Forced patriotism is fake patriotism. A true patriot is a person willing to stand up and say that their country is wrong and TRY TO MAKE THEIR COUNTRY BETTER!
I am a US army veteran and I feel more disrespected by people who want to take away the hard fought freedoms we have/had. The true patriots will be out on the streets today protesting the toddler-king and his followers.
It shouldn't have taken a year of litigation and a settlement agreement for the Superintendent to have done this.
Ms Khalaf has had the right to sit during the pledge since 𝘞𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘝𝘪𝘳𝘨𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘢 𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘉𝘰𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘌𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘷. 𝘉𝘢𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘦 in 1943. Seven decades before she was born. One would think a public school teacher wouls be aware of such a historical decision.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
Anyone else listen to Skeptics Guide to the Universe? One of the hosts is having a problem with his daughter's science teacher. The teacher denied we landed on the moon and the host has been going after the school to do something. The school got the teacher to admit he was wrong and that was it. The host wanted more and the school is dragging its feet. The host thinks the school is intentionally delaying things until the school year is over and she's no longer has that teacher.
Schools need to do a better job with their teachers when they behave badly. I know there's a shortage but still...
Granted that it was a fictional scenario, but that scene in Interstellar when the teacher was trying to justify not teaching the Apollo moon landings positively had me LIVID. THAT SHIT HAPPENED, lady, and denying it because the world circumstances have changed doesn't change the fact that you are LYING TO KIDS.
Bullying is bad enough. Being bullied by a TEACHER should be a felony. But being bullied into what is alleged to be PATRIOTISM? That is beyond the pale in ways I'm not sure I can fully elucidate. I'm going to say it again:
FORCED PATRIOTISM IS NOT PATRIOTISM!!!
Danielle had every right to remain seated during the Pledge, and Ms. Soranno was completely OUT OF LINE in accosting her IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CLASS. I am mightily pleased that Ms. Khalaf won her suit, though I wonder if Soranno learned anything from this incident. Her repeated confrontations with Danielle suggest that she may not have.
And frankly, I think she needs to refresh her resume.
"...if you don't like it, you should go back to your country."
Did you forget how this country was founded, Serrano? Does genocide and stolen land ring a bell? Unless you are an indiginous person, you are hardly one to lecture anyone about who and who does not belong here.
Anyone willing to bet that this teacher is a Christian fascist and a die hard Trump supporter (I realize that is redundant)?
Perhaps the authorities should check the teacher computer browser, considering how many Trump supporters have skeletons in their closets, and how many we have seen getting arrested for crimes against children!
“Since you live in this country and enjoy its freedom, if you don’t like it, you should go back to your country.”
This teacher talks about the freedoms of this country while denying a young girl her freedom not to repeat the pledge. I do not think that teacher begins comprehend the irony there.
Repeat anything enough times and it tends to become meaningless. Why would you ever need to pledge allegiance more than once? No one intent on doing this country harm would hesitate to say the pledge. This country talks a good game of freedom, but woe be unto whomever stands up for their rights.
I don’t say the pledge, and I haven’t said it in many many years. I don’t say it for precisely the reasons that hemant mentions. As a gay man, I could seethat liberty and justice for gay people was only going to happen over a great many unresurrected Christian bodies, and that it would always be tentative…
… until the next religious demagogue needed a scapegoat.
What I will do is stand out of respect to the people around me. That’s just a courtesy. I won’t say the pledge, I won’t put my hand over my heart, and I will not lie.
I also object to pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth. It’s a symbol of something else, of course, but I am not a symbol junkie. I’m not addicted to them. I don’t mistake them for what they represent. And right now, what the flag represents is the most corrupt, immoral, incompetent, anti human, pro billionaire, dominionist administration in our history.
Yes, she is incredibly brave. Most of us remember how vicious teenagers can be to someone who does not conform, or whose values are different, or whom they see as "other" because reasons.
I'm sure her dedication to her beliefs has cost her dearly in that respect, so I am very impressed by her willingness to fight for her rights.
The powers-that-be are trying to have it both ways here - you have the right to refuse participation, but they also want to encourage participation. This invariably leads to petty tyrants like Sorranno abusing the rights of students by forcing participation in “voluntary” rituals.
If those asshats really want participation and patriotism, they can start teaching civics again, with a particular focus on the Constitution, how it came to be, and just WHY it is the important and unique document that it is.
I can't escape the feeling that such an idea wouldn't go over well, though. Why is that?
Because those in charge don't want the next generation of American citizens learning all those things. Why, they might start thinking they actually have rights!
