Forced patriotism is fake patriotism. A true patriot is a person willing to stand up and say that their country is wrong and TRY TO MAKE THEIR COUNTRY BETTER!
The original was from US naval officer Stephen Decatur in 1816, at a dinner celebrating his victory over the Barbary pirates: "Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong!"
The British author G.K. Chesterton famously mocked the logic of the original quote in 1901, saying: "‘My country, right or wrong’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.’"
I prefer the updated version: “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be KEPT right; and if wrong, to be SET right.”
—Carl Schurz (1829-1906) Prussian immigrant, Civil War general, Senator from Missouri, Secretary of the Interior (husband of Margarethe Meyer-Schurz, founder of America’s first kindergarten in Watertown, Wisconsin, in 1854)
But let it be noted that none of these versions just stopped with "My country, right or wrong", implying unquestioning devotion and loyalty, even if "my country" is engaging in heinous atrocities. Each one implied that one's DUTY is to one's country, including fixing it when it goes astray.
I hate how sayings and quotes are mutilated into meaning something completely different like that, and especially when the altered meaning has reduced it to simplistic propaganda.
I am a US army veteran and I feel more disrespected by people who want to take away the hard fought freedoms we have/had. The true patriots will be out on the streets today protesting the toddler-king and his followers.
USAF, 69-73. Several of my friends and neighbors who are ex-military are also anti-Trump. I am appalled that the current crop of generals and admirals are so willing to follow Trump's unconstitutional orders. I had had a bit of hope that they would be the roadblock to his warmongering.
It shouldn't have taken a year of litigation and a settlement agreement for the Superintendent to have done this.
Ms Khalaf has had the right to sit during the pledge since 𝘞𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘝𝘪𝘳𝘨𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘢 𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘉𝘰𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘌𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘷. 𝘉𝘢𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘦 in 1943. Seven decades before she was born. One would think a public school teacher wouls be aware of such a historical decision.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
Bullying is bad enough. Being bullied by a TEACHER should be a felony. But being bullied into what is alleged to be PATRIOTISM? That is beyond the pale in ways I'm not sure I can fully elucidate. I'm going to say it again:
FORCED PATRIOTISM IS NOT PATRIOTISM!!!
Danielle had every right to remain seated during the Pledge, and Ms. Soranno was completely OUT OF LINE in accosting her IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CLASS. I am mightily pleased that Ms. Khalaf won her suit, though I wonder if Soranno learned anything from this incident. Her repeated confrontations with Danielle suggest that she may not have.
And frankly, I think she needs to refresh her resume.
“Since you live in this country and enjoy its freedom, if you don’t like it, you should go back to your country.”
This teacher talks about the freedoms of this country while denying a young girl her freedom not to repeat the pledge. I do not think that teacher begins comprehend the irony there.
Repeat anything enough times and it tends to become meaningless. Why would you ever need to pledge allegiance more than once? No one intent on doing this country harm would hesitate to say the pledge. This country talks a good game of freedom, but woe be unto whomever stands up for their rights.
Anyone else listen to Skeptics Guide to the Universe? One of the hosts is having a problem with his daughter's science teacher. The teacher denied we landed on the moon and the host has been going after the school to do something. The school got the teacher to admit he was wrong and that was it. The host wanted more and the school is dragging its feet. The host thinks the school is intentionally delaying things until the school year is over and she's no longer has that teacher.
Schools need to do a better job with their teachers when they behave badly. I know there's a shortage but still...
Granted that it was a fictional scenario, but that scene in Interstellar when the teacher was trying to justify not teaching the Apollo moon landings positively had me LIVID. THAT SHIT HAPPENED, lady, and denying it because the world circumstances have changed doesn't change the fact that you are LYING TO KIDS.
I used to listen every week but got away from it after a year or two.
I don't understand why people think we didn't go to the moon. It's only approximately 240,000 miles. Lots of cars have traveled that far so we're certainly capable of making vehicles that can go the distance. Sure, it's a different environment but with billions of dollars we could certainly do the necessary engineering.
