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avis piscivorus's avatar

π‘‡β„Žπ‘’ 𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑦’𝑠 π‘“π‘™π‘Žπ‘” π‘π‘œπ‘™π‘–π‘π‘¦ π‘€π‘Žπ‘  π‘π‘Ÿπ‘’π‘‘π‘‘π‘¦ π‘π‘Ÿπ‘œπ‘Žπ‘‘, π‘œπ‘π‘’π‘› π‘‘π‘œ β€œπ‘Žπ‘›π‘¦ π‘π‘’π‘Ÿπ‘ π‘œπ‘›, π‘”π‘Ÿπ‘œπ‘’π‘, π‘œπ‘Ÿ π‘œπ‘Ÿπ‘”π‘Žπ‘›π‘–π‘§π‘Žπ‘‘π‘–π‘œπ‘› π‘‘β„Žπ‘Žπ‘‘ π‘π‘Ÿπ‘œπ‘šπ‘œπ‘‘π‘’π‘  π‘π‘’π‘›π‘’π‘£π‘œπ‘™π‘’π‘›π‘π‘’, π‘‘π‘œπ‘™π‘’π‘Ÿπ‘Žπ‘›π‘π‘’, π‘Žπ‘›π‘‘ π‘‘π‘–π‘£π‘’π‘Ÿπ‘ π‘–π‘‘π‘¦.”

So most christian groups should be excluded.

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GMT's avatar

The christian religion is frightening and it is one of the primary roots of evil.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Christians do not play well with others.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

No, they don't. They want it to be THEIR ball, THEIR bat, and THEIR game, and if it isn't, they're going to POUT and HOLD THEIR BREATH UNTIL THEY TURN BLUE!!!

Or until they get their way, which happens entirely too often.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

This is Cartman saying β€œScrew you guys, I’m going home.”

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Straw's avatar

Absolutely. I find it to be one of those strange USAian hobbies.

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Richard S. Russell's avatar

Hell, they don't play particularly well with other CHRISTIANS!

For notable instance, as Wikipedia informs us, "The Thirty Years' War, fought primarily in Central Europe between 1618 and 1648, was one of the most destructive conflicts in human history. An estimated 4.5 to 8 million soldiers and civilians died from the effects of battle, famine, or disease, with parts of Germany reporting population declines of over 50%. ...

"Its causes derived from religious conflict within the Holy Roman Empire, sparked by the 16th-century Reformation. The 1555 Peace of Augsburg attempted to resolve this by dividing the Empire into Catholic and Lutheran states, but was later destabilised by the expansion of Protestantism beyond these boundaries. Combined with disagreements over the limits of imperial authority, religion was thus an important factor in starting the war."

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

The bloodshed started the moment there was two christian sects.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

380 CE. That was when Theodosius I made Nicene Christianity (Catholicism) the state religion of Rome. Shit got real from then on.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

It started before that with Gnosticism against "standard" Christianity.

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Crowscage's avatar

It started the moment the christains were allowed the latitude to tear down statues and temples of other gods without fear of consequences.

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GMT's avatar

The christian religion is frightening and it is one of the primary roots of evil.

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

And they're not supposed to play with themselves. Who's left?

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Straw's avatar

Hahaha. Oh, hmmm. Hahaha.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Included other christians.

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PhillyT's avatar

I told a family member who was preaching to me last year around the holidays, who was so sure that their way of Christianity was right, "When you all figure it out amongst the 45k different variations and sects then we can have a conversation."...

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GMT's avatar

The christian religion is frightening and it is one of the primary roots of evil.

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Straw's avatar

I imagine wars and killings being in place before religions grew up.

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GMT's avatar

Nope- always has been some nonsensical BS used for the reason to kill β€œthe other”

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

"Free speech means tolerating speech you may not like." I've been saying that, in one form or another, since long before I came out as an atheist, and it sure as hell applies here. If those flagpoles are on public land (and it's a slam-dunk that they are!), then they should be available to ANY person or group who wishes to put them to use, presuming that use is non-incendiary in its nature. Anyone who knows The Satanic Temple knows that, while their name may be problematic to some, their message and attitude are positive and respectful. Unfortunately, there are people out there who hear the word, "Satan" and lose their shit, regardless of the message content.

