Sometimes, you find yourself in a place where you don't agree with management but it's a job and you need the money. I am retired now but I recall the days when I had to bite my tongue and stay in positions where they had the most toxic leadership. The alternative was losing it all.
You can have a belief in a god and still be for separation of church and state, the latter is in our constitution. People can change so I don’t think it’s above board to find out if one’s ED has had a change of heart and mind regarding woo science. However, it might have been prudent to check beforehand
Yeah some of them stretch out the tiniest bit of truth until it’s unrecognizable 😅. I just ignore them or switch to another practitioner if they get too looney. Using a mineral sunscreen might be a little better for you, but the sunscreen also doesn’t cause the cancer 🤣. Also, always get your mammograms! I get a mammogram, ultrasound, and MRI because of family history etc. The mammogram and breast MRI scenario was definitely designed by a man of course. Medieval torture devices for biopsies.
(As far as mammograms, it seems to involve the word "radiation". Is there anything in our modern world, individually or collectively, that DOESN'T "radiate" in some form?! I'm torn between thinking he can't be that ignorant...and hoping that he is.)
Definitely. I had an acupuncture therapist tell me she didn’t get mammograms once and I tried to plead with her to go. As long as they perform the task at hand well (in my case acupuncture) I don’t care about their personal beliefs. If they are telling you not to get a mammogram, run! 🤣
100%, Linda. And not just among the fringe professions.....
We no longer have MDs in the rural south, and haven't for several years. (Likely since around 2021/2, even w/o Trump. But little doubt because of Trump.)
A review for the last actual "MD doctor" (and not Nurse Practitioner) in the nearby practice I visit indicates that she had called Covid a hoax, and that Covid would "go away after the (2020) election." Our experience with her and my Dad were much the same BS as that review. An absolutely HORRIBLE doctor, and human being.
I would want to understand more about her beliefs. Some of these wellness gurus can be just as toxic and extreme as religious folks are, and others not so much. Is she an anti-vaccine and pseudoscience believer or just thinks homeopathic and/or eastern medicine can be combined with western medicine? At different points in my life I have utilized eastern medicine in combination with western medicine (acupuncture, naturopathic practitioner etc.). For those of us who struggle with a chronic pain condition (in my case endometriosis) I have found many of these therapies helpful where western medicine falls short (for women that’s all the time).
My first thoughts as regards all of this are: Exactly WHAT was the vetting process that Ms. Howells went through, prior to her hiring as Executive Director, and WHY didn't the SSA hire from inside their organization? I would think that, for such a critical position, someone who was already familiar with the day-to-day operation of the Secular Student Alliance would be preferable to hiring from outside the organization. That doesn't even mention just WHERE Ms. Howells came from.
"Elena worked in higher education administration for more than 14 years, most recently serving as Associate Vice President for Student Affairs & Registration at a small, nonprofit health sciences institution."
I was thinking along the lines of "The Bobby Brainworms Whale Head Chainsawing, Dead Bear Cub Abandoning, Coke Sniffing Off Toilet Seats School of Mediciney Sounding Stuff, Bait Shop and Screen Door Company".
This problem, like every problem that the atheist community has, comes down to what atheism means.
Some people will say, reasonably, that it means not believing in God. This group should have no problem with this executive director.
To me this is too simple, and unhelpful. It is not so easy to separate the idea of God from other ideas that are not evidence-based, whether they are ghosts, astrology, elves, zombies, or homeopathy.
I don't really think these ideas can be separated from the idea of God, and wouldn't include people who believe in those as atheists. Whether they are secular enough for this position is another question, and I think it will be answered in time as these things often do.
I suspect that many folks here would agree that the most complete knowledge by the human mind indicates two options for a physical system composed of matter: perfect order or total chaos. And while each human doesn't see this so-called "perfection" in their own lives, they would surely be willing admit to a human inability to grasp the same for the totality of humanity, and even non-human life.
In my teens I called myself an atheist, but seeing some degree of repeatable evidence of what is widely interpreted as "order" indicates that "total chaos" doesn't exist (and not simply because it's semantically redundant.)
I believe in a controlling force, but for maintaining balance instead of good or evil. (And NOT a being.) For me, it's the concept of a "responsive God" that I find offensive. Why would an omniscient being require information in the form of prayer? The concept of God as a being seems tragically pandering to me, as if man can't grasp anything beyond themselves. (Which seems to be generally true.)
