Historically the state version of xianity has almost always been funded by tax payer money. In app 2005 other superstitious organisations got some funding as well. Based on number of members and no harassement of former members was allowed. That is what JW disliked, challenged and won.
Seems to be a bit of a European thing. I think Germany does something similar. A hangover from the time when there was only room for one religion in your country.
Indeed, Norway is a primo example of why religions should not get one red cent of taxpayer money for anything. Even with a set of qualifying rules in place that ALL MUST FOLLOW, there will always be those few sects that will "religious belief" their way around such requirements. And there will always be a high-level court somewhere that will buy into their specious spectral evidence arguments.
Well let's make religious self-sufficiency the *new* tradition. I'm mad as hell about all the state taxpayer money my home state of Florida is bending over backwards to shower on churches and other religious organizations that have proven time and again that they WILL NOT follow the rules and conditions applied to receiving that money.
Problem is, they are shunned by friends, relatives, and lose their social support system. For some I imagine it's a relief, for others maybe not so much. It's a problem with leaving any cult. You end up alone often.
As someone who grew up a JW, I honestly can't believe the country has to continue to subsidize religions. I am not sure what the process is in Norway, but it is insane that the country provides money to religions. Additionally, the facts are the facts and the JW Org globally but specifically in Norway in this case absolutely breaks the rules, and family members or friends who are shunned or disfellowshiped do experience psychological trauma, especially if they are children and grew up in the cult. It's appalling that the Supreme Court of the country ruled for the JW's in this case. Like you said, for a group that doesn't want to be part of the world, they sure love the benefits being part of the world gives them. I hope the citizens of Norway stand up and demand that churches stop getting paid, tax breaks is one thing, but whenever you can monetize members it leads to so much corruption and I'm sure the money would be better spent elsewhere.
My guess would be that it's all part of the societal trope that all religions are somehow good and are a positive influence on society. It's a reductive and naive point of view which fails to notice actual activities by religious organizations, whether it's the Catholics and child sexual abuse or Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipping and shunning members who don't meet their standards. Norway, like the US and so many other nations, needs to shed the naivete and recognize the minus-side of the religious ledger, and having done so, take appropriate action. I've posted this before, and it bears repeating:
"My guess would be that it's all part of the societal trope that all religions are somehow good and are a positive influence on society. "
One of the things that the UK National Secular Society is pushing for is the removal of "advancement of religion" as an accepted charitable purpose. There are some significantly nasty groups from all religions who use the category to gain charitable status.
Sorry, but I don't believe we will do that. I and some more will, but not "we the people". You know "It is so nice to visit a church at xmas time", right? Sorry.
"The majority also said that an adult who’s disfellowshipped isn’t really suffering because they’ll still be a member of broader society."
Except that this is a society that they more or less rejected in favor of their more insular group. Being expelled from the Jehovah's Witnesses essentially means being left out in the cold with no societal relationship. I would be genuinely surprised if suffering were NOT an immediate consequence of the JW's shunning practices.
Frankly I find Norway's Court decision in this matter to be puzzling and illogical. I don't believe they have a full understanding of what the Jehovah's Witnesses are about, nor of the consequences of their practices.
"persons who choose not to live by the moral standards of the Bible"? I'd be surprised if anyone on the planet could define those. Perhaps those standards are exemplified in the Old Testament's Book of Numbers 31, vv 17, 18 with the ancient Israelites being commanded by their god Yahweh:
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man".
If they're going to harp ad nauseum about moral standards, there are only three that are worth bothering about, IMO: Don't kill anybody, don't steal other people's stuff/spouses, and just generally try to NOT be an asshole to others who have to deal with you.
Norwegian here. I am really disapointet that 1: We are still funding religion (there is a long story behind that practice, but it is still stupid.) And 2: That JV won this fight.
The funding of other peoples superstisjon should be stopped, especially when some sects usw that money to shun and/or harass former members. Mybe I have to become a politician again.
All I know about the JWs is that a kid on my son's baseball team was kicked out of his parents home because he got one ear pierced. He was not allowed to visit for a long time. I saw his mom at a game and asked her what the deal was. She said that until he acted within their values, he was not welcome in their home. His siblings were not allowed to communicate with him.