And while we're at it, if TST can't press that space into their service, that hunk of rock with the 10Cs on it needs to GO, and I mean NOW!

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Sarah Longstaff's avatar

For us secular people, sometimes we forget how much religious people put on their religion as their whole identity. My daughter had a Catholic tutor for an English project she was working on--looking at redemption arcs in popular culture. She was into the TV shows Lucifer and Supernatural, and wanted to learn more about the character in Christian mythology. "He's not a fictional character!" the tutor insisted, upset. "Um, okay," my daughter and I said awkwardly. "For my project, though, that's what I'm looking at," my daughter said, "you know, like Darth Vader was redeemed in the Star Wars universe." The teacher was trying her best to stay impartial, I'll give her that, but isn't most of the Lucifer/Satan lore (she didn't like that word either) from that insufferable braggart Milton's Paradise Lost? It's not even in their Bible. Admittedly, I haven't read much of either the Bible or Paradise Lost, so I can't say for sure. But the reuse and retelling of fictional characters has gone on as long as humans have existed. It's all fan fiction and ret-conning.

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Stephen Brady's avatar

In 2 Corinthiens Satan is referred to as "the God of this world"... Something I am sure most modern Christians are loath to admit is in their inerrant Bible.

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Claudia's avatar

You are absolutely right, that freedom of speech does not only mean that you can say what you like, it also means that other people can say what they like.

But it seems increasingly obvious, that the concept of β€˜an inch for mee is also an inch for thee’ is unacceptable for many people. They seem to prefer β€˜an inch for thee, a kilometre for mee’.

And what’s worse, they don’t seem to comprehend that this is a real problem!

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oraxx's avatar

Given their relative body-counts in the Old Testament, I never understood how Satan came to be labeled as the bad guy. Neither God or Satan exist of course, but doesn't take much to get conservative Christians all stirred up when someone raises a flag that praises their imaginary friend's imaginary enemy.

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NOGODZ20's avatar
5hEdited

And the 10 people that Satan killed (the 7 sons and 3 daughters of Job) were killed with YHVHs permission and approval. Because that deity wanted to win a bet with his alleged archrival. And archrival whose opinion he valued.

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avis piscivorus's avatar

Those weren't even people , they were just Job's property.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

What's not usually mentioned is that Job, the most righteous man in the bible, owned slaves. His slaves were also killed, but since they were seen as property like cattle, they weren't given the status of Job's children as humans.

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Straw's avatar

I never understood how people could read that and still tell me that Jahve is good.

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Joe King's avatar

GMTA.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

The bible god was originally a Canaanite war/storm god. It's perfectly logic that he loves blood and death.

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NOGODZ20's avatar
3hEdited

YHVHs bastard son is no better. All that talk about β€œbeing washed in the blood of Jesus.” And Jesus is considered by xtians to be the β€œPrince of Peace” when Jesus himself said he DIDN’T come to bring peace to the earth.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

As it comes to that:

https://ibb.co/HDYKrzfx

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oraxx's avatar

God evidently had a better publicist.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Well, he DOES style himself as the "good guy," and because he controlled how the bible was published, Satan basically sucks hind tit in it. I think TST decided that Satan needed better representatives!

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Kukaan Ei MissÀÀn's avatar

It's an underestimate, there were around 20 million people alive at the time of teh Flud.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Flood? What flood?!? You mean there was a WORLDWIDE FLOOD??? [giggle!]

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Kukaan Ei MissÀÀn's avatar

"You mean there was a WORLDWIDE FLOOD"

Absolutely, though the Egyptians don't seem to have noticed. They were too busy building pyramids.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

🀣🀣🀣 Thanks for the good laugh! 🀣🀣🀣

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Joe King's avatar

The handful of deaths attributed to Satan were on direct orders from God. Something about a bet, IIRC.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

One also asks how any sort of wager can be made when one of the two parties involved is omniscient?

