In my view, lawmakers who pass blatantly unconstitutional laws should be held personally liable for the legal costs the state encounters when defending them.
++ Oh, I know, but it infuriates me that politicians engage in theatrical stunts like this and leave the tax payers holding the bag for the legal costs of defending them. Unfortunately, it will be a win-win for them. Now that the court shut them down, they can play the poor, persecuted victims of the godless left. Thus, rake in the donations.
I can imagine Governor Stitt calling Drummond on the carpet about this, and Drummond reading Stitt the Riot Act ... or more likely, the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and asking Stitt if he was serious about his oath defending the Constitution or not.
Another pay-per-view event for sure, if it ever happened! 😁
We could say the same thing about taxpayers on the hook for the millions of dollars paid out every year to victims of out-of-control law enforcement. I'm sure it's paid by insurance, but still...
Anyway, back to the subject - yes it's a huge deal but will prob end up w SCOTUS. The non-tax-paying Catholic Church has deep pockets when it comes to lawyers and litigation - but pleads "Buddy can you spare a dime" to the taxpayers when it comes to their education mission. What about Koch and all the deep pocket Conservative benefactors who pour millions into politics like it's nothing - why aren't they helping with this?
WOW! Someone in Oklahoma FINALLY got the message! That this happened in the Sooner State frankly drops my jaw to the floor, but about as pleasantly as that could ever happen. That the governor and Superintendent of Public Instruction are bent out of shape about the AG's action may be problematic, but at least for the moment, we have a real WIN here for the secular state and for genuine freedom OF AND FROM religion.
When asked about the ruling Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said, "Jesus. God. Jesus. God. God. Jesus. God. Jesus. God. Jesus. Jesus. God. Jesus. God. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus."
The OK AG came this close to actually getting it right, then he had to take a gratuitous swipe at islam and satanism, for no apparent reason. That's just pure religious bigotry.
If the catholic church wants students to get a catholic education, they should set up their own schools, provide tuition assistance for those who need it, and generally put their money where their beliefs are. Public tax dollars aren't monopoly money. They should only be used to fund schools that welcome all students and don't abuse their captive audiences by promoting religion in violation of the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses.
I was raised a catholic and went to a parochial school until the 8th grade. The only reason my parents would send us to a catholic school was because it was free to all members of the parish. But even back then, the church had its eye on those sweet, sweet taxpayer dollars. They didn't get them then, and they shouldn't get them now.
I know I've quoted from James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments before, but it's worth remembering that in 1785, before we even had a First Amendment, Madison was making the case against compelling taxpayers to fund religious teachers:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?"
To further paraphrase Madison: We should take alarm at the first christian nationalist experiment with our liberties.
That's the only thing they understand, us versus the Enemy Other...the idea that protecting everybody's religious liberty is the only way to protect their own is too abstract, doesn't make sense to them, and/or is not what they want to hear, so appealing to their bigoted ideas about Islam and TST is probably the only way to get through to them.
Does Drummond share their bigotry? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But he does know how to talk to his pointy-headed audience in terms they'll understand. Too bad those are apparently the only terms.
All they need to do is sell off a few Sacred Holy pope turds to pay for it. What, did you think they were going to flush the holy relics? They hoard everything.
No one really knows how much wealth and treasure the Vatican is hoarding in its vaults. Let them open up THOSE treasure troves to help out their religious schools. I'm betting they could fund all the religious schools their parishes could possibly want and still have enough left to feed every hungry person in the world.
I wonder if they hide more in their vaults or if the bulk of their riches is in real estate. They had literally millenia to buy land and build on it. Few countries confiscated it.
And his apparent inability to recognize a certain type of sharp object. "Oh, now that's a very interesting little blade you've got there. Strikes me as vaguely familiar, I wonder where I've SEEN - !"
First, I'm really sorry you were on the receiving end of such hatred as a child. That kind of thing leaves deep scars. There's no excuse for it, from the pastor or from your so-called friend, especially from people who claim to follow a 'religion of love.'
I've always said you don't need an atheist to tell you what's wrong with religion, christianity in particular. All you have to do is ask someone from a different sect. Nobody is more vicious about christianity than other christians.