I can't imagine any situation that would make me disown my own child. Even if one of them did something awful, I couldn't stop loving them and supporting them. In private I might read them the riot act, but kick them out? Never.
I forgot. When I was in elementary school I went over to a JWs house to play. I had to pee and the mom wouldn't let me in the house because I wasn't one of them. She wouldn't even let me call my mom. She finally agreed to call my mom to come get me. I may have wet my pants.
She wouldn't let you, as a child, into their house to use the bathroom? If she was that afraid of your non-JW cooties, why let her children play with you at all? People are fucked up.
Interestingly, a few years ago in Texas, I had to show ID, because everybody in Texas who buys an alcoholic drink needed to show ID. Some idiot passed a law requiring that back when I was working field service.
Whether that law remains in force to this day, I don't know.
That second sentence has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard come out of the mouth of a United States Attorney General ("Acting," like Blanche is, or otherwise).
I like that the church attendance here are this low. Even though I have been in the same church twice this year. Once when a friend got married and then when a friends father died.
I’d much rather that governments not be funding religion at all. But, if it does fund religion, then I’m in favor of every whacko religion being eligible. Sunlight being the best disinfectant, etc.
Some years back a southern state backed off a plan to shift state monies to religious schools (somehow, someway) once it was brought to Republican attention that Muslim schools would be eligible. Not to imply that Islam is any more whacko than, oh, Christianity.
I have been to the Church of Elvis. Seriously. It's a storefront only. You can put coins in an old stamp machine and get a wedding certificate. I have a friend who got married there. I think it was 50¢.
A better thing to ask is why does Norway fund religious organizations at all?
Historically the state version of xianity has almost always been funded by tax payer money. In app 2005 other superstitious organisations got some funding as well. Based on number of members and no harassement of former members was allowed. That is what JW disliked, challenged and won.
Seems to be a bit of a European thing. I think Germany does something similar. A hangover from the time when there was only room for one religion in your country.
My guess it was all cool and stuff before they became more diverse and now they’re in a pickle.
A relic of the cave man days?
Indeed, Norway is a primo example of why religions should not get one red cent of taxpayer money for anything. Even with a set of qualifying rules in place that ALL MUST FOLLOW, there will always be those few sects that will "religious belief" their way around such requirements. And there will always be a high-level court somewhere that will buy into their specious spectral evidence arguments.
Not one krone should be given to any religion of any kind. Let them fund themselves.
Ben Franklin offered that opinion over 200 years ago, and I think it's as valid today as it was back then.
Valid and vital. People who are not members of a religion should not have any of their tax money going to support other people's superstition.
Please stop using logic and reason here. It really hurts the JW's side of things.
Apologies. It's a fatal flaw in my character. 😉
Agreed, but that has to include the treatment of the "Folke kirken" (≈ peoples church. Not that the churches are much in use anymore).
Agreed. Some of us don’t want that our money support religous clubs, but most people argues “But but it is TRADITION”.
Well let's make religious self-sufficiency the *new* tradition. I'm mad as hell about all the state taxpayer money my home state of Florida is bending over backwards to shower on churches and other religious organizations that have proven time and again that they WILL NOT follow the rules and conditions applied to receiving that money.
I really appreciated your multiple comments today. Thank you.
Dear religious people: please shun me. I would really appreciate it, thanks.
Maybe this will work as a way to get rid of them without having to come right out and tell them to piss off.
Problem is, they are shunned by friends, relatives, and lose their social support system. For some I imagine it's a relief, for others maybe not so much. It's a problem with leaving any cult. You end up alone often.
As someone who grew up a JW, I honestly can't believe the country has to continue to subsidize religions. I am not sure what the process is in Norway, but it is insane that the country provides money to religions. Additionally, the facts are the facts and the JW Org globally but specifically in Norway in this case absolutely breaks the rules, and family members or friends who are shunned or disfellowshiped do experience psychological trauma, especially if they are children and grew up in the cult. It's appalling that the Supreme Court of the country ruled for the JW's in this case. Like you said, for a group that doesn't want to be part of the world, they sure love the benefits being part of the world gives them. I hope the citizens of Norway stand up and demand that churches stop getting paid, tax breaks is one thing, but whenever you can monetize members it leads to so much corruption and I'm sure the money would be better spent elsewhere.