Xtians never think to ask that question when they read the Job story. Or had it read to them.

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Joe King's avatar

"Xtians never think" was all you needed to say.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

That's pretty much given. :)

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Kukaan Ei MissÀÀn's avatar

"One also asks how any sort of wager can be made when one of the two parties involved is omniscient?"

And given that an omniscient entity can have no free will.

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XJC's avatar

Omniscient AND omnipotent.

God leads a conflict-free non-existence. Except when he needed to overturn a rigged US presidential election. And when his NCAA Final Four brackets didn't win. And...

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Kukaan Ei MissÀÀn's avatar

"Omniscient AND omnipotent"

Let us say an omniscient entity exists, then at a causal nexus (a point at which alternatives exist, between which something with the attributes of personhood can freely choose) the entity would already know which alternative it chose.

This being so, it cannot be omnipotent. If it is omnipotent and can choose between the alternatives, then it cannot know which it chose and hence cannot be omniscient.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

So the apologist responds, "Okay, he's just really, REALLY powerful, see, and he knows a lot, and uh ..."

[groan!]

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

A bar bet. You know how those gods love to carouse and drink. Look at what a mess Valhalla is on a Saturday night.

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

Saturday night's alright for Ragnarok.

Get a little smiting in.

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Straw's avatar

Valhalla road is usually not that bad nowadays. It was much more drinking, fighting and dancing back in the 1980-ies.

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Alverant's avatar

An "open forum" closed when an unpopular group gets equal treatment. Big surprise.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

It’s not free speech if it doesn’t protect speech the government doesn’t like.

β€œThe city’s flag policy was pretty broad, open to β€œany person, group, or organization that promotes benevolence, tolerance, and diversity.””

Had the mayor actually researched The Satanic Temple, he would have seen that they embody these values. But what he most likely did was get some busy body Christian (who clearly doesn’t promote benevolence, tolerance, and diversity) to tell him about the TST. There were also, probably, threats leading up to the policy change. And if not, the city knew they would come if they did nothing and allow the flag to fly the whole month without comment.

Leaving the Decalogue up while removing the open forum is a choice. It screams what we all here know. Christianity is privileged in this town.

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dammit barry's avatar

Their book demands the murder of anyone that disagrees with them. We saw this in their witch hunts, star courts, inquisitions,and their maltreatment of Jews over centuries. In WWII the church had NO argument against Nazism because of this. Adolf used this history plus records of priestly rape of kids to silence the kkkatlik "church."

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I suspect that, as it comes to TST, it's a knee-jerk reaction. "Satan?!?" EEEEK! Take it down, get it away, KILL IT WITH FIRE!

Rational or critical thinking is NOT happening here ... but you knew that!

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Sorin Malcontent's avatar

He requested more information from me which I sent in kind fully detailing how TST matches the 3-point litmus test

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Joe King's avatar

𝑂𝑛𝑒 𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑦 π‘π‘œπ‘’π‘›π‘π‘–π‘™ π‘šπ‘’π‘šπ‘π‘’π‘Ÿ 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛 π‘›π‘œπ‘‘π‘’π‘‘ π‘‘β„Žπ‘Žπ‘‘ π‘‘β„Žπ‘’ 𝑛𝑒𝑀 π‘Ÿπ‘’π‘™π‘’π‘  π‘π‘Ÿπ‘’π‘£π‘’π‘›π‘‘ β€œπ‘ π‘‘π‘Ÿπ‘Žπ‘›π‘”π‘’β€ π‘œπ‘Ÿ β€œπ‘œπ‘‘π‘‘π‘π‘Žπ‘™π‘™β€ π‘”π‘Ÿπ‘œπ‘’π‘π‘  π‘“π‘Ÿπ‘œπ‘š π‘šπ‘Žπ‘˜π‘–π‘›π‘” π‘‘β„Žπ‘’ 𝑐𝑖𝑑𝑦 𝑝𝑒𝑑 𝑒𝑝 π‘‘β„Žπ‘’π‘–π‘Ÿ π‘ π‘¦π‘šπ‘π‘œπ‘™π‘ . π‘†β„Žπ‘’ π‘œπ‘“π‘“π‘’π‘Ÿπ‘’π‘‘ π‘›π‘œ 𝑠𝑝𝑒𝑐𝑖𝑓𝑖𝑐 𝑒π‘₯π‘Žπ‘šπ‘π‘™π‘’π‘ .