You don't obfuscate your work history behind vague language on your resume unless you know it'd be disqualifying if you went into detail, and the dishonesty alone should be a dealbreaker for a top management position like this. It's as good as a flashing neon sign that reads "I'm going to do misconduct." If she stays on the job, sooner or later she's going to get caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Calling it now.
Then there's, y'know, all the quackery she's spent years enabling. Woo-peddlers have no business running organizations which are otherwise dedicated to promoting a society that is 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦 grounded in reality. Plus... this shít isn't exactly harmless. People die because they've been hoodwinked into trusting chiropractors and homeopaths and suchlike over real doctors, so as far as I'm concerned, because she's helped to run institutions cranking out more of these fücking cranks, she's got blood on her hands... and 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 alone should 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 be disqualifying.
Is Ms Howells a capable administrator? Is she able to keep her personal beliefs separate from the purpose of the SSA? If the answer is yes to both questions, then there isn't much of a problem with her appointment. After all, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods, and secularism is just about keeping religion separate from government.
A woman in my humanist group who was an atheist worked for mainline christian church office for many years and even recently retired. She did have to hide her non-belief from her bosses but she enjoyed the work.
I do think they need to find an ED but in the meantime I am not troubled by Howell being in charge for now since has education admin experience. Unless she wants to invite RFK jr. to speak at the next SSA conference.....
Sometimes, you find yourself in a place where you don't agree with management but it's a job and you need the money. I am retired now but I recall the days when I had to bite my tongue and stay in positions where they had the most toxic leadership. The alternative was losing it all.
As always, you know what they call medicine that is proven to actually be efficacious? Medicine.
The same cannot be said of quackery, no matter what guise it hides under.
You can have a belief in a god and still be for separation of church and state, the latter is in our constitution. People can change so I don’t think it’s above board to find out if one’s ED has had a change of heart and mind regarding woo science. However, it might have been prudent to check beforehand
My past chiropractor actually seemed to believe that "skin cancer was caused BY sunscreen, rather than by the sun."
But after every time inconsistency, his views changed a bit.
He also told his patients that mammograms caused cancer.
But darned if if he wasn't the best chiropractor I ever visited.....
My son in law is a board-certified physician who has performed over 25,000 cataract surgeries, and he gets regular chiropractic adjustments.
Ben Carson is a world famous neurosurgeon and also a Christian nationalist.
Yeah some of them stretch out the tiniest bit of truth until it’s unrecognizable 😅. I just ignore them or switch to another practitioner if they get too looney. Using a mineral sunscreen might be a little better for you, but the sunscreen also doesn’t cause the cancer 🤣. Also, always get your mammograms! I get a mammogram, ultrasound, and MRI because of family history etc. The mammogram and breast MRI scenario was definitely designed by a man of course. Medieval torture devices for biopsies.
He can say whatever crazy shit he wants....
Until trusting people get hurt as the result.
(As far as mammograms, it seems to involve the word "radiation". Is there anything in our modern world, individually or collectively, that DOESN'T "radiate" in some form?! I'm torn between thinking he can't be that ignorant...and hoping that he is.)
Definitely. I had an acupuncture therapist tell me she didn’t get mammograms once and I tried to plead with her to go. As long as they perform the task at hand well (in my case acupuncture) I don’t care about their personal beliefs. If they are telling you not to get a mammogram, run! 🤣
100%, Linda. And not just among the fringe professions.....
We no longer have MDs in the rural south, and haven't for several years. (Likely since around 2021/2, even w/o Trump. But little doubt because of Trump.)
A review for the last actual "MD doctor" (and not Nurse Practitioner) in the nearby practice I visit indicates that she had called Covid a hoax, and that Covid would "go away after the (2020) election." Our experience with her and my Dad were much the same BS as that review. An absolutely HORRIBLE doctor, and human being.
Kind of like saying someone is the best fortune teller you've ever worked with
Yes and no, Zach.
I was born with scoliosis, and had a 30-foot fall in my teens.
I know a bit about pain and spines after >50 years of constant pain.
https://ibb.co/gM1W5hmB
I would want to understand more about her beliefs. Some of these wellness gurus can be just as toxic and extreme as religious folks are, and others not so much. Is she an anti-vaccine and pseudoscience believer or just thinks homeopathic and/or eastern medicine can be combined with western medicine? At different points in my life I have utilized eastern medicine in combination with western medicine (acupuncture, naturopathic practitioner etc.). For those of us who struggle with a chronic pain condition (in my case endometriosis) I have found many of these therapies helpful where western medicine falls short (for women that’s all the time).