That's been going on for years, I'm afraid. I had a fifth grade teacher who threw things in class at least once, and no, nothing ever happened to her. That was something like 35 years ago now.
I've long thought it telling that we don't do better for our kids here in the US.
I don’t say the pledge, and I haven’t said it in many many years. I don’t say it for precisely the reasons that hemant mentions. As a gay man, I could seethat liberty and justice for gay people was only going to happen over a great many unresurrected Christian bodies, and that it would always be tentative…
… until the next religious demagogue needed a scapegoat.
What I will do is stand out of respect to the people around me. That’s just a courtesy. I won’t say the pledge, I won’t put my hand over my heart, and I will not lie.
I also object to pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth. It’s a symbol of something else, of course, but I am not a symbol junkie. I’m not addicted to them. I don’t mistake them for what they represent. And right now, what the flag represents is the most corrupt, immoral, incompetent, anti human, pro billionaire, dominionist administration in our history.
"...if you don't like it, you should go back to your country."
Did you forget how this country was founded, Serrano? Does genocide and stolen land ring a bell? Unless you are an indigenous person, you are hardly one to lecture anyone about who and who does not belong here.
Anyone willing to bet that this teacher is a Christian fascist and a die hard Trump supporter (I realize that is redundant)?
Perhaps the authorities should check the teacher computer browser, considering how many Trump supporters have skeletons in their closets, and how many we have seen getting arrested for crimes against children!
Might want to look up West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. (1943). NO ONE is required to salute the flag or stand for/recite your useless loyalty oath.
I can already hear the jerks sneering about "oh her FEELINGS were hurt what a bunch of snowflakes blah blah blah". Yeah, and this distress was so bad she became dangerously ill. Emotional distress can and does do real harm. I know someone who was bullied to a similar extent and that caused her to have a freaking miscarriage. It destroyed her life and then robbed her of her baby to be.
I was bullied by a teacher as a child, more than once in front of the class, because I was undiagnosed autistic and the teacher just plain did not like me. Guess what, this damaged me so badly that aged nine I told my mother that I was "very interested in suicide" and "when I grow up I'm going to do that because you won't be there to stop me". (If anyone is worried, I got help and never followed through on that. 40 years old and still kicking, if not always too happy about it).
Also fuck the stupid pledge. Us non-Americans think it's fucking insane and creepy and for good reason I should think.
A question occurs to me for all here assembled: What other country that practices democracy and open, fair, and transparent elections requires its citizens to pledge allegiance to itself?
Well we sure don't do that in Australia. Kids sing the national anthem at school assembly, or they did when I was a kid. Even that seems to have fallen off in more recent times, and back then if you didn't join in nobody cared.
I've said before we don't. It would seem a bit strange. We do sing the national anthem occasionally at prize-giving's and so on. Often in Maori. And we sometimes have prayers but no one really takes any notice of them.
Oh yeah, the "fuck your feelings, we're so much stronger than you" crowd actually mean "fuck YOUR feelings but MINE are super important". Project project project away!
When I was a child my mother told me just that, about bullies. How fitting. As it happens last time I encountered a workplace bully I politely confronted her about it and she ran the hell away!
In my fourth grade class in 1970 there were a pair of identical twin boys, Barry and Larry, who were, let’s say, not the brightest kids in the class. But they were not ‘bad’ kids in any sense whatsoever. One day our young, newbie male teacher, Mr. Hileman, got frustrated because one or the other boy could not answer some question. Teacher’s response was to loudly say, in a very nasty tone of voice, “You’re so lazy, you stink!” I knew then that was abominable behavior from a teacher and I have never forgotten it. I still feel bad for those boys.
About 15 years later, as a reporter form our local newspaper, I was assigned to cover some sort of book convention, and who did I meet there but Mr. Hileman, working as a textbook company rep. I wondered if he had left teaching voluntarily or had been forced out. Either way, I was so glad to see he was out of the profession.
