Honestly, I am growing increasingly sick and tired of these idiot-children who somehow get voted into one governmental office or another and attempt to push long-since-debunked creationist BS. Yeah, yeah, I know they're all over the place and they sound off without so much as a by-your-leave. What is encouraging here and there is that they are being called on their bullshit with increasing frequency. Indeed, I've seen Jamie Raskin do so on the floor of the US House on more than one occasion, and I suspect there are other such incidents which have not made it to my ears.
This is what needs to happen. When stupidity makes itself known in such venues, it needs to be called out and rebutted, boldly and without regard for the sensibilities of the bullshitter.
I grew up in family that was Baptist. At the age of ten I recognized the ignorance. Both Raskin and Moskowitz are both Jewish. I do not know if they are secular Jews but as I have said before, almost all my friends and lovers have been secular JEWS, FOR A LONG TIME. Throw in some recovering Catholics and that almost covers my circle. No matter what the religious background, if a person is a true believer then, I’m sorry, but I see this person as attempting to live the unexamined life.
Here is the reality, it is sooooooo much easier to be a True Believer than to examine one’s life. That is just how it is.
God gives us our rights. I mean just look in the bible. With in its pages you will find the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, the right to have a jury trial by your peers, the right to vote, the right to bear arms, and the prohibition of the government quartering troops in your home, and the right not to incriminate yourself. Sure, you'll have to write them in all yourself, because not a single right that is mention in the bill of rights is found anywhere in the bible. But once you write them in, you'll see that they are in the bible.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of creation myths found all over the world. Some of them far older than the Biblical account. In spite of the history, creationists act as if the Bible wins by default if evolution can just be challenged. It never seems to register that they have any obligation to prove their own point, and that attacking Darwin doesn't do that. They can't prove their point of course because there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. Creationism is a purely religious doctrine, and it is never the job of the public schools to backstop anybody's religion. It is an idea so out-dated it doesn't even belong in churches.
Ah! You even gave me the naked and I mistook that as an example. French cursing is so much classier, lol ( I figured out pute because in Spanish it’s puta)
The fact that this person believes in the supernatural, mythology, and superstition leads me to see that he is incompetent and not qualified to legislate.
What's even scarier (and a point I make frequently) is that they're elected by people who are equally "incompetent and not qualified to legislate" ... but they still have the vote.
OT - Ruh roh! From a letter to the editor in today's TBT
My wife was born and raised in South Dakota, where Kristi Noem, the woman who shot her unmanageable" dog, Cricket, is governor. We have been married for close to 40 years. Lately, she has been telling me that I am becoming "unmanageable. Being that my wife is from South Dakota,
(snore) How many times have you heard a Christian say this?
"You know, there's lots of scientific evidence that points to a Creator or God. And I'll just give you two."
Then follows a series of fallacious ARGUMENTS rather than evidence. This guy doesn't know the difference. In science, the best evidence is physical. You know, material. Made out of molecules. Arguments are what lawyers use when they don't have evidence supporting their case.
Mr. Greunhagen won his Senate seat by a 20% margin. So apparently the majority of people in his district are just as hard-working at their ignorance as he is. He's 72 years old, so that implies only slim hope for positive change.
"teach that we're founded as a God-given rights, constitutional Republic versus a mob democracy,"
There is nothing in Christianity, or the bible, that supports, condones, suggests or in any way resembles a constitutional Republic, or democracy. Everything from God's authority to divine rights of kings screams authoritarian dictatorship replete with fascism. So, no. Our country is not founded on any God-given anything, let alone rights or allowing the people to choose leaders to represent their interests. That's even before you analyze the constitution and search for religious ties, in the documents themselves and in the thoughts and leanings of the men who wrote them.
"One is the law of cause and effect. For every effect, there's a greater cause."
That is not the "law of cause and effect." "Greater" is not a part of the law. The Watchmaker Fallacy is idiotic and lazy. Not only does it fall into special pleading for your god, but it doesn't explain anything. (Did Hemant skip number two? He supposedly had two examples and I don't see two.) But, simply seeing things existing in the natural world is not the same as "That is a repeatable and… observable scientific fact." Observing a natural occurrence only proves that occurrence exists, the hows and whys are not explained.
