Thank you Joe. I really appreciate your comment and frankly it is completely on point. I am among the second generation of immigrants … and now there are many cousins. We are Irish and Catholic and more.
IAmong us we are respectful and Catholic and others from other beliefs, countries and practices. There is no one among us who would think someone with differently religious or other beliefs should not be accepted and supported. We are open and appreciate different our differences and beliefs. We sense, in fact appreciate our differences as Americans. I hope this becomes a broad accepted practices as Americans
I agree with S. Arch below. Your comment, as well as Joe King's are well said and Walters might could do with hearing it directly from you and the rest of us. No vitriol, just a statement of facts. As for myself, I might offer to keep his flag pin in my jewelry box until he learns its meaning.
Directing comments to Walters seems like an obvious waste of time. Perhaps LTEs to Oklahoma newspapers? Or donations to any political candidates that oppose this bullshit.
You could be right. I don’t live in OK so will be easy to ignore, and I think a letter to the editor won’t have substantially more reach. But who knows how many Oklahomans are here today?
I sometimes like to do old fashioned social media - sending a snarky postcard with the hope a PO or mailroom employee could get a kick out of it. In truth, I do it more for me than them.
The last I read said Oklahoma ranks 47th in education in this country. Evidently, Walters is all in on reaching that coveted 50th spot. No theocracy was ever a bastion of human rights and intellectual freedom. There are few things less likely to succeed in improving education than forcing the Bible on school children. The philosophy of John Locke had far more to do with what went into America's foundational document than the Bible ever did. That foundational document bans religious tests for holding public office in the United States, and that sure sounds like church-state separation to me.
For Walters' information, the seven key founders...the ones who had the most influence in shaping this country and its government...are these:
George Washington. Deist.
Thomas Jefferson. Deist.
James Madison. Deist.
John Adams. Deist.
Benjamin Franklin. Deist.
Alexander Hamilton. Nominal Christian.
John Jay. Orthodox Christian.
Jefferson was the architect of the Declaration of Independence, explaining why we were breaking away from a Christian empire and a king who believed he had a divine right to rule us at a distance. James Madison was the architect of the US Constitution, which made NO mention of Christianity ("The Year of Our Lord" is an outmoded dating system that was not part of the body of the text and was added later by a scrivener). John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli into law, which had been ratified unanimously without debate and specificially stated that the govt. of the US was NOT based on the Christian religion.
Oh, and by the way, I describe Hamilton as a nominal Christian because he used his religion when it was convenient and otherwise ignored it. This made John Jay the sole out-and-out Christian. Later, in considering New York's constitution, Jay attempted to include a clause that would deprive Catholics of the right to own land or participate in government. His motion failed to pass.
As you say breaking away from a Christian empire made perfect sense when America was rejecting the concept of Kingship. Now it is embracing it again reverting to Christianity as a part of being an American makes perfect sense.
It's kinda ironic how Christian Nationalists want to run with the lie that communists are by definition anti-Christian. We do hear stories today about China but China is not exactly a communist regime. (Just look at the number of billionaires in China.) But the lies came from the propaganda surrounding the Cold War with Russia. Russia did not exactly ban Christianity. They decided to have a secular government. As a counter to that, many politicians and other people in power chose to distance themselves from communism by claiming the US was a Christian Nation despite our Constitution having a similar slant about a secular government. In my opinion, those people were not patriots any more than the Christian Nationalists are today.
People like this guy are very transparent in their motives to me. Walters is clearly an anti-American troll who is trying to rip down this country for nefarious purposes. There is no other explanation why anyone would want to make Americans dumber while denying history. History that WILL be repeated once enough people forget it.
Walters won't be happy until Oklahoma is the 51st state in education.
Not because there will actually 𝘣𝘦 51 states, mind you, but rather because the entire population, after he and his ilk are finished gutting public education, will be 𝘵𝘰𝘰 𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘵-𝘴𝘵𝘶𝘱𝘪𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘶𝘤𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘤𝘰𝘶𝘯𝘵.
Perhaps Herr Walters would care to explain why Frank Bellamy, the Christian Socialist who concocted the Pledge of Allegiance, elected to keep any mention of the Christian god OUT of that pledge?
I have always found it ironic that they inserted "under God" between "Nation" and "indivisible". Today's pledge should read" "...one Nation, divided by God...".
"Describe how the Constitution was influenced by religion, morality and the Bible as a frequently cited authority by America's founders."
It wasn't. At all. Just the opposite. It only mentions the freedom to worship, not for one religion to impose its ideology on another. It also states that there will be no religious test for public office. It makes no mention of the bible or the Christian religion. And morality is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution.