It's fucking disgusting what teachers used to be allowed to get away with. When my mother was a schoolchild she also had a teacher who personally disliked her, and THAT teacher would beat her with a strap in front of the class.
Im glad that this case went the way it should. No one should be penalised for taking a peaceful stand for what they believe in.
I’m not an American, and I’ve always found your Pledge of Allegiance a bit creepy. It’s a form of indoctrination into the worship of the state, that I always thought would be more at home in the old Soviet states than USA.
Keep in mind, the original Pledge was invented and promoted TO SELL FLAGS! Once the government got its hands on it is when things start to go south in a big way.
The powers-that-be are trying to have it both ways here - you have the right to refuse participation, but they also want to encourage participation. This invariably leads to petty tyrants like Sorranno abusing the rights of students by forcing participation in “voluntary” rituals.
If those asshats really want participation and patriotism, they can start teaching civics again, with a particular focus on the Constitution, how it came to be, and just WHY it is the important and unique document that it is.
I can't escape the feeling that such an idea wouldn't go over well, though. Why is that?
Yes, but... if they taught civics and US history to the degree of thoroughness those subjects deserve, there wouldn't be a student in the classroom willing to tolerate the flag-worshiping nationalism, and that would just defeat the whole point of indoctrination!
GOOD!
I detest bullies. They must be fought. Always.
Forced patriotism is fake patriotism. A true patriot is a person willing to stand up and say that their country is wrong and TRY TO MAKE THEIR COUNTRY BETTER!
"'My country right or wrong' is the same as 'my mother drunk or sober'" ~Some wit whose name I've forgotten.
The original was from US naval officer Stephen Decatur in 1816, at a dinner celebrating his victory over the Barbary pirates: "Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong!"
The British author G.K. Chesterton famously mocked the logic of the original quote in 1901, saying: "‘My country, right or wrong’ is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, ‘My mother, drunk or sober.’"
I prefer the updated version: “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be KEPT right; and if wrong, to be SET right.”
—Carl Schurz (1829-1906) Prussian immigrant, Civil War general, Senator from Missouri, Secretary of the Interior (husband of Margarethe Meyer-Schurz, founder of America’s first kindergarten in Watertown, Wisconsin, in 1854)
But let it be noted that none of these versions just stopped with "My country, right or wrong", implying unquestioning devotion and loyalty, even if "my country" is engaging in heinous atrocities. Each one implied that one's DUTY is to one's country, including fixing it when it goes astray.
I hate how sayings and quotes are mutilated into meaning something completely different like that, and especially when the altered meaning has reduced it to simplistic propaganda.
Repeating the Pedge every day is more about enforcing rote conformity than anything else.
It is also a form of indoctrination, which should be nowhere near a classroom!
ESPECIALLY bullies in a position of power. That teacher stepped WAY over the line and should have been immediately fired.
I am a US army veteran and I feel more disrespected by people who want to take away the hard fought freedoms we have/had. The true patriots will be out on the streets today protesting the toddler-king and his followers.
"I may not agree with your opinion but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" should be the Army Creed.
You and me both. Vietnam, 68-69.
USAF, 69-73. Several of my friends and neighbors who are ex-military are also anti-Trump. I am appalled that the current crop of generals and admirals are so willing to follow Trump's unconstitutional orders. I had had a bit of hope that they would be the roadblock to his warmongering.
Hopefully they’ll be Nuremberg’s along with the entire administration.
Trump fired all the ones who would hold up the Constitution, and replaced them with loyalists.
(US Navy, 1978-84, 1985-1996)
Hear hear!
𝑆𝑢𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑀𝑜𝑛𝑖𝑐𝑎 𝑀𝑒𝑟𝑟𝑖𝑡𝑡 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐𝑙𝑦 𝑝𝑟𝑎𝑖𝑠𝑒𝑑 𝐷𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑒𝑙𝑙𝑒 𝑓𝑜𝑟 “𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑤𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑎𝑔𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑎𝑘𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑢𝑝 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡.”
