uninformed or are hiding the fact that you knew about the illegal statues? Either way, you should be embarrassed.

Also, very tRumpian.

Expand full comment
ericc's avatar

The most damning part of Cain's quote was the bit you missed: "This wasn't meant to open up a discussion with the people who work in government"

Mr. Cain, the leak was *absolutely* meant to open up a discussion (of the public) with the people who work in government.

And it is shameful that one (likely more) of the city's councilmembers see this as a bad thing.

Expand full comment
Walt Svirsky's avatar

This douchebag doesn’t need any help embarrassing himself.

Expand full comment
Kay-El's avatar

St. Michael stepping on a neck reminds me of some terrible incident in the not too distant past……I’m sure I’m not the only one. Who would feel comfortable going to a police station with that reminder? 🤔

Religious statues belong in a church or a museum. I’ve enjoyed viewing some religious artifacts in my travels but I don’t want them in my government buildings. It’s creepy and unwelcoming.

Expand full comment
Joan the Dork's avatar

"𝘐𝘧 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘸𝘢𝘯𝘵 𝘢 𝘱𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘧𝘶𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘦, 𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘨𝘪𝘯𝘦 𝘢 𝘣𝘰𝘰𝘵 𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘮𝘱𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘯 𝘢 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘧𝘢𝘤𝘦— 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳." - George Orwell, 1984.

The wielder of the boot is never on the right side.

...well, unless the boot-er and the boot-ee are engaging in a bit of consensual BDSM play, but in all 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 circumstances, the boot-er is the bad guy.

Expand full comment
ericc's avatar
2dEdited

The *point* is to make suspects and the accused uncomfortable. At least, my guess is that's part of it. Thin blue line = angel and any joe public they go after can look forward to the devil treatment.

Expand full comment
dammit barry's avatar

Sticks and stones ay break my bones. Imaginary beings cannot harm me.

Expand full comment
Kay-El's avatar

Yes, part of it, but what about those reporting a crime? One look at that monstrosity and would someone possibly reconsider?

Expand full comment
Joan the Dork's avatar

I believe I raised this question the last time we had an article about this misbegotten statuary, but... if there is some pressing need for statues to be built (a thing of which I remain thoroughly unconvinced), surely there must be first responders who've lost their lives in the line of duty, or who during their careers did some heroic deeds, who could be given that honor instead of characters from one particular Christian sect's mythology? Surely honoring public servants with ties to the community, who've done good for the community, makes more sense than venerating the idols of a religion founded a third of the way around the world, and centuries before Quincy, Massachusetts was so much as the inkling of a notion in its founder's hindbrain?

Expand full comment
ericc's avatar
2dEdited

Don't you understand? If the city credits firefighters for firefighting and policemen for community service policing, the nones win!

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Honor those who served ... damned straight!

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

You don't understand, worshipping real people is idolatry and strictly forbidden.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Ummm ... Donnie Dumb-Ass would like a word. Problem is, he's still trying to think of the word. But it's okay.

Give him time. He'll think of it ... eventually!

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

When he will have the concept of a plan ?

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Ohhhh ... right around then ... plus or minus a bit.

Expand full comment
dammit barry's avatar

It was the concept of an idea of a dream of a plan. The donuhld's brain never goes much beyond that.

Expand full comment
NOGODZ20's avatar

Unless you’re Juche. Worship of gods is transferred to worship of the state leader.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I think TS and you missed the implied sarcasm. Saints are, allegedly, real persons.

Expand full comment
NOGODZ20's avatar

Oh no, I got the snark. Was just saying. :)

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Oh, I got it, too. Problem is that Donnie WOULDN'T ... though maybe if you tried REAL HARD. 😝

Expand full comment
Bensnewlogin's avatar

I almost forgot.

The depiction of Saint Florian above has a millstone in it, complete with a rope, probably suitable for tying around someone’s neck.

Now, it wasn’t it someone who is no longer important to modern Christianity that said something about millstones, necks, and oceans? It seems that this might apply very strongly to a good portion of the catholic priesthood.

Irony is not all that distant from real life.

Expand full comment
dammit barry's avatar

The church spends a lot of money and time creating priests. They are not friendly to the idea of them sitting in prison, not making beaucoup bucks for mother church.

Expand full comment
Bensnewlogin's avatar

Of course.

Expand full comment
larry parker's avatar

Statue violates statute.

Expand full comment
NOGODZ20's avatar

Statue has no legal stature.

Expand full comment
wreck's avatar

"It seemed natural to do those images," he (da mayor) added.

You know what else is natural? Taking a huge steaming shit. Rather like you're proposing.