Geez Walters, get an education. No wonder your state is ranked next-to-last in that department.
The 1st Commandment: "I am a jealous god. Don't worship anyone but me!!!!!!"
The 1st Amendment: "You want to worship someone other than god, multiple gods or no god at all? Yeah, go ahead, knock yourself out. Don't make no difference to me."
I have invented a god (or perhaps i was inspired by this god) that I call the god of the one commandment. The 1C is “put no other gods before me”. This hypothetical — but possibly real! — god doesn’t want worship or obedience or anything from humans except for one thing: Don’t put any other gods above it. It wasn’t revealed to me why that is such a hot button issue but, hey, who am I to argue with a god. Fortunately, as an atheist, I do not put any other gods above this one so I get heaven! Christians are fucked.
The constitution was influenced by the Bible, by creating such a terrible system that the founding fathers took the opposite position of the Bible on every important point of the government. They defied the Devine right of kings to secede from England, then create an entirely different type of leadership system that has checks and balances to ensure no one can claim divine rights. Just as one example. They did this intentionally with the Bible in mind. So it was a more negative influence. Walters, however, wants to pretend the Bible supports any detail of the constitution and the freedom it provides to the citizens, which couldn’t be further from reality.
D. Describe how the Constitution of the United States was influenced by religion, morality, and the Bible as frequently cited authority by America's founders.
And these are but two citations out of more than I could hope to count. Per usual, Walters has his own agenda he wants to push. He would do well to take off his god-glasses (not that he will) and get a more comprehensive view of things.
Clearly, you've mentioned that several times and it's pretty annoying. What's the point of having a comment section if people can't comment without hearing from you? Believe me, if any one of us had a direct line to Walter's we wouldn't be wasting our time talking to you.
You ask, "what is the point of having a comment section..." I ask, what is the point of preaching to the choir? Instead of complaining to like-minded people in comment sections, we should be complaining to the people who are causing the harm.
“Evaluate the role of Judeo-Christian ideals in supporting colonial demands for independence, as exemplified by the Bible being a frequently cited authority by America's Founders.”
This is the only standard listed that may actually be alright. That is IF there is a competent teacher going into all the nuance of what the founders were actually thinking. First, the essay on this subject would need to fully explain why "Judeo-Christian ideals" aren't a real thing, and how the phrase wasn't even used until at least a century after the founders were dead. Then they need to go into the Enlightenment and how those ideas were far more influential on the push for independence than Christianity. Then they need to point out that the few biblical references made by the founders were primarily for cultural reference, since most people in their audience had at least a passing familiarity with the book.
Unfortunately, both the time constraints and the indoctrination of the teachers will make this more a pseudohistorical "Christian equals American" nonsense.
Yes, the concept of seed faith is basically what keeps mega church leaders going isn't it? And of course their gullible supporters belief in it. How long do you wait for riches without tangible result before you give up on the church altogether? I suspect a fair time, but the result is often simply shifting to another church rather than leaving the church altogether unfortunately.
As I like to say, the hyphen in "Judeo-Christian" is attached with explosive bolts- which will be triggered the moment the Nat-Cs feel secure in their power.
AIUI, Early Christians glommed onto what eventually became the Old Testament because they wanted their new religion to have the legitimacy of an old, established one. Thus, they co-opted the Jewish prophecies of a coming Messiah and presented their Jesus as the fulfillment of that prophecy, thereby laying claim to a tradition/belief system going back millennia, but with a twist - theirs was the New and Improved version, a part of God's Plan for Mankind, and they were in sole possession of it.
It wasn't long before this became a double-edged sword: in addition to validating an emerging Jesus-centered belief, it was also used as a cudgel against the Jews, for refusing to believe that Christ was the Messiah, and later as a justification for antisemitic beliefs and atrocities.
The Old Testament (OT) is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew and occasionally Aramaic writings by the Israelites.”
"The same push for performative patriotism is suggested in section (D), which calls for kids to learn “appropriate ways to show respect” during the National Anthem. Taking a knee because you demand more from this country is presumably not one of those ways."
If a British subject knelt before Queen Elizabeth, was he being disrespectful?
If a devout parishioner kneels in church, is it because she loathes God?
If an ardent swain kneels before his beloved while proposing, does he hate her?
Was that gal from Kent State disrespecting the student shot by the Ohio National Guard?
OK, I’ll grant that anyone kneeling before Daenerys Targaryen or General Zod was probably doing so more out of fear than admiration, but you get the idea. When did kneeling become equated with lack of respect?