The reason your myths aren't taught in science class is not because of censorship, it's because it isn't science. Same goes for the lies about the founding of our country, your myths are only a part of the founding of the USA as no-nos, not as inherent principles. It isn't censorship to teach our history without Barton's unsubstantiated and outright false history. His nonsense has been rejected even by your own community, and he does not have the qualifications to teach history to worms.
The Christian myth does get taught in schools in the proper context, as historical influence, in comparative religious classes, and too often as cultural significance through holidays and breaks. If you want your children to learn more about it, take them to one of the many churches, that outnumber schools and libraries. No one will stop you. But you don't get to force anyone else's kids into your delusions.
Creationists are also free to request/demand creationist elective courses be taught. They just need to fulfill the typical requirements for getting an elective course taught, which usually means a bunch of student/parent signatures >20-30 saying those kids would take the course, plus working with the school on the mechanics.
But they rarely to never pursue that avenue. Because while it meets their "say out loud" demand for creationism in school, it doesn't meet their "the silent part" desires. I.e. the desire to attach the credibility of science to their nonscientific idea, and the desire to force-proselytize nonbelievers by putting it in a class nonbelievers want to take.
How is “someone made the earth” repeatable? And who observed that?
As for book bans, I have multiple books on my classroom shelf that are on the district’s list of “challenged by parents” and effectively banned. I’ll take them with me when they fire me over it.
I continue to be amazed at people who want to ban (or burn!) books, failing to realize that books can be banned or burned 'til the heavens fall, but the IDEAS? They're still out there, and I've yet to encounter an idea that can somehow be destroyed by human or other action.
“We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail. He can be caught, he can be killed and forgotten, but 400 years later, an idea can still change the world.”
Because the Internet is the work of the devil don't you know. 🤣
It's like telling a kid not to smoke cigarettes, he immediately wants to try it to see what the big deal is - - they're just making the banned books more popular.
My dad was one of the first people to get HBO when it came out. Then when the American Gigolo movie came out he told me I wasn't allowed to watch it........ naturally it piqued my interest, so I waited for him to go to work and then I watched it as a 10 year old. Had he told me it was a terrible movie about religion, I never would have paid attention. Haha
Sadly, if the internet were forever, all the work and writing I did on Atheist Nexus would still be available to me. I'm just glad I archived a great deal of what I wrote on my home machine ... which I back up FREQUENTLY! 👌
““One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.”
Whatever you say Senator Glenn H.Gruenhagen. Really the creation myth Must be taught in science classes? Okay which creation myth? The Native American Creation Myths? The Muslim Creation Myths? How about Chinese Creation Myths? All of those are equal to the Biblical Creation Myth. Glenn you hear that? It's your mommy calling you in for a nap. Really and a diaper change
Oh no, that wouldn’t do. Those other stories? The words of heathens. Never mind that peoples of disparate regions of the earth, from ages before and after the “Biblical age” crafted similar tales to explain the origins of the universe and man. Sadly, Senator G would call his version Gospel truth, while sneering down at the oversimplification of matters by those who simply don’t know better.
I definetly meant not to disrespect anybody there must be 100s of Creation myths amongst the Native American peoples. All of them are valid all of them have significance.
Xtian churches are full of censorship. Not a single one of the local churches teaches that the universe was created by an invisible imaginary pink dragon named Fluffy. Even though the evidence right there in bible. It you take the number of words in genesis and divide by the sum of the apples in the garden of Eden and subtract the square root of sin you get 'Fluffy did it.'. But the evils of 'Big Bible' wanna hide this.
Honestly, I am growing increasingly sick and tired of these idiot-children who somehow get voted into one governmental office or another and attempt to push long-since-debunked creationist BS. Yeah, yeah, I know they're all over the place and they sound off without so much as a by-your-leave. What is encouraging here and there is that they are being called on their bullshit with increasing frequency. Indeed, I've seen Jamie Raskin do so on the floor of the US House on more than one occasion, and I suspect there are other such incidents which have not made it to my ears.