You're absolutely right, Laurn. They see enemies everywhere, and they're ready to take offense at the slightest thing. They're perpetual victims, which is why they stockpile guns, ready to 'defend' themselves at all times, including inside their own churches.
For what it's worth, I also grew up catholic. One of the big turning points for me was when one of the nuns at school told me point blank that my best friend who was a methodist was going to hell. Christopher Hitchens was right when he subtitled his book, God is Not Great, 'How Religion Ruins Everything.'
I've been to the vatican Museum, they stole the best of everything, and ocassionally let the paying public see a small portion of it (there are three different tours available, there's so much swag).
Actually, I think it's a bit better than that. AG Drummond sure sounds as though he's serious about State / Church separation, and his statements show that. The question now becomes whether or not Governor Stitt tries to subvert his AG's action.
A chunk of me is thrilled about this decision. Another chunk smells a pissing contest about to begin.
Real Christians should be for church/state separation. This current bout of theological fascism is clearly not for the benefit of the religious, it's for the control of the country.
Seems to me that there are more than a few Christians who are very much FOR State / Church separation. Mostly, I suspect it's the Christian Nationalists, the Reconstructionists, and others like them that want to see the Establishment Clause erased from the Constitution.
The AG seems to have been against this, at least in part, because he isn't Catholic. If the charter school were of the evangelical stripe, he may have been a little less zealous in his defense of the constitution.
That's a pretty decisive defeat. I doubt Stitt was in the governor's office when it happened, though. Would be nice to see a repeat of that referendum in the here and now if necessary, if for no other reason than to rub salt in the wound! 😈
I wonder. Did Drummond objected to a religious charter school or to a catholic charter school. His remarks about sharia and Satanists schools are not the sign of an open mind.
Hard to tell. It's unclear whether the "oh no, Satanists" argument he gives in public is his real concern, or if he supports separation in general and he keeps bringing up Muslims and Satanists because he knows that will resonate better with citizens.
I guess it doesn't matter. Whatever his motivation, a 7-1 decision by the State Supreme Court means the result is not just one AG's personal bigotries or ideology.
I thought the exact same thing..... makes me think if the high school were going to be a Baptist High School that he would have supported it.... my bet is Drummond is Baptist. He only threw in the bullshit about Sharia law and Satanists to cover his ass so that he wouldn't get any blowback from his fellow christains for fighting against the funding of the Catholic School to begin with.
Good. Public funds should be reserved to schools who follow secular and non discriminatory laws. You want to send your children to a private school ? Crachez au bassinet* or find a scholarship.
Being parents that sent our two children to catholic schools grades 1-12, we still are glad this ruling was rendered. Our daughter is a teacher, not in Oklahoma, but we can see how much decreased funding for public schools would damage public education in America. Also, the fact that many, but not all, families that would get $ from vouchers the state taxpayers would fund (not sure if that is what this program would do) send their children to sectarian schools (see Missouri ) and apparently can already afford to do so. But they would still take public $ to pay for their kid’s education. Doesn’t sound fair to me. We’re glad we could afford our kid’s education but would not have taken $ from public schools to do it.
That too. There's no reason for them not to attempt to remove judges they don't like in the time.
Although... The more laws they can get shot down and sent before the US Supreme Corrupt - sorry Court - the more likely something will get through. Especially with the court stacked against the American citizens.
I posted less than two hours ago about how religious organizations pretty much never do a good job of policing themselves and somehow here we are again. The RCC in particular has had numerous problems in the after school area that should, by rights, prevent its leadership from being within 500 yards of anyone under the age of 18 and now they think they should be allowed to run a school?!?!?
The whole point of this school is pushing a religious agenda on kids before they're old enough to start poking at the obvious holes in the whole concept. The RCC also, since we're here, wants to have other people pay for the privilege of pushing said agenda, rather than dig into its own extensive coffers. I don't even live in Oklahoma and I find this to be offensive and unreasonable; so far as I can determine all the taxpayer gets here is the proverbial shaft. Thankfully, AG Drummond got his way, at least for now.