Is that a serious question? Since Colin Kaepernick used it as a protest gesture back in 2016.
Now the gesture can certainly mean more than one thing. But I think it is pretty easy to tell when a HS student is kneeling out of respect for something (e.g. in a church service) vs. when they are kneeling as a form of silent protest (e.g. in a class or on a sports field while the anthem is being played). And no teacher, coach, or Principle is going to be fooled if the student claims they were doing it to show respect.
The late David Soul, he of Starsky and Hutch and Salem's Lot (the original TV mini-series version) fame. There's one piece of evidence for the existence of Souls./s
Mr Walters:
Please explain exactly how teaching students that Christianity is mandatory is "pro-America".
If I remember correctly, religious freedom as embodied in the Constitution applies to more than just Christianity.
Thank you Joe. I really appreciate your comment and frankly it is completely on point. I am among the second generation of immigrants … and now there are many cousins. We are Irish and Catholic and more.
IAmong us we are respectful and Catholic and others from other beliefs, countries and practices. There is no one among us who would think someone with differently religious or other beliefs should not be accepted and supported. We are open and appreciate different our differences and beliefs. We sense, in fact appreciate our differences as Americans. I hope this becomes a broad accepted practices as Americans
I agree with S. Arch below. Your comment, as well as Joe King's are well said and Walters might could do with hearing it directly from you and the rest of us. No vitriol, just a statement of facts. As for myself, I might offer to keep his flag pin in my jewelry box until he learns its meaning.
Directing comments to Walters seems like an obvious waste of time. Perhaps LTEs to Oklahoma newspapers? Or donations to any political candidates that oppose this bullshit.
You could be right. I don’t live in OK so will be easy to ignore, and I think a letter to the editor won’t have substantially more reach. But who knows how many Oklahomans are here today?
I sometimes like to do old fashioned social media - sending a snarky postcard with the hope a PO or mailroom employee could get a kick out of it. In truth, I do it more for me than them.
Why are you telling us? Tell Walters.
Agree -_-_ forget critical thinking , build SILOS📚
🐑🐑🐑sheep we recycle🤷♂️(after we get their VOTE),Thanks respectfully
In other words, "Seig Heil." "Gott Mit Uns." And then "Arbeit Macht Frei."
Und next I hope he goes Auf Wiedersehen!
Und actually... better still... KAPUT!
The last I read said Oklahoma ranks 47th in education in this country. Evidently, Walters is all in on reaching that coveted 50th spot. No theocracy was ever a bastion of human rights and intellectual freedom. There are few things less likely to succeed in improving education than forcing the Bible on school children. The philosophy of John Locke had far more to do with what went into America's foundational document than the Bible ever did. That foundational document bans religious tests for holding public office in the United States, and that sure sounds like church-state separation to me.
Agree- critical thinkers,are informed VOTERS.🐑Folks wearing blinders are ☣️dangerous.THANKS
For Walters' information, the seven key founders...the ones who had the most influence in shaping this country and its government...are these:
George Washington. Deist.
Thomas Jefferson. Deist.
James Madison. Deist.
John Adams. Deist.
Benjamin Franklin. Deist.
Alexander Hamilton. Nominal Christian.
John Jay. Orthodox Christian.
Jefferson was the architect of the Declaration of Independence, explaining why we were breaking away from a Christian empire and a king who believed he had a divine right to rule us at a distance. James Madison was the architect of the US Constitution, which made NO mention of Christianity ("The Year of Our Lord" is an outmoded dating system that was not part of the body of the text and was added later by a scrivener). John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli into law, which had been ratified unanimously without debate and specificially stated that the govt. of the US was NOT based on the Christian religion.
Oh, and by the way, I describe Hamilton as a nominal Christian because he used his religion when it was convenient and otherwise ignored it. This made John Jay the sole out-and-out Christian. Later, in considering New York's constitution, Jay attempted to include a clause that would deprive Catholics of the right to own land or participate in government. His motion failed to pass.
As you say breaking away from a Christian empire made perfect sense when America was rejecting the concept of Kingship. Now it is embracing it again reverting to Christianity as a part of being an American makes perfect sense.
It's kinda ironic how Christian Nationalists want to run with the lie that communists are by definition anti-Christian. We do hear stories today about China but China is not exactly a communist regime. (Just look at the number of billionaires in China.) But the lies came from the propaganda surrounding the Cold War with Russia. Russia did not exactly ban Christianity. They decided to have a secular government. As a counter to that, many politicians and other people in power chose to distance themselves from communism by claiming the US was a Christian Nation despite our Constitution having a similar slant about a secular government. In my opinion, those people were not patriots any more than the Christian Nationalists are today.