We know the example. They don't mind a flag honoring indigenous people because thae average person wouldn't think it goes against Christianity. But the Satanic flag? Well, that will make the local churches mad.

It makes one wonder how the town would have reacted to religious iconography connected to other nonchristian religions.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Fly an Islamic flag with "Allahu Akbar" in Arabic on it, and watch how fast they scream to take it down!

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

"any person, group, or organization that promotes benevolence, tolerance, and diversity".

Monotheism is the antithesis of diversity.

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Straw's avatar

Absolutely. I noticed that when we refused to baptise our kids. Two weird relatives told us the kids would end up in Hell. We told them that Hell in TrΓΈndelag is a really nice place.

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

I would have loved to see their faces 🀣🀣🀣

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Considering that they want EVERYONE to agree with THEIR belief system and they are intolerant of other beliefs or points of view, not just yes, but HELL, YES!

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dammit barry's avatar

Nature makes man wonderfully diverse. Dictator gods demand everyone be identical.

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Joe King's avatar

You would think they would like a flag that proclaims "God is great" no matter what language it is.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

And most of them have no idea that Yahweh of the bible and Allah of the Quran ARE THE SAME STUPID GOD!!!

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dammit barry's avatar

They cannot comprehend others having other gods..

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Or worse: not having ANY GODS. 😱

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XJC's avatar

Because God needs advertising and must be believed in order to be real to his Billions of adherents.

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JerryBier's avatar

The bigots are at it again β€” with their lack of understanding about equal rights and freedom of speech…

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Mostly, they think "freedom of speech" means freedom of THEIR speech ... and everyone else can go fish.

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Claudia's avatar

This has made me think of the movement around here, which is trying to yank the UK out of the ECHR. (European Convention of Human Rights). As far as I can gather, the people behind the movement are doing this because they want to be beastly to other people. Without apparently realising that when other people lose their rights, then their own rights are on a shoogly peg.

It is - or at least it used to be - considered that it is sign of progress that the law, any law applies to everyone equally, β€˜without fear of favour’ as the line goes. But it really seems that we have left that concept behind, people (some people) really seem to be in favour of arbitrary government. I assume that they are convinced that they will (always) be on the favoured side. Personally I think that they are blind to the danger that the arbitraryness of government could very easily change to their disadvantage.

That little poem β€˜first they came for …’ has become so widespread and well known for a reason!!

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Kukaan Ei MissÀÀn's avatar

"This has made me think of the movement around here, which is trying to yank the UK out of the ECHR. (European Convention of Human Rights). "

With nary a mention of what rights the convention espouses. It would seem that the right-wing and ultra-right-wing parties don't want you to know that it includes the right to life, the right not to be tortured, the right of free assembly, the right to a free trial and the right to freedom of expression amongst others.

Given the whining about censorship and cancel culture of the right, you would think the right would be all in favour of it...

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Claudia's avatar

You’re absolutely correct.

Personally, I have come to really value the right to β€˜due process’. It doesn’t sound very sexy, but I really think it’s one of the more important rights. Because it protects against arbitrary government.

Which btw is a sign of authoritarianism. If government is based on the whims of the leader, then no-one has got any certainty, we all will (would) live in constant fear.

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Straw's avatar

I believe some people has an idea that "living in consrant fear" is a good thing as long as it doesn't apply to themselves. I also believ a big part of those people are very, very religious.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

A "shoogly peg!" That was a new one on me, had to Google it. Thanks for sharing it!

It's genuinely scary that there are people who want to insist on "rights for me, but not for thee." I wonder if they realize that, allowed to go to its logical conclusion, there will be rights for next to NO ONE.

Sadly, this kind doesn't care for thinking much.