My guess would be that it's all part of the societal trope that all religions are somehow good and are a positive influence on society. It's a reductive and naive point of view which fails to notice actual activities by religious organizations, whether it's the Catholics and child sexual abuse or Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipping and shunning members who don't meet their standards. Norway, like the US and so many other nations, needs to shed the naivete and recognize the minus-side of the religious ledger, and having done so, take appropriate action. I've posted this before, and it bears repeating:
𝐼𝑓 𝑤𝑒’𝑟𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑔𝑟𝑜𝑤 𝑢𝑝 𝑎𝑠 𝑎 𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑒𝑠, 𝑤𝑒 𝑛𝑒𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑎𝑑𝑑𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑠𝑦𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑚𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑖𝑛𝑓𝑎𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑧𝑒 𝑢𝑠.
-- TheraminTrees
"My guess would be that it's all part of the societal trope that all religions are somehow good and are a positive influence on society. "
One of the things that the UK National Secular Society is pushing for is the removal of "advancement of religion" as an accepted charitable purpose. There are some significantly nasty groups from all religions who use the category to gain charitable status.
Sorry, but I don't believe we will do that. I and some more will, but not "we the people". You know "It is so nice to visit a church at xmas time", right? Sorry.
Christmas time is the middle of summer here. Most people go to the beach. :)
Sounds lovely!
𝐹𝑜𝑟 𝑎 𝑔𝑟𝑜𝑢𝑝 𝑜𝑓 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤ℎ𝑜 𝑤𝑎𝑛𝑡 𝑛𝑜𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡𝑜 𝑑𝑜 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑔𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑟𝑒𝑑𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑦 𝑢𝑝𝑠𝑒𝑡 𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑒𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎 𝑔𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑡 ℎ𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑜𝑢𝑡.
Which sect are we talking about here? It seems like they all do this.
"The majority also said that an adult who’s disfellowshipped isn’t really suffering because they’ll still be a member of broader society."
Except that this is a society that they more or less rejected in favor of their more insular group. Being expelled from the Jehovah's Witnesses essentially means being left out in the cold with no societal relationship. I would be genuinely surprised if suffering were NOT an immediate consequence of the JW's shunning practices.
Frankly I find Norway's Court decision in this matter to be puzzling and illogical. I don't believe they have a full understanding of what the Jehovah's Witnesses are about, nor of the consequences of their practices.
I find it extremly stupid, puzzling and wrong. I really don't want my tax money to go to mean organisations and superstition.
Religious practices that include shunning and disfellowshipping legitimize Mean Girl behavior.
" is known to the members when they join"
Kids of JWs don't "join". And they are too young for informed consent.
"persons who choose not to live by the moral standards of the Bible"? I'd be surprised if anyone on the planet could define those. Perhaps those standards are exemplified in the Old Testament's Book of Numbers 31, vv 17, 18 with the ancient Israelites being commanded by their god Yahweh:
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man".
The JWs are cafeteria Christians, just like every other religious organization. They take what they want and leave the rest, as it comes to the bible.
If they're going to harp ad nauseum about moral standards, there are only three that are worth bothering about, IMO: Don't kill anybody, don't steal other people's stuff/spouses, and just generally try to NOT be an asshole to others who have to deal with you.
It's their country and the Norwegians can do as they please. Personally, I don't think government has any business back-stopping anyone's religion.
Norwegian here. I am really disapointet that 1: We are still funding religion (there is a long story behind that practice, but it is still stupid.) And 2: That JV won this fight.
The funding of other peoples superstisjon should be stopped, especially when some sects usw that money to shun and/or harass former members. Mybe I have to become a politician again.
The struggle never ends.
What a strange law, giving money to churches.
All I know about the JWs is that a kid on my son's baseball team was kicked out of his parents home because he got one ear pierced. He was not allowed to visit for a long time. I saw his mom at a game and asked her what the deal was. She said that until he acted within their values, he was not welcome in their home. His siblings were not allowed to communicate with him.
I can't imagine any situation that would make me disown my own child. Even if one of them did something awful, I couldn't stop loving them and supporting them. In private I might read them the riot act, but kick them out? Never.