Yes, but... if they taught civics and US history to the degree of thoroughness those subjects deserve, there wouldn't be a student in the classroom willing to tolerate the flag-worshiping nationalism, and that would just defeat the whole point of indoctrination!
Might want to look up West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. (1943). NO ONE is required to salute the flag or stand for/recite your useless loyalty oath.
She shouldn't be a teacher at all. She doesn't seem temperamentally suited to handle anything but blind obedience from her students, even over something as insignificant as reciting flag words.
The schools should, but then I expect the goddamm right wing jesusfuckers to issue death threats till the pledge is reinstated. I notice that jesusfuckers will quickly resort to violence when they don’t get their way. So we (non MAGAS) must continue to pushback against the Christian fascist boneheads!
We have plenty of stories here at FA about exactly that. School boards or town halls or what have you voted for to spend the time on business removing the pledge (or prayers that absolutely do not belong) and the next meeting they’re back on the agenda because the members of the board received death threats.
I don’t disagree but ……. That creates an opening for the knuckledraggers to run for school boards on this “vital” issue. Like the trans books “panic” of the last few years gave us the Moms for Liberty types.
One of my best friends is a high school teacher. The pledge is done schoolwide on the video screens during morning announcements. I asked how many students say the pledge. “Zero. Ask me how many stand up. Zero.”
I put this — mostly — in the “let sleeping dogs lie” category. The kids already regard the pledge as useless and stupid. That’s a win for us.
It's nothing but performance art. We are groomed to accept it from an early age. It's all the right has going for it. If you refuse, you are 'othered' and treated with disdain. It's all part of the gaslighting of the American people, while the wealthy continue to commit atrocities. Good on Danielle. Thank goodness we have the ACLU to force these things into the spotlight and to take these things into court so there is a record, and the victim gets some compensation.
Daily nationalistic loyalty pledges have 𝘯𝘰 legitimate place in any free society, nor in any society which puts on airs of being such. It is a display of such deep and profound insecurity that anyone clinging to it as a symbol of their love of country cannot be rightly called a patriot. Patriotism is not a thing of traditions and symbols, but of conscience and introspection. A flag-waving Pledge-reciter who flies off the handle at the thought of someone declining to participate in their little ritual loves their country in the same shallow way as a sports fan who starts a fight with fans of the other team because theirs didn't win the big game- they do not care to make their team better, only that they believe it should win, at all times and in all things, simply because it is theirs.
Like I said before a true patriot is willing to STAND UP and tell their country that it is WRONG and try to make their country BETTER for ALL it’s citizens!🤨
GOOD!
I detest bullies. They must be fought. Always.
Forced patriotism is fake patriotism. A true patriot is a person willing to stand up and say that their country is wrong and TRY TO MAKE THEIR COUNTRY BETTER!
Repeating the Pedge every day is more about enforcing rote conformity than anything else.
It is also a form of indoctrination, which should be nowhere near a classroom!
ESPECIALLY bullies in a position of power. That teacher stepped WAY over the line and should have been immediately fired.
I am a US army veteran and I feel more disrespected by people who want to take away the hard fought freedoms we have/had. The true patriots will be out on the streets today protesting the toddler-king and his followers.
"I may not agree with your opinion but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" should be the Army Creed.
Hear hear!
You and me both. Vietnam, 68-69.
𝑆𝑢𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑀𝑜𝑛𝑖𝑐𝑎 𝑀𝑒𝑟𝑟𝑖𝑡𝑡 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑙𝑦 𝑝𝑟𝑎𝑖𝑠𝑒𝑑 𝐷𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑒 𝑓𝑜𝑟 “𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑤𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑎𝑔𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑎𝑘𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑢𝑝 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡.”
It shouldn't have taken a year of litigation and a settlement agreement for the Superintendent to have done this.
Ms Khalaf has had the right to sit during the pledge since 𝘞𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘝𝘪𝘳𝘨𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘢 𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘉𝘰𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘌𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘷. 𝘉𝘢𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘦 in 1943. Seven decades before she was born. One would think a public school teacher wouls be aware of such a historical decision.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
-- Justice Jackson.