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dammit barry's avatar

BOTH rights are antithetical to their gods of dictatorship.

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wreck's avatar

"The city’s flag policy was pretty broad, open to β€œany person, group, or organization that promotes benevolence, tolerance, and diversity.”"

That sounds illegal in MAGAmerica. No wonder they changed it.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

OT

MAGAT p-ass-tor Joel Webbon tells Trump to round up all his enemies and prosecute them for treason

youtu.be/Rw-yaai6XFo

How long before Webbon is arrested for molestation/rape of children and/or creation/possession/distribution of child porn?

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dammit barry's avatar

He did this so dumpy will pardon him when he is convicted of kiddie rape.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Bingo. One molester helping another molester escape justice.

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larry parker's avatar

I bet it happens on a day of the week that ends with y.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I wouldn't think we'd have that long to wait. The clock is ticking...

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Sarah Longstaff's avatar

"It’d be tough to have it removed at this point given the legal environment." Where's a drunk driver when you need one?

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Black Hole and DM mourner's avatar

Let's wait to see if they actually remove the 10cs monument. Independently of being religious, one of the commandments "not having others gods before me" was explicitly interpreted as "not having other gods" for millennia. That's not tolerance and diversity.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

I'd just about bet you a cup of your favorite beverage that the 10Cs won't come down until someone – think FFRF or Americans United – force the issue. This town has Christian privilege on the brain, and until they recognize their bias (probably by getting their nose rubbed in it in court!), nothing will change.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

And when the xtians do try to fight it being removed, they will doubtless try to drag out that logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad antiquitatem.

FFRF/AU should have THAT one shot down in flames.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Utterly agreed. It pissed me off when that was essentially the excuse used in the Bladensburg Cross business! 😝

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NOGODZ20's avatar

An xtian symbol that was determined not to be an xtian symbol. How they twisted themselves like Rubik’s Cubes to argue THAT one.

OK, if it’s NOT an xtian symbol then xtians shouldn’t have any trouble with it being removed (cue sounds of xtians screaming).

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

"Rubik's Cube," nutz! More like a Klein bottle!

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XJC's avatar

See my comment. FRFF won't do Jack Shitarelli about it.

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NOGODZ20's avatar

That monument is an outrageous violation of the 2nd Commandment.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

AND the First Amendment!

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NOGODZ20's avatar

Not to mention Article XI of the Treaty With Tripoli.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

You betchum!

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XJC's avatar
3hEdited

Which is in god forsaken Libya where them damn Muzlins is.

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

No need for a lengthy comment today, I think, because you know what time it is here.

β€œ One response was that the Christian monument was part of the town’s β€œheritage” and not a promotion of religion.’’

Okeydokey. So first up: β€œ 1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have any other gods besides me.” Sure does sound like an endorsement or promotion of religion. We might even go so far as to call it a particular commandment from a particular version of a particular God.

Rad!

Second up, the Satanic response: β€œThat which will not bend must break, and that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spared its demise.” That turned out to be a prophecy. It looks like the truth did indeed destroy that premise. So they broke the ordinance and the public space.

And yet, no violence, no threats, nothing except a prophecy, which turned out to be true.

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Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz's avatar

"you know what time it is here"

Hammer Time?

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

Caffeine

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

How about the ever-lovin' Thing and...

https://ibb.co/nNNddhd7

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

But he is clearly fictional, unlike my awesome God. My awesome God doesn’t clobber, he Smites. That’s the difference

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

[TS smells a distinction without a difference...] πŸ‘ƒ

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Bensnewlogin's avatar

The details in the differences are what determine whether a God is a real God or a fake God. I thought you knew that.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

Real god? Fake god? Distinction? Difference? [chuckle]

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Maltnothops's avatar

That traffic island looks commodious enough to accommodate a monument with the Seven Fundamental Tenets.

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Val Uptuous NotAgain's avatar

Now it’s just a commode.

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Troublesh00ter's avatar

One hell of a lot better than those stupid 10Cs. 😝

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Maltnothops's avatar

β€œSore and malcontent”. Love it.

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