People like this guy are very transparent in their motives to me. Walters is clearly an anti-American troll who is trying to rip down this country for nefarious purposes. There is no other explanation why anyone would want to make Americans dumber while denying history. History that WILL be repeated once enough people forget it.
Walters won't be happy until Oklahoma is the 51st state in education.
Not because there will actually 𝘣𝘦 51 states, mind you, but rather because the entire population, after he and his ilk are finished gutting public education, will be 𝘵𝘰𝘰 𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘵-𝘴𝘵𝘶𝘱𝘪𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘶𝘤𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘤𝘰𝘶𝘯𝘵.
Perhaps Herr Walters would care to explain why Frank Bellamy, the Christian Socialist who concocted the Pledge of Allegiance, elected to keep any mention of the Christian god OUT of that pledge?
We'll wait.
I have always found it ironic that they inserted "under God" between "Nation" and "indivisible". Today's pledge should read" "...one Nation, divided by God...".
"Describe how the Constitution was influenced by religion, morality and the Bible as a frequently cited authority by America's founders."
It wasn't. At all. Just the opposite. It only mentions the freedom to worship, not for one religion to impose its ideology on another. It also states that there will be no religious test for public office. It makes no mention of the bible or the Christian religion. And morality is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution.
Geez Walters, get an education. No wonder your state is ranked next-to-last in that department.
The 1st Commandment: "I am a jealous god. Don't worship anyone but me!!!!!!"
The 1st Amendment: "You want to worship someone other than god, multiple gods or no god at all? Yeah, go ahead, knock yourself out. Don't make no difference to me."
See, the two are exactly the same!/s
That first one came from the Trump Bible, yes?
I have invented a god (or perhaps i was inspired by this god) that I call the god of the one commandment. The 1C is “put no other gods before me”. This hypothetical — but possibly real! — god doesn’t want worship or obedience or anything from humans except for one thing: Don’t put any other gods above it. It wasn’t revealed to me why that is such a hot button issue but, hey, who am I to argue with a god. Fortunately, as an atheist, I do not put any other gods above this one so I get heaven! Christians are fucked.
The constitution was influenced by the Bible, by creating such a terrible system that the founding fathers took the opposite position of the Bible on every important point of the government. They defied the Devine right of kings to secede from England, then create an entirely different type of leadership system that has checks and balances to ensure no one can claim divine rights. Just as one example. They did this intentionally with the Bible in mind. So it was a more negative influence. Walters, however, wants to pretend the Bible supports any detail of the constitution and the freedom it provides to the citizens, which couldn’t be further from reality.
JFKennedy" I am first an AMERICAN" every other category/discription is incidental.Critical thinking and humanist bent are INCLUSIVE- not divisive.
Thanks Respectfully
D. Describe how the Constitution of the United States was influenced by religion, morality, and the Bible as frequently cited authority by America's founders.
Okay:
𝐴𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑈𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑆𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑎 𝑖𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑖𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑠𝑒𝑛𝑠𝑒 𝑓𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑜𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐶ℎ𝑟𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑎𝑛 𝑅𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛...
-- Treaty of Tripoli, Article XI
Also:
𝐼𝑡 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑏𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑒𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑜𝑦𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑠𝑒𝑟𝑣𝑖𝑐𝑒 [the creation of the US government[ ℎ𝑎𝑑 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑜𝑑𝑠, 𝑜𝑟 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑖𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑑𝑒𝑔𝑟𝑒𝑒 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑖𝑛𝑓𝑙𝑢𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝐻𝑒𝑎𝑣𝑒𝑛...
-- John Adams
And these are but two citations out of more than I could hope to count. Per usual, Walters has his own agenda he wants to push. He would do well to take off his god-glasses (not that he will) and get a more comprehensive view of things.
Tell it to Walters.
Clearly, you've mentioned that several times and it's pretty annoying. What's the point of having a comment section if people can't comment without hearing from you? Believe me, if any one of us had a direct line to Walter's we wouldn't be wasting our time talking to you.
2500 North Lincoln Boulevard Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73105
Phone: 405-521-3301
What is more direct than Walters' phone number? It's easily available here: https://sde.ok.gov/superintendent
So, what other lame excuse do you have?
You ask, "what is the point of having a comment section..." I ask, what is the point of preaching to the choir? Instead of complaining to like-minded people in comment sections, we should be complaining to the people who are causing the harm.
I would, gladly.
So what's stopping you? I already did. And will again probably.
“Evaluate the role of Judeo-Christian ideals in supporting colonial demands for independence, as exemplified by the Bible being a frequently cited authority by America's Founders.”