And the preceding words of the majority opinion, IMO even more powerful:
"𝘛𝘰 𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘷𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵𝘪𝘴𝘮 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘧𝘭𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘩 𝘪𝘧 𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵𝘪𝘤 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘮𝘰𝘯𝘪𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘷𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘳𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘦𝘰𝘶𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘢𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘱𝘶𝘭𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘺 𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘢𝘯 𝘶𝘯𝘧𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘦𝘢𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘪𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘵𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘴. 𝘞𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭 𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘪𝘥𝘶𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘴𝘮 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘩 𝘤𝘶𝘭𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘦𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘸𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘦𝘹𝘤𝘦𝘱𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘴 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘰𝘤𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘦𝘤𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘢𝘣𝘯𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘵𝘶𝘥𝘦𝘴. 𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘰 𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘮𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘥𝘦𝘢𝘭 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦, 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘵𝘰𝘰 𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘵. 𝘉𝘶𝘵 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘪𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘥𝘰 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘮𝘶𝘤𝘩. 𝘛𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 𝘣𝘦 𝘢 𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘩𝘢𝘥𝘰𝘸 𝘰𝘧 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥𝘰𝘮. 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘵𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘪𝘵𝘴 𝘴𝘶𝘣𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘪𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘰𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘦𝘹𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘳𝘥𝘦𝘳."
Anyone else listen to Skeptics Guide to the Universe? One of the hosts is having a problem with his daughter's science teacher. The teacher denied we landed on the moon and the host has been going after the school to do something. The school got the teacher to admit he was wrong and that was it. The host wanted more and the school is dragging its feet. The host thinks the school is intentionally delaying things until the school year is over and she's no longer has that teacher.
Schools need to do a better job with their teachers when they behave badly. I know there's a shortage but still...
Granted that it was a fictional scenario, but that scene in Interstellar when the teacher was trying to justify not teaching the Apollo moon landings positively had me LIVID. THAT SHIT HAPPENED, lady, and denying it because the world circumstances have changed doesn't change the fact that you are LYING TO KIDS.
And you don't deserve to be a teacher.
Bullying is bad enough. Being bullied by a TEACHER should be a felony. But being bullied into what is alleged to be PATRIOTISM? That is beyond the pale in ways I'm not sure I can fully elucidate. I'm going to say it again:
FORCED PATRIOTISM IS NOT PATRIOTISM!!!
Danielle had every right to remain seated during the Pledge, and Ms. Soranno was completely OUT OF LINE in accosting her IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CLASS. I am mightily pleased that Ms. Khalaf won her suit, though I wonder if Soranno learned anything from this incident. Her repeated confrontations with Danielle suggest that she may not have.
And frankly, I think she needs to refresh her resume.
If justice prevails, she should be terminated and have her credentials revoked so she is unable to ever teach again.
ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY!!!
Foced patriotism is nationalism, plain and simple.
And we see what nationalism has done.
Nationalism and jingoism.
Most teachers genuinely want to teach. This one just wants to CONTROL.
Anyone belittling a student, for any reason, shouldn’t be teaching! End of.
What. You. Said!
"...if you don't like it, you should go back to your country."
Did you forget how this country was founded, Serrano? Does genocide and stolen land ring a bell? Unless you are an indiginous person, you are hardly one to lecture anyone about who and who does not belong here.
Anyone willing to bet that this teacher is a Christian fascist and a die hard Trump supporter (I realize that is redundant)?
Perhaps the authorities should check the teacher computer browser, considering how many Trump supporters have skeletons in their closets, and how many we have seen getting arrested for crimes against children!
“Since you live in this country and enjoy its freedom, if you don’t like it, you should go back to your country.”
This teacher talks about the freedoms of this country while denying a young girl her freedom not to repeat the pledge. I do not think that teacher begins comprehend the irony there.
Repeat anything enough times and it tends to become meaningless. Why would you ever need to pledge allegiance more than once? No one intent on doing this country harm would hesitate to say the pledge. This country talks a good game of freedom, but woe be unto whomever stands up for their rights.
That teacher was a bigot, pure and simple. A student who is brown did not conform to the teacher's ideology, so was bullied by the bigot.
Irony is lost on the Christian fascist assholes! In fact, reality is lost on the Christian fascist fuckwits!
“Go back to where you came from” is the oldest form of racism, isn’t it?
If everyone did that, we’d all be inbred…just a thought…
A good reply: "Unless your bigoted ass was born in this classroom, take your own advice."
I don’t say the pledge, and I haven’t said it in many many years. I don’t say it for precisely the reasons that hemant mentions. As a gay man, I could seethat liberty and justice for gay people was only going to happen over a great many unresurrected Christian bodies, and that it would always be tentative…
… until the next religious demagogue needed a scapegoat.
What I will do is stand out of respect to the people around me. That’s just a courtesy. I won’t say the pledge, I won’t put my hand over my heart, and I will not lie.
I also object to pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth. It’s a symbol of something else, of course, but I am not a symbol junkie. I’m not addicted to them. I don’t mistake them for what they represent. And right now, what the flag represents is the most corrupt, immoral, incompetent, anti human, pro billionaire, dominionist administration in our history.