Here's hoping against hope this fails to make it to SCOTUS. We all know what they're going to do.
If one wants to send their child to a religious school, they should pay for it themselves or seek help from the religious organization sponsoring the school.
In my view, lawmakers who pass blatantly unconstitutional laws should be held personally liable for the legal costs the state encounters when defending them.
A nice wish. I'd like to hit the lotto for a couple hundred million dollars, too. Not holding my breath for either one of those, though. 😝
++ Oh, I know, but it infuriates me that politicians engage in theatrical stunts like this and leave the tax payers holding the bag for the legal costs of defending them. Unfortunately, it will be a win-win for them. Now that the court shut them down, they can play the poor, persecuted victims of the godless left. Thus, rake in the donations.
I can imagine Governor Stitt calling Drummond on the carpet about this, and Drummond reading Stitt the Riot Act ... or more likely, the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and asking Stitt if he was serious about his oath defending the Constitution or not.
Another pay-per-view event for sure, if it ever happened! 😁
They are both elected positions; the Governor can't fire or read the riot act to the AG.
Want some good news? Both the Governor and AG spot next elections are in 2026. And Stitt can't run, he's term-limited. Hmmm....
+++
I would pay a tidy sum to see that.
What I don't understand is why the fundies got behind this - they are 53% of the OK population while RCC are only 13%...
Camel’s nose. Tent.
🎯
Foot in door.
We could say the same thing about taxpayers on the hook for the millions of dollars paid out every year to victims of out-of-control law enforcement. I'm sure it's paid by insurance, but still...
Anyway, back to the subject - yes it's a huge deal but will prob end up w SCOTUS. The non-tax-paying Catholic Church has deep pockets when it comes to lawyers and litigation - but pleads "Buddy can you spare a dime" to the taxpayers when it comes to their education mission. What about Koch and all the deep pocket Conservative benefactors who pour millions into politics like it's nothing - why aren't they helping with this?
That was my first response, oh goody!
Especially seems some personal
penalty should apply when the lawmakers pass laws that THEY THEMSELVES SAY they know are unconstitutional and simply dare the public to sue the state.
Oh wait. We can vote them out of office! (But not doesn’t seem enough.)
+++
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑟𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑈.𝑆. 𝐶𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑠𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑑𝑟𝑎𝑓𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑂𝑘𝑙𝑎ℎ𝑜𝑚𝑎’𝑠 𝐶𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑐𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑟𝑙𝑦 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑜𝑑 ℎ𝑜𝑤 𝑏𝑒𝑠𝑡 𝑡𝑜 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑡𝑒𝑐𝑡 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑜𝑚: 𝑏𝑦 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑆𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑓𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑠𝑝𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑜𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑎𝑡 𝑎𝑙𝑙.
WOW! Someone in Oklahoma FINALLY got the message! That this happened in the Sooner State frankly drops my jaw to the floor, but about as pleasantly as that could ever happen. That the governor and Superintendent of Public Instruction are bent out of shape about the AG's action may be problematic, but at least for the moment, we have a real WIN here for the secular state and for genuine freedom OF AND FROM religion.
AG Drummond: Congrats and THANK YOU!!!
When asked about the ruling Superintendent of Public Instruction Ryan Walters said, "Jesus. God. Jesus. God. God. Jesus. God. Jesus. God. Jesus. Jesus. God. Jesus. God. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus."
He orgasmed in front of the media?
How is that any different from their usual?
Haysus Marimba! [smh!]
OY VEh, maRIA!!!
I'm actually seriously surprised.
The OK AG came this close to actually getting it right, then he had to take a gratuitous swipe at islam and satanism, for no apparent reason. That's just pure religious bigotry.
If the catholic church wants students to get a catholic education, they should set up their own schools, provide tuition assistance for those who need it, and generally put their money where their beliefs are. Public tax dollars aren't monopoly money. They should only be used to fund schools that welcome all students and don't abuse their captive audiences by promoting religion in violation of the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses.
I was raised a catholic and went to a parochial school until the 8th grade. The only reason my parents would send us to a catholic school was because it was free to all members of the parish. But even back then, the church had its eye on those sweet, sweet taxpayer dollars. They didn't get them then, and they shouldn't get them now.