This is the only standard listed that may actually be alright. That is IF there is a competent teacher going into all the nuance of what the founders were actually thinking. First, the essay on this subject would need to fully explain why "Judeo-Christian ideals" aren't a real thing, and how the phrase wasn't even used until at least a century after the founders were dead. Then they need to go into the Enlightenment and how those ideas were far more influential on the push for independence than Christianity. Then they need to point out that the few biblical references made by the founders were primarily for cultural reference, since most people in their audience had at least a passing familiarity with the book.
Unfortunately, both the time constraints and the indoctrination of the teachers will make this more a pseudohistorical "Christian equals American" nonsense.
Agree - they MUST teach ALL forms of religion.Otherwise it's gov.
propaganda & indoctrination. Waste of ed.$$.Why not teach philosophy 📚📑🔎THANKS
"The renunciation of worldly wealth?" Christians!?! In what alternate universe?
Yes, the concept of seed faith is basically what keeps mega church leaders going isn't it? And of course their gullible supporters belief in it. How long do you wait for riches without tangible result before you give up on the church altogether? I suspect a fair time, but the result is often simply shifting to another church rather than leaving the church altogether unfortunately.
Agree ,at a young age it's
all indoctrination & biased.
There it is again. Judeo/Christian. The false concept of "Judeo/Christian" is strictly a Christian one. Any rabbi worth his salt will tell you that.
As I like to say, the hyphen in "Judeo-Christian" is attached with explosive bolts- which will be triggered the moment the Nat-Cs feel secure in their power.
Yeah, the pope usually views them as competition at best, evil enemies at worst.
I always thought that was to justify them stealing the old Testament. Which doesn't mesh well with the New at all.
I'm not sure what you mean. Is it the jews that stole the old testament or the xians?
I believe the old testament was stolen from the jews, and I bet the parts the xians did not like was either deleted or re-written.
AIUI, Early Christians glommed onto what eventually became the Old Testament because they wanted their new religion to have the legitimacy of an old, established one. Thus, they co-opted the Jewish prophecies of a coming Messiah and presented their Jesus as the fulfillment of that prophecy, thereby laying claim to a tradition/belief system going back millennia, but with a twist - theirs was the New and Improved version, a part of God's Plan for Mankind, and they were in sole possession of it.
It wasn't long before this became a double-edged sword: in addition to validating an emerging Jesus-centered belief, it was also used as a cudgel against the Jews, for refusing to believe that Christ was the Messiah, and later as a justification for antisemitic beliefs and atrocities.
Yes, from Wikipedia.
“Was the Old Testament written by the Jews?
The Old Testament (OT) is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew and occasionally Aramaic writings by the Israelites.”
Thank you.
My bride, who is Jewish, audibly rolls her eyes at “Judeo-Christian”.
We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teacher, leave them kids alone
Thank you for reminding me what I want to listen to now.
"The same push for performative patriotism is suggested in section (D), which calls for kids to learn “appropriate ways to show respect” during the National Anthem. Taking a knee because you demand more from this country is presumably not one of those ways."
If a British subject knelt before Queen Elizabeth, was he being disrespectful?
If a devout parishioner kneels in church, is it because she loathes God?
If an ardent swain kneels before his beloved while proposing, does he hate her?
Was that gal from Kent State disrespecting the student shot by the Ohio National Guard?
OK, I’ll grant that anyone kneeling before Daenerys Targaryen or General Zod was probably doing so more out of fear than admiration, but you get the idea. When did kneeling become equated with lack of respect?
Is that a serious question? Since Colin Kaepernick used it as a protest gesture back in 2016.
Now the gesture can certainly mean more than one thing. But I think it is pretty easy to tell when a HS student is kneeling out of respect for something (e.g. in a church service) vs. when they are kneeling as a form of silent protest (e.g. in a class or on a sports field while the anthem is being played). And no teacher, coach, or Principle is going to be fooled if the student claims they were doing it to show respect.
But Kap asked a veteran how he could protest, without being disrespectful, and he suggested the kneel.
"I love the poorly educated"
It looks like Oklahoma will enjoy some wonderful benefits once the incoming "Vice" President takes office in January.
"Describe the Christian idea of the equality of souls..."
First provide evidence for the existence of souls.
I don't believe in souls... but I do believe in spirits!
https://greenlinegoods.com/cdn/shop/files/B07QP2BZM9--Science-clinking-Splash.jpg
The late David Soul, he of Starsky and Hutch and Salem's Lot (the original TV mini-series version) fame. There's one piece of evidence for the existence of Souls./s
And yet he's dead now! (Also, IIRC, that wasn't his real name)