This is what needs to happen. When stupidity makes itself known in such venues, it needs to be called out and rebutted, boldly and without regard for the sensibilities of the bullshitter.
Jamie Raskin and Jared Moskowitz are heroes to me.
There are more than a few Democratic flamethrowers in the US House and Senate these days, and I am VERY glad of their presence!
I grew up in family that was Baptist. At the age of ten I recognized the ignorance. Both Raskin and Moskowitz are both Jewish. I do not know if they are secular Jews but as I have said before, almost all my friends and lovers have been secular JEWS, FOR A LONG TIME. Throw in some recovering Catholics and that almost covers my circle. No matter what the religious background, if a person is a true believer then, I’m sorry, but I see this person as attempting to live the unexamined life.
Here is the reality, it is sooooooo much easier to be a True Believer than to examine one’s life. That is just how it is.
Bulldshitter who doesn't respect other opinions anyway.
True ... but if the bullshitter catches enough flak from enough different directions, he or she may rethink their strategy ... MAYBE.
Two letters. DG.
Okay, I'll bite. DG?
david graf.
Oh ... 🤢🤮
Not a chance.
Cool so every church engages in censorship by not teaching about Flying Spaghetti Monster. Close them all.
Next argument?
My religion is better than your actual facts? My religion is real, all the others are imposters? 🙄😂
Don't argue religious rights with Pastafarians ever. :p
RAMEN!
Sauce be upon him.
Noodly be His body
Saucy be His blood
R'amen!
May you be touched by his noodly apendage.
Lol, I wouldn’t dream of it.
👏👏👏👏
God gives us our rights. I mean just look in the bible. With in its pages you will find the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, the right to have a jury trial by your peers, the right to vote, the right to bear arms, and the prohibition of the government quartering troops in your home, and the right not to incriminate yourself. Sure, you'll have to write them in all yourself, because not a single right that is mention in the bill of rights is found anywhere in the bible. But once you write them in, you'll see that they are in the bible.
Especially all the rights that were given to women in the OT.
I know, if you just ignore literally every single word in the OT, the OT is the quintessential feminist tome.
Isn't there a woman amongst the judges ?
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/deborah-bible
Aileen Canon?
I said a woman, not a brainless puppet 😝
Trump likes 'em brainless like hiim.
To shut up and obey is still a right.
Those are in the Trump Bible! Checkmate, atheists!
/s for those who need it
"[Book of] Armaments, Chapter Two, Verses Nine to Twenty-One..."
Heretic ! The saint drumpster babble can't have more than 10 verses in each chapter since he can't see his toes.
11 if it's warm. Although that verse from what I heard would be short and mushroom-shaped and smell vaguely of honey-mustard pretzels.
Dommage que drumpster n'ait pas pu semer Madame Daniels.
Paul's letter to the Ammosexuals.
Senator, You keep using the word “science.” I do not think it means what you think it means. - Inigo
🤣
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of creation myths found all over the world. Some of them far older than the Biblical account. In spite of the history, creationists act as if the Bible wins by default if evolution can just be challenged. It never seems to register that they have any obligation to prove their own point, and that attacking Darwin doesn't do that. They can't prove their point of course because there isn't a shred of evidence to support it. Creationism is a purely religious doctrine, and it is never the job of the public schools to backstop anybody's religion. It is an idea so out-dated it doesn't even belong in churches.
Here is a list of myths to choose from: https://www.ranker.com/list/weird-creation-myths/edira-putri
No Great Green Arkleseizure?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_characters#Great_Green_Arkleseizure
As predicted by the oracle Nostrildamus.
Perhaps we should make a religion out of that!
The Siberian chamanism creation myth is somehow familiar 🤣
Like a headline from The Onion and my fav too.
Ok, Mister. The failed mage, the witches, Lorenzo de Medici 2.0 or the watch ? :)
I would recommend Joseph Campbell's 'Primitive Mythology' as well.