It shouldn't have taken a year of litigation and a settlement agreement for the Superintendent to have done this.
Ms Khalaf has had the right to sit during the pledge since 𝘞𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘝𝘪𝘳𝘨𝘪𝘯𝘪𝘢 𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘉𝘰𝘢𝘳𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘌𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘷. 𝘉𝘢𝘳𝘯𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘦 in 1943. Seven decades before she was born. One would think a public school teacher wouls be aware of such a historical decision.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
-- Justice Jackson.
And the preceding words of the majority opinion, IMO even more powerful:
"𝘛𝘰 𝘣𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘦𝘷𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵𝘪𝘴𝘮 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘧𝘭𝘰𝘶𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘩 𝘪𝘧 𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵𝘪𝘤 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘮𝘰𝘯𝘪𝘦𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘷𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘳𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘦𝘰𝘶𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘢𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘱𝘶𝘭𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘺 𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘢𝘯 𝘶𝘯𝘧𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘦𝘢𝘭 𝘰𝘧 𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘪𝘯𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘵𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘴. 𝘞𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘩𝘢𝘷𝘦 𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘤𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭 𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘪𝘥𝘶𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘴𝘮 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘩 𝘤𝘶𝘭𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘥𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘪𝘵𝘪𝘦𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘸𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘦𝘹𝘤𝘦𝘱𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘴 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘰𝘤𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘦𝘤𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘪𝘵𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘢𝘣𝘯𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘵𝘶𝘥𝘦𝘴. 𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘰 𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘮𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘚𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘥𝘦𝘢𝘭 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦, 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘵𝘰𝘰 𝘨𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘵. 𝘉𝘶𝘵 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥𝘰𝘮 𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘪𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘭𝘪𝘮𝘪𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘥𝘰 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘮𝘶𝘤𝘩. 𝘛𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘸𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 𝘣𝘦 𝘢 𝘮𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘩𝘢𝘥𝘰𝘸 𝘰𝘧 𝘧𝘳𝘦𝘦𝘥𝘰𝘮. 𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘵𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘪𝘵𝘴 𝘴𝘶𝘣𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘥𝘪𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘢𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘰𝘶𝘤𝘩 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘦𝘹𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘳𝘥𝘦𝘳."
Bullying is bad enough. Being bullied by a TEACHER should be a felony. But being bullied into what is alleged to be PATRIOTISM? That is beyond the pale in ways I'm not sure I can fully elucidate. I'm going to say it again:
FORCED PATRIOTISM IS NOT PATRIOTISM!!!
Danielle had every right to remain seated during the Pledge, and Ms. Soranno was completely OUT OF LINE in accosting her IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CLASS. I am mightily pleased that Ms. Khalaf won her suit, though I wonder if Soranno learned anything from this incident. Her repeated confrontations with Danielle suggest that she may not have.
And frankly, I think she needs to refresh her resume.
If justice prevails, she should be terminated and have her credentials revoked so she is unable to ever teach again.
ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY!!!
Foced patriotism is nationalism, plain and simple.
And we see what nationalism has done.
Nationalism and jingoism.
Anyone belittling a student, for any reason, shouldn’t be teaching! End of.
What. You. Said!
“Since you live in this country and enjoy its freedom, if you don’t like it, you should go back to your country.”
This teacher talks about the freedoms of this country while denying a young girl her freedom not to repeat the pledge. I do not think that teacher begins comprehend the irony there.
Repeat anything enough times and it tends to become meaningless. Why would you ever need to pledge allegiance more than once? No one intent on doing this country harm would hesitate to say the pledge. This country talks a good game of freedom, but woe be unto whomever stands up for their rights.
That teacher was a bigot, pure and simple. A student who is brown did not conform to the teacher's ideology, so was bullied by the bigot.
Irony is lost on the Christian fascist assholes! In fact, reality is lost on the Christian fascist fuckwits!
“Go back to where you came from” is the oldest form of racism, isn’t it?
If everyone did that, we’d all be inbred…just a thought…
A good reply: "Unless your bigoted ass was born in this classroom, take your own advice."