I forgot. When I was in elementary school I went over to a JWs house to play. I had to pee and the mom wouldn't let me in the house because I wasn't one of them. She wouldn't even let me call my mom. She finally agreed to call my mom to come get me. I may have wet my pants.
She wouldn't let you, as a child, into their house to use the bathroom? If she was that afraid of your non-JW cooties, why let her children play with you at all? People are fucked up.
Well, JW's aren't the most rational and science-understanding people I have met. And I have met some. Husband had som relatives from that cult.
https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mkxeyrb3y22t
This is stupid nonsense
No, Hot Toddy. You show ID in a bar, not a restaurant.
Another liquid lunch for you? Oh wait, that's Hegseth and Patel (whom you defended on the excess drinking by Bug Eyes).
I haven't showed an ID in a bar for 40 years.
I don't even have to show my card to get the old age pensioners discount anymore.:)
Me neither. I believe it is necause of the gray hair and the wrinkles.
Interestingly, a few years ago in Texas, I had to show ID, because everybody in Texas who buys an alcoholic drink needed to show ID. Some idiot passed a law requiring that back when I was working field service.
Whether that law remains in force to this day, I don't know.
Trump promotes this idiot to be Attorney General (on a temporary basis, anyway) and yet has the nerve to call OTHER people "low IQ."
It IS crazy. It's also INSANE! 😝
Blanche is insane in the membrane.
whatever it is, it burns....
The stupid usually does.
That second sentence has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard come out of the mouth of a United States Attorney General ("Acting," like Blanche is, or otherwise).
The guidelines for freedom of religion and belief are interesting - https://www.regjeringen.no/en/documents/norwegian-guidelines-for-freedom-of-religion-or-belief/id2983169/?ch=3
One has to wonder, how many religions/denominations decided not to apply for grants because they have to be nice to LGBT people.
one also has to note that Norway has one of the lowest church attendances in the world, at 5%.
I like that the church attendance here are this low. Even though I have been in the same church twice this year. Once when a friend got married and then when a friends father died.
Take away the government funding and see how long they last. Must be God's Will (tm) if they falter/fail.
Yeh, me wish our government would stop founding peoples religious fantasies.
What a terrible policy. Sadly this country funds these cults and hate groups too.
Time for a word from Mr. Franklin again:
"𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘢 𝘳𝘦𝘭𝘪𝘨𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴 𝘨𝘰𝘰𝘥, 𝘐 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘤𝘦𝘪𝘷𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵 𝘪𝘵𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘧; 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘪𝘵 𝘥𝘰𝘦𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵 𝘪𝘵𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘧, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘎𝘰𝘥 𝘥𝘰𝘦𝘴 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘵𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘴𝘶𝘱𝘱𝘰𝘳𝘵 𝘪𝘵 𝘴𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘪𝘵𝘴 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘣𝘭𝘪𝘨𝘦𝘥 𝘵𝘰 𝘤𝘢𝘭𝘭 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘩𝘦𝘭𝘱 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘪𝘷𝘪𝘭 𝘱𝘰𝘸𝘦𝘳, '𝘵𝘪𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘪𝘨𝘯, 𝘐 𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘩𝘦𝘯𝘥, 𝘰𝘧 𝘪𝘵𝘴 𝘣𝘦𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢 𝘣𝘢𝘥 𝘰𝘯𝘦."
It seems there are an awful lot of bad religions in Norway.
I’d much rather that governments not be funding religion at all. But, if it does fund religion, then I’m in favor of every whacko religion being eligible. Sunlight being the best disinfectant, etc.
Some years back a southern state backed off a plan to shift state monies to religious schools (somehow, someway) once it was brought to Republican attention that Muslim schools would be eligible. Not to imply that Islam is any more whacko than, oh, Christianity.
Or Mormonism or Scientology or Jedisim or...!
Dudeism.
https://dudeism.com/
Ummm ... my pocket? 😁
I have been to the Church of Elvis. Seriously. It's a storefront only. You can put coins in an old stamp machine and get a wedding certificate. I have a friend who got married there. I think it was 50¢.
https://youtu.be/gCDoUfHmUGI