My favorite is Mbombo who barfed the earth into existence.
I like this one better:
https://youtu.be/l4Wbb1cqubo
Their notion of proof goes something like this: The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it." Sound reasoning isn't about to get in their way.
I have seen that arument used, and the person saying it is always extremely proud of themselves.
I believe William Jennings Bryant made a similar statement during the Scopes trial. Funny how not much has changed in nearly a century.
It worked when their pastor barked it at them, so...
Yep..... That statement is still preached within the Christian Nationalist churches and from the CN parents to their kids.
𝐴𝑛𝑜𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝑎𝑟𝑒𝑎 𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑛 𝑠𝑐𝑖𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒. 𝐼 𝑓𝑖𝑛𝑑 𝑎 𝑙𝑜𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑐𝑒𝑛𝑠𝑜𝑟𝑠ℎ𝑖𝑝, 𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑠, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑑𝑒𝑐𝑒𝑖𝑡. 𝑌𝑜𝑢 𝑘𝑛𝑜𝑤, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒'𝑠 𝑙𝑜𝑡𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑠𝑐𝑖𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑓𝑖𝑐 𝑒𝑣𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑝𝑜𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑎 𝐶𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡𝑜𝑟 𝑜𝑟 𝐺𝑜𝑑.
Oh, REALLY? Gee whiz, I hadn't heard that one before. Okay, Senator Gruenhagen. I have a very simple question for you:
Outside of the bible, 𝗪𝗛𝗘𝗥𝗘 𝗜𝗦 𝗧𝗛𝗜𝗦 𝗦𝗢-𝗖𝗔𝗟𝗟𝗘𝗗 𝗘𝗩𝗜𝗗𝗘𝗡𝗖𝗘???
French usually say "Dans ton cul" for this kind of bullshit.
Well put.
Bien dit!
I learn so much good stuff from you!
That's nothing. What do you think of "Ta mère la pute à oilpé* !" ?
*Verlan, a particular kind of slang where syllables are reversed. You would say "kedna" (or any slang equivalent of your choice).
Lol, “your mother the whore in hell”?
"Your mother the butt naked whore".
my translate said she was an oily whore.
Ah! You even gave me the naked and I mistook that as an example. French cursing is so much classier, lol ( I figured out pute because in Spanish it’s puta)
He should demonstrate that claim, and go collect his Nobel Prize.
Or shut the fuck up and collect his booby prize.
Maths Nobel Prize ?
Funny how Gruenhagen's response on the evidence thing sounds exactly like crickets chirping.
And where's the evidence that it's HIS version of creator/god as opposed to the thousands of others?
Well, ehrmph, okay, HE say it is so. What more proof do you need? Hæh, hæh?
The fact that this person believes in the supernatural, mythology, and superstition leads me to see that he is incompetent and not qualified to legislate.
What's even scarier (and a point I make frequently) is that they're elected by people who are equally "incompetent and not qualified to legislate" ... but they still have the vote.
Except that is exactly what they (christo-fascist) would say about all of us......lol.
"The wheels on the bus go round and round round and round"
Maybe he's positioning himself for a job in the event that the orange turd is elected.
OT - Ruh roh! From a letter to the editor in today's TBT
My wife was born and raised in South Dakota, where Kristi Noem, the woman who shot her unmanageable" dog, Cricket, is governor. We have been married for close to 40 years. Lately, she has been telling me that I am becoming "unmanageable. Being that my wife is from South Dakota,
should I be concerned?
Stay out of gravel pits.
Stolen! But I upvoted it cuz I got manners and shit.
https://www.goudurix.com/en/kevlar-cap-beanie/
(snore) How many times have you heard a Christian say this?
"You know, there's lots of scientific evidence that points to a Creator or God. And I'll just give you two."
Then follows a series of fallacious ARGUMENTS rather than evidence. This guy doesn't know the difference. In science, the best evidence is physical. You know, material. Made out of molecules. Arguments are what lawyers use when they don't have evidence supporting their case.