Anyone else listen to Skeptics Guide to the Universe? One of the hosts is having a problem with his daughter's science teacher. The teacher denied we landed on the moon and the host has been going after the school to do something. The school got the teacher to admit he was wrong and that was it. The host wanted more and the school is dragging its feet. The host thinks the school is intentionally delaying things until the school year is over and she's no longer has that teacher.
Schools need to do a better job with their teachers when they behave badly. I know there's a shortage but still...
Granted that it was a fictional scenario, but that scene in Interstellar when the teacher was trying to justify not teaching the Apollo moon landings positively had me LIVID. THAT SHIT HAPPENED, lady, and denying it because the world circumstances have changed doesn't change the fact that you are LYING TO KIDS.
And you don't deserve to be a teacher.
I used to listen every week but got away from it after a year or two.
I don't understand why people think we didn't go to the moon. It's only approximately 240,000 miles. Lots of cars have traveled that far so we're certainly capable of making vehicles that can go the distance. Sure, it's a different environment but with billions of dollars we could certainly do the necessary engineering.
That's been going on for years, I'm afraid. I had a fifth grade teacher who threw things in class at least once, and no, nothing ever happened to her. That was something like 35 years ago now.
I've long thought it telling that we don't do better for our kids here in the US.
I don’t say the pledge, and I haven’t said it in many many years. I don’t say it for precisely the reasons that hemant mentions. As a gay man, I could seethat liberty and justice for gay people was only going to happen over a great many unresurrected Christian bodies, and that it would always be tentative…
… until the next religious demagogue needed a scapegoat.
What I will do is stand out of respect to the people around me. That’s just a courtesy. I won’t say the pledge, I won’t put my hand over my heart, and I will not lie.
I also object to pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth. It’s a symbol of something else, of course, but I am not a symbol junkie. I’m not addicted to them. I don’t mistake them for what they represent. And right now, what the flag represents is the most corrupt, immoral, incompetent, anti human, pro billionaire, dominionist administration in our history.
So good on this young woman.
"...if you don't like it, you should go back to your country."
Did you forget how this country was founded, Serrano? Does genocide and stolen land ring a bell? Unless you are an indigenous person, you are hardly one to lecture anyone about who and who does not belong here.
Anyone willing to bet that this teacher is a Christian fascist and a die hard Trump supporter (I realize that is redundant)?
Perhaps the authorities should check the teacher computer browser, considering how many Trump supporters have skeletons in their closets, and how many we have seen getting arrested for crimes against children!
Hey, Serrano...
Might want to look up West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. (1943). NO ONE is required to salute the flag or stand for/recite your useless loyalty oath.
Hope she wasn't a history teacher, because she clearly doesn't know HERS!
I can already hear the jerks sneering about "oh her FEELINGS were hurt what a bunch of snowflakes blah blah blah". Yeah, and this distress was so bad she became dangerously ill. Emotional distress can and does do real harm. I know someone who was bullied to a similar extent and that caused her to have a freaking miscarriage. It destroyed her life and then robbed her of her baby to be.
I was bullied by a teacher as a child, more than once in front of the class, because I was undiagnosed autistic and the teacher just plain did not like me. Guess what, this damaged me so badly that aged nine I told my mother that I was "very interested in suicide" and "when I grow up I'm going to do that because you won't be there to stop me". (If anyone is worried, I got help and never followed through on that. 40 years old and still kicking, if not always too happy about it).
Also fuck the stupid pledge. Us non-Americans think it's fucking insane and creepy and for good reason I should think.
A question occurs to me for all here assembled: What other country that practices democracy and open, fair, and transparent elections requires its citizens to pledge allegiance to itself?
Well we sure don't do that in Australia. Kids sing the national anthem at school assembly, or they did when I was a kid. Even that seems to have fallen off in more recent times, and back then if you didn't join in nobody cared.
I can dig it! Thanks for your answer!