My first thoughts as regards all of this are: Exactly WHAT was the vetting process that Ms. Howells went through, prior to her hiring as Executive Director, and WHY didn't the SSA hire from inside their organization? I would think that, for such a critical position, someone who was already familiar with the day-to-day operation of the Secular Student Alliance would be preferable to hiring from outside the organization. That doesn't even mention just WHERE Ms. Howells came from.
Lucy? You got some 'splainin' to do!
"Elena worked in higher education administration for more than 14 years, most recently serving as Associate Vice President for Student Affairs & Registration at a small, nonprofit health sciences institution."
I was thinking along the lines of "The Bobby Brainworms Whale Head Chainsawing, Dead Bear Cub Abandoning, Coke Sniffing Off Toilet Seats School of Mediciney Sounding Stuff, Bait Shop and Screen Door Company".
Sounds like I was close, though.
If it quacks like a quack...
Hoo boy
Anyone related to Thurston has got to be at least a little suspect./s
Are you suggesting that she should avoid 3 hour boat tours? 🏝️
3 hour tour...
Those guys sure packed a lot of stuff for a 3 hour tour.
This problem, like every problem that the atheist community has, comes down to what atheism means.
Some people will say, reasonably, that it means not believing in God. This group should have no problem with this executive director.
To me this is too simple, and unhelpful. It is not so easy to separate the idea of God from other ideas that are not evidence-based, whether they are ghosts, astrology, elves, zombies, or homeopathy.
I don't really think these ideas can be separated from the idea of God, and wouldn't include people who believe in those as atheists. Whether they are secular enough for this position is another question, and I think it will be answered in time as these things often do.
Good point.
I suspect that many folks here would agree that the most complete knowledge by the human mind indicates two options for a physical system composed of matter: perfect order or total chaos. And while each human doesn't see this so-called "perfection" in their own lives, they would surely be willing admit to a human inability to grasp the same for the totality of humanity, and even non-human life.
In my teens I called myself an atheist, but seeing some degree of repeatable evidence of what is widely interpreted as "order" indicates that "total chaos" doesn't exist (and not simply because it's semantically redundant.)
I believe in a controlling force, but for maintaining balance instead of good or evil. (And NOT a being.) For me, it's the concept of a "responsive God" that I find offensive. Why would an omniscient being require information in the form of prayer? The concept of God as a being seems tragically pandering to me, as if man can't grasp anything beyond themselves. (Which seems to be generally true.)
"𝘐'𝘮 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘴𝘢𝘺𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘴𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 𝘧𝘪𝘳𝘦 𝘩𝘦𝘳."
I am. They should fire her.
You don't obfuscate your work history behind vague language on your resume unless you know it'd be disqualifying if you went into detail, and the dishonesty alone should be a dealbreaker for a top management position like this. It's as good as a flashing neon sign that reads "I'm going to do misconduct." If she stays on the job, sooner or later she's going to get caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Calling it now.
Then there's, y'know, all the quackery she's spent years enabling. Woo-peddlers have no business running organizations which are otherwise dedicated to promoting a society that is 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦 grounded in reality. Plus... this shít isn't exactly harmless. People die because they've been hoodwinked into trusting chiropractors and homeopaths and suchlike over real doctors, so as far as I'm concerned, because she's helped to run institutions cranking out more of these fücking cranks, she's got blood on her hands... and 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 alone should 𝘢𝘭𝘴𝘰 be disqualifying.
Yet another data point showing that atheism ≠ skepticism. Just ask Bill Maher.
Is Ms Howells a capable administrator? Is she able to keep her personal beliefs separate from the purpose of the SSA? If the answer is yes to both questions, then there isn't much of a problem with her appointment. After all, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods, and secularism is just about keeping religion separate from government.
A woman in my humanist group who was an atheist worked for mainline christian church office for many years and even recently retired. She did have to hide her non-belief from her bosses but she enjoyed the work.
I do think they need to find an ED but in the meantime I am not troubled by Howell being in charge for now since has education admin experience. Unless she wants to invite RFK jr. to speak at the next SSA conference.....