Expand full comment
Joe King's avatar

From Wikipedia: 𝐾𝑜𝑐ℎ ℎ𝑎𝑠 𝑗𝑢𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑓𝑖𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑢𝑒𝑠 𝑏𝑦 𝑠𝑎𝑦𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 “𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑛𝑠𝑐𝑒𝑛𝑑 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑑 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑎 𝑑𝑒𝑒𝑝, 𝑙𝑜𝑛𝑔-ℎ𝑒𝑙𝑑 𝑠𝑦𝑚𝑏𝑜𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝑚𝑒𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑜𝑓 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑡𝑒𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑓𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠. 𝑇ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑠 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚.”

This is about first responders? Really? If he really wanted to protect the first responders he would have increased funding for body armor, bodycams, and firefightng equipment, as well as upgrading ambulances. Transcend religion? Only in the 12th century when Catholicism was mandatory.

Expand full comment
Troublesh00ter's avatar

Koch's first responders are all Catholic? That's one hell of an assumption, Tommy. You sure there are no Baptists or Methodists or Congregationalists in there. A Jew or an atheist, maybe? Whether there are or not, your publicly funded place of work is NO PLACE for your own expression of belief. I've said this before:

𝑊ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑦𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝐵𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑟 𝑄𝑢𝑟𝑎𝑛 𝑜𝑟 𝐵ℎ𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑣𝑎𝑑 𝐺𝑖𝑡𝑎 𝑜𝑟 𝐵𝑜𝑜𝑘 𝑜𝑓 𝑀𝑜𝑟𝑚𝑜𝑛 𝑠𝑎𝑦𝑠 𝐻𝐴𝑆 𝑁𝑂 𝑃𝐿𝐴𝐶𝐸 ... 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑏𝑒 𝑑𝑒𝑎𝑙𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜𝑠𝑒 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓𝑠 𝑚𝑎𝑦 𝑑𝑖𝑓𝑓𝑒𝑟 𝑓𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑦𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑠 𝑜𝑟 𝑚𝑎𝑦 ℎ𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑛𝑜 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑓 𝑖𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑔𝑜𝑑 𝑎𝑡 𝑎𝑙𝑙. 𝐵𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑠𝑒, 𝑖𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑢𝑚𝑏𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑢𝑝𝑜𝑛 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑡𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑎𝑖𝑛 𝑁𝐸𝑈𝑇𝑅𝐴𝐿.

-- me

Expand full comment
ericc's avatar
2dEdited

Pretty sure even Catholic citizens would find the Michael statue oppressive, negative, and authoritarian, if they are accused of a crime and being marched through the building on their way to an interview or proceeding. It screams "This is what's coming to you." Should be obvious to anyone being brought through in handcuffs that if the state sees the officer behind them as the angel, then the state sees them as the devil.

Which is probably the point of the statue: to intimidate. To get the accused to comply rather than fight for their rights, by giving them a visual representation of what will symbolically be done to them if they resist. Conservativism is far more interested in punishment over protect and serve. But Koch won't say that bit out loud.

I honestly *like* the statue as a piece of art, in a church. I've seen several variants in cathedrals which I thought were really cool as religious art. It's simply that it doesn't belong in a US public building because of the message it sends about church/state...and it *especially* sends a bad message in a police facility.

Expand full comment
NOGODZ20's avatar

Earlier than that. Catholicsm (Nicene Christianty) was made the state religion of Rome by Theodosius I in 380 CE. If you were any other type of Christian at that time, you were up shit creek in the eyes of the law. Your rights were forfeited and your property seized.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

When you weren't at war with the rest of the christianised Europe, like Wisigothic Spain was.

Expand full comment
John Smith's avatar

I am sorry to nitpick, but it was Visigoth Spain. The Gauls were converted to Arianism Christianity. That version of Christianity was declared heretical by the church.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

You are right. I wrote it in Franglais. We spell it "Wisigoth" and "Wisigothique".

Expand full comment
Walt Svirsky's avatar

More horseshit spewing from the mouf’ of a self serving lunatic.

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

christainity transcend religion from all the traditions it "borrowed" from older faiths.

Expand full comment
Joe King's avatar

𝑇ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑟𝑒𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑐𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑠 “𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑝𝑟𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑐𝑒 𝑎 𝑣𝑎𝑟𝑖𝑒𝑡𝑦 𝑜𝑓 𝑓𝑎𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑠, 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝐶𝑎𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑖𝑠𝑚...

You know you fucked up when Catholics are suing to stop the Catholic statues.

Expand full comment
Linda Bower's avatar

👏

Expand full comment
larry parker's avatar

Guess who's rigged elections for decades?

Expand full comment
Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Biden's basement in Hillary's Clinton's laptop ?

Expand full comment
Lynn Veit's avatar

That's why they're not worried about Joni's big fuck-up. They have the midterms in the bag.

Expand full comment