I know I've quoted from James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments before, but it's worth remembering that in 1785, before we even had a First Amendment, Madison was making the case against compelling taxpayers to fund religious teachers:
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?"
To further paraphrase Madison: We should take alarm at the first christian nationalist experiment with our liberties.
Drummond had to swipe at Islam & Satanism in order to preemptively take a stand against the outrage from the Christian Taliban.
That's the only thing they understand, us versus the Enemy Other...the idea that protecting everybody's religious liberty is the only way to protect their own is too abstract, doesn't make sense to them, and/or is not what they want to hear, so appealing to their bigoted ideas about Islam and TST is probably the only way to get through to them.
Does Drummond share their bigotry? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But he does know how to talk to his pointy-headed audience in terms they'll understand. Too bad those are apparently the only terms.
I agree completely!
All they need to do is sell off a few Sacred Holy pope turds to pay for it. What, did you think they were going to flush the holy relics? They hoard everything.
I'm sure they have a few stray pieces of the OneTrueCross™️ that aren't doing anything.
An entire basilica filled with HOLY slivers.
No one really knows how much wealth and treasure the Vatican is hoarding in its vaults. Let them open up THOSE treasure troves to help out their religious schools. I'm betting they could fund all the religious schools their parishes could possibly want and still have enough left to feed every hungry person in the world.
I wonder if they hide more in their vaults or if the bulk of their riches is in real estate. They had literally millenia to buy land and build on it. Few countries confiscated it.
Real estate for sure, the stuff they bought millennia ago has to have appreciated. Rather like the vampires in literature, who are always wealthy.
Maybe both.
Maybe both.
They could build a OneTrueCross™️ Legos Vatican City with the all the HOLY slivers.
A friend of mine has seen three or four of Christ's foreskins. Apparently there are many more. A tribute to his regenerative powers.
One can never have enough foreskins.
And his apparent inability to recognize a certain type of sharp object. "Oh, now that's a very interesting little blade you've got there. Strikes me as vaguely familiar, I wonder where I've SEEN - !"
First, I'm really sorry you were on the receiving end of such hatred as a child. That kind of thing leaves deep scars. There's no excuse for it, from the pastor or from your so-called friend, especially from people who claim to follow a 'religion of love.'
I've always said you don't need an atheist to tell you what's wrong with religion, christianity in particular. All you have to do is ask someone from a different sect. Nobody is more vicious about christianity than other christians.
You're absolutely right, Laurn. They see enemies everywhere, and they're ready to take offense at the slightest thing. They're perpetual victims, which is why they stockpile guns, ready to 'defend' themselves at all times, including inside their own churches.
For what it's worth, I also grew up catholic. One of the big turning points for me was when one of the nuns at school told me point blank that my best friend who was a methodist was going to hell. Christopher Hitchens was right when he subtitled his book, God is Not Great, 'How Religion Ruins Everything.'
I've been to the vatican Museum, they stole the best of everything, and ocassionally let the paying public see a small portion of it (there are three different tours available, there's so much swag).
"the Oklahoma Supreme Court today ruled 7-1"
Who's the 1? Did Alito sneak into the court and vote?
State Sponsored Satanism. A.k.a. the Beelzebubbas of Oklahoma.
Blind pig finds acorn, stopped clock reads correctly for a minute......
Actually, I think it's a bit better than that. AG Drummond sure sounds as though he's serious about State / Church separation, and his statements show that. The question now becomes whether or not Governor Stitt tries to subvert his AG's action.
A chunk of me is thrilled about this decision. Another chunk smells a pissing contest about to begin.
Real Christians should be for church/state separation. This current bout of theological fascism is clearly not for the benefit of the religious, it's for the control of the country.
Seems to me that there are more than a few Christians who are very much FOR State / Church separation. Mostly, I suspect it's the Christian Nationalists, the Reconstructionists, and others like them that want to see the Establishment Clause erased from the Constitution.
The AG seems to have been against this, at least in part, because he isn't Catholic. If the charter school were of the evangelical stripe, he may have been a little less zealous in his defense of the constitution.