So good on this young woman.
Yes, she is incredibly brave. Most of us remember how vicious teenagers can be to someone who does not conform, or whose values are different, or whom they see as "other" because reasons.
I'm sure her dedication to her beliefs has cost her dearly in that respect, so I am very impressed by her willingness to fight for her rights.
The powers-that-be are trying to have it both ways here - you have the right to refuse participation, but they also want to encourage participation. This invariably leads to petty tyrants like Sorranno abusing the rights of students by forcing participation in “voluntary” rituals.
If those asshats really want participation and patriotism, they can start teaching civics again, with a particular focus on the Constitution, how it came to be, and just WHY it is the important and unique document that it is.
I can't escape the feeling that such an idea wouldn't go over well, though. Why is that?
Because those in charge don't want the next generation of American citizens learning all those things. Why, they might start thinking they actually have rights!
Spot on, the jesusfuckers don’t want those they hate to know their RIGHTS and STAND UP for them!
Yes, but... if they taught civics and US history to the degree of thoroughness those subjects deserve, there wouldn't be a student in the classroom willing to tolerate the flag-worshiping nationalism, and that would just defeat the whole point of indoctrination!
Oh, DARN! 🤣🤣🤣
The utter lack of self-awareness to be talking about freedom while denying it to another is appalling.
Hey, Serrano...
Might want to look up West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. (1943). NO ONE is required to salute the flag or stand for/recite your useless loyalty oath.
Hope she wasn't a history teacher, because she clearly doesn't know HERS!
She shouldn't be a teacher at all. She doesn't seem temperamentally suited to handle anything but blind obedience from her students, even over something as insignificant as reciting flag words.
VERY proud of Danielle for knowing and being willing to stand up for her rights! Well done!
To avoid all this useless drama, why don't schools just stop reciting that idiot pledge?
They got rid of the Bellamy Salute accompanying that pledge in December of 1942. Long past time for this relic to join it.
The schools should, but then I expect the goddamm right wing jesusfuckers to issue death threats till the pledge is reinstated. I notice that jesusfuckers will quickly resort to violence when they don’t get their way. So we (non MAGAS) must continue to pushback against the Christian fascist boneheads!
For those who claim to follow the "Prince of Peace," they make sure they keep those swords handy.
LOL,you made a funny! 🤣
CHRISTIANITY NEVER SPREAD DUE TO IT’S MESSAGE, BUT BY THE SHARPNESS OF IT’S SWORDS!
We have plenty of stories here at FA about exactly that. School boards or town halls or what have you voted for to spend the time on business removing the pledge (or prayers that absolutely do not belong) and the next meeting they’re back on the agenda because the members of the board received death threats.
Yes, and that is why I mentioned it. Christian love = hate!
I don’t disagree but ……. That creates an opening for the knuckledraggers to run for school boards on this “vital” issue. Like the trans books “panic” of the last few years gave us the Moms for Liberty types.
One of my best friends is a high school teacher. The pledge is done schoolwide on the video screens during morning announcements. I asked how many students say the pledge. “Zero. Ask me how many stand up. Zero.”
I put this — mostly — in the “let sleeping dogs lie” category. The kids already regard the pledge as useless and stupid. That’s a win for us.
I hereby pledge to never again be swayed by or coerced into any empty pledges. ✊️
It's nothing but performance art. We are groomed to accept it from an early age. It's all the right has going for it. If you refuse, you are 'othered' and treated with disdain. It's all part of the gaslighting of the American people, while the wealthy continue to commit atrocities. Good on Danielle. Thank goodness we have the ACLU to force these things into the spotlight and to take these things into court so there is a record, and the victim gets some compensation.
Daily nationalistic loyalty pledges have 𝘯𝘰 legitimate place in any free society, nor in any society which puts on airs of being such. It is a display of such deep and profound insecurity that anyone clinging to it as a symbol of their love of country cannot be rightly called a patriot. Patriotism is not a thing of traditions and symbols, but of conscience and introspection. A flag-waving Pledge-reciter who flies off the handle at the thought of someone declining to participate in their little ritual loves their country in the same shallow way as a sports fan who starts a fight with fans of the other team because theirs didn't win the big game- they do not care to make their team better, only that they believe it should win, at all times and in all things, simply because it is theirs.
Like I said before a true patriot is willing to STAND UP and tell their country that it is WRONG and try to make their country BETTER for ALL it’s citizens!🤨