I've said before we don't. It would seem a bit strange. We do sing the national anthem occasionally at prize-giving's and so on. Often in Maori. And we sometimes have prayers but no one really takes any notice of them.
I've just about always sung along with The Star-Spangled Banner at events, but then, I REALLY like to sing ... and yeah, I love my country.
Problem is: right now, its government sucks big-time.
It's interesting because Conservatives' feelings are so easily hurt aren't they? You see them on Fox news all the time.
Oh yeah, the "fuck your feelings, we're so much stronger than you" crowd actually mean "fuck YOUR feelings but MINE are super important". Project project project away!
This is a consistent thing about conservatives: they love to dish it out, BUT THEY CAN'T TAKE IT WORTH A GOOD FUCK!
When I was a child my mother told me just that, about bullies. How fitting. As it happens last time I encountered a workplace bully I politely confronted her about it and she ran the hell away!
Frequently (though not always), the same thing happens when you confront believers with those nasty things called FACTS.
Oh yeah, it's the same message: "I have nothing to counter this with so I'm just going to try and avoid it by running away."
In my fourth grade class in 1970 there were a pair of identical twin boys, Barry and Larry, who were, let’s say, not the brightest kids in the class. But they were not ‘bad’ kids in any sense whatsoever. One day our young, newbie male teacher, Mr. Hileman, got frustrated because one or the other boy could not answer some question. Teacher’s response was to loudly say, in a very nasty tone of voice, “You’re so lazy, you stink!” I knew then that was abominable behavior from a teacher and I have never forgotten it. I still feel bad for those boys.
About 15 years later, as a reporter form our local newspaper, I was assigned to cover some sort of book convention, and who did I meet there but Mr. Hileman, working as a textbook company rep. I wondered if he had left teaching voluntarily or had been forced out. Either way, I was so glad to see he was out of the profession.
It's fucking disgusting what teachers used to be allowed to get away with. When my mother was a schoolchild she also had a teacher who personally disliked her, and THAT teacher would beat her with a strap in front of the class.
The teacher's feelings were hurt and the cons will defend her acting on those hurt feelings, but a child can't.
Im glad that this case went the way it should. No one should be penalised for taking a peaceful stand for what they believe in.
I’m not an American, and I’ve always found your Pledge of Allegiance a bit creepy. It’s a form of indoctrination into the worship of the state, that I always thought would be more at home in the old Soviet states than USA.
Keep in mind, the original Pledge was invented and promoted TO SELL FLAGS! Once the government got its hands on it is when things start to go south in a big way.
To be fair, it was still plenty creepy when it was just an advertisement.
Especially that stupid salute!
I heard this one guy with a funny mustache liked it an awful lot, but that's neither here nor there.
Big smile! Big Smile! BIG SMILE!!!
That actually explains an awful lot 🤦♀️
The powers-that-be are trying to have it both ways here - you have the right to refuse participation, but they also want to encourage participation. This invariably leads to petty tyrants like Sorranno abusing the rights of students by forcing participation in “voluntary” rituals.
If those asshats really want participation and patriotism, they can start teaching civics again, with a particular focus on the Constitution, how it came to be, and just WHY it is the important and unique document that it is.
I can't escape the feeling that such an idea wouldn't go over well, though. Why is that?
Yes, but... if they taught civics and US history to the degree of thoroughness those subjects deserve, there wouldn't be a student in the classroom willing to tolerate the flag-worshiping nationalism, and that would just defeat the whole point of indoctrination!
Oh, DARN! 🤣🤣🤣
Spot on, the jesusfuckers don’t want those they hate to know their RIGHTS and STAND UP for them!
The utter lack of self-awareness to be talking about freedom while denying it to another is appalling.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5a961e692d5b5a34bd878b5da700a9f0e4adb6b7fde44371b55bef9cde74d9c4.jpg
That is right on!
Never had much use for the Pledge. I prefer Old English furniture polish.
VERY proud of Danielle for knowing and being willing to stand up for her rights! Well done!