Some of them are:
State Question 790
Result Votes Percentage
No 809,254 57.12%
Yes 607,482 42.88%
https://ballotpedia.org/Oklahoma_Public_Money_for_Religious_Purposes,_State_Question_790_(2016)
That's a pretty decisive defeat. I doubt Stitt was in the governor's office when it happened, though. Would be nice to see a repeat of that referendum in the here and now if necessary, if for no other reason than to rub salt in the wound! 😈
I wonder. Did Drummond objected to a religious charter school or to a catholic charter school. His remarks about sharia and Satanists schools are not the sign of an open mind.
Hard to tell. It's unclear whether the "oh no, Satanists" argument he gives in public is his real concern, or if he supports separation in general and he keeps bringing up Muslims and Satanists because he knows that will resonate better with citizens.
I guess it doesn't matter. Whatever his motivation, a 7-1 decision by the State Supreme Court means the result is not just one AG's personal bigotries or ideology.
🎯👍
I thought the exact same thing..... makes me think if the high school were going to be a Baptist High School that he would have supported it.... my bet is Drummond is Baptist. He only threw in the bullshit about Sharia law and Satanists to cover his ass so that he wouldn't get any blowback from his fellow christains for fighting against the funding of the Catholic School to begin with.
In this case though, the blind pig has found a truffle.😇
Good. Public funds should be reserved to schools who follow secular and non discriminatory laws. You want to send your children to a private school ? Crachez au bassinet* or find a scholarship.
* French saying du jour.
Being parents that sent our two children to catholic schools grades 1-12, we still are glad this ruling was rendered. Our daughter is a teacher, not in Oklahoma, but we can see how much decreased funding for public schools would damage public education in America. Also, the fact that many, but not all, families that would get $ from vouchers the state taxpayers would fund (not sure if that is what this program would do) send their children to sectarian schools (see Missouri ) and apparently can already afford to do so. But they would still take public $ to pay for their kid’s education. Doesn’t sound fair to me. We’re glad we could afford our kid’s education but would not have taken $ from public schools to do it.
If you want me to pay for your Catholic school out of my money? H NO!!!
Wow! Shocking!
I suspect some impeachment hearings to commence.
Of course they're going to call them "activists judges," and claim "I didn't vote for them."
Or just hold out for when the fanatics on the USSC fast track this to the bench
That too. There's no reason for them not to attempt to remove judges they don't like in the time.
Although... The more laws they can get shot down and sent before the US Supreme Corrupt - sorry Court - the more likely something will get through. Especially with the court stacked against the American citizens.
I posted less than two hours ago about how religious organizations pretty much never do a good job of policing themselves and somehow here we are again. The RCC in particular has had numerous problems in the after school area that should, by rights, prevent its leadership from being within 500 yards of anyone under the age of 18 and now they think they should be allowed to run a school?!?!?
The whole point of this school is pushing a religious agenda on kids before they're old enough to start poking at the obvious holes in the whole concept. The RCC also, since we're here, wants to have other people pay for the privilege of pushing said agenda, rather than dig into its own extensive coffers. I don't even live in Oklahoma and I find this to be offensive and unreasonable; so far as I can determine all the taxpayer gets here is the proverbial shaft. Thankfully, AG Drummond got his way, at least for now.
Here's hoping against hope this fails to make it to SCOTUS. We all know what they're going to do.
Well, it is supposed to be a virtual school so they might not have gotten within 500 yards of any kids.
If one wants to send their child to a religious school, they should pay for it themselves or seek help from the religious organization sponsoring the school.
Or rich right wing benefactors that contribute millions to MAGA campaigns, they’d have a few bucks to spare , don’t you think
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/52d0b1e0d25d71aa912c025ddb135b33d983a5e566386f03878ed53f193f4c7e.jpg
Those people are getting ripped off. I'll give you an acre for $100.
Damn. Some people will just believe ANYTHING.
Their indoctrination is specifically tailored so that things like this CAN happen.
A square meter? Can’t be American con artists.
One tiny step forward. Let's see if the SCOTUS takes it ten steps back. Again!