Mr. Greunhagen won his Senate seat by a 20% margin. So apparently the majority of people in his district are just as hard-working at their ignorance as he is. He's 72 years old, so that implies only slim hope for positive change.
Most of the time their “evidence” is just Bible quotes.
Tell them their book is a claim. Just like the Qur'an, the Tanakh and the Bhagavad Gita are claims. None of them are evidence.
"teach that we're founded as a God-given rights, constitutional Republic versus a mob democracy,"
There is nothing in Christianity, or the bible, that supports, condones, suggests or in any way resembles a constitutional Republic, or democracy. Everything from God's authority to divine rights of kings screams authoritarian dictatorship replete with fascism. So, no. Our country is not founded on any God-given anything, let alone rights or allowing the people to choose leaders to represent their interests. That's even before you analyze the constitution and search for religious ties, in the documents themselves and in the thoughts and leanings of the men who wrote them.
"One is the law of cause and effect. For every effect, there's a greater cause."
That is not the "law of cause and effect." "Greater" is not a part of the law. The Watchmaker Fallacy is idiotic and lazy. Not only does it fall into special pleading for your god, but it doesn't explain anything. (Did Hemant skip number two? He supposedly had two examples and I don't see two.) But, simply seeing things existing in the natural world is not the same as "That is a repeatable and… observable scientific fact." Observing a natural occurrence only proves that occurrence exists, the hows and whys are not explained.
The reason your myths aren't taught in science class is not because of censorship, it's because it isn't science. Same goes for the lies about the founding of our country, your myths are only a part of the founding of the USA as no-nos, not as inherent principles. It isn't censorship to teach our history without Barton's unsubstantiated and outright false history. His nonsense has been rejected even by your own community, and he does not have the qualifications to teach history to worms.
The Christian myth does get taught in schools in the proper context, as historical influence, in comparative religious classes, and too often as cultural significance through holidays and breaks. If you want your children to learn more about it, take them to one of the many churches, that outnumber schools and libraries. No one will stop you. But you don't get to force anyone else's kids into your delusions.
𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑊𝑎𝑡𝑐ℎ𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑒𝑟 𝐹𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑎𝑐𝑦 𝑖𝑠 𝑖𝑑𝑖𝑜𝑡𝑖𝑐 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑙𝑎𝑧𝑦.
Ummm, Senator Gruenhagen? You're being paged.
🎯👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Creationists are also free to request/demand creationist elective courses be taught. They just need to fulfill the typical requirements for getting an elective course taught, which usually means a bunch of student/parent signatures >20-30 saying those kids would take the course, plus working with the school on the mechanics.
But they rarely to never pursue that avenue. Because while it meets their "say out loud" demand for creationism in school, it doesn't meet their "the silent part" desires. I.e. the desire to attach the credibility of science to their nonscientific idea, and the desire to force-proselytize nonbelievers by putting it in a class nonbelievers want to take.
How is “someone made the earth” repeatable? And who observed that?
As for book bans, I have multiple books on my classroom shelf that are on the district’s list of “challenged by parents” and effectively banned. I’ll take them with me when they fire me over it.
I continue to be amazed at people who want to ban (or burn!) books, failing to realize that books can be banned or burned 'til the heavens fall, but the IDEAS? They're still out there, and I've yet to encounter an idea that can somehow be destroyed by human or other action.
“We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail. He can be caught, he can be killed and forgotten, but 400 years later, an idea can still change the world.”
The internet is forever. And online books are a thing they don't seem to know about.
Because the Internet is the work of the devil don't you know. 🤣
It's like telling a kid not to smoke cigarettes, he immediately wants to try it to see what the big deal is - - they're just making the banned books more popular.
My dad was one of the first people to get HBO when it came out. Then when the American Gigolo movie came out he told me I wasn't allowed to watch it........ naturally it piqued my interest, so I waited for him to go to work and then I watched it as a 10 year old. Had he told me it was a terrible movie about religion, I never would have paid attention. Haha
Obligatory.
https://youtu.be/StKVS0eI85I
Sadly, if the internet were forever, all the work and writing I did on Atheist Nexus would still be available to me. I'm just glad I archived a great deal of what I wrote on my home machine ... which I back up FREQUENTLY! 👌
That and🏴☠️
The Great Flood. Rinse and repeat. ; )
No repeat: JHWH promised not to flood the world again. Fire, though.......
“Fire bad!” - Frankenstein’s monster.
““One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.”
-Carl Sagan
Whatever you say Senator Glenn H.Gruenhagen. Really the creation myth Must be taught in science classes? Okay which creation myth? The Native American Creation Myths? The Muslim Creation Myths? How about Chinese Creation Myths? All of those are equal to the Biblical Creation Myth. Glenn you hear that? It's your mommy calling you in for a nap. Really and a diaper change
Big turtle and four elephants hold up the earth...
What about the Fifth Elephant? TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!!!
I like that one. A big turtle and 4 elephants. I always felt close to them. Now I feel a little closer.
We all know that. The waterfall is lovely.
Go read Bill Wilson's link about creation myths. You will have a good laugh.
Oh no, that wouldn’t do. Those other stories? The words of heathens. Never mind that peoples of disparate regions of the earth, from ages before and after the “Biblical age” crafted similar tales to explain the origins of the universe and man. Sadly, Senator G would call his version Gospel truth, while sneering down at the oversimplification of matters by those who simply don’t know better.
Put me down for Elder Edda
LIMERICK OF THE VIKINGS
By Clancy O’Lafferty
Now the Vikings set forth
from the cold bitter north
And they never ken where they was goin’.
The witch threw down runes and they sang Viking tunes
And the wind took ‘em where he was blowin’
With their square sails unfurled,
“To the edge of the world!”
Was their shout and a few screams to Odin
Young Eric was brave, you’ve been led to believe,
and never a weak nerve he showed ‘em.
The wind blowed in force,
and he blowed him off course
Clear to Newfie land, truth now he owes ya,
That dragons’ hot breath and the edge of earth
Were a cake walk compared to his “Olga!”
While I agree with you, and am no expert on Native American culture, I'm pretty sure that there's more than one creation myth between all the tribes.
I definetly meant not to disrespect anybody there must be 100s of Creation myths amongst the Native American peoples. All of them are valid all of them have significance.
Don’t worry about it, I just realized I did it myself when I used the singular culture.
I am all for Min's creation myth 😁
It's a two for one.
Again, my favorite is Mbombo who barfed the earth into existence.
Humanity is the chunks of corn in there...
Remind me not to eat what he ate.
he should have abstained from fatty food. Poor diet (and probably a skunked Colt 45)
But can he teach sex education ?
Xtian churches are full of censorship. Not a single one of the local churches teaches that the universe was created by an invisible imaginary pink dragon named Fluffy. Even though the evidence right there in bible. It you take the number of words in genesis and divide by the sum of the apples in the garden of Eden and subtract the square root of sin you get 'Fluffy did it.'. But the evils of 'Big Bible' wanna hide this.
Hey, it's Fluffy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2zeUivkBr4
https://alnasiry.net/forums/uploaded/272_01375182088.jpg
Calculus was a long time ago, and unlike Algebra, I don't use it several times a week.
I tried looking it up but the results didn't help any. Maybe it's just the square root of sin bit.....?
I can’t remember how to get the antiderivative of sin(x)**0.5
A derivative of sin is often a very enjoyable time.
I googled "square root of sin" and that turned up. That's all I know. : )
Educators want to keep pseudoscience out of science class and pseudohistory out of history class? How scandalous!
And yeah, it's ridiculous that Gruenhagen is just parroting arguments in favor of creationism/ID that were addressed and discounted years ago.
Decades ago.
And when my kid is grown, he'll be able to complain that US schools are dealing with creationist arguments debunked centuries (plural) ago!
And keep Su-sussudio out of music class!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wv4yTSFlHI
"You know, there's lots of scientific evidence that points to a Creator or God."
Tell me you don't understand what science is without telling me you